I have hope in the fandom~ In the movie though? No, but I won't be watching it anyway.

The 'thugification' of black young men is probably the new slur of the age--the new n word. Even our most gruesome murderers are not supposed to be shot on site. A police officer killed a man. The focus should be on him, but what I have noticed is that whenever we're talking about whether or not he did it, we're trying to discredit the victim. The racism and social political climate is evident that we can't talk about this case where a cop shot a young man. The issues of power and race are linked together because of a history. This doesn't come out of nowhere. 

The burden of proof does lie on the accusarer, not the defence, so I understand they need to establish whether or not the guilt is there. However, when there is a murder case regardless of the occupation of the accused, I would assume that the evidence would not be based on the perceived character of the victim, but by the events that transpired. The fact that this was six shots, that it was reported that the victim had his hands up--that's everything for the court to decide. What is not for us to decide was whether he 'deserved' it or not, because he didn't. We don't give power to our cops to arbitrarily decide who deserves to die or not. That should not be ever, at all in our dialogue of this discussion. It is whether or not the officer in question is guilty.

The people of Ferguson are angry at what they perceive to be a miscarriage of justice. The community is angry, and the more I see discussions like this that vilify Micheal Brown, the more I believe that they have every right to be--because as a white woman I don't know what it is like to live in a climate where you feel at odds with the police; the people that I feel are here to protect me. When I see a police officer, I feel safe. I can also believe that these grievances are legitimate, because I've seen something of this vein before.

Women face issues like this when it comes to rape. The sexual history, from what she was wearing, doing at the time, and all centred around how she may have given any indication that she was on board with what happened to her. If this can happen to women; if there can be a climate where I feel unsafe walking at night or being told by my parents when and where to go--the dangers of leaving a drink unattended, I can certainly imagine that maybe the people of Ferguson, that black men and women have similar dialogues in regards to their relationship with the police. Because of this, I believe that it is imperative that we are critical and open to understanding what is going on in this community. That's on the side of protests and social justice dialogue.

"Just shut up and let me talk for three hours. Everything will be on the exam, including stuff I don't go over in lecture. If you have questions then you're stupid and don't deserve to be here."

World's Worst Bartender 

I've disliked Hinata for a long time. Honestly, if it wasn't for her fans I would have written her off as just uninteresting and pairing fodder, but her popularity made me really question the content surrounding her and it's coloured my feelings toward her ever since. I realized early on that characteristics that are often attributed to her (kindness, compassion, sweetness, etc) have no evidence in the manga. Where even someone like Tenten has a panel expressing her concern over Ino, Hinata never shows anything to anyone outside of Naruto. Naruto-kun is her unyielding mantra and for the author, that was apparently enough for her to be the intended love interest. It's quite sickening really. Women must be 100% devoted to their lovers. Sakura may have had her ups and downs, but she had a network of relationships outside of Sasuke. Her motivations were centred around two guys, yes, but even the way that was framed showed sincere compassion for the well-being of people she cared about--whereas Hinata famously seems to be primarily concerned with how Naruto makes HER feel, rather than what he would need. In the span of 700 chapters she's done...two things for him? 

She has a really unhealthy mindset. She's a one-note character and even if I may dislike Karin, at least she had her moments--mostly centred around the time Sasuke stabbed her but still! Hinata has no depth of character and it's made me question the reading comprehension of the masses when people praise her. It's one thing to like somebody on superficial means; it's another to laud them as heroine-worthy when they're hardly worthy of being considered a 'character'. 

I never wanted to see Sakura be a reward for Naruto because this is his story. I'm not disappointed that Naruto didn't get with Sakura because that's what he wanted and after everything he deserves it--I'm disappointed for Naruto because he ended up with somebody that hardly has any motivation outside him, isn't a very compelling character compared to him, and he's had no development with her outside a few scenes. It's a bland, unsatisfying match up and it makes me upset because it's not just a matter of HE WANTED Sakura, it's also that their relationship was overall BETTER and for me as a reader... Naruto feels so much more ALIVE and HAPPY when he's with Sakura. It's that mutual development that I wanted. Yes, him being with Hinata is not as obviously problematic, but it's boring and lacklustre which is not what I wanted for our main character.

If Kishimoto said, "I was thinking between Sakura and Hinata for Naruto but then realized, he's a guy, chasing after Sakura is tiring and Hinata makes a better housewife," that would be more making gendered assumptions on behalf of Naruto--implying that 1) guys are goal oriented and chase after women as they do their prey and when he realized Sakura was not suitable he went for an easier target and 2) that what he's looking for is a housewife and not a partner that he sincerely has invested feelings for because LOLOL GUYS DON'T HAVE FEELINGS THEY JUST WANT FOOD AND LAUNDRY DONE.

Sexism hurts all parties; it's a limiting factor and look at what it's done to a 15 year manga in the making--one we all love. Both characters put in disatisfying relationships on some bogus notion that love should be enduring. We talk about Sakura, but look at who Naruto got with--Kishimoto implies his happiness lies with someone who never gave up on loving him despite not really developing a relationship with him. We've never seen how they get on just as people and friends. It's so boring.

Also to some people who comment about feminism 

I like how we talk about genetics meanwhile the mother has PINK HAIR. XD It's as you like it, silly bunnies. I do have a preference for green eyes so I'm all for Shinachiku having them. Also my headcanon for a girl was that she'd be named Momo or 'Peach' because pink and orange make that colour. 

I never expected Naruto to 'endure' Sakura because that would be stupid. I thought it was because he loved her and she didn't give him a reason to question that. He didn't pursue her when he thought she was in love with someone else, which is a GOOD THING. The whole Nice Guy philosophy is that men are entitled to the love of a woman as long as they do nice things for her. He did it because he's a legit nice guy, with no motive to claim her love for his own. Except, there were times where she was reciprocating, and we were looking forward to what looked like an awesome relationship. That he decided on Hinata isn't crazy, it's just super lame from a story-telling POV because that relationship was terribly undeveloped.

THIS reasoning however is incredibly problematic. What man thinks a woman is horrible if she falls out of love with a guy who hardly gives her anything? I admit, those "Kishimoto is sexist" rants are starting to hold a lot of water...

That sounds great Trixie~ I think those make for the happiest, most satisfying endings imo. Anything that has a shred of the epilogue carries some bitterness for me. It's still fascinating to read the fics that try to work with it, especially if they do it well. Fanart too--one piece that resonates with me is LadyGT's image here  that speaks to just Naruto's suffering in living up to the man he is/was and that he might still be a good father, husband, and he may not have a drinking problem, but when he sits down by himself in quiet contemplation it's like, damn. Also kudos to her making his new hairstyle actually look good on him. XD Maybe from that angle. 

So in lieu of this terrible ending emerges certain headcanons and stories about what Naruto is moving forward from the epilogue. I've seen stories with affairs, with alcohol abuse, with parental abandonment/neglect and over-all unhappiness. I don't think I feel any which way about these themes, because I think in some respects it reflects the unhappiness of the fans and how... out of character this version of Naruto feels that they attribute themes related to adult despair. I don't think any fix-it fic should involve any of these, since even if it's Sasuke and Hinata I don't really condone--or think the characters should cheat on their spouses, but as a topic to explore in fiction or an alternative interpretation of the epilogues characters it's viable?

There is certainly this... bittersweet element in the canon where not everything is idyllic. The world is changing and the ninja lifestyle is dying out for our heroes, the children have absent fathers who are too busy to be around, and our main character has lost some of his charm--heck, a lot of the characters have. One way of putting it is that this is the more 'realistic' ending where growing up means letting go of some of the things, and facing challenges of responsibility, a changing society and family. If we're considering that this was a sincere ending that Kishimoto intended (however bad it might be) then I don't think that the canon supports that Naruto is that unhappy with his life. Maybe he does love his wife, his children, and he's just struggling to balance it all. Maybe this element of Naruto is inspired by how Kishimoto himself might feel with his obligations as a mangaka and obligations as a father. 

For me, acknowledging that it's a terrible ending, and reconciling what the author might have wanted to say with it can be a bit tricky. I find greater enjoyment in creating my own endings, some of which completely disregard the last two chapters, and there is some feeling of vindication in the unhappily ever after scenarios of the epilogue that highlight some of its problematic...ness... So I suppose what I'm trying to say is I'm juggling multiple scenarios and trying to distinguish what is a rewrite, what is a twisting of canon, and what is true to canon. 

I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are on different takes of the ending? What elements of "ever after" fiction do you enjoy? Are you more in the camp where you just want nothing to do with the ending and go for NaruSaku from the get-go? Do you work within the realms of the epilogue but have your own character interpretations--and if so, what themes are you comfortable with and what would you prefer to avoid (if anything)? I hope I'm making sense as I pose my questions XD

For myself, I'm still not sure. Like I said earlier, I think as a 'fix it fic' where an author tries to offer a 'better' solution to the manga, I don't like the idea that it would include cheating. More of an inner-turmoil and dissatisfaction leads to characters making honest decisions moving forward kind of thing for me. It's still a bitter pill to swallow because as much as I hate those poorly designed children, I don't want to see a Naruto that would hurt them, and divorces are messy...though they do fit with reality. I think that's kind of what I DIDN'T want from this manga. I wanted to see the characters happy. Sure, it doesn't have to be perfect, but I wanted some togetherness and not just hey look--children! No, I don't care that a movie will be filling in that hole. 

Sasuke is more heroic than Naruto? Not in my interpretation he isn't. The hero and heroine were supposed to be Naruto and Sakura, just like how this whole manga was supposed to have a good story and whatnot. Just because the two weren't great at their roles, doesn't mean that others were better. Neither Hinata nor Sasuke make a better hero. The entire story just became a mess, and I held out hoping that the end would be worth it but I was... deeply surprised. Sakura's handling doesn't make sense to us because she had a shred of heroine material beforehand. I found stuff I liked about her, and I was disappointed in various parts of the manga because I felt it didn't hold up and then of course that stupid ending. If Sakura wasn't the heroine, I wouldn't have expected her to act like one. She's proven to me she can be, but the whims of the writer are like the autumn sky. 

Very well edited! <3 I like it quite a lot. It's sad but I suppose some love is tragic that way.

https://www.fanficti...al-Strawberries <<<<That should be it





 

 

dear god plz link

...Kami-sama? =O

I want to write a one-shot InoSaku fic, and am interested in taking prompts from you lovelies n.n 

It's weird that I found solace in how BAD it is, that I can't imagine that this was what was intended all along. Whenever someone says that NaruSaku fans were delusional, I look to the crappy ending and think 'really'? It's like okay, you can have this ending, and I'll just be here imagining a better one and ignoring yours. It's such a cop out that I can't take it seriously. You can only question 'why' at this point and then move on. It isn't me and my failure to understand Naruto, it's the author's failure to deliver, and nothing spells that out more than this awkward, pathetic ending. 

So at some point I just did move on and stopped being upset. It's a ridiculous ending and if there was something I could do about it, I would, but I know I can't. So I discuss with others who feel the same and we come to similar conclusions. Sometimes I read what people who like it have to say, but I just can't agree though good for them I suppose. 

The OP didn't exactly provide any compelling links or arguments that this was happening--now that there's this controversial ending out I'm suspicious of any so called information about the reactions or 'behind-the-scenes' reasons/conspiracies without something resembling a solid case for it. 

I'm never in the party that you HAVE to appreciate work that an author puts out. You can judge a medium as you so fit, and an author is the one that can be grateful to have his livelihood based on his fans enjoying his work. It's a reciprocal relationship and I know, fans can be a nightmare, but this doesn't mean because some people's expectations are crazy that every other fan must submit to any written work. We have opinions. If we didn't, we wouldn't debate on forums. So I get really annoyed when someone makes the argument we have to take what we can get. I'm not a passive reader. 

I don't have a problem with the idea then that we can voice our discontent, it's just about making sure it's peaceful and not aimed at hurting others, but trying to focus on the issue. I don't go out and attack NaruHina/SasuSaku shippers, I just ignore them, and I would certainly never go out and threaten the lives of others in any way. A couple of people standing around with signs where they think Kishimoto might see, okay, it's not exactly a mature response (and if the 'other side' of this pairing war would do it we'd call them pathetic) but if it remains just that, a small-scale protest that's not something to get up-in-arms over.

A riot is a different matter entirely. Extreme reactions, even to some causes that are worthier for one, are never good. They get negative attention and people get hurt. So I'm not like some people who complain about this generation not being happy with what they get (rolls eyes) but I don't condone violence either. I do hope that fans do complain about this ending. It grates at me when problematic media just goes unaddressed (looking at you, Arrow) and sometimes I do wish that these opinions could be reached to the people who control the stories; not to be received as some crazy fan who's never satisfied, but as a genuine criticism and an expectation to do better. 

However, when talking about anything that's going on--that it was Kishimoto's assistant who wrote it, that Japanese fans are unhappy with the conclusion, I don't want just statements--where's the proof? Where are people getting this info?

YESSSSSS. SAKUINO/INOSAKU WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT FTW.

I even cosplayed it back in the day! 

Myself as Sakura

I always love the additions in the anime where they're acting like genuine friends. You know what I wanted a fic to be written about (that I'm too lazy to write myself) RtN SakuIno. Ino was sooo adorable toward Sakura, I can easily imagine she's smitted with best friend and daughter-of-a-hero Sakura. 

My friend who isn't part of this site also told me that it was his assistant who wrote the ending--and that was where I first heard it from. I want to know where this information is coming from, too.  I was also considering under what circumstances would it make sense to go with NaruHina/SasuSaku and it came to my mind that maybe it was so that people would support the spin-off. I don't know how the numbers work or what the editor's viewpoints are to support it. If the ending was written by an assistant, I too would have to question WHY that is so. Why wouldn't an author write his own ending? I understand a chapter here or there if things are going on, but to not personally write the conclusion of your own story? 

There were a lot of ideas in the story that I disliked but I could live with, but an unsatisfying conclusion is missing what all the other instances had, which is hope for better writing. I had such high hopes that at the very least, after everything, I could see my favourite characters being handled well. After all the mess of destiny and conflict, I was hoping for a happy ending but this is... You're right, that it feels oddly cliched in the whole married with children, but has this really strange undertone. It was rushed, it was weird, and it gave us a lot of information but telling us nothing important. I don't know. I don't HATE Kishimoto, but I'm disappointed. He gave us something good and threw it away. It's frustrating and sad. I want to understand why, but I can't see it. This epilogue is so stupid XD

There's just... a lot I'm still struggling to digest really. It's left me teetering between apathy and scorn. Sometimes, I just want to laugh. Though I have to say, one of the things that I don't know if I'm crazy or what--but I'm REALLY REALLY disappointed that Sakura's child is so unlikeable. I don't know if I'm the only one who's bothered by her personality, but I just can't believe this is Sakura's child. This girl who goes around following bolt with a frown. It's like she's supposed to represent her father, whereas Bolt is meant to represent his, as some sort of next-gen hetero version of NaruSasu and it just doesn't work for me on any level. I really dislike Salada. Not because she's a SasuSaku baby--I would have thought if anything I could at least like the children, but I... I hate this little girl XD I was banking that if nothing else, I'd love Sakura's child! Gah. 

No, I saw more people hating Sakura over this, and saying that she's had zero development. Guys, if she had zero development we wouldn't have been so surprised and dismayed by this ending. We wouldn't have shipped this. The problem is that it's an all-too-sudden regression. The problem is that she held onto her love for Sasuke, when the guy himself didn't understand. The problem was that it was all too strange, given what we know for a character. 

Then there are people I've seen on tumblr, who are saying that fans are supposed to take was we get and to appreciate what was given to us. That's not how fans engage with the material. It's the creator who is supposed to be grateful being able to make his livelihood off a fanbase, for one, but we have every right to be disappointed when we feel the writing doesn't hold up. I appreciate what Naruto and Sakura were, and have been for the majority of this manga. The fact that this is their resolution makes me really sad for their characters. I'm sad because Naruto ends up with such an uninspiring character who just suddenly got this array of focus. Of course, I'm incredibly sorry for Sakura, who ends up with Sasuke despite everything.

It's like the morale of this story is to never stop loving and caring no matter what. That would be a nice theme, but... you don't have to marry him. These were not love stories. I think Sasuke just needed a reason to be tied to Konoha, and if Sakura loves him and has his kid then it keeps him linked while he goes out and does whatever the heck he wants. He can be a wanderer with a wife and child to return to. Karin is not tied to Konoha in the same way. This isn't for Sakura, it's for Sasuke. 

I mean, if there's any character I would blame it would be him. He's the element to this story that consistently regresses people around him. Sakura and Naruto must love and forgive him no matter what. They must be stuck in the past because that's where Sasuke left them.

I actually like guys around my height, so I don't think I prefer when the height difference is large between us because then one of us (most likely him) is bending over to hug and kiss and stuff. Though honestly, that's not going to sway my opinion. I have a tendency to like girls that are taller than me, but one girl I had a crush on was actually shorter and I'm not very tall myself (5"3) and she had a great personality. Most guys are taller than me, but I don't find that I feel protected when around them. Rather I find that I look up more haha~ That makes me feel sorry for guys especially when they're hit with growth problems--the expectations are greater on them than on women. 

It's so upsetting that someone died; I wish people wouldn't resort to violence to send political messages. So many peaceful role models in the world... I hope more comes to light about this case. 

I presume it was meant as hyperbole or at least as general characterization of how the fandom behaves rather than a literal reading of her. I'm not even sure who my favorite character is anymore. Kakashi or maybe the Second because they have been characters willing to make the adult decisions even if they dislike them. Although Kakashi soon fell back in line. So many people in this story have avoided doing that. To Kishimoto's credit it bit the Third hard and this was acknowledged. I think the Third's refusal to kill Orochimaru was seen as a negative that back fired on him. To Kishimoto's detriment this it totally ignored with Naruto.
 

I like Sakura more than Naruto and Sasuke at the moment, but 693, for me was similar to the Obito is cool moment with Naruto. It's not quiet as bad in that I don't think it demonstrated a morale failing as large as Naruto did at the moment. At the same time, I'm with you. I haven't any idea why she or anyone else likes him. Kishimoto has never done enough to justify why anyone likes him.

I think you can come up with reasons with Naruto because of what he has been through, his ideas, and empathizing with him. I can also understand Naruto being tight fisted with his relationships, regardless of whether it is rational or not. However, Naruto's desires seems far more rooted in his personal friendship and opinion rather than those abstract ideas. Given the message, I think it's that Kishimoto never did enough to show that Sasuke was at any point worthy of any of these feelings while compounding it with so many people behaving so irrationally. You can't point to the past and say when know that person is still there because (1) that person was often an a**hole too and (2) he shown way too much in terms of what he's willing to do to get what he wants. Those are a part of him as well and no one but Sasuke acknowledges this.

In Sakura's case, I just don't get it. After all the development she made from 181 to now, why does she revert to 181. As tricksie said, he slammed a reset button. It's not about moving to Naruto so much as it about her steadfast refusal to move away from Sasuke and then still use that failure of tactic to convince him to return. She calls it pathetic, so why use it? I don't find Naruto persuasive, but he is standing up to Sasuke. Why isn't she? Why is her plea so...I don't know...so meek? How is this so distinctly different than Hinata's deferential nature as it pertains to Naruto. Sakura has shown in others instances to not always be like that, but we never see Hinata in situations where we can even evaluate how Hinata would response if it were not Naruto.
 

I think his failure with Hinata is that he never allowed her to leave Naruto's orbit. I agree with your criticism that you made a while ago and that there really is not evidence that she's this super-nice person. It's mostly an assumption that is made as an extension of her being shy. The two are frequently linked in entertainment so I understand the extension, but we really have no idea how she behaves around besides Naruto.

I think Kishimoto's refusal to let her leave Naruto's obit has done such a disservice to her character. As Hinata fans erroneous assume traits that have not been demonstrated, her detractors are quick to use her status as a satellite character to assume traits I don't think the author means to convey. I've said before, I cannot see him covertly stomping on her.

For me, she is a bore who does nothing interesting. It's not just that it's Naruto, it's that its Naruto as the ideal. She has no involvement with his struggles and problems in any meaningful way let alone one that demonstrates things either for her, Naruto, or the audience. She just...exists for the romantic subplot without ever doing anything to really move it all. She's just plain and boring. As much as I loathe 693, Sakura is interesting and, on occasion, does thing that help move the story. While horribly under utilized in this role, she at least has involvement in the core problems and has, at times, help characters and herself develop as people.

Still, I somewhat understand with lords complaint simply because I recall the users who would go after people, pontificating on who was a proper Sakura fan. It's arrogant and obnoxious. I also cannot forget people jumping down my throat when I didn't properly genuflect (deliberate hyperbole) before her character. I see what Hinata fans do, watch people here complain, and then watch them do the same damn thing. It doesn't help watching the excuse that it's Kishi's fault not Sakura's excuse trotted out for only her when that's true of almost everyone. Kishimoto is so dedicated to his basic themes and plot that almost everyone has suffered major injuries to their credibility because of the plot, but I don't see the distinction being offered for them. So my sympathy is spent.

I don't share lord's opinion of Sakura or Hinata, but the broader complain...I don't think he's completely off base.

I didn't take the "Sakura is a goddess" thing too seriously, but I just found it amusing to link to THE Goddess of the universe, Kaguya, and how she has gotten nada from that hehe. I suppose to bring this back to the OP and not about the evaluation of these characters--and more about fans on the forum, then absolutely anyone who will shoot down well thought out critiques in order to defend their character without presenting their case on why their disagree--are probably resorting to blind character worship. I mentioned in my post that both character worship and bashing aren't productive, but I can see how light-heartedly loving Sakura isn't so bad and can help in these... less than stellar moments of her. It's when it's paired with bashing of other characters and opinions that it gets really out of hand and yes, I've noticed it too.

I do hold though that Sakura merits more praise than the other, if we're comparing them. I think the fandom at large can be especially hard on her and that kind of happens when you're the main heroine to a story and your author hasn't exactly done the best with you--but the problem with Hinata is the fact that the text does not give her m(any) positives. I don't disagree with giving her a self-absorbed trait, because she's always thinking of herself in relation to Naruto. There are moments where that can seem selfless, but we've seen the alternative of caring ABOUT Naruto is like--in Sakura. What is the basis of her character may be appealing to some (being devoted as a positive) but for me it is a subtraction, and the total sum is a minus. However! Much like how despite the major hiccups in Sakura's character sometimes as a fan I shrug and just go "oh well" and like her despite it, I understand Hinata fans may like her despite what I consider to be evidence to support their claims; liking the idea of her than what's on paper. I like Sakura for what she's been--which for me is interesting--and I can justify why she's weak in some areas (SASUKE NEEDS TO BE LOOOOOOVED!!!!!) so I suppose whatever makes us happy.

I assume you want people to check a doctor because you think they're delusional, buuuut I'm pretty sure you hold some delusions yourself in regards to Hinata. A far better person? At the moment she's stuck in a dream where everything is fine and dandy and Sakura is dealing with reality. Also, what qualities and aspects are these? Genuinely curious, because as I was arguing text doesn't having much that gives her qualities beyond shy girl in love with Naruto working on her confidence issues. Is it how she's so supportive of her team--wait, no. Is it how she's so nice--nope, never did anything for anyone outside of Naruto. Is it how she's self-sacrificing? Only if it's Naruto~ I think you like the idea of her as much as Sakura fans do. They both have obvious failures, so don't tell someone that refuting your point is a "waste of time" unless you mean you won't even bother to listen... Regardless, that last part was quite rude.

I think a lot of good arguments have been raised so I'm not really getting into the debate but just wanted to say that I think the reason why Sakura is my favourite is because she's NOT a goddess. Sasuke and Naruto are the ones descended from a goddess. Hinata is the one that has a Byakugan like the goddess. Meanwhile, there's Sakura on the side with the characters who've had little to no handouts and that's cool with me~

Oh, and I guess I'll also mention that the critique of Sakura and her Sasuke obsession is really a universal problem. Sasuke is the character that is loved without any reason, even when he goes out of his way to hurt the people he cares about, or just flat out distance himself. Why do Ino, Karin, Naruto, and Sakura care about him? The three ladies have all cried over him. Naruto had been worse when it came to Sasuke--before the fake 'confession' Sakura wasn't giving much indication that she loved him romantically. The recent "I love you!" and the whole plot surrounding Naruto and Sasuke's cosmic brotherhood really just pushes the uncomfortable Sasuke situation. This wasn't always the case part 2--Sasuke was almost exclusively Naruto's obsession and Sakura's desperation to "Save Sasuke for you!" was a lot more understandable when Naruto was losing himself over it. 

So I feel like when it comes to Sakura's major Sasuke flaws it's due more to inconsistency? She loses herself whenever Sasuke needs to be an important element to the plot. There's no bigger excuse for having her act irrationally, becoming emotional, getting knocked out when she's proven herself far more competent (thinking the example with the Cloud Nin) than it being because she "loves" Sasuke. Heck, even Kakashi tries to justify it, meanwhile Sasuke LAMPSHADES how ridiculous it is. I almost found it like the author acknowledging that it's problematic, and then trying to have the Sage and Kakashi TRY to make it sound reasonable...but Sakura is still laying there unconscious with her last sensation being a CHIDORI RIPPED THROUGH THE HEART. Even if it was not true, that is Sasuke's 'response' to her confession...and we're still supposed to believe that anyone should be fighting to get him back?

Hinata in contrast is rather consistent, where I can't attribute her actions to necessity of plot so much as her character traits. The freedom of not being plot relevant is that she should have more leeway in what she can do in the few panels that she's in--she could just be seen off screen taking Kiba's hand, she could have her moments where she's displaying teamwork, or going along with the crowd, but Hinata is the side character fixated on Naruto...probably because that's what her character is meant to do--be a device for a love triangle, and this is where I feel Kishimoto really lets his characters down. A big portion of their badly written side is because they're involved in romance. Flaws are one thing, and they can help strengthen a character. Sakura making bad decisions and being unlikeable at times serves her own story and growth. When these flaws are taken to an extent that is unrealistic, then they are true subtractions of the character.

Hinata is more difficult to reconcile because she doesn't have much away from Naruto, and therefore her good points end up as exaggeration. I think why I and perhaps many do spend time talking about her...criticizing her, is because there are a disproportionate amount of fans who love her and make up a lot of major, good claims about her when really the text isn't there? Does this happen with Sakura? Yeah, but she has more evidence in the text to support her favourable sides and alternative readings. Hinata is more limited.

Character worship and character bashing are not the most productive ways to be a fan, especially the latter, but between the two girls who really merits more praise? 

Whoops I said I wouldn't but I ended up getting into this debate anyways XD 

Where is this picture everyone is getting freaked out about? Though, the story itself is enough to make one cringe. I keep a few house spiders alive, because I prefer those to various insects. Generally, they stay in their designated corners and never bother me--I even had the situation where they were in my shower. You just spray the ceiling above you and they don't crawl to there. Oftentimes when a spider falls down in front of you its not because it wants to attack or say hi--it just happened to lose its footing. So, I've developed a tolerance to the sight of a few spiders out and about. It's the American house spider/common house spider so I don't really worry about it. 

HOWEVER. THOUSANDS OF SPIDERS CRAWLING ABOUT--AND BROWN RECLUSE? When I read that number my eyes bulged out of my head. WHAT. WHAT. WHAT. They're so fortunate they didn't suffer a bite. That could have been fatal if for any reason they decided to turn aggressive toward the humans! Normally I would prefer introducing a predator species BUT HOW DO YOU HANDLE 6,500 BROWN RECLUSES?

That's when I would leave. Demand that the property be considered uninhabitable and therefore not be responsible for it, and just go.

I thought this topic seemed familiar, and I remembered I started one three years back on the subject but with a specific focus on Hinata. My point was that a lot of her popularity is popular fan perception, rather than what is substantiated by the manga. This could be extended to NaruHina of course, and often is but if one attributes all of these positives to Hinata then makes her a seemingly perfect love interest for Naruto. 

http://www.narusaku....showtopic=11157 That was my take, likewise a lengthy introduction post. I think the subject has been tackled numerous times, all stated in different ways that when it comes to what the character and pairing associated with her really amount to; that beyond the scope of fan imagination there isn't much in-text to work with but what fascinated me is the phenomena surrounding it. 

You've answered, I think very well, why she is appealing. The common grain of the matter is that each point goes beyond the text and into fan terroritory.

Appearance: Highly subjective of course--I don't deny she was designed to suit the 'cute girl' look but in text her appearance amounts to nothing but a few panels of fanservice. No one talks about Hinata's beauty; contrasted to Sakura who has had three suitors, has been called a babe, and has been the subject of sexual attraction by our male lead. 

Personality and the Relationship Sue: Taking it away from the scope of men and their desires for this kind of woman, I would have thought more people would have realized how lacking she is compassion and empathy. Hinata witnesses the suffering of people in her clan and does nothing--doesn't even express her horror, and provides no argument or justification for why she didn't help. It is the fans who fill in the blanks and defend her, providing reasons like "her father wouldn't let her", "she's shy"--probably the biggest cop out argument, and "it's a rigid caste system". They believe that she believes it's wrong, but we don't get that from her mouth or thoughts. She has no connections to anyone outside of Naruto--she hardly interacts with her teammates and talks to almost no one except Neji outside of Naruto. Even Tenten would speak up for Ino when Kiba was talking smack about Sasuke and she was in grief. Hinata shows no compassion, kindness, or 'sweetness' beyond being in love. It's fine to create this image of her--and many fan-works do, but in defence of the character especially when contrasting the far more compassionate Sakura it's boggling where they get these notions. She's not nice. She's not compassionate, or understanding, or any of these things that suggest an empathy for others (beyond Naruto and perhaps Neji)...she just hasn't done anything openly wrong. 

It is like, Sakura has done a few minor bad things, and some maybe not so minor as part of her character flaws--but she's done a lot of good as well. However, the bad overshadows the good often enough. Hinata does...minor nice things...and nothing at all. The lack of any overt "bad" (though I would argue doing nothing in the face of horror and making it about yourself ergo the Neji vs Hinata fight is bad) contrasted with being just nice enough seems to be the recipe to making an angel out of a character. 

So I agree, they may see her as "the perfect ideal woman" but not because she is; but because that's what they made her out to be. A deeper reading of Hinata brings out very problematic questions and more often than even the most minor of characters, she lacks. Sure, we make fun of Shino and Tenten, but they had no plots where the suffering of a beloved cousin was a major family issue. Also Hinata has a sister, but you wouldn't know beyond "she's the better, more skilled and love sister" that basically just serves to further the symapthy toward Hinata. 

Hey if she finds Mr. or Mrs. Right, she can always file for divorce.