I was refering to the aspect you disagree with the views, you're using benefit of doubt to go against manga facts.And that i dislike, it destroy the debate and impoverish it, you're forcing a subjective view with no manga proof and using a special kind of logic that only you see it and doesnt care about the consequences of it like it can even be used to negate NaruSaku itself, just as a heads up.The logic you used ot go against is so out of place that it can be used to negate Naruto's feelings for Sakura, put Sakura on the same level of Madara in terms of "power level", show that NH will end up together and etc...i'm not going to move forward on your debate until you prove the two aspects that initiated that, first that Naruto was wrong when he said that he was weaker than Sasuke and that Sasuke implied he was weaker than Naruto thus being the reason for him to get a power up.I'm going to stop here, i wont keep arguing over manga facts, i'll just agree to disagree and i wont respond to any posts of this matter.

But Naruto never stated he was weaker than Sasuke, these aren't manga facts not only that but many translations contradict what was said there but as I said belive what you want.

It did contradicted, the manga stated Naruto was weaker than Sasuke which was right at that time, Sasuke got more power ups than Naruto and the genjutsu aspect was a critical measure.They werent equal and it was stated, Sasuke implied max power and he got that but no, not being satisfied with that you forced "benefit of doubt" and put subjective aspects into the matter, and tried to make me look like some sort of an idiot that holds the entire knowledge of the site and claimed i cant see the context of manga panels that only you managed to see it.You're trying to justify your subjective claims with no manga panels or proof.Just with your fallacy. Where did i talked about feats, i was quoting James because he bought up feats, you started saying Pain'arc and inserting "If's" into your commentaries.

It was never stated in the manga. You avoided all my questions and all the answers I gave you along with, everything that went against your belief was simply ignored.

Genjutsu are feats and again avoiding the answers as usual.
Believe what you want but let's stop wasting our time it's time to move on.

Funny thought you talk about context and totally disregard Naruto's context when he said "i cant beat Sasuke at his current level"
He wanst implying Sasuke on a weakened state or blinded.
 
Naruto is inferior to Sasuke when Naruto's weakness is genjutsu and thanks to the fact being a jinchuuriki renders him immune to it he's capable of overcoming his weakness, Sasuke has no exploitable weakness on the manga, and if he got any it will be shown on the last battle.

But that's what the others were talking about, and it doesn't contradict what I said since I said Naruto can't defeat Sasuke but neither can Sasuke, what I don't aknowledge is the so called Sasuke superiority when there's much more implying they are equal.

Please don’t bring genjutsu or feats into this it will lead nowhere because feats don't matter in this manga what matters is power level, if 2 characters are said to be equal then they will be equal no matter how nonsencical it is, theoretically nothing could stop Kakashi to Kamui everyone's heads but it's not happening because fights are dictated by plot and power levels no matter how much hax you have.

manga facts

There's no arguments against facts.Naruto stated that he was weaker than Sasuke and there no discussion or debate over it, it's like chapter 3 when Naruto said he loved Sakura and even now there people rejecting it.It's clear on the manga that Naruto was weaker than Sasuke, why keep arguing over it?Case Closed, now move on.

Sadly for you there's not one translation for this part and many others imply a different meaning so until you can provide a raw and a perfect translation it means nothing but it doesn't really matter either way because all we have to do is to look at the context there (something you seem to miss a lot) : Neji and Kiba are talking about an almost blind exhausted without chakra and hurt Sasuke to which Naruto answers that he can't defeat him, so if for you Naruto is weaker than a blind exhausted and without chakra Sasuke I am glad that you and me dont see things the same way. You dont see how this panel doesn't make sense if you take it at face value and without any context.


Now enlighten me please how does this imply Naruto is inferior to Sasuke ? Naruto said he can't defeat Sasuke but he never said Sasuke could defeat him, since you like facts here are facts for you : During the team 7 reunion and the NaruSasu convo Naruto said that if they fought him and Sasuke would BOTH die implying they are equal.
So please explain me which one is true ? That they would both die in a fight or that Naruto can't defeat a blind injured Sasuke ? Both are facts following your brilliant logic so why do they contradict each other ?

About Kurama, Naruto is a jinchuuriki and Kurama's power is his own power despite the fandom disagreeing with it, Naruto needed to control this power to be able to defeat Sasuke, he knew that Sasuke would get a powerup to get stronger and he realized he need it to beat him, and could not allow himself any longer to keep running away from his jinchuuriki's fate, it's stated on the manga.
 
He wanted to beat Naruto with all his power crushing him, he was already stronger but he wanted to humiliate Naruto with the EMS.
he didnt wanted to just crush Naruto but also his ideas with an absurd power, Naruto surpassed Sasuke and EMS Sasuke with Kurama mode.

how did he know Sasuke would get a power up ? Where is it stated ?
Where was it stated that Sasuke was stronger than Naruto ? All I see is speculation because Naruto said he needed Kurama's power to help him while you guys ignore Sasuke's reaction, if Sasuke really could defeat SM Naruto with just his MS he would have done it and kept his words and not take Itachi's eyes but something made him change his mind and it's not a coincidence he changed his mind just after his encounter with Naruto, context is important. Besides Naruto held his ground against Pain I don't see how he wouldn't be able to fight against a much less stronger opponent than Pain.
If you guys want to believe Sasuke was stronger than Naruto go on but nothing in the manga implies such thing. Personally I do believe that SM Naruto = MS Sasuke it makes sense from a plot perspective and by judging both characters' reactions to each other, nothing implies one is stronger and certainly not one sentence taken out of context or feats which are totally inconsistent from chapter to chapter.

These latest chapters have been a breath of fresh air, no friendship crap, no whining, no meaningless talks and above all no Rin just action, at the expense of Kishi's own rules, but who cares it's much more enjoyable to read than the borefest we had the last 60 chapters

Again, you're relying too much on the "benefit of the doubt" when it was made clear what Naruto was referring to his own strength as he was receiving the means to fully unlock Kurama's power. Naruto obviously has a grasp of Sasuke's techniques and even when you judge it strictly by feats there's nothing in his arsenal that could handle Amaterasu or genjutsu.
Naruto was depending on Kurama to go up against Sasuke. That attack strategy was rendered void in just a few panels at the end of the last chapter so he hasn't had an opportunity to account for the losses and refine his other skills to somehow compensate for the decrease in power.
 

Again, it was a matter of having insufficient power compared to Sasuke. Emotions didn't play into his responce. They were just an afterthought concerning the matter of his redemption.
 

 
What evidence from the manga did you use to arrive at this conclusion? As far as Naruto was concerned, he wasn't aware of EMS at the time. In fact, none of the Uchiha besides Madara, Tobi, and Itachi knew of its existence. Sasuke had only just learned of the possibility of a permanent Sharingan when Itachi mentioned it to him during their battle.
Given Naruto's reaction to MS and its techniques, he was likely referring to regular MS.
 

When has Naruto has ever been known for being cautious? He's a fearless, headstrong idiot who jumps into the fray without a moment's notice. Frequently he doesn't take into account what his opponent is capable of (FRS against Nagato when he understood that ninjutsu was useless against HGR). For him to express any serious concern about his opponent's techniques isn't commonplace. He must have a grasp of the nature of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (both of which can't be nullified without meeting certain conditions or having particular techniques) if he was willing to provide special attention to Itachi when he used them.
 

And I don't understand why you're so adamant in trying to deflect the context of Naruto's words to mean something that they don't.
We have the panel evidence and the quotes to substantiate that Naruto was referring to his power and abilities. This is sounding more and more like you're grasping at straws. Even Darkrest seems to agree with me about what Naruto meant.

Naruto wanted Kurama's power to defeat Sasuke and Sasuke wanted Itachi's eyes just so he could defeat Naruto while prior to his meeting with Naruto he always refused to take Itachi's eyes, and for Sasuke to make such a drastic decision he must have realized MS alone wouldn't be enough, . It's perfectly reasonable to accept Naruto's words for what they are but at the same time you can't ignore Sasuke's own words and reactions, it works both ways both tought they wouldn't be strong enough to defeat the other one without a power up.

What a great chapter we are finally getting rid of Obito and it can only be a good thing, I hope if Madara takes over he won't whine as much as Obito and we will get some good action contrary to the joke we got since Obito became the Juubi Jin.
Normally I would be offended that a man who caused so much deaths and destruction over such petty reasons will get a chance towards redemption but if it allows to finally end Naruto and Obito's "conflict" then I'm all for it.
 
I never was one of those who tought the parallel will be confirmed (except for the team 7 team Minato parallel ) but now I can see Obito sacrificing himself to save Sakura and redeeming himself in the process, even if the parallel is obvious to see Kishi always likes to force it down everyone's troaths so for the parallels junkies out there don't give up yet there's hope.

We all should by now that Sasuke's character doesn't respect any logic I still didn't forget the deidara fight whatever is convenient for him to get more powerful he will get it. No offense to Sasuke fans but he is the most boring and annoying character in this manga. Kishi is still trying to sell us the idea that Sasuke is a genius and he doesn't need to train to get stronger but it just doesn't work anymore and is overdone, even more so when all Sasuke does is stealing others's people powers and yet is praised for it. Just be prepared for more Sasuke's free power ups he isn't done yet.

This is kind of bothering me too. How did Sasuke's Susanoo get to be the same size as Naruto's kyuubi mode? I mean I must have missed something.
Anyway, all indicates that Naruto will receive Kurama's other half, therefore restoring it's original size when it attacked Konoha, and Sasuke to counterbalance will be handed the final Susanoo in some miraculous way.

Isn't Sasuke powered up by Kyuubi's chakra ? If you look closely you will see that Sasuke still has the cloak and the cloak makes your jutsu 3 times stronger I guess that's why Susanoo is suddenly so big.

It was cool to see the first kages and the political situation in that period but it's a bit late to bring this up and it's never going to get extended upon so it's really pointless. We are in the middle of a war and we get so little action instead what we have is motivational speeches and emotional crap it's frustrating ; too much talks not enough fights and horrible pacing.

What can I say more about such a boring chapter ? Ha yes the alliance is just a waste of panels and Sasuke is as unbearable as usual, his arrogancy is annoying.

Not a bad chapter, but I was expecting more than an other emotional chapter.

I read the comments at the beginning and I don't see how Naruto was lost in this chapter or going to give up he was just angry and sad of course but his facial expression says it all and I got the impression he was rising up before Sasuke told him anything, Sasuke only managed to help Naruto focus that anger. I have a lot of critics towards Naruto's character but there was nothing wrong with him this chapter I don't get where people were seeing Naruto was giving up. Someone care to explain me.

 

Kishi's attempts at humor are pathetic and at the expense of Karin's character it's not funny Kishi and in the middle of the war and many deaths it's even more ridiculous. Please stop butchering her character more than she is.

Naruto for me will always remain wasted potential, at least part 1 of the manga was excellent and it's sad that such a great manga sunk to such lows.

DBZ for me remains far better since it never has the pretense to convey a pseudo philosophical message it was just for action and I enjoyed it (it's the manga I grew up with so I may be biased). Berserk is excellent until you get to the point when you have to wait 3-4 months which destroyed my interest in the serie. I watched recently attack on titans thanks to my brother's adivce who is also the one who presented me Naruto and I've got to say it's superior to Naruto in every aspect (plot consistency, character development) but it's a bit overrated. I will give you that it's better than Saint Seiya but out of the 5 mangas I have ever read Naruto only comes at 4th place, still I want to see how it ends only then will I be able to give a fair judgement.

@weltall some people said it might be because she is linked to the whole alliance via katsuyu clones, so those shinobi that got caught by shinju might have sucked in her chakra leaving sakura weakened.
 
and yea, the devil fruit is the most probable upgrade for sasuke.

I'm sorry I didn't read all the thread it's an interesting idea but shouldn't Katsuyu be aware of that or affected by it too ? either way and whatever the explanation is I don't think Kishi did this for no reason, he could have easily avoided that, I expect more about this in the upcoming chapters.

We both agree on that the fruit is most likely Sasuke's next powerup.

Am I the only one who think there's no reason for Sakura's state ? the people aroukd her like Sai and Katsuyu weren't affected by the tree so why is she down right now makes no sense, I think we should wait before making any conclusions, maybe Sakura's time is finally coming.

And now that the concept of the tree and the fruit has been introduced who do you think will eat it ( because that's bound to happen) ? my bet is Sasuke will.

I read this chapter 3 times to understand what was going on, the tree branches absorbed chakra from Naruto, Minato, Hashirama and Madara and tried to attain Killer Bee yet Sasuke Juugo and the fodders behind them were unaffected I wonder why ? Was it because they were closer or because they have more chakra (wouldn't make sense since Sasuke and the fodders behind him were fine and still had the chakra cloak) ? or maybe it's both ? and why is Sakura down when she still has her chakra cloak and Katusyu and Sai right next to her are fine ? I think we are missing some elements here to make a clear judgement.

The mythology sounds like a bad fanfiction and I don't see the point but I get the impression Madara doesn't know the whole deal. I am ok for the use of mythology and religious notions but this is too much it's like Naruto is the second coming of Christ or the return of the buddha (Maitreya), and Obito is the antichrist since he's the dark Naruto, now this child of prophecy bs is starting to make sense. If that's what Kishi planned since the beginning of part 2 then he didn't do a great job, I get the whole idea but the execution is not that great.
Madara's reasoning has little basis especially in light of his previous actions but he's a villain in Kishi’s manga and he is bound to be a poor deluded bastard who is looking for peace in his own way so no surprise there.

Can't really say much more I have no idea where Kishi is going with that but I will reserve judgment until things are expanded if they ever are but at this moment I am not convinced. Good thing tough the manga is getting closer to the end.

Naruto Hachibi and Minato should immune to genjutsu.
Genjutsu rule is : To break from a genjutsu someome else must put chakra on you, explained by Killer bee and since being a jinchuuriki the bijuu which is inside you can free you from the genjutsu, so in theory Naruto Bee and Minato should be immune to the Mugen Tsukyomi, Sasuke has a sharingan so he wont be caught on, and Sakura has some resistance to it so she probably figure out that is a genjutsu.
 
Cuz the mugen tsukyomi is nothing else more than a genjutsu being cast on everyone ,it's not more strong than Itachi's tsukyomi which also ended with someome else putting chakra on Kakashi.
 
Plus the kyuubi chakra which Naruto put on everyone i dont know if this will make them immune to the Tsukyomi because Naruto can manipulate it to let the people immune, maybe the genjutsu will affect the edo tenseis like the one who affected Itachi.
 
Will kishi break this rule?

The fourth Mizukage was a perfect jin, yet he was under a genjutsu. Against Itachi Naruto said that if Itachi used Tsukyomi on Bee it would be over thus perfect Jin aren't immune to genjutsu, most likely they are immune to normal genjustsu but against potent gen like tsukyomi or koto even them are affected. I don’t see how Kishi would break his rules when it was never a rule to begin with.

I feel bad for Sasuke, what was the point for him to come to the battlefield ? Sasuke will get Sharinnegan like the so6p, Rinnegan isn't enough.

Enough with the bonds I am saturated just give us a fight.

OMFG best villain ever. Let's hope he will die soon.

One chapter to avoid an attack, unnecessary. Terrible chapter.
Funny debate you guys had about Sakura's healing compared to Kyubi's, Kurama's chakra couldn’t heal Naruto's shoulders in chapter 617 so whatever abilites it had in part 1 it has been lost, Sakura is necessary as long as the plot forces her to be. Kishi is such an inconsistent writer that now everyone can use doton jutsu when it was said shinobi can only learn 2 or 3 elemental jutsus or maybe they all have Rinnegan and don't realize it. Obviously Kishi doesn't respect his own rules, if I were you I wouldn't look too deep into it Kishi just doesn't care and neither do the casual readers which comprise a majority of the readers.

I simply cannot contend with the fact that you can rip a person in two and have them back out there fighting not 20 minutes later because they tookma bite of yummy Karin goodness. That is serious asspull territory and makes Karin arguably the most efficient medical nin in the world. Kakashi was under Tsunade's personal medical care and was still out of commission for days if not weeks even though he sustained lesser injuries. If Tsunade is back out there fighting 20 minutes later after having been ripped in two because of Karin I'm calling asspull. I'm sorry, that's just pure BS.
That aside, we'll just have to agree to disagree. You seem to feel like Sakura has done enough to warrant the big mouth Kishi gave her and I really don't feel she has. If she remains on the sidelines now it would be embarrassing. She stood up and popped off at the mouth about how she's going to fight along her Team and how she's going to compete with them. And now she's sitting. You say her moment "doesn't have to be long." I don't even feel it was achieved. If Kishi left her on the sidelines now, in my mind, it would confirm her as an afterthought on his conclusion list for the series.

From what I understood Karin only did help to heal and replenish Tsunade's chakra, it's Tsunade herself who did most of the healing. Still an asspull tough.

Edit : agree with most of Atheck's points and since he's much more eloquent than me I will let him handle that.

No problem and yeah, welcome to my world...

You are quite courageous just reading few posts got on my nerve.
I hope the thread will be unlocked soon with no more pairing crap.

Everytime Naruto, Sakura, Hinata and Sasuke appears in the same page this has to be related to pairings. Seriously this is a shonen not some shoujo. If the thread was locked because of the off topic then fair enough I can understand the mods , chapter threads should be about the chapter, if people want to talk about pairings even where there's no hints about it this thread is for them so I won't have to cope with the overanalysing of simple and straight forward panels and the riduculous theories that ensue. It's getting bordeline retarted.
Anyway thanks for the answer man.

Why is the Naruto 641 thread locked ? Is that because of the ridiculous overreaction over Sakura's and Hinata's panel ? I can't believe I can't discuss about a good chapter in a long time just because some people can't look at this manga without making nonsensical theories about pairings. I don’t come here very often but everytime I come here everything even things that are not connected to pairings have to be related to pairings.
"Zomg Hinata and Sakura keeping an eye on their boy"
"Omg Sakura said Naruto's name first".
It doesn't matter if we see more of one of the most mysterious and well developed character in this manga, no it doesn't everything has to relate to pairings even if that doesn't make sense. I am starting to want Sakura and Hinata to die so this shipping madness stops this is ridiculous at this point.

If someone has an explanation for why the thread is locked I would be happy about it.

well i always think that naruto is the truly spiritual successor of dragon ball.
dragon ball awesome until frezza arc. naruto part 1 and early part2 is gold,
 
i agree with the bold, because that will make me enjoy more from naruto, because i belive kishi didn't have that kind of talent.
he can make a grand desing for world, the rule, and power. but he didn't execute it with good. it always feel half heart,
 
 
oh btw do you think we will get another the parafest, after minakushi maybe we will get obirin and hashimito.

The big difference between part 1 and part 2 is that in part 1 it's the characters who drives the plot whereas in part 2 the plot drives the characters besides I don't think Kishi intented for the manga to last this long but victim of his success he had to find ways to extend it and by extension he had to extend the drama at the cost of common sense and logic.

To answer your question altough I can't say it with 100% certainty I don’t see a direct parallel to ObiRin but rather a parallel between team 7 and team Minato. I don’t see any parallel with HashiMito, Mito is a nobody and has no character development a parallel would make no sense until she gets it. But it doesn't matter anyway since the Kushina parallel to Sakura has been confirmed (and the sannin parallel), from a writer's perspective it would be illogical to bring a hint made more than 100 chapters to confirm it and to not follow trough with it. It was clear foreshadowing that Naruto and Sakura will end up in a romantic relation. Instead of bringing an other parallel it would be more than time to work on the end pairing so it can happen in a convincing way.