14 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

So this isn't anything real big, but it is just something that really bugs me that I really need to get off my chest.

Alot of you have many reasons to call Naruto a hypocrite and in ways you are right. However, my reason is a little bit different that I wish to explain. You see, Naruto had some things that might be taken as hypocritical of him. Truth be told, I had no problem with most things because in all honesty almost all heroes are like this. Superman is even like this sometimes, but I cannot fault them for that. Otherwise I might as well blame every hero for being such one. This is merely an idea and not say a judgemental one.

Some of you remember this, right?
http://www.mangapand...m/naruto/671/15

"We're great friends you know." Referring to Sasuke.

I have a huge urk with this line from Naruto for a while now and it is probably the only thing that has really urked me ever since this manga started. This line makes Naruto a bigger hypocrite and honestly makes me mad at him for calling Sakura a liar about Sasuke (even if he is right.) I'll explain, but first let me bring up another scene.

"I hate people that lie to themselves."

What does that mean? Naruto is basically saying that he hates people who live in delusions and not reality. At least this is what I assume. He hates people that deny their true feelings for one reason or another. That being said I have to say this: "Look who is talking, Naruto."

You hate people who lie to themselves meanwhile you are lying to yourself thinking Sasuke is a great friend? Really? I'm sorry, but are we sure that Naruto isn't living in fantasy land? Okay, friend maybe, brother sure, teammate definitly, aquaintence yes, but great friend? This dude has tried everthing he can to show that he is not as great of a friend as you might think, but you ignore all that bad stuff because he saved you on the bridge that one time? Come on. You call Sakura a liar because she doesn't care about Sasuke anymore and say you hate people like that, meanwhile you are lying to yourself thinking Sasuke is this great friend who has never been a jerk to you. Even Sasuke himself thinks you are out of your mind and he is borderline psychotic.

No offense, Naruto, but before you start judging Sakura of lying to herself maybe you should look in the mirror and really ask yourself "Is Sasuke really that grest of a friend?" I can even understand you calling him "a friend" because that at least implies that you are close, but you have issues, but a "great friend?" Yeah, you are lying to yourself now.

Really, Naruto, I am a nice guy too and I am willing to give people chances, but I would never say that a person who I used to care that tries killing the girl I love, kill me, and kill the people I look after is a "great friend." Even the most noble of heroes is not that stupid and believe me, it is the dumbest thing you have ever said in my view.

I know many people here can try to justify it or say that Naruto correct in thinking this, but I really have a hard time believing this. I really have a hard time swallowing this plot point.

Anyway, that's jsut my rant.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 08 July 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[Nate River]

So this isn't anything real big, but it is just something that really bugs me that I really need to get off my chest.

Alot of you have many reasons to call Naruto a hypocrite and in ways you are right. However, my reason is a little bit different that I wish to explain. You see, Naruto had some things that might be taken as hypocritical of him. Truth be told, I had no problem with most things because in all honesty almost all heroes are like this. Superman is even like this sometimes, but I cannot fault them for that. Otherwise I might as well blame every hero for being such one. This is merely an idea and not say a judgemental one.

Some of you remember this, right?
http://www.mangapand...m/naruto/671/15

"We're great friends you know." Referring to Sasuke.

I have a huge urk with this line from Naruto for a while now and it is probably the only thing that has really urked me ever since this manga started. This line makes Naruto a bigger hypocrite and honestly makes me mad at him for calling Sakura a liar about Sasuke (even if he is right.) I'll explain, but first let me bring up another scene.

"I hate people that lie to themselves."

What does that mean? Naruto is basically saying that he hates people who live in delusions and not reality. At least this is what I assume. He hates people that deny their true feelings for one reason or another. That being said I have to say this: "Look who is talking, Naruto."

You hate people who lie to themselves meanwhile you are lying to yourself thinking Sasuke is a great friend? Really? I'm sorry, but are we sure that Naruto isn't living in fantasy land? Okay, friend maybe, brother sure, teammate definitly, aquaintence yes, but great friend? This dude has tried everthing he can to show that he is not as great of a friend as you might think, but you ignore all that bad stuff because he saved you on the bridge that one time? Come on. You call Sakura a liar because she doesn't care about Sasuke anymore and say you hate people like that, meanwhile you are lying to yourself thinking Sasuke is this great friend who has never been a jerk to you. Even Sasuke himself thinks you are out of your mind and he is borderline psychotic.

No offense, Naruto, but before you start judging Sakura of lying to herself maybe you should look in the mirror and really ask yourself "Is Sasuke really that grest of a friend?" I can even understand you calling him "a friend" because that at least implies that you are close, but you have issues, but a "great friend?" Yeah, you are lying to yourself now.

Really, Naruto, I am a nice guy too and I am willing to give people chances, but I would never say that a person who I used to care that tries killing the girl I love, kill me, and kill the people I look after is a "great friend." Even the most noble of heroes is not that stupid and believe me, it is the dumbest thing you have ever said in my view.

I know many people here can try to justify it or say that Naruto correct in thinking this, but I really have a hard time believing this. I really have a hard time swallowing this plot point.

Anyway, that's jsut my rant.

The resolution for that is easy. It's not really hypocrisy on Naruto's part. First, Naruto would be a hypocritic if he didn't hate himself for lying about that line. You'd have to convince him of the former to test the latter. It presumes Naruto wouldn't hate himself for it or that he thinks its okay for him to lie to himself, but not okay for others. I don't think Naruto believes he is lying to himself nor do I think Kishimoto is intending to suggest he is.

With Sakura, I think that was intention and the author meant to convey exactly what it sounded like: that she was kidding herself about being over Sasuke. I think later developments support that. So, I think the authors intent and meaning are clear.

So, first, if there is a character defect I think that, at best, it's being deluded, not hypocritical.

ut even calling him this gloss over the actual problem: Kishimoto's failure to adequately set up the great friends bit. I think Kishimoto plays that straight here in that he means for Naruto to be serious, and for it to be an accurate description. Too bad, the writing doesn't match up.

So, I'd have to go for Death of the Author (not something I'm adverse too actually) to believe he is hypocritical. Personally I don't think he is. I think the failure is the author's for not adequately demonstrating that.

[vblm]

"Great friend" in this context just means that they are close; Naruto considers Sasuke to be like a brother to him. From Naruto's perspective, family is family no matter what. If not for everybody, then for Naruto.

[James S Cassidy]

"Great friend" in this context just means that they are close; Naruto considers Sasuke to be like a brother to him. From Naruto's perspective, family is family no matter what. If not for everybody, then for Naruto.

No. Sorry, but I don't buy that. There are other words you can use to mean someone is "close to you" that doesn't involve the words "great friend." If we are just going generalize that kind of word play, then why not say "My life mate." You might as well since apparently we're just throwing context out the window.

Also, how are they close? They don't really connect in any way and they fight and argue constantly. So do you have great friends like this? So do your great friends attempt to murder you and kill what you love telling you along the way that he wants to sever the bonds they have with you?

I know this is a fantasy story and all, but there is such as things as "beyond the suspension of belief."

No matter how you look at it, it makes no sense context wise. Sasuke's closeness to Naruto is really only based on what Naruto feels and not what actually is. This is why I say he is lying to himself because there is no objective evidene to prove that Sasuke is close to him other than Naruto's word. Everything else shows Sasuke having somewhat of a soft spot for Naruto, but never does it show them actually being close.

What is this closeness based off of? Nothing really and it could be implied to almost anyone. If the closeness is based on similarities then Neji, Obito, and Gaara are far closer to Naruto than Sasuke is. I might as well say they are great friends too, but I know some of you are probably not too keen on the idea of Obito and Naruto being "great friends" because Obito killed his parents.

Of course, if this is also a case, then Sakura must be his bestest friend ever considering how close they are and this is also assuming that Naruto doesn't see Sasuke as being a higher status then the rest of his real friends, but I kind of think this is not the case...

If it is as you say that it is all from "Naruto's perspective" then he basically is lying to himself and should have no right to criticizing Sakura for doing the same...

Edited by James S Cassidy, 08 July 2014 - 10:38 PM.

[ramenanmitsu]

Naruto's one sided obsession towards Sasuke annoys the hell out of me. No matter what the yaoi fan girls say, at this moment, Sasuke does NOT care about Naruto other than to fulfill his purposes.

With that said, Naruto is not a hypocrite. Because he THINKS Sasuke is a great friend. He thinks so AND he says so. Hypocrisy would be if he said Sasuke is a great friend but doesn't think so, or he says Sasuke is a bad friend but inwardly he thinks Sasuke is great. In the canon case, his words and his mind match so he's not a hypocrite. You can blame Naruto for his naïveté, stupidity or delusions but you can't accuse him of being a hypocrite.

He says what he thinks. That simple.

[Inferno180]

Part of the deal with the lie to themselves line did have a dual event occurance though:

 

1. Naruto said it before Sakura saw how sasuke became, so in one sense she didn't see how much he had changed before then, ironically these events could have been the start of something to have her move on from sasuke before she saw how much he changed.

2. The events after the land of iron reunion, well like 540, and 635 Sakura had seen what had happened or what had changed with him and with him back after this event, we saw she was saddened by what happened, and well recently its only gotten worse, for a time she thought he was back and honest but sai's input did leave a lot of clues as to sasuke not being well, good yet and theres still some darkness with him So in this case, Sakura knows what Sasuke has become and she doesn't trust him and after seeing it this much, this could be a deal of she would have reason to move on if anything, kakashis words are to be taken in that she no longer loves him, only cares for him as a comrade and friend and like naruto, isnt willing to abandon him even though he almost did recently.

 

Naruto does have a small degree of hypocrisy though, its again only because of their similar origins that naruto acts the way he does with sasuke and the similar trials they both faced but naruto wants to pull sasuke over to the good side before he ends up destroying himself from revenge on all accounts. But it didn't help that naruto couldn't face issues before that in part led to the current events with the 4th war and sasukes actions.

 

Though on the lie to themselves part, I will basically say, whoever starts the confession, if naruto does it to sakura or sakura approaches naruto (but all honest this time) it would be done on the aspect of maturity, in naruto's case, he comes to terms to confess in one way he may not know what happens with the future concerning team 7 or if he even survives the fight with sasuke or he does it once he 'returns' sasuke feeling he completed his task as he doesn't confess yet from reasons we saw in 457. For Sakura, it would be simply because she would no longer be forcing herself just to like naruto, for her there would have to be some "internal event" for her to come to terms with who she honestly thinks more about, naruto or sasuke, basically this would be that point of she considers everything that has happened and who it happened with and for, even some parts of herself who has she supported and focused more on, who does she see closer in her heart? Basically some maturity event for her to make it so she is no longer "forcing herself" to love naruto, only after coming to terms with her own feelings would she realize who is really important in her heart. Is is still more concerned with sasuke based on the past or naruto who she outright supports and has shown support and care for numerous times? Thats the idea of how this could go.

[vblm]

No. Sorry, but I don't buy that. There are other words you can use to mean someone is "close to you" that doesn't involve the words "great friend." If we are just going generalize that kind of word play, then why not say "My life mate." You might as well since apparently we're just throwing context out the window.

Who says thay? That's not a common phrase in any dialect of Engliah that I've ever heard.

Also, how are they close? They don't really connect in any way and they fight and argue constantly. So do you have great friends like this? So do your great friends attempt to murder you and kill what you love telling you along the way that he wants to sever the bonds they have with you?

I know this is a fantasy story and all, but there is such as things as "beyond the suspension of belief."

It doesn't come off as unrealistic to me at all. I can tell you from personal experience that there is a certain kind of familial bond that you just cannot escape no matter the circumstances. Maybe it seems odd to you because you don't feel it? Some families are closer than others.

[Iwantbuns]

I don't think Naruto was calling him a great friend. I think he was saying that they both share an unbreakable friendship. It doesn't matter if Sasuke gets further and further away from him, Naruto will always be there for him.

 

I think Naruto's trying to actually say that he's a great friend to him. And that Sasuke used to be a good friend to him, and that he will never forget that. It relates to that whole deal he's got with bonds, you know?

[Nate River]

I agree with the others. He believes what he says. That Sasuke fails to meet that or reciprocate might be something else or a failure on a part of the author, but I don't see how it makes him a hypocrite.

Even if Naruto is lying to himself, he doesn't think he is.

[Win-chan]

I think the difference lies in their perception of their feelings. No matter how mean and awful Sasuke may be, Naruto still cares about him, and he understands that that's the way he feels. So while he may be deluding himself into thinking that he and Sasuke have some special bond, at least he is conscious of how he feels about Sasuke. He'll always believe that they are great friends and he is aware of that belief, so he isn't really lying to himself. In Sakura's case, it was different, because she was lying about how she felt towards Sasuke. 

 

In addition, people are contradictory anyway. They may consciously believe one thing and then act another way without realizing that they are contradicting exactly what they believe. So even if he was being hypocritical, I doubt he realizes it. Besides, it's not like he was thinking about that instance when he said, "I hate people who lie to themselves." That one liner also was probably just specific to the situation. We don't see Naruto talking about people lying to themselves all that much, so we can assume it was just for Sakura at that moment and not one of his "ninja ways."

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

I consider Naruto a hypocrite, but not in that way. Naruto likely still believes Sasuke cares for him somewhere and he's very devoted towards him himself. As long as Naruto still hopes for Sasuke's redemption and keeps caring about him, he'll consider them "great friends". It's not really being a hypocrite so much as it's just his POV. Like how Naruto once said Sasuke acknowledged him more than anyone else. As wrong and delusional as it is (please "we're great friends" has nothing on that one), it's what he really believes so there's nothing you can do about it.

 

Naruto is a major hypocrite though when it comes to selflessness. It's "okay" for him to risk his life, it's "okay" for him to die to protect someone, it's "okay" to take burdens, it's "okay" for him hurt his own feelings for another person, but it's not okay when anyone ever does the same for him. Blatant hypocrisy and he knows it, but he does it anyway because he cares.

 

It sort of reminds me of a Part 1 filler arc. Naruto got mad at Sakura for risking her life and trying to protect him and said she shouldn't ever do that again, but literally right before that he risked his life to protect her multiple times and kept getting beat the hell up for the very same reason. Granted it's filler, but accurate to Naruto's character IMO.

 

I always imagined a NS argument happening at some point (whether in the manga or off-panel) where Naruto's chewing out Sakura for either risking her life to protect him or hurting her own feelings to spare his, but then Sakura gets pissed and says something along the lines of "I can't do it, but you can do it for me?"

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 10 July 2014 - 04:14 PM.

[ramenanmitsu]

If anyone is a hypocrite in this manga, it's Obito, not Naruto.

That guy had a strong grudge towards Minato and Kakashi and blamed them because they couldn't protect Rin. But HE is the one who couldn't protect her. The guy has no rights accusing someone's failure when it's just as much his own.

[Princess Iris]

If anyone is a hypocrite in this manga, it's Obito, not Naruto.

That guy had a strong grudge towards Minato and Kakashi and blamed them because they couldn't protect Rin. But HE is the one who couldn't protect her. The guy has no rights accusing someone's failure when it's just as much his own.

As far i remember, obito DIDN'T blame Kakashi. He knew that Rin herself went in front of kakashi and died to protect everyone

[Gojira]

Still that's gotta hurt not only did she die but she died with Kakashi being the one she loved most. 

 

 

 

@James yeah I agree Sasuke is a "great friend" the same way Shane was a great friend in The Walking Dead.

Edited by Pepsi, 11 July 2014 - 03:55 PM.

[ioria]

I don't know about hypocrite, but Naruto suffers from multiple synaptic failure, the major symptom being the gratitude shown to Obito and his killings.

Edited by ioria, 11 July 2014 - 11:25 PM.