32 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

I have a good idea to suit all needs and be peaceful about it. This is a little exercise I used to do in reading classes all the time and it should work here too. We have optimistic people and we have pessimistic people. Let's see if we can find a middle ground.

 

In this exercise I want you to come up with good things, bad things, and ugly things about the Naruto manga.

If you like something good or think a part of the story is well written put it under the good. Describe why you feel it is good and why you feel it has made the story better.

If you hate something and think it is bad, explain why you hate it and why it is bad for the story.

For the ugly moments, think of a moment that made you go "WTF?" Give insight on what made this scene so out there and why it doesn't make sense. It can be a funny too if there is humor in it.

Here are the rules though:

1. For every good or bad moment, you HAVE to put a corresponding good and bad moment. No putting down like 50 bad moments and only 1 good moment. This is about balance. Ratio should be 1:1.

 

2. Please take this seriously. What I mean by this is is actually explain why something is good or bad. Don't just say "I love/hate this" and leave it at that. The more insight you put, the better we can understand why.

 

3. The "Ugly" part is not necessary. It is mostly for fun. If you can find a humorous moment or maybe something you thought was weird occurred, please share your thoughts.

4. Be respectful. You don't have to agree with each other, but don't try to impose your opinions on others. That's not the point of this exercise.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 April 2014 - 04:37 PM.

[Gravenimage]

Good idea James. But I highly doubt the optimistic and pessimistic people will get along just fine. That's why I say 10$ this thread will get close.

[Nostradamus]

So shall we begin?

1. The Good - Naruto and Sakura's relationship. It's a selfless love, they are willing to sacrifice their own desires to ensure the other one is either happy or safe.

2. The Bad - Naruto and Sasuke's relationship. Instead of seeing a true friendship, we got Naruto's constant obsession with Sasuke. An obsession that makes him forget the people in his life that actually care about him. Also this obsession made him forget his own dreams.

3. The Ugly - Karin. To be more precise Karin's love towards Sasuke. It gives us the wrong message for oh so many reasons.

 

I could go on and on with all three but you said give only one example to each of them.

Edited by Nostradamus, 28 April 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

So shall we begin?

1. The Good - Naruto and Sakura's relationship. It's a selfless love, they are willing to sacrifice their own desires to ensure the other one is either happy or safe.

2. The Bad - Naruto and Sasuke's relationship. Instead of seeing a true friendship, we got Naruto's constant obsession with Sasuke. An obsession that makes him forget the people in his life that actually care about him. Also this obsession made him forget his own dreams.

3. The Ugly - Karin. To be more precise Karin's love towards Sasuke. It's give us the wrong message for oh so many reasons.

 

I could go on and on with all three but you said give only one example to each of them.

Thanks, but you can keep going.

I mean the ratio has to be 1 to 1. That means if you have 5 good points you have to have 5 bad points. Not like 3 good points and 10 bad points.

Okay? ^_^ So go ahead and put more if you have any. Just make sure the points are of even ratio.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 April 2014 - 04:38 PM.

[Nostradamus]

Thanks, but you can keep going.

I mean the ratio has to be 1 to 1. That means if you have 5 good points you have to have 5 bad points. Not like 3 good points and 10 bad points.

Okay? ^_^ So go ahead and put more if you have any. Just make sure the points are of even ratio.

I would probably need an entire forum page to say what I like and what I find bad about this story. Maybe I'll work on it in the future but not right now, and of course I would limit myself.

[Inferno180]

Here's an easy one, kishis choice in powerups

1. It's been good when some powers were built or mastered in combat like narutos training Sasuke awaking his own myangeko sharigan against bee, otherwise another good one was naruto finally becoming friends with kurama

2. It's been otherwise bad given how some like mainly the uchiha powers just kept flying out of nowhere, it was a simple copying eye at first and then came the amterasus and tsyukiomi, but then we got the sussano, then izanagni than izanami than that decades long genjutsu to activate from shusui, then Kamui comes up as connected, I think Kishi out a but too much in this kekkei geneki

3 it's been ugly how he gave naruto so many training sessions when others could have had time, like giving more notion to Sakura's gaining the seal beyond just the slight she may pass tsunade someday. I mean fans did in respect for years envision sakura could gain those abilities but it really would have helped if he put more out there,

[James S Cassidy]

I would probably need an entire forum page to say what I like and what I find bad about this story. Maybe I'll work on it in the future but not right now, and of course I would limit myself.

 

Heh, go for it. Whatever comes to mind and whenever you have time. You can even keep doing it as chapters come out. If there is something you like about the chapter, put down something you hate. If you find something you hate about the chapter, find something you love. It is an exercise to help us appreciate both the good and bad points of this manga and this story so that we have balance in our views.

 

 

Let me do one my own at the moment:

The Good: Sakura's character.
I love how her story plays out and how emotional attachment I have with her. I feel every choice she makes and I can connect with her on so many levels. She is not a flawless character, but her flaws give her a much better character and yet she doesn't have too many flaws to just bog her down. She has succeeded as much as she has failed.

The Bad: Sasuke's character. (surprised?)
His character is just all over the place and you don't know what or who he is anymore. I can't connect with him and at times he seems almost like a puppet. He has no clear transition and his story has more holes in it than swiss cheese. Some tell me he is supposed to be unpredictable, but I don't feel he is executed that well even if this is supposed to be the case. I have seen unpredictable characters before who have a much better written life style like Deadpool.

The Ugly: Mifune vs Hanzo fight
Was it really necessary? I feel it was dragged out and was just a waste of time. It didn't really add to the story so much as it just expanded it. The fight as well not have even happened and the story would continue no different than on the path it was on currently. I feel this was a missed opportunity for a better fight to occur.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 April 2014 - 05:01 PM.

[K9ofChaos]

The good: the nuggets of world building such as info on clans, villages, jutsu, organizations, jinchuriki, kage and the elemental kekkei genkai/tota are things that make me enjoy this series. Every time I learn something new via exposition, I crave for more info in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

The bad: The filler in the anime. It's because of filler that I've stopped watching the anime altogether. I just don't like watching a dragged out storyline with the sole purpose of giving the manga time to get ahead of the anime. Why can't anime studios take the American approach of making season length story arc, wait a couple of months, then start off where the last season left off? Though they would probably have to wait until the manga is way ahead as well, but most manga don't get anime adaptations right after just two or three chapters anyways so I don't see that as becoming a major issue. (Not sure if this counts or not, but it's the only thing I could think of for this category.)

 

 

 

The ugly: the "friendship" between Naruto and Sasuke. If your supposed friend abandoned your hometown to seek vengeance and has actively tried to murder not only you, but your closest friends and loved ones, then that "friend" is not worth having in your life and you would be better off ditching that horrible friend who never cared about you to begin with. What makes it even worse is that Kishimoto is trying to make the Uchiha these sympathetic tortured souls when all they really are is power hungry despots who severely lack the skills necessary to cope with loss and still function in society. The Uchiha's solution to death is to go on a killing spree and make the lives of everyone around them miserable. Naruto would be better off if he just killed Sasuke and moved on with his life.

[BlueStarSaber]

Let me try with Hinata.

The good when she fought side by side with neji in the war showed she is cable of being a good ninja.

The bad she keeps thinking about Naruto.

The ugly her falling down Mr kishi must really hate her fan base or something.

[Inferno180]

Guess the mifune vs hanzo was a big lipped alligator moment it doesn't really add it's importance to the story overall.

That brings me to another topic:

Other organizations, or groups, how Kishi handled the use of other organizations in the series or lore as it went on.

The good: we learned a lot about the akaskuti and it's purposes and that not everyone in it was a soleless monster.

The bad: organizations like the 7 swordsmen of the mist were hardly mentioned, never seen until the war arc. Seeing all of these, Kishi could honestly have thrown a second arc or 3 before the war arc began expanding his universe a bit more before going to this long war.

The ugly: the cloud, mist, and stone villages. We know the leaf village, it's the main setting we know the sand village it's been in and out of the story at times,but the other 3 only became notable once the other 3 kage were introduced. Kishi has made some development with the other Kages, but they don't have that notion of being well important in the long run. I mean there was a hygua deal attached to the cloud village but that passed, there was the deal of both the 7 swordsmen and what exactly happened to the mist village when yaguara died given the releasing isobu to the wild is a bigger mystery. Also ohnoki because he is old,while Kishi did give a bit of notion in his end being experienced to what Madara could do, it's a bit saddening to not see more of what the little guy is capable of to the historical aspect of the villages, he even knew if hiruzen and was about as old as him, but Kishi didn't expand on the other villages or stuff with the kage as he could have.

[Hanabi]

good - diverse powers, diverse characters

bad - only uchihas matter

ugly - kishi can't handle large cast

[KnS]

Nice idea, James.

 

The Good: Naruto.  I love him so much.  I haven't pulled for a hero to win this much in a long time.  He is such a loving, selfless, sweet kid who deserves to be happy.  Every time I think of the expression on his face when Sakura said she loved him... my heart melts a little.  I totally want to hug the stuffing out of him.

 

The Bad: Sasuke.  Everything I just said about Naruto?  Yeah, the opposite.  I loathe Sasuke and everything he stands for, and just the sight of him gives me heartburn.  I don't find him a compelling character, not even as a villain.  He's the cold, wet, filthy, stinking blanket that does its best to smother the spark of joy that is Naruto.

 

The Ugly: The possibility (fact, I'm afraid) that Naruto will have to share even a whiff of the credit for doing the right thing and saving the world with Sasuke.  

[Nate River]

The Good: Kakashi. I used to hate him, but he's one of my favorite characters. I'd put him ahead of Naruto. One of the few people who has shown a willingness to be the big boy and do what is necessary even if it's unpleasant. It's why I place him above Naruto

The Bad: Sasuke's character shield. I like the character, but Kishimoto's insistence on protecting him has lead to inconsistent development and stunted his character growth.

The Ugly: The fact that the redemption story constantly comes at the expense of accountability and responsibility. This has done so much damage to the story all across part 2. Characters. Plot lines. Nothing is spared from this.

[ioria]

Humm okay, let's see...

 

• The good - Lot of characters to be fond of.
• The bad   - 99% of them became fodders or got killed or were forgotten for the sake of the hero-saves-it-all plot.
• The ugly  - Gaara becoming Naruto's worshipping groupie. Brainwashed by his manly new powers. Roarrr

 

• The good - Symbolism and recurring visual themes; adding a touch of drama everywhere (also useful to theorize crazy events taking place in the future.. ).
• The bad *AND* the ugly:  impaled birds  

[James S Cassidy]

 

Nice idea, James.

 

Thank you. ^_^

Ummm this one is about Hinata

The Good: The core of her character:
Her core and the initial Hinata is not a bad one and at times she does have her moments to shine. When she does it it is good to see her story beyond her inner monologue about Naruto. When you realize all the struggles of both her and Neji go through it makes you want to learn about her more. I want to see what the Hyuga clan is really like and expand it more in to their history.

The Bad: Reduced to Pairing Fodder
This is the whole reason why all the good Hinata does have goes to waste more often than not. All she ever thinks, does, breathes, and eats is Naruto. Naruto this....Naruto that. All the potential that she once had has been reduced to her being nothing more than a pairing fodder-nin who is probably one of the weakest out of the K-11. It really makes me sad that such a character goes to waste and all she is seen for is her love for Naruto and her giant boobs. Nothing else becomes a redeeming quality because she is never really seen pushing it on her own. It would have been cool for her and Neji to reconcile and make a promise with each other that one day maybe the clan can be one again.

The Ugly: She drags the story with her fangirling.

I call it fangirling. Sure, it is not as bad as say Karin's, but it is still pretty bad. The fact is every time she is on screen every other character has to take a hit in development. You can't raise her bar so you literally have to lower every other character's standards to make hers look higher and for what? Moments that Naruto never really brings up again and gets unresolved. She is not really that important to the story and most of her scenes could be taken out with the story being 99% unaffected. I would like her to be expanded more, but not at the expense of every other character on the screen.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 April 2014 - 08:16 PM.

[luffyq1]

The good: Sakura obviously. The only human element I find in this show. Her dying love for Sasuke that's somewhat hindered her in some aspects of the story, but she has made strives to overcome those obstacles. No kitten overpowered linage, no power-ups given to her, just good ol' fashion hard work. Starting from her insecurities and her mistakes, the realism is one of the reasons why she's my favorite character.

 

The bad: What Kns said x100. Whenever I see a panel of Sasuke I have to open up another tab just to prepare myself for the crying and whining that is about to occur. This character is the most inconsistent thing to be created. After finishing his one and only purpose of killing Itachi, it has been a never ending struggle to figure out what the hell is the character still doing in this manga. He wants to hear the cries of the citizens of the leaf village, to wanting to govern over them and protect them. How am I suppose to take this character seriously, much less like him?

 

The ugly: Naruto's pining for Sasuke. This is by far the most annoying aspect of this series for me. I mean, how long has this been stretched out? I understand Naruto's will to never give up, but at some point there has to be a line you can't cross. Almost killing Sakura, threatening to terrorize your home and now he wants to take his dream away from him. The character only goes as far as Naruto's will to never to give up on him. This "bromace" has ruined the manga for me because not only does Sasuke not want to be his friend, but it's like what ever Sasuke does or say it goes in one ear and out the other. No matter what he'll always love Sasuke, even if he spits and tramples on his dreams. It's basically what Itachi said. 

[James S Cassidy]

This is amazing, guys, keep going. ^_^

Rock Lee

The Good: He is such a BA.
This is what Naruto would be if he didn't have Sasuke pulling him down. Ever the optimist, he always strives to be better and never gives up until he dies. He is like a ray of sunshine in a darkened forest and at times almost seem better than Naruto. He respects everyone including his enemy even when they don't respect him. I want to see him fight more. I want to see drunken Rock Lee again knock out Madara.

The Bad: Sometimes too comedic.

There are a few times where the joke goes too far and Rock Lee seems more embarrassingly annoying. It's not all the time, but it is pretty obvious when he does get to this point.

The Ugly: Are we sure Might Gai isn't his dad?
I mean, sure there are things that says he isn't, but they look exactly alike, they both can't use ninjutsu, and are the greatest Taijutsu masters in the whole series. Maybe Gai had a fling with a girl and forgot about it. Given his track record, and his poor memory skills, I would not be surprised. XD

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 April 2014 - 08:35 PM.

[KnS]

The Good:  Gaara.  I love everything about his story, but especially the gothic element.  The focus on Gaara in Part I is one of my favorite parts of the entire story.  It's not just that Gaara's initial characterization was so intriguing -- someone so young yet so dark and vicious and tortured -- but Kishimoto rendered him in such an appealing way.  There's something about Gaara's look, in particular, that lends itself to this medium.  The malevolent look of his eyes from beneath the umbrella when he said, "I'll make it rain blood."  He's wicked cool, that guy.  And he still is, even though he has been reborn a hero.  His quiet strength and the allusion to a somewhat priestly soul is utterly fascinating.  He is everything Sasuke could have been, but isn't.

 

The Bad: Hinata.  I hate to say it so plainly, but to me she is a pathetic little thing.  I feel sorry for her, actually, and her father ought to be slapped for trying to make her into a ninja when she clearly doesn't have the skill or the temperament for the role.  Her timid, kitten-wandering-into-traffic persona might be endearing to some, but she makes me want to HULKSMASH.  I want someone to lead her off the battlefield, give her a lollypop and a pat on the head, and leave her out of the fray.  I so wish she would embrace all the reasons she has to live, and ways she could shine, besides chasing after a boy who will never love her.

 

The Ugly: Jiraiya's death.  I don't think anything else needs to be said. 

[James S Cassidy]

Wow, KnS, you're pulling no punches. XDD

[KnS]

Wow, KnS, you're pulling no punches. XDD

 

Well, I've said these same things before, more or less.  They're just my unvarnished opinions, and worth exactly what was paid for them -- nothing, lol.