32 replies to this topic

[BakeNeko-Chan]

All right then, let's give this a try.

 

The Good: Kishimoto can write some very good emotional pieces when he puts his mind to it, giving depth and complexity to characters, storyline and relationships. This, more than anything, is what keeps me reading even when I feel frustrated or confused by some of his plot and storytelling choices. There are some characters here that I just really adore and I can't bring myself to let go of them.

 

The Bad: The oh-so-great "bond" between Naruto and Sasuke. It's horribly forced and contrived through an endless string of parallels and the cosmic connection by way of reincarnation and destiny to compensate for an atrocious lack of development. I just can't bring myself to buy into it with any conviction.

 

The Ugly: More or less what Nate said about Kishimoto's portrayal of redemption in the story. Redemption without accountability only brushes the larger issues under the rug to avoid dealing with them. Kishimoto appears to not want to damage the message of forgiveness and second chances in the story themes by addressing the responsibility that should come with the choices that the characters -- especially villains -- make. It's a huge copout.

[Derock]

Okay, let me give this a try:

 

The Good: Character Development. Especially for Naruto, Sakura and Shikamaru to name a few. This is Kishimoto's skill in terms of writing characters and relationships, to give his characters depth and complexity. When focusing on a certain character, they aren't bland to read about.

 

*Also the artwork. I praised Kishimoto in this department because he has came a long way when he first started. From the beginning of Part 1 to now, that's an evolution. Compare how he drew Naruto on his pilot to Naruto going to be 17 years old. If the whole manga is in color each week...

 

The Bad: Sasuke and the Uchihas in general. I swear, the whole plot is all about the Uchihas and how God-Tier their power is in this series. Although I praised Kishimoto for complex character development, but there's a line of saying, "Enough is enough!"

 

Now about Sasuke, his character is all over the place. Many people said he hasn't had a clear goal and I agree. Plus the panel time Sasuke was given. There was way too much focus on him, not to mention powers he kept receiving out of nowhere.

 

Then there's that forced "bond" with Naruto. Majority of this was going borderline towards the point if Naruto and Sasuke were besties and eventually will be lovers. Not to mention because of the storyline, there were hardly any scenes of the two actually being real friends to make it believable.  This rivalry is the worst I had ever seen.

 

The Ugly: Lack of world and plot building. Stuff about 7 Swordsmen of the Mist, the other 3 countries until the Kage Summit, the rest of the Jinchuriki... instead of focusing about Sasuke, his "problems" and "All My Powerful Uchihas" (while battling Itachi was crucial, it was still very long), those could've been the sub-plot of the series while Naruto and the gang battling Akatsuki. Or at least during Part 1. I had said before with the Cloud, Rock, and Mist, we should had seen those who's near or at the same age as Naruto's peers during the time instead of focusing on Leaf, Sand and lesser countries.

 

Plus, inconsistent choices and themes. Redemption plot is one of them.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Interesting thread. I'll give it a go.

 

The Good:

 

1). Hard-work/Determination Themes--- One of the things I've always loved about Naruto is how the make the main character have to earn and work everything rather than just have it handed to them on a silver platter. It makes the end result more meaningful and might even inspire some real-life people to work harder. I'm particularly lazy by nature, so when I watch/read Naruto it sometimes makes me want to be a little less lazy lol.

2). NaruSaku's development--- Of course. This should come as no surprise.  I love how many different stages Naruto and Sakura went through, both have periods of being selfish with other and then progressing to selflessness, and how much more of real feel it gets when it comes to real life relationships. I like changing and development to this caliber so I will always praise Kishi for doing this.

3). Sakura's development--- I will never get over how impressed I am by Sakura's emotional development throughout the series. She started with almost zero likable traits, shallow and selfish to the core. But you see her mature over the series into this selfless, good-hearted, realistic, and mature female character that seems almost like a different person. The way Kishi handled Sakura's maturity is absolutely astounding to me.

4). Bonds--- The friendship, parent, and teacher-student bonds are something I love to see. I like how focused this series is on friendship and relationships because those particular things have appealed to me for a long time. There are some exceptions over the bonds I hate, but I'm more or less content with the bonds message.

5). Development--- I'm most impressed by Sakura's, but the character development in Naruto is usually pretty solid and satisfying. Even if they don't always change for the best (ex. Sasuke, Hinata), you have a pretty well-detailed account of how they progressed to where they are now and how they started. Sasuke's fall to darkness, for example, was pretty good. It wasn't immediate and you saw what stages he went through until he reached the point of blind hatred towards Konoha (pre-War Arc anyway).

6). Deep meanings--- This manga/anime isn't a shallow one. It's just played for laughs and proving how strong you become. You have very deep messages of self-sacrifice, world wars, paths to leadership, and how you should treat those you love. My favorite will always be: "When you have someone to protect, that's when you become truly strong".

 

The Bad:

 

1). Asspulls--- The level of asspulls in this series, whether be a plot event or new jutsu, is ridiculous. I don't like asspulls in general because I always want things to be done in a satisfying manner and when something with no foreshadowing or logic happens, my interest turns into a big WTF. Some perfect examples I can think of is Naruto's insane amount of jutsu the moment he got the Nine-tails' Chakra mode (more specifically how he automatically knew what he had and how to use it), Itachi's Izanami, and Sasuke's annoying hax power-ups out of nowhere (Example ... hawk summon).

2). Sakura Neglect--- As satisfied as I am with her emotional development, I cannot say the same for her number of battles and her lack of plot involvement to degree Sasuke has with Naruto. Naruto and Sasuke are always the stars while Sakura is pushed back to the point some people see her a side character. I feel like, as Naruto's heroine, she have at least nearly equal involvement as Sasuke (who isn't even supposed to be the main character).

3). Team Taka--- I'm one of those few who still see no point to Team Taka. I love Suigetsu, but it's very obvious they will never be as important as Team 7 and don't see why they need to show up so much. To give Sasuke a team? Well, okay. But like I said: they aren't Team 7. You easily get rid of Team Taka now and it wouldn't affect the plot too much. They're just ... pointless.

4). Villain Treatment--- I'm tired of all of Naruto's villains converting to the good side. It's cool at first, but now it's seriously getting old. When you just feel like every villain will be "good", then they weren't really an engaging villain and they're harder to take seriously. If there was just one villain with no hope of redemption and just evil, then awesome. That'd be something new and way more interesting.

5). Neji's death --- Still disappointed with it's execution. Not only was it sudden and rushed, but it's basically condemning Neji to suffering the same fate as his father instead of changing the Hyuga cycle by changing the Clan. Maybe even becoming a head leader, a side branch member. That seemed a far more satisfactory end to Neji's character than that.  

6). Tenten--- This character is literally there to take up panels. We know absolutely nothing about her except she fights with weapons and if Kishi's going to keep her around with Team Guy, then just gave her more character depth and personality. I swear, she is literally one of the most pointless characters in Naruto. What is there to her??

 

The Ugly:

 

1). Sasuke's Development Post-Kage Summit Arc: Just this. It irritates the hell out of me how Kishi has been handling Sasuke as of late. Nothing he does makes sense anymore. Sasuke deciding to "protect the village for Itachi" is still complete BS. I don't even hate Sasuke, but that came out of nowhere. I didn't like Evil Sasuke, but at least he was more consistent. Still obsessed with revenge, something that was supposed to be solved by Naruto. I still feel this would've turned out a lot better if Sasuke attacked the village and that was how Naruto vs. Sasuke would take place. All the foreshadowing had been supporting that so why? I don't know what Kishi was thinking when he decided to do that.

2). Karin: Out of all the Naruto characters, I'm pretty sure she's the one that got the worst. She's a character I can barely ever take seriously and her love for Sasuke is pathetic IMO. Her quick forgiveness after Sasuke tried to kill her was so degrading and embarrassing. Whatever Karin's background is, I would've thought her of all people would show more self-respect. That doesn't mean she couldn't still love him, but at least make him work for forgiveness.

3). Sakura's love for Sasuke--- This doesn't even need explaining. I've never been able to understand what it was about Sasuke that made her fall that hard for him, even when he was half-decent. He treated her pretty indifferently most of the time. Sakura didn't understand Sasuke. Sakura didn't interact meaningfully with him mutually. Sakura's love is baseless. And you always get flashbacks of her blushing at Sasuke, showing how shallow it looked. There wasn't a reason for such strong feelings and there still isn't.

4). Naruto's Sasuke Obsession--- I consider SN my brotp, but the way their relationship is shoved down our throats and overshadowed by practically every other relationship Naruto has irks me. He is literally obsessed with Sasuke to the point I sometimes feel like Naruto doesn't consider any of his other relationships just as important (from a writing-standpoint). Sasuke has down awful things to him recently, but somehow Naruto considers his bond with Sasuke more important than everything else. There's never a thought to Sakura or Shikamaru or Gaara nearly as much as it's always about Sasuke. Like I said, I like SasuNaru but not when it's at the expense of all Naruto's other bonds.

5). Hinata: As a non-Hinata hater, I would still say this is pretty self-explanatory. Hinata may be nice and sweet, but she has no substance but her love for Naruto. She has tunnel vision with nothing underneath. It's just "Naruto." It's not cute, it's detrimental to her character because there is nothing else to her. Shouldn't Hinata care more about being heiress than Naruto's acknowledgment? Apparently Hinata doesn't think so since she thinks of Naruto in practically every panel.

6). Reincarnation of Sage's Sons--- More recent, but equally as annoying. Naruto shouldn't have been written a reincarnation. All this "brothers, destiny, fighting" crap is ridiculous and heavily contradicts one of themes of the manga (Making your own destiny). Naruto wasn't supposed to be special. He was supposed to be a loser who excelled because of his hard-work, not because he was destined to start out a loser and then became a hero. It really takes away the meaning in his accomplishments.

[ramenanmitsu]

Good: Character driven story in part 1

Part 1 was great because the characters were making the story. Kishi focused on showing the character's inner thoughts and how each event gradually changed and developed them. The relationship between the characters were done beautifully.  

 

Bad: Plot driven story in part 2

In Part 2, it's the plot that is making the story. The characters have become puppets to keep the plot going. This plot driven story has made characters look inconsistent in their goals and purpose. Characters are taking actions because the plot requires them to, which makes them unattractive and hard to sympathize. 

 

Now, it's hard to understand the character's feelings and the relationship they have with other characters. Most of the time, the only valid proof we get are parallels and blunt narration from a "third-person" character, instead of gradual developments we had in part 1. 

 

Ugly: Irrelevant New Characters. Team not 7, Sai, Yamato, and etc. 

It's fine when new characters appear as villains, but when they appear as protagonists, they shouldn't be taking more importance than the other older characters such as Shikamaru, Iruka, Neji, and Rock Lee. At least, not until Kishi has completed developing them instead of leaving them half-assed to disappear. Now I don't know the purpose of BOTH the older characters (rookie 9, Iruka) and the new ones (Team not 7, Sai, Yamato).

[James S Cassidy]

Good stuff, guys. Very good stuff. I am sure this was all said and done before, but having it said in one area more or less is still interesting. Plus this make a good outlet from time to time, don't you think?

[Nate River]

The Good: World Building Part 1. I think this is probably where he was at his best. It's an expansive and interesting world. There is so much that can be done with it. The story could be told on the individual mirco level (like the first arc) or go broader like in Part 2. The possibilities are limitless. Many of the early rules make sense. Even the tech inclusion is such that, while I'm question why they have some things but not others, works so well that I don't even care if it makes sense from a tech standpoint. It works for the story.

The Bad: World Building Part 2: It's been particularly problematic since the Kage Summit. I hate to say this because the decision is defensible for the most part (it just didn't work out). As the conflict went from their trials as ninjas to the Naruto-Sasuke conflict the world actually expanded significantly to many people who have no meaningful dog in that fight. I think so much of it was just to tell us for the sake of telling us with the result that it drags the story and has compounded the problem of too many underdeveloped characters. For example, I understand the info about Rain because that played into Nagato and why he did what he did. On the other hand, the Mizukage and Tsukikage feel like characters that were brought into just to say, okay we know who they are and now we can eliminate all the conflict between the nations.

The inclusion of almost everything related to the Six Paths and Reincarnation answered questions nobody was asking and took the story from a personal conflict between to the to a universal one that now seems driven by destiny and fate. Personal reasons are better than broad generic ones and all the excess world building since Part 2 has added a bunch of info that hasn't done anything to aid the core conflict. It's tended to do the opposite. I think the story is weaker for it.

The Ugly: Hinata. I put this here for two reasons. Character stagnation. For all the attempts at pairing bait she and their relationship (romantic or otherwise) never goes anywhere. It's the constant regurgiation of the same thing in different forms. If he's going to bother with her as pairing bait, develop her and the relationship when she shows up. The second is that she is only used for pairing bait and nothing else. This has tended to have some unhappy (and I think unintentional implications. Kishimoto never lets her leave this territory and I think it hurts her character by making it look selfish and myopic when I don't think that is the goal. And I like, KnS, have a hard time seeing someone with her temperment even wanting to do what a ninja is expected to do.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Let me try this.

The Good : Naruto's personal quest of saving Sasuke, the story was bad on part 1 because the characters were cool, he moved the audience on this quest of bringing Sasuke back, on which was victim of chaos and hatred and how the world was guilty of his friends problems, while being the prisoner of hatred, Sasuke rejected and was hostile towards Naruto but Naruto never gave up to save his friend, and despite having lots of obstacles on the way like Akatsuki who was also after his friend.
To show his love for Naruto he treatens to kill him and take the hokage seat which only best friends can do.

The Bad : The characters, Kakashi was one of the worst characters i've seen, he struggled his whole life and lost his companions on during the war, but never did much aside from being a cool character, he should had been shallow along with some villains of Akatsuki, or had a tunnel vision like Hinata which is a great character IMO, her personal quest of being with Naruto is honorable, most important than being head of her clan on which serves to no purpose.

The Ugly : I love this world full of contries but with any concept of nationalism.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 29 April 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[Inferno180]

Heres one, Sasuke:

 

The good: I honestly liked Sasukes fighting style, in part 2 with fire and lightning styles to boot, he had a neat setup, I liked how he used his own sword and imbubed it with electric. Fire style was always good one too. I did enjoy the sussano as well.

 

The bad: always needing revenge, on itachi, on the leaf, on the ninja system

 

The ugly: his attitude, he just doesnt care much, even for working with naruto right now, he still wants to end him along with changing the ninja system, he doesnt care who tries to stop him.

[Kakashi-Sensei]

Cool topic serioulsy i like it ! let me try this

 

The good : 

1. The Naruto series part 1 ( Not shippuden ). Simply because the story wasen't base with Naruto finding Sasuke. They were alot of characters spotlight, diversity in the missions/action ( Zabuza arc, Chunnin exam, Orochimaru invasion ) and the final arc was by far my favorite arc of all time in Naruto. The 1on1 fight with Neji, Chooji ( Both should have died in my opinion ), Kiba, Lee and Naruto was great.

 

2. The fights ! On the anime it gave me chills.

- Sakura and Chiyo vs Sasori

- Team Shikamaru and Kakashi vs Hidan n Kakazu

- Pain vs Naruto

- Itachi vs Sasuke

 

The Bad

1.Naruto shippuden. Focusing only into team 7 and finding Sasuke is odd. The other cool characthers didin't had much developpement.

 

2. Most part of the 4th greath war + Edo tensei spammed everywhere. I dont know, but seeing all the cool characters comming back like it's nothing kind of loose the meaning of death. Also, this arc as gone for too long, i dont know how many years we are in to it but i feel like it's time to change.

 

3. Sasuke's character. He is good at the begining, wants to kill everyone at some point, and now wants to become Hokage ? Maybe he's bipolar or something...

 

The Ugly

1. The reincarnation thing. For me Naruto was always the '' reject, idiot, non talented guy '' who had to work more then the others to be accepted and respected. With hard work he succeed to become really strong and he became a hero by deafeating Pain. Now we learn that it was destined to be that way, because one of the six path son himself reincarned into him ? Ankward...

Edited by Kakashi-Sensei, 29 April 2014 - 04:39 PM.

[Inferno180]

Heres something I liked:

 

The battles

 

The good: I liked how many of the battles even today have some kind of mechanic the heroes need to work around, as they trade blows with the bad guy, they learn about their powers. I liked how this was present in many fights, espcially part 2. Sakura learned of Sasori's posion and attack patterns, Shikamaru learned of Hidan's blood link techniques and how he needed a seal to use it, Kakashi learned of Kakazu's 5 elemental hearts. A fair portion of the cast learned of obito's space time techiques over the series from the time he taunted them in the itachi pursuit arc (sakura discovered the power) to the long fight before the SA arrives (kakashi found that the eyes shared the same plane and attacks could be shifted between the dimensional planes). I liked how Naruto had to figure out the 6 powers of each Pain and use his spare sage clones wisely, his fight was good at parts when he remembered how too much nature chakra could turn one to a stone animal and how he defeated pains chakra absorbing path. This was even in the time with Jubbito when Ninjutsu was ineffective against the juubi host, but not natural chakra since as the ten tails was part of a nature itself, a natural force, it couldn't defend itself from itself.

 

The Bad: Too many fights with sasuke, I mean for all means Naruto got his share too, but Sasuke got too many. He has fought Haku, the noodle man, gaara (lost it though), itachi (lost), naruto (won but ran), team 7 (reunion arc), Orochimaru (sick orochimaru), Deidara, Itachi (real battle), Bee, Ay+Mei+Ohnoki, Danzo, team 7 again, Kabuto, the ten tails, obito, and now madara. Sasuke has gotten way too much screentime on fights and most of them, usually for the wrong reasons.

 

The ugly; too few fights with females and other characters. I mean Sakura's fight with Sasori and Tsunade's against Orochimaru (with Jiraya) and against Madara are some of the best battles in the whole series, the problem though is that them and others like Shikamaru or the rest of the K11 haven't gotten a chance to show off their battle abilities. Hinata has been absent, Ino was only support against Kakuzu and against edo Asuma, tenten only had an offscreen failure to temari, Kiba had his own fight against Sakon and Ukon but nothing since then, Shino is in the same unused pit as tenten, Choji only got his moments in his fight with Jirobo and when he nailed Asuma and grew up. Otherwise he hadn't given Sakura a good battle since Sasori, I mean stuff like killing the neji zetsu, pains centipede, and her actions in the war have been great but I wanted to see her have more of her own main battles aside from a simple morals fight against Ino and serious action against Sasori. There were many good ones she could have done, fight against Kabuto in the sasuke and sai arc, helped Shikamaru with Hidan (along with Sai), faced one of pains bodies (but the body recovers out of sight), faced team taka at some point, in the war as well there was a golden chance for her to fight in against the 7 swordsmen or even an edo chiyo. Sadly these didnt happen and we only get the occasional fight with her against some filler villian in the anime.

[James S Cassidy]

I got one:

The Good: Love is power
In this manga, Naruto learns the value of love and respect through his peers and family. He can change people through the power of love and show that this world isn't all bad despite having misfortune. The fact that he is willing to change people this way means that he really is the hero people need. Sure it gets corny sometimes, but perhaps that is the point. When Naruto learned of his own family like his father and mother, he understood love better than anyone. That is ironic that this boy can learn love is powerful through his parents, while everyone else takes their parents for granted. Especially Sasuke who even basically just dumps on his own brother and never really appreciated him and all he had done. When Naruto met Kushina, it was probably one of the most powerful moments n the series and it showed how family and friends really make a difference.

The Bad: The bonds.
The bond concept is not a bad thing, but the bonds Naruto shares is a weird one. The bonds he had with Sasuke just seem to trump all other bonds and at times I fear Naruto wold willingly sacrifice everything else just for Sasuke's bond. A bond that not even Sasuke cherishes. Sasuke wants to severe those bonds and has shown many of times, even just recently, that they are useless to him. He doesn't want them, but Naruto continues to believe that Sasuke cherishes them more than anything. I guess this is just the way Kishi has portrayed Sasuke and his involvement in the story, but it is really starting to make Naruto look gullible and stupid. It is the only problem I have with Naruto that really drives me nuts.

The Ugly: Real choices.
Naruto really had an easy time with choices in this manga. There was always a good and bad choice. When it comes to Sasuke however, there is not right or wrong choice...there is only choice itself. I have to wonder really if Naruto had the choice of either everyone dying in his village, the town burned to the ground, and even Sakura lying in a pool of blood OR Sasuke....what would he choose? Is Sasuke more important than the entire village or would Naruto be willing to sacrifice Sasuke for the rest of the town? I really want to see that in the end. I want to see Naruto make that super hard choice and not have a clear way out.

Trigun played with this with Vash always wanting to find a way out and Wolfwood says to him that sometimes there is no other way out. You either have to kill and save the greater good or you don't and everyone dies. It really is a story done right when it comes to this kind of concept.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 May 2014 - 08:11 PM.

[merryGOflava]

okay I'll give it a go.

 

the good: Sakura- she's a cool character who isn't your typical heroine, she tries her best and has achieved alot for someone who hasn't come from a clan like Naruto or Sasuke.

 

the bad: Sakura- she's awesome....but she isn't given the spotlight she deserves...she's been on Sasuke too long (even if she's over him now) and has only had one awesome fight...

 

the ugly: the lack of awesome kickbutt girls, and how the only girls in the konoha 9 have ridiculous crushes. Even Tsunade doesn't seem to be on any of the other previous kages level....

[James S Cassidy]

Okay I got one, but it is about Kishimoto's writing.

 

The Good: Everything that doesn't have to do with Sasuke.
I have to say that when the story is not centered around Sasuke, Kishimoto's writing ability is amazing. There is progression, the characters get better and actually develop, and the story has a nice flow with it. We see the characters transition from one state to another and freeflowing form and it works. Naruto progresses from a class clown to the hero through hardwork and dedication proving that even the "rejects" can have their moments. Even if you don't like everything, you can at least agree it has a nice flow and at least the hero is actually the badass hero we want him to be. The Pein arc shows how Naruto can and has fought and trained hard for the powers he uses. I wish he did more with those powers, but I guess it is what it is. Maybe we can make fanfics where he can do those abilities later on which can be a good thing and not interfere with the story layout.

The Bad: When the story's main focus is Sasuke.

This is where Kishi has huge problems. Whenever the story stops to focus Sasuke and his "travels" everything else seems to just halt or even go backwards. The main character's development seems to just landslide and eventually at times almost makes him look like a gullible whipping boy. Other characters just stop their roles or get neglected because it has to be all about Sasuke. Every one just suffers and the story has to make huge liberties in order to accommodate for it. It is ridiculous. It has been the number one grief of the story so far. I can understand why Sasuke is what he is and does what he does and that's okay, but the truth is is that Kishimoto just never did it right or rushed telling his story just so he can join in what every other character is doing now. It is a sad thing and while I can accept Naruto cherishing Sasuke's bond and such, it is hard for me believing it or taking it seriously because of how Sasuke is portrayed all the time. Hell, how anything is portrayed because Sasuke's story just kind of throws a huge nail in everything.

The Ugly: Hinata
When you realize that Hinata's story, no matter how bad it may be, actually makes more sense than Sasuke's story.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 05 May 2014 - 04:30 AM.