Nate River

 

I AM EXCITED AS HELL!!!!!     Who's With me!?  

 

You should be. The Crossbell Arc is really good. 

 

If you can't wait that long, here is a way to play it in English now: https://geofront.esterior.net

 

They've created a patch that can be used over a legit copy of the Japanese version. There site should have everything you need (or tell you how to get it). Ao/Azure is one my favorites along with Sky 3 and Steel 3. 

 

The downside is that probably means no Hajimare until 2023. :(

It seems that Player and Xehanort's relationship is similar to that of Ventus and Sora's arrangement in BBS, as it's explained that Player would be "a part" of a new heart, rather than just straight up reincarnated. Both Ventus and Xehanort have mentioned (in KH3 and Dark Road respectively) that they have memories of people and places that they don't recognize (from Sora and Player), and Xehanort even ranted in BBS that he lived through the Keyblade War(which is obviously Player's memory influencing him).

 

I recalled the visuals, but didn't remember the exact words from the ending and its been 2 years since I played KH3 (even longer for BBS). But now that you mention it, I do recall Xehanort saying that. I'd been fine either way as it doesn't change my opinion of anything. I still think if they wanted the rehab tour they should have started sooner and at some point Player will reunite with the leaders in some form. 

 

"A part" is a bit vague, but given everything, I suspect your right in that its there but remains distinct as opposed to combining with it.

 

KHUX's story is one of my favorites of the series and its near criminal that it had to be confined to a mobile gatcha game. 

 

EDIT: As for Luxu and Brain, I have no pet theory and am open to all three being wrong. About the only thing I have any confidence in is that Luxu probably offers him a way out and is how Brain ends up in Scala. As a result, I don't think he forcibly possessed Brain. If any possession took place, it was likely agreed to by Brain. I also haven't written off the idea that they are one in the same despite the obvious paradox it creates.

 

EDIT 2: One other thing, Brain's arrival in Scala is known all the way down to the timing and I can think of only two people person who'd been able to pass that information on.

For this post I'm going to assume people have played all the KH console games but not the mobile ones and will try to provide as much context as I can. At the end, I will provided a link to youtube videos that have all the cutscenes if you want to watch it.

 

The mobile game ends service in like two weeks. The main one anyway. As part of it, there is a secondary game called Dark Road, which is about Xehanort and how he became what he was in the main games. Im not sure the intent on this one as it has not been around like. The rest of the plot with be dropped in September and will end service around that time. Once the games end service, I believe you will still be able to download the app and watch the plot in theatre mode. I think those who played it and saved there data will have far more customization options for the character than those who didn't, but otherwise I don't think there is much of a different. 

 

https://twitter.com/Roboloid

 

The pinned tweet at the top contains links to the full story. One has the Disney cutscenes one does not. Links to the final 3 quests are the end of the post.

 

Just so you know I'm going off memory, I apologize if I make any mistakes or miss anything, but I think its a pretty good summary of what happened. You should watch the full story when you can (i don't think you need the Disney parts but I'm not 100% sure(.

 

I really hope this makes it to console one day. It's really a good story.  Needless to say: SPOILERS ABOUND BELOW. 

 

Watching the story and reading the summary aren't even close to the same, but if you don't want to be spoiled stop reading now.

 

Okay, so here goes:

 

KH Chi

 

The mobile game actually has existed as three games.

 

All three games take place in Daybreak town. You can actually seen the ruins of it underneath in Scala Ad Caelum in KH3 (I think).

 

There is the KH Chi which was a browser game released in Japan only. It details the events up to the keyblade war (and its conclusion). Back Cover basically summarizes this game, but stops just before the war. In that version, the player character is invited to join the dandelions, but declines and ultimately participates in the Keyblade war. The Keyblade war begins when Ava confronts Luxu and he tells her something along the lines of that the master wasn't worried about this world, but what comes after and something in regards to the traitor. When still have no idea what he says only that it prompts Ava attack him and set of the war.

 

In the war, the player fights 4 of the 5 foretellers (the exception being that the don't fight the one who leads there union). I was in Anguis, so I fought everyone but Invi. At the end the player collapses and is approached by Ephemer (who you see in Back Cover and Kh3) and Skuld: Two friends of the player and whom the player has been looking for (especially Ephemer, who had failed to show up at a meeting with the player and isn't seen until the end). Both Ephemer and Skuld are dandelions and Ephemer's recruitment into them is why he "goes missing" so to speak. What happens here is not explicit. If Chi were the only game in this set, the reasonable conclusion is that you die, but it's not so that not what happens. This is where Chi end. A side event allowing you to play the Keyblade war is included in the mobile games and (I think) may be accessible as part of theatre mode. 

 

KH Unchained and KH Union Cross (KHUX):

 

These two are the mobile games and for all intents and purposes are the same game. KH Unchained was released as KHUX and there is no plot different that I am aware of. There is an ingame mention of it and I think it added a new game mode.

 

For a significant chunk of KHUX the plot appears to be the same as Chi. There may be hints that its not the same before, but the first time I recall the game hinting that its not  the same story is when you fight Aced for the first time in Daybreak town. At that point, your Chirinthy and another Chirinthy are speaking, indicating that the player character is starting to remember. As noted, this is the first time I remember there being a suggestions that KHUX takes place after the war. 

 

Much later they story is explicit that it takes place after the war. Eventually in the Keyblade graveyard (post keyblade war) five Dandelions meet (as instructed) and note that they were chose to become the new Union leaders by Ava. These five are: Ephemer, Skuld, Ventus, Brain, and Lauriam. Lauriam is the original version of Marluxia. Much of the plot is them trying to figure out what they are to do as Union leaders. A significant subplot that runs through this involves Lauriam.

 

I can't recall when its introduced versus when you learn about the Union leaders (i.e. the order the game presents it in), but the short version is that just before the Keyblade war a girl named Strelitzia is introduced. She is from a different union than the player, but sees them around a lot and wants to make friends. This desire is made more urgent when she is recruited by Ava to be a union leaders of the dandelions. She wants player to join the dandelions in order to save them. Strelitizia eventually sees the player walk into a abandoned house and follows them in. She is attacked and killed by an unknown entity. Strelitizia is later revealed to be Lauriams' sister. 

 

When the Union leaders meet, Lauriam has no idea what has happened to his sister and a good chuck of what he does is looks for her. As part of this he turns to a member of his sister's old party named Elrena (the original version of Larxene). She doesn't play a huge role in this game, but shows up a couple of times in regards to Lauriam's sister. Something Elerna says also hints at them being the data world (i.e. she has not memory of the keyblade war actually happening).

 

Eventually the Union leaders learn of a data version of daybreak town. They initially think they are in the real one, but turns out in the Data version. I don't recall if the game outright says it, but if it does not, it is heavily implied that this is where the Dandelions went when the war occurred. Much of what comes next involves their trying to find to their escape from data world as long with the resolution of the Strelitizia murder plot, which are intertwined. Within the data world, the Union leaders find pods that would allow them to escape.

 

Toward the end, you learn who Strelitizia's murderer is: Ventus. This explanation of why is KH level convoluted. The short version is that Ventus was possessed by Darkness. That is its only name. It cast aside its physical form and began to infect peoples hearts. It possessed Ventus and killed Strelitzia in part because he wanted to be stronger and because, in esssence, that is how it had to be. Turns out its pure Darkness and Ventus is pure light.

 

As a side note, the Union leaders at least had some idea something wasn't right because all there meetings with Ava were the same, except for Ventus's. It turns out the Ava Ventus met was Darkness impersonating her (And likely the player when Strelitizia followed them). Ventus confronts Darkness, absorbs it (this Darkness would later be extracted and be given form as Vanitas). While much of this going on, the player is in the Wreck it Ralph world deadline with issues there. The discovery of that word coincides with the discovery that there is a data daybreak town. At the same time, the real Daybreak town is beginning to collapse and, as a result, so is the data world. 

 

Anyway, Ventus's battle with Darkness puts him to sleep and he is placed into an escape pod. Elrena shows back and and so does the player.  

 

Lauriam, Elrena, and Sleeping Ventus eventually leave. The player, and Skuld, and Ephemer are the data world and Brain is in the real world trying to help them get out.  Unfortunately 4 more darkness show up and demand they open a gate. Ephemer tells them no. At the point the player attacks and defeats Ephemer and Skuld. They say they have been possessed by Darkness and player cannot hear Ephemer and Skuld. Just as player is about to attack them again, Ephemer fires a light from his keyblade through players heart and opens a gate. Player and the four darknesses are sucked in. Ephemer seals the gate shut while apologizing to the player. 

 

On the other side, player relevels they were just acting. The plan was to convince Ephemer and Skuld (and the Darknesses) that the player had been corrupted to convince Ephemer open the gate and seal them in. After laughing at the Darkness' gullibility, the player seals the other end of the gate, which traps all 5. Meanwhile, Ephemer and Skuld are look at Daybreak town as its collapsing and then get in their pods and leave. Unfortunately, Brain has no control over when and where they will end up (which he told Lauriam and Elrena before they left).

 

Meanwhile Luxu confronts Brain (who is in the real world). Brain had planned to stay behind in an attempt to help the other Dandelions trapped there.  Luxu tell him that when the world ends so does the data world (through a wrench into Brain's plan the his plans). The have a conversation, but what happens next is unknown. 

 

The world then ends. Player does not escape.

 

As to what happens to everyone:

 

(1) Ephemer ends up in a ruined Daybreak town at some point after its destruction. He founds a new city called Scala Ad Caelum. 

(2) Lauriam ends up in the Woodlands (Snow White's world) laying in a bed of flowers. What happens next (beyond him losing his heart and become Marluxia at some point is not known).

(3) Elrena ends up in Enchanted Dominion.(What happens to her outside of become Larxene is not known). 

(4) Ventus (who is still asleep) is found in the world where the keyblade graveyard is and a mysterious figure is seen approaching him (probably Xehanort).

(5) Skuld's fate is unknown, but I will detail the current theories.

(6) Brain's fate is a bit of a mess. Basically you see two things on him: One is you see Luxu dropping his hood to reveal Brain's face. However, you also see Brain show up in Scala sometime in the future. Brain sees a statute of Ephemer, implying that he arrives much later and that Ephemer has already died. 

(7) The Dandelions all die (well go to sleep as the game puts it) and, in some way (I will explain later), become dream eaters.

(8) The player dies, but does not go sleep. Their heart migrants and the player is reincarnated as Xehanort. I am not making this up, that really happens.

 

As to why, I suspect it's a way to make the player a part of the main story line without screwing it up. It also serves to help the Xehanort rehab tour. Normally, you might reincarnate them as Sora, Riku or Kairi, but the BBS trio complicates that. They already exist as the explanation as to why Sora, Riku, and Kairi are wielders. The alternatives are killing the player or having them share the fate of the dandelions. The story makes them seem to special too share that kind of generic fate. 

 

 

Info that doesn't neatly fit into a plot Summary:

 

The Master of Master's plan is revealed. He's not evil, but, damn, this game does him no favors. 

 

So, it turns out this keyblade war is not the first. It has happened many times before and the master has had to watch his friends die in the past. He has fought darkness many times. Just as he says in Back Cover his, overall goal is set the stage for the world after the keyblade war, i.e. he wants to set the board in terms favorable to light. 

 

He seems unconcerned about the fate of the current word even going so far as telling Luxu that he can't be sentimental. His plan involves creating vessels for the strongest Darkness (of which there are in total 13). He and the foretellers were to be some of those vessels. I think the new Union leaders were intended to be as well. The players stunt at the end prevents that from happening. 

 

As far the traitor: In the most literal sense, he calls Luxu this. But Luxu is not one in the sense that there is any indication he intentionally betrays what hes been asked to do. The big "but" to this is we have no idea what happened with him and Brain and what the deal with him having Brains face is. 

 

The lost page given to Gula was done explicitly to sow the seeds of doubt within the Foretellers and lead to the war. I'm not sure he even needed that as they way there roles were setup invites the conflict that erupted. Regardless, they were setup to fail from the beginning and in this respect the "traitor" is the Master. He used their unwavering faith in them to use them as tools and scarified them without their knowledge. He led countless to their deaths in the keyblade war and left the remainder to die. 

 

It's all for the greater good, but man, is it easy to say that when its not your life being sacrificed. Nevertheless, based on this and on the ending to KH3 (the chessboard and meeting with luxu) strongly hits that they will be the new antagonists except possibly Ava. We have no idea why she isnt there at the end of KH3.

 

As for Ava, as I said, she ignites the war when she attacks Luxu. We have no idea what he said except that it dealt with the traitor. She appears to have misgivings even before that as she defies the master in one respect. The master designated the 5 new union leaders and one was to recieve the book of prophecies. The one who was supposed to get it was Ephemer. She gives it to Brain instead with the express purpose of trying to fight fate.

 

What we don't know is how much this deviated from what the Master knew (if it did at all). Did he know about Ava giving the book to someone else? Did he know about Player's involvement and that they would sealing four of the darkness's up? Brain talks about becoming a virus in the plan at one point, suggesting he planned to defy fate, did the Master know?

 

Did the master know Xehanort as the player reincarnated when he met Young Xehanort?

 

Remaining Plot Threads:

 

Brain:

 
As noted, he ends up in Scala and Luxu has his face. Some ideas floating around are:

 

(1) Brain and Luxu are one in the same. Brain makes it to Scala and then later travels back in time as Luxu.

 

(2) Luxu possess Brain's body either willingly or unwillingly, while Brain's heart makes it to Scala and his body is reconstituted. This would have allowed Brain to escape the data world. 

 

(3) Brain, at least temporarily, takes on Luxu's role and is actually the one to hide the box, which explains why Xigbar didn't know where it was. This method (as well as 1) would fit with one of Luxu's secret notes where he says he gave one of the 5 union leaders the No Name Keyblade. Brain is not ever shown having it, but process of elimination suggests its him (i.e. you can eliminate Ephemer, Ventus, and Lauriam pretty easily).

 

Brain and Ephemer: 

 

Brain's original keyblade is the Master Defender (i.e. Eraqus's blade). Because of this, he is thought to be an ancestor of Eraqus. That is still the current theory, but there is a big "but" now.

 

Brain gives the Master Defender to to Ephemer near the end of KHUX. When Brain arrives in Scala and sees the statute of Ephemer, Empher is holding that keyblade, which shows he still had it. Though Brain is in a position to get it back by being in Scala. Brains presence also potentially explains how No Name ends up there as well. That said we don't know at this point.

 

Skuld: 

 

Her fate is unknown. However, you do see what Xehanort's mother looks like and she looks similar to Skuld. The hair style and color in particular are the same, but the eyes are not. It also begs the question of why show her face and not her fate if they are the same person. Unfortunately, mom is not with him for long and he is given to a robed figure in Scala. 

 

We know from Dark Road that he is schooled and trained in Scala, but what happens to Xehanort there has not been reveled yet. That's also where he meets Eraqus. 

 

Skuld is also thought to be Subject X: the girl Isa and Lea were looking for. 

 

Lauriam and Elrena:

 

We know they become Larxene and Marluxia, but the stuff Lauriam and Ephemer say at the end of KHUX gives the impression that the games not done with them.  The words involves promises of future action, which would amount to nothing if it was done. We don't know how or when they become Marluxia and Larxene or things like how did Xemnas know they were connected to the ancient Keyblade War or why he even cared. 

 

Although, the player is Xehanort there is no evidence he recalls that or that he has any memories of his past life (otherwise I can't imagine him doing what he does to Ventus). 

 

If feels very much like its been left for later, so don't be surprised to see more of them. 

 

That said, despite the words from Xemnas: Luxord and Demyx do not show up at all. So we don't know their connection to the keyblade war, though a popular theory is that Demyx is the Master (based on their odd mannerisms). 

 

Ventus:

 

Ventus likely ends up in a time just before the beginning of BBS. There really isn't any mystery to his fate.

 

The Dandelions:

 

They are shown in a white void hugging their Chirinthy's before their body fades out. The Chirinthy slowly does as well and a dream eater shows up. Its a little murky as to whether they Chrinithy becomes the dream eater to watch over the sleeping wielder or whether they merge together to become the dream eater. It was also thought that the wielder became one, but I don't think that's the case. 

 

In summary:

 

1) The foretellers are being setup as antagonists. Probably the master as well. As a side note, I wouldn't blame the foretellers for being SUPER bitter about all this. They got completely screwed over.

 

2) I suspect this isn't the last we've seen of the union leaders. Brain's fate is messy and Skuld's is unknown. The other issue is that the KHUX suggests they the group of 7 friends (leaders + elrena + player) are scattered so far apart that in most cases they never see each other again and in the few exceptions, they don't know it. I don't think any of them know the fate or any of the others. The only exception is Brain learning about Ephemer and possible Elrena and Lauriam. 

 

3) Where they "meet" is basically Xehanort and Ventus and Xehanort with Marluxia and Larxene, though none have any knowledge of each other from their former life and their interactions with each other are largely very negative. Well technically Ventus sees Marluxia and Larxene during he war, but they don't interact. 

 

4) This is KH and a truism is that this eventually work out. It may take many games and many years (both in game and out), but it happens eventually. This ending is a sad one and I can't imagine it being left that way.

 

That's why I think we'll see the union leaders are part of future arcs (unless Dark Road deals with it) and why we probably haven't seen the last of Xehanort. We probably have as a villan, but I wouldn't be surprised if he learns who he really was and is allowed to "reunite" with his union leader friends in some form (where they also learned about him). They will probably also learn of each other's fate (as they largely don't know what happened to the others (except for Brain).

 

5) I don't hate these attempts to help rehab Xehanort, but boy did they wait way to long to start doing this. The player's noble and self-sacrificng personality does not mesh well with many of the things he does (though Dark Road will tell us why he does them). Really, hints that he might not be totally evil should have started appearing probably as far back as BBS if they wanted to do this. 

 

I forgot how to place videos so here it is: It's in 3 parts 

 

Quest 977: Story Finale Part 1/3: Quest 977 - Darkness Looms ~ KH Union χ [Cross] - YouTube

 

Question 978: Story Finale Part 2/3: Quest 978 - What Comes After ~ KH Union χ [Cross] - YouTube

 

Question 979 (the ending): Story Finale Part 3/3: Quest 979 - The Final Battle ~ KH Union χ [Cross] - YouTube

 

EDIT: Made some edits because I got who was in the data world vs. who was in the real world at the time the four darkness's attack backwards.

I believe the Trails in the Sky trilogy is on steam so I definitely will The cross bell Duology is coming out for steam this summer but only in Japanese, but I'll see if I can hunt for them if there's no localization. By the way are you gonna going to play Hajimari no Kiseki and Kuro no Kiseki if they get localized?  I definitely will

Absolutely. You can get Crossbell in English, the original one for Zero is hilariously bad, but a group called geofront did a new one that is light years better. You basically buy a downloadable version of the original Japanese version and place the translation into of it. There is an English for Azure which is pretty good. Geofront is makong there own for Azrue as well.

 

falcom rereleased Crossbell last year and I except NISA will translate that at some point. If you don’t want to wait, I can show you how to get them in English.

It’s done.

 

I imagine with Karin that the one reason she was so quick to accept Sasuke's apology, Nate, even if it wasn't said, is she could sense he was legitimately sorry for what he did to her, considering that she's said as a sensor type, she'd be able to tell if someone is lying due to shifts and fluctuations in their chakra, as she said to Zetsu.

 

Not a good excuse for sure... But just something that'd make sense.

 

The second she became a liability she was discarded (which btw, tends to undercut the argument the he really cared about her as a person as opposed to seeing her a valuable tool). It's worse than just the crappy apology. She ran back to him after that and it wasn't for revenge. She threatened him a bit, but she went back to be with him. So this impulse existed before he even apologized So did the other two after they were left to rot in jail, so it's not like they are any better.

 

The point of Sasuke stabbing her was to demonstrate his decent into darkness, but an "I'm sorry" a bit later and it's all water under the bridge. The point of the scene of the original scene is ruined and she looks stupid to boot.A couple of panels devoted to essentially undoing one of his more despicable acts. 

 

I've always found the SasuKarin defenses from NS fans to be baffling because everything bad thing that can be said about SS exists for SK, and IMO, its worse for SK. 

 

Nope, that will be confusing as hell. To have a mangaka draw two different endings based on pairings is not only will be confusing to all audiences (if, for example, the Japanese fans saw the international version with this situation and vice versa for an American seeing the Japanese version, debates galore!) but it would be a stupid marketing move. It has to be one or the other, otherwise the franchise would have a bigger backlash, because someone can't decide who Naruto ends up with, and it's not a romance/harem genre.

 It also wouldn't solve any problems. It'd just shift the battlefield to what was cannon, which is a question that a sequel would be required to answer. 

Oh, so I and many others were right that was probably suppose to happen, and again the editor went, "Wait! She is suppose to get together with Sasuke to appease the large (at least in comparison to their nH one) Japanese SS fanbase. Also by fighting alongside Naruto during the final battle it would also make her seem like the Heroine; which she still was at the time. When I/we want Hinata to be the Heroine to appeal to the Western/American fans. This can't happen."

 

Kishimoto for the first nine to ten years of Naruto had Yahagi -an experience editor- as his editor for those nine to ten years when the average was two to three years. He was behind a lot of the ideas of early Naruto that led to it popularity for good and ill. He left right before the Pein arc. Then the editor of the Pein arc order Kishi to leave out Tsunade fight with Pein, had Hinata fight Pein, and then proclaimed that Hinata was now the heroine. Kishimoto got into a fight with his editor and got the support of the other mangaka. After that he was in constant conflict with his editors -over keeping Sakura as the heroine while they would constantly gaslight that Hinata was who the fans wanted- to the point over the next five to six years he had about eight to nine editors over that time when again the average was two to three years per editor.

 

Writers often are writing to their editors over writing for themselves or their customers; since the editor is the one that ultimately decides if what they are writing even goes to print. His first editor in a interview after the ending said he doesn't stand up for himself enough and does what his editors says too often. So he could have fought more and may have did. Again he had several editors over a very short period of time. But he was eventually worn down when they convinced him it what the fans wanted. 

 

Also I would bring up that whole destine princess he went on about for ten chapter was likely to make sure his editor literally couldn't pull what they did in Naruto.

 

There were rumors for years he wanted to be done with Naruto and write something else. Maybe he just didn't care anymore.

I know.  I won’t be sad if it stays that way. Put his character out of its misery (and by misery I mean the garbage writing).

 

That said, given this series’s overall track record, I’ll believe he’s dead when I see the body and believe he’ll stay that way once the series ends and he’s still dead (if he dies). 

 

We do not know the truth behind everything and I don’t think it matters. Junk is junk regardless of whether we know why it became junk, and its junk at this point.

 

I know. The KISS crossover movie was all over it. It even include a damn song about it!

 

The Ascot 5! History's greatest musical group.

 

What I think James was talking about in terms of rules and such in Super was how we has Future Trunks pop up again, and how it also led to more divergent timelines thanks to Zamasu becoming Goku Black and such... unless I'm wrong.

Ah. If so, then we may taking last each other on that, Internal consistency is important, but the series said Screw it long ago. I’d actually agree in not worrying about rules, why care now after all theyve done. My concern is not that. I just don’t see who you can change pairings without derailing the plot because this story is about the adventures of a burrito and his buddy who accidental  stuck his head into a blender and not Naruto’s romantic life. Switching pairing turns it from the former into the latter.

 

All the timeline stuff with future trucks didn’t stop it from being Goku and Vegeta fighting people to save the world, so the basic core remained the same.

The story has made so much drama that you can't tell what is supposed to be subtle vs what is blunt. The story did not play with subtlety towards the end, but the story does play with symbolism a lot.

I don't disagree with his use of symbolism, but nothing post pain came across as subtle. I don't know if you ever saw Looney Tunes's spoof on the Scarlet Pimpernell, The Scarlet PUmpernickle. At the end Daffy runs out of script and just makes up a bunch of stuff as the other guy just keeps saying "and then what happened..."

Everything post-Pain has that feel to it. The Last, the Gaiden's, it all feels this way. So I'm relunctant to say those things are meant subtle digs to NH/SS and, in the case of the cord, more likely to attribute it to lazy and crappy writing. We are now 6 six years away from the end and nothing has born fruit.  
 

That's the biggest question isn't it? What exactly did he want to do and what way did his story accomplish it? If we go by what the story, then what I'd argue is Kishimoto wanted to make NaruSaku canon, the studio wanted NaruHina canon...and since Kishimoto hate writing romance....it would only make sense he let someone else write it.

For me, it is not. My point with that is that I just don't care about the "why" of NH/SS. That he chose it and its poorly written schlock is it . If he came out tomorrow and said my editors or anime study made me do it...okay? You still did it and its still poorly written schlock. I suppose I might be more sympathetic to him as I do not know the power balance between publisher and author, except to know that it doesn't all belong to him. If he farmed it out to the studio, its the same.

The other thing is what is on the page is more concrete. Many of the arguments about the "why" involve divining intent from very limited interviews. In short, the ending sucks. It's on the page. Nothing he says will change it, so I don't care if it was his idea or not or what is trying to accomplish.

I mean I guess it might make the NH/SS fandom mad? I don't care enough about them to worry about it.
 

That's why the interviews are also strange. Hinata and NH was never HIS intention. His focus was the bond between Naruto and Sasuke. The bond of brothers. Go by the interviews and Kishimoto had no intentions to push Hinata to the forefront....ever. She was never meant to be special, but she was made special because the studio told him "this character is popular. Let's milk her for money."

At least in Naruto, she never was pushed to the forefront. She's s special only if you define "getting with Naruto" as being special. That's part of the problem. While I'm not sad that he didn't repeatedly bring a character that bored me to the forefront, the whole problem is that he does nothing with her. The Last is a testament to just how weak the development was.
 

On purpose? No. I think Kishimoto is basically saying "You want SS and NH to be together? Alright, but they are not exactly great together." Remember, all the positive NH and SS stuff doesn't come from Kishimoto, it came from someone else. Supported by the fact he even says that SS at least is more akin to a drug addiction and any reason for their relationship happening is contrived.

He only put NH and SS together because he was told that is what the fanbase wanted...and then when he did it he was surprised by the rift the fanbase created. I have to wonder if he is like "Why did they want NH and SS together if the hate these couples so much?" You begin to realize it is not the couple they loved, it was the character Hinata. Hinata wanted Naruto...that is why they want NH. They didn't love Naruto, or Sasuke or Sakura. They ll loved Hinata and that is all they cared about.

This is contrary to Kishimoto who cared about Sasuke and Naruto more.
 
End game for who? Kishimoto or the studio? Cause it is a huge difference in this which is why I believe the bento boxes mean something more. Naruto cares about Sakura and her child over his own. This is the double edge sword. Why then have Naruto ignore the bento from Boruto, but act like it is a gift from god when Salad hands him it? Why have Naruto so surprised and give this speech about bonds if Salad is Sakura's child any way? Can't have it both ways otherwise you diminish the meaning like you said.

Why did Kishimoto make Naruto Gaiden at all? Who really wanted it to be done?

My main point is that the theories being floated don't make any sense in terms of underlying motivations from either the publisher's or author's point of view. At least the idea that this is all a shameless cash grab makes sense in that its a rational motive.

But putting them together and making them unhappy is a middle-finger. Doing such things in a by-the-book hero's journey story is doing exactly that. Naruto isn't a story where tropes regarding that journey (including rommance) are being intentionally subverted or critiqued.

It's one where he saves the world and overcomes his obstacles. An ending where the main characters are trapped in unhappy romances? That would so utterly tone deaf. And I don't mean in terms of reading the audience. The ending is a happy one, doing that is so totally at odds with that tone.

Sakura Gaiden is the same. It ends with the three of them being happy together, but then his sending subtle message in the same story (cord) and in another gaiden that everyone is unhappy despite the tone of all those endings?

If he's behaving how you say, then its impossible to believe he's not intentionally flipping someone off on his way out.

As for Boruto, I could see it as cheap character drama, but then you should expect a happily ever after resolution to it all.
 

Some people just like to watch franchises burn, I guess.

I agree. But Shonen Jump isn't Lucas Film. I haven't seen anything that suggest they or Kishomoto are some of those people.
 

Why not? Toriyama has been doing it a lot lately especially with all the rules changes in Super. "Oh you like Future Trunks? You want an evil Goku? Let's make the Goku Black saga and bring in future Trunks for marketing."
 
Honestly, I have to wonder if Road to Ninja was supposed to be the "soft reboot" we all should have got since it is "the movie he wanted to do."

The Future Trunks Saga didn't turn a shonen series into Days of Our Lives. That is what trying to switch pairings at this point would do.

Re-editing some old stuff, going through some notes/story ideas about clones....

 

What if Naruto's clones were an unlimited technique, but with diminishing control and increasing independence?

 

What if Menma wasn't an alternate universe character, but an in-universe result of Naruto coming to the end of his control over his clones?

 

So the thinking was that the more he creates the wilder they get. They are just a little rebellious when he's younger and makes them in huge amounts. But as he gets older and gains power, so do the clones. And they go more rogue each time. 

 

And he realizes that if he wants to continue making these over the course of his life, he'll have to be judicious. So if he's in a bad situation and he has to make one, he knows he's got a small amount of time where he can rely on the clone, before it turns his powers against him. Basically, the power is deteriorating over time, so that the clone is getting more powerful as he ages, but it has taken on the worst characteristics of himself.

 

Eh, just a thought. Would have made some good fics!

I think this would happen...

 

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And Considering Superman recently punched out someone called The “World Destroyer”, he’s definitely gonna crush those two over-hyped weeb “bags of salt”, no contest. Just saying.

 I've always hated cross-series arguments between universes that don't adhere to the same sets of rules. 

 

Still, this made me think of Drunk Rick taking out Worldender. 

 

Oh there's no need to even do  any of that. the solution was very simple from the start, if you ask me and it's not hard to do. Make Sakura Naruto's childhood friend that is still a tsundere to him when he does something stupid but have her smiling and blushing when he talks about how he wants to be Hokage, Make Hinata the same but not as Naruto's fan girl and have her shrink away even around him. THEN those fans would not find her so cute anymore. How do I know? Remember, Sakura is not even that bad of a tsundere compared to some other cases but those other cases are far more tolerated than her.

 

Case in point. I know not all of us here watch Black Clover here but it is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of this dynamic DONE RIGHT (and is one of my very favourite series right now, but besides the point).  You have the main character Asta who is exactly like Naruto. (and I am not saying this lightly) He is a idiotic simpleton that wants to the biggest political figure in his home kingdom, the Wizard King, which is the strongest combat magic user in said kingdom and commands all other mages of said category called "magic knights" which all use magic as a military force and law enforcement at the same time. He was bullied and teased since childhood because he HAS NO MAGIC which is completely unheard of but still is determined to be the Wizard King, and has MANY MANY naysayers even now in the series. Spot the similarities RIGHT THERE? I won't delve into HOW He is trying to become wizard king despite having no magic or the setting and premise, but you get the idea.

 

Now you have the main female lead of the manga/anime, Noelle Silva, who is a princess of that kingdom, and a tsundere completely not unlike Sakura. She was snooty at the start of the manga/anime (still is somewhat now even after character development) and would rub her status in the faces of others, even her friends (she and Asta are assigned to the same magic knight squad), and uses it as a justification of her haughty attitude, BUT "SHOCKER!!", she is in love with Asta. She berates him like a typical tsundere love interest and smacks him with her magic when embarrassed or he does something stupid, but shows to completely fan girl him in silence and inside her head, shows visible concern when there was the time when he lost control of his powers and he looked like a monster similar to Sakura and Naruto, etc etc. and develops into a stronger more confident young woman. How popular is she you ask? She placed third in the Black Clover Popularity polls TWICE.

 

And do note, Asta has has a "Hinata" too in this scenario which is Noelle's cousin. Said cousin is a sweet-natured healer, and also falls for Asta soon after she is introduced, and while she does have fans that prefer her over Noelle to get with Asta, Noelle is still far more popular overall. The cousin's name is Mimosa if you're curious, and has the EXACT SAME dynamic as Hinata, in that she is not on the same team as Asta, barely interacts with him, and has a bust size that is noted by other characters and also used as the butt of jokes on occasion. Despite her obvious crush on Asta she is rarely seen with him, does not spend time with him off duty, and is hardly seen at all in the series, plus Asta spends more time with Noelle than even his "best friend/ rival". That's right Asta ALSO has a "Sasuke" that he is life partners with and strives toward the same goal to become wizard king (if you want I'll talk about him later), but Asta spends most of his time with Noelle.

 

My point on all of this is that you see the difference between Noelle and Sakura in the eyes of the fans here here? Noelle is just like Sakura in her dynamic with Asta, withthe tsundere attitude but she was established incredibly early in the manga to have started liking him in secret but is too embarrassed to show it to him properly, plus she has competition for his affections and it is not just Mimosa, there are a couple of other characters I did not mention that could be called "love interests" for Asta, but these two, Noelle and Mimosa, are the most prominent in the story and again Mimosa is not shown to be with Asta frequently and is off screen a lot of the time just like Hinata. So what is the difference between Noelle and Sakura?

 

Pretty sure that it is because Noelle has shown to have a very soft spot for the MC despite her reluctance to show it or hell, even admit it to others and herself most of all. And get this, SEVERAL character can see she loves Asta, even character that don't see her often or know her that well. there are several characters in universe that outright WANT to see them as a couple or acknowledge Noelle's feelings. Plus, Noelle progresses a lot as a character in that she has an INSANE amount of magic power, but can't control properly so she started off as a liability early in the manga (just like Sakura again) so her development is learning to actually use her powers and become a stronger person , and she has goals that don't involve Asta at all might I add. It also helps that she is quite the beauty herself, with author admitting she is one of the most physically attractive women in the kingdom. If that is not double standards, I don't know what is.

 

BUT do you get it now? the problem is not Hinata at all, but to fix all first impressions of Sakura. I've argued this for years. Hinata is NOTHING, there is nothing special about her besides her family name, she is a side character at best and her so called feelings for the MC are her sole defining feature and she' is NOT EVEN PROMINENT AT THAT. All of Sakura's hatred and Hinata worship has nothing to do with Hinata and everything to do with how others viewed Sakura at the start. If Sakura was shown to love Naruto at the start she likely would be more popular than she is now just like Noelle, and not have her tsundere behaviour held in contempt because she did not even secretly like him. And notice, you see A LOT of other Shonen manga/anime heroines that are not physically involved with the plot either. They don't have plot important fights or even fights at all in their series, but do you see them being called weak useless, annoying etc etc. like Sakura has? Often no. Why? because their love for the MC is plot relevant and fans seem to latch on to that and adore it. 

 

But what I'm saying is Hinata is not the problem. And even if she was, the problem is not solved is solved by simply making her a horrible character. That has been done before and those females are still loved for it by these fans, so that is not working. Perfect example. Yuno Gasai from "Future Diary". THAT GIRL is an outright psychotic killer and actually embodies everything you WANT TO paint Hinata as. She casually murders people and with a child like glee in her facial expression, and is physically, emotionally and even socially abusive towards her love interest, the MC of the story. she considers anyone he interacts with in their age group a threat to their relationship, so she kills them or attempts to kill them on regular basis. She even drugged and kidnapped him one time for at least a week. Fans STILL love her and want her with the MC and SHE DOES get with him at the end. So you see, it is not enough to just make Hinata as heinous as possible to get these fans to stop worshiping her, and Yuno Gasai is one of MANY examples that prove this point. Just my two cents.

 

I'll start by saying, I like Black Clover (though I've only seen the anime), but I don't give a rip about the pairings. Since it's a paint by numbers Shonen I fully expect it to end with a paint by numbers pairing. That's fine. It doesn't concern me whether Asta is paired with Noella, Mimosa, or anyone else as long as the writing for it holds up. 

 

That said... 

 

I like Sakura a great deal more than Noelle. When I think of the typical tsundere and what I dislike about the trope Noelle is exactly the type of character I think of: where physical violence and insults are often hurled unfairly at the love interest and other characters. I mean she isn't on the same level as a Takahashi tsundere and someone like Naru from Love Hina, but its bad. She hits and yells people (especially Asta) to hide her feelings and cover up there her own embarrassment. I understand the trope often involves comedic elements and exaggeration and I don't have much of an issue when its in response to a character saying or doing something stupid (and I'll grant Asta is frequently a moron with limited emotional intelligence). Howeber, its hard to watch characters get smacked around and treated badly when they did not do anything wrong or made an honest mistake because the tsundere can't adequately deal with there own feelings. And unfortunately, Noelle does this frequently. It's not the only piece to her character, so I don't hate her. However, she grates on me at time.

 

I also dislike the comparison between Mimosa and Hinata. Mimosa has a similar personality type, but isn't nearly as withdrawn, is on screen more frequently, and is a better developed character. From the parts I've seen, she does more than like Asta. 

 

As for Sakura, I think she's generally well written. In the manga, she's an incredibly mild Tsudnere and most of the examples where she is one occur because not because she's unable to handle her feelings because Naruto is being an idiot. I don't mind that she hates him the beginning or that she is both superficial and puts on a front because that's how she thinks she is "supposed" to act. It gives her character room to grow and change. That growth is why I like it. She realizes her own immaturity and weakness and actively take steps to move past it. Those can be seen throughout Part 1. The one blind spot remains Sasuke at that point and this is where Kishimoto fails with her. I'm honestly fine with it remaining after Part 1, provided it was addressed in Part 2. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Sasuke's initial lack of screen time and Naruto's own feelings about Sasuke hid this for awhile, but it eventually falls apart because its not properly addressed. To be fair  to Sakura, this is a problem exists across the board. I have less of an issue with Sasuke actions (with two exceptions (taka and his reasons for wanting to Hokage)) and far more of an issue with the casts reaction to them. His actions match his motivations. It's the tolerance of those actions that is so bad. Sakura's feelings, to me, are less of a Sakura problem and more of a series wide problem. To many characters either ignore those actions or too easily accept that Naruto is right in wanting to save him not matter what he does.

 

This to me is what makes 693 so awful. It's not simply the pairing component, its that it takes all that development and throws it in the trash. Turns out, she's still the same person she was in 181. What was the point of that development? The fact that she's a stronger ninja is beside the point because the story is as much as about character growth as it is about throwing punches. I get his desire for a parallel, but I can't recall seeing so poorly used. The purpose of such a comparison is to show the change and not highlight the lack of it. One of her major flaws as a person relates to her view of Sasuke. Turns out, nothing changed. Even if he were dead set with SasuSaku, Kishimoto didn't need to do this. 

 

Making her his childhood friend probably would have make her more liked, but then she's not the same character and all that growth we see is gone. I can't say it would be bad, but it'd rob what I liked about her part 1 character. Making her like Noella....no, thanks. It also conflicts with Naruto's back story. I honestly was looking forward to the Kyuubi revelation with her. I have no idea what he was smoking when he decided not to show that. Additionally, I'm not really in love with the idea of molding her to make her more popular. I understand this is a business and the audience reaction does matter, but I've never seen anything that would suggest she was so disliked that pandering was necessary. The accusation is Kishimoto did this with Hinata and, to me, this kind of desire to change Sakura suggest that he needed to pander with her instead of Hinata so the audience liked her more and, thus, we'd could get what we want instead of them. I don't see a meaningful difference beyond character preference and most of the stuff put forth would change what was good about Sakura. It feels like people want to mold her to compensate for the author and editors lack of intestinal fortitude. If you think that was why we got the pairings we did, what faith should you have that efforts to change Sakura so that the pandering goes your way instead wouldn't also result in a colossal dumpster fire? In the end, you're still putting faith in the guys you believe screwed it all up to begin with.

 

The one area I feel (possibly) for Kishimoto is that I think he genuinely wanted to end it much sooner. With the way the pain arc ended and the numerous rumors that he wanted to do other things, I genuinely believe this series was supposed to end long before it did. I had issue with Pain and some of the things before it, but the whole thing truly begins to fall apart post-Pain.

 

I agree that making her a horrible character as suggested earlier is not the way to go, especially the way it was described in the post you're referring to. I I cannot see how that could be executed in a way that wouldn't elevate the romance subplot to a major plot point nor do I see how you avoid screwing up tone of the series because such a plot probably does not end well for Hinata or Naruto. The romance is a subplot. This doesn't excuse the bad writing, but its not a romance story . Making Hinata a horrible character elevates that plot and elevates her as character. The problem with Hinata is the series does nothing to develop her and does nothing to develop her relationship with Naruto. SasuSaku suffers from a similar problem. It needed to something to develop these, but it does nothing.

 

EDIT: As an aside, one of the great ironies of Hinata is that she is seen as a stronger person for essentially meeting expectations. By that I mean, she proves herself by doing the thing that her father wanted of her in the first place, when a much stronger showing would be to tell her family where to shove it and do her own thing. Being a ninja is a pathway to relevance, so it'd be hard to do this without sidelining her.

 

Serious question: Did Hinata actually want to be a ninja? Does the series ever say?

 

One of my crack pairings was Naruto and Hanabi, and I've always enjoyed stories where Hanabi casually tells her family to kitten off, especially since the Hyuuga issues played straight means she has very limited control over her own destiny (far less than Hinata does).