41 replies to this topic

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Really torn on it, I mean he was mysterious as Tobi but Kishi mislead everyone to think he was Madara. I didn't pay attention to the who is tobi theories back in the day.

 

Obito himself, well as a villain I'm kinda torn between good villain as a powerhouse and counterpart of Naruto for his morals and actions. On the other side just outright kinda pathetic in the long run, I mean his pain originated over losing Rin. I mean he does say he is doing his actions for more than just Rin but we still see Rin in his thoughts a lot, I mean a lot. Yeah he lost hope but seriously, one deal in life is, its just not fair, you gotta deal with life. Obito just went insane all ways to being a villain. He has absolute power now, is practically invulnerable (not even Naruto and maybe not even Hashirama can crank out enough Sage jutsu to harm him without risk of dying). He has all the power but none of the backbone to make an appealing villain. In Avatar the last airbender, Azula was practically a good villain, manipulative, sadistic, calm, intelligent, brings others down on their flaws, she was practically a b**** but she was a B**** we loved. Best part is she was technically never beaten in a head on fight, she just broken down mentally and Zuko was evened out with her, she only tricked Zuko and ended up being trapped by Katara. Azula was a good villain. Otherwise for Naruto, Madara is good because least he is just a villain who is evil for the sake of power and others abandoning him. He didn't even ever care for Obito trying to force him to use Rinne Tensei and even had a back up plan like a good villain in case of associate betrayal. Thats good planning.

 

 

Actually, the misleading everyone to thinking Tobi is Obito, isn't really accidental.  People would take Madara more seriously than Obito.  So, it was part of their plan for Tobi to act under the shade of Madara.  Besides, it was under Madara's guidance that led Obito to becoming Tobi.  Up to Obito making himself the container for the Ten-Tails, "Everything that has transpired, has done so according" to Madara's design.  It's only until now that Madara's plan went off-rails.

 

And yet, if things went down like that, we would've never gotten Kakashi's development. Seriously, do the fans really want Kakashi's development or not? pick one. I'll admit though, that the above would've been interesting. But I'd rather pick Obito over a no-name if in the end we get some badly-needed Kakashi development. 

 

 

Eh..., I've already thought that Kakashi's development has concluded when he met the apparition of his father during Pain's Invasion of Konoha.  Hell, if he died in that arc, it would've been fine.  At this point, Kakashi's just affirming the fact that he's finally moved on from the death of his comrades, as his duel with Obito and Zabuza showed.  

Edited by shadow_Uzumaki, 30 August 2013 - 03:58 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Eh, he's cool. I enjoy his status as a villain and him being the origin of Naruto and Kakashi's ideals that are not n conflict with them. Seems pretty bad ass in some ways. On the other hand before becoming Jubito He leeched off others powers besides his Kamui, and did not show any prowess other than in taijutsu. His goals and motivations seem petty and immature to me, But I appreciate the realism in it. It's more believable to create a villain by having them lose all that is important to them than than say they were just evil to begin with. all in all, I like his character, but some things I feel could have been better executed.

Edited by Phantom_999, 30 August 2013 - 04:58 AM.

[Codus N]

Actually, the misleading everyone to thinking Tobi is Obito, isn't really accidental.  People would take Madara more seriously than Obito.  So, it was part of their plan for Tobi to act under the shade of Madara.  Besides, it was under Madara's guidance that led Obito to becoming Tobi.  Up to Obito making himself the container for the Ten-Tails, "Everything that has transpired, has done so according" to Madara's design.  It's only until now that Madara's plan went off-rails.

 

 

 

Eh..., I've already thought that Kakashi's development has concluded when he met the apparition of his father during Pain's Invasion of Konoha.  Hell, if he died in that arc, it would've been fine.  At this point, Kakashi's just affirming the fact that he's finally moved on from the death of his comrades, as his duel with Obito and Zabuza showed.  

 

Fridge Brilliance: The first paragraph alone proves why Tobi is Obito was a good thing. Why? just like how the Alliance got duped like a bunch of idiots, the Tobito naysayers got duped big time as well. The naysayers kept wailing how it was impossible for Obito to be Tobi, just like how the Alliance believed that it was impossible that no one other than Madara could have done all of the things Tobi did. Basically, Kishi was trying to put us in the Alliance's shoes.

  

Bolded: Really? if Kakashi had truly moved on, then wouldn't he have been able to provide an answer to Obito about his regrets? it took Kakashi a while to actually come up with the answer.
 

[redragon88]

I find it pretty ridiculous that people keep saying over and over how Obito should've just gotten over Rin's death because that's how life is. No kidding that's how life is, and if everyone understood that then there wouldn't be conflict in the world.

 

Conflict arises from people that don't accept that's how life is. Madara didn't want to accept that he needed to slowly built trust with the people before becoming Hokage, Orochimaru didn't want to accept that at some point he was going to die, Nagato didn't want to accept that if people tried they could understand each other, and so on.

 

All conflict comes from people rejecting a certain idea and wanting to change them, and it's culminating with Obito rejecting the world itself.

 

And you have to remember that Obito is the anti-Naruto. He seeks to fulfill his own happiness. He's not creating to illusion world so that Rin can be revived and she can be happy, he's creating the illusion of Rin so that he can be happy.

 

He remembers Rin a lot, I don't see what's the problem with that. Rin represents that pain he feels in the real world and also the bliss he'll feel in the illusion world.

 

Can someone tell me exactly what's the problem of Obito thinking of Rin? Because so far it feels like it's just complaining for the sake of complaining.

[James S Cassidy]

Obito's character is awesome. Not awesome as in "Wow, he is strong" or "Wow, he is so cool," but rather "Wow, he is a really well designed character." People poke at the fact that his motive for all this is Rin's death and that he is a selfish, but given the circumstances that the love of his life died and his best was the one that killed her throwing his entire world upside down is kind of an interesting idea. Like what would happen if Batman killed Lois Lane. Superman would lose it.

I do though admit that I still wish Sasuke and Obito switched places. It seems more logical that Obito would be the one seeking revenge and always going on his own way occasionally siding with the good guys to achieve a selfish goal while Sasuke wants to change the world in his own image and control it to bring his clan back. It seemed that it would have fit just a little better in terms of the long run. Sure, you would have to change a few details here and there, but I think it would have worked.

Like I said, I am more interested in Obito's story than I am Sasuke's story or even Madara's for that matter

 

 

 

Bolded: Really? if Kakashi had truly moved on, then wouldn't he have been able to provide an answer to Obito about his regrets? it took Kakashi a while to actually come up with the answer.
 

 

I wouldn't say Kakashi has "moved on," but I will say that perhaps his survivors guilt has washed away. Think of this way, Kakashi, out of his whole team, was the only one to survive the war and everything else. Given that he couldn't protect any of them, he felt guilty for being the only survivor and possibly a coward. After he found out Obito survived, survivors guilt washed away. Sure, he is not too keen on what Obito is doing, but he no longer feels like he was the only one who survived.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 30 August 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[dejavu]

 

First of all, I'd like to address the Anti-Tobito theorists. Ok, seriously. Did anyone not see it coming from a mile away? I have to facepalm everytime I saw someone saying if Kishi proved the Tobito theory true, the manga would suck and it's bad storytelling and an asspull yadda, yadda. Seriously? To be honest, I saw the Tobito thing as one of the best things that happened in the manga. Why? because it directly triggered a certain underdeveloped character's development. Fans had been begging for it, and now they don't want it? Hypocrites.

 

 

when I saw his sharingan i already see him as Obito. never paid attention to those theories about Tobi's real identity..

i always thought it was plain obvious, and my instinct would tell my everything else is trying to mislead me from pointing to that simple answer. Likewise, the idea of Tobi being Obito is great.  If people actually pays attention to Kishimoto's way of doing things and stop overanalyzing and forcing the story towards their personal preference and making the manga something that its not, then it wouldn't be that hard to figure out or accept.

 

 

There is only one word that always comes to my mind when it comes to Obito.

 

Sad.

 

that's it. he was really a good boy.. when i read Kakashi Gaiden, i totally fell for his character.

It was him who changed Kakashi to the one i greatly admire today.

He was like a celebrity to a team 7 fan like me, thoughts like: "so those cool words/teachings of Kakashi came from HIM"

then it happened.

 

turns out he is not that strong of a person.

and the hero of this story is the one to show him what he should've done instead.

still he was just a sad thing in my eyes now. I don't hate him now, nor do i find his motivations silly. even the RinRinRin part

 

i just find it all as sad.

[Codus N]

I wouldn't say Kakashi has "moved on," but I will say that perhaps his survivors guilt has washed away. Think of this way, Kakashi, out of his whole team, was the only one to survive the war and everything else. Given that he couldn't protect any of them, he felt guilty for being the only survivor and possibly a coward. After he found out Obito survived, survivors guilt washed away. Sure, he is not too keen on what Obito is doing, but he no longer feels like he was the only one who survived.

 

Hmm... I wouldn't really say that actually. If anything, it's more like Kakashi's survivor guilt washed away, and then it's immediately replaced with suicidal guilt over his promise. That, and the guilt he must have felt (and probably still does) over how he's essentially the reason why the whole world has gone to hell in a handbasket.

 

Speaking of which, I'd actually like to see how Mei and he will face each other. Since she's being updated on Obito, I wonder how she'll face Kakashi, the man who's essentially the reason why her village went to hell.  

[redragon88]

@James S Cassidy

 

You mentioning Superman loosing it make me think of the game Injustice. I haven't played it but from what I hear the premise is that in an alternate universe the Joker makes Superman accidentally kill Lois and in retaliation Superman kills him, and afterwards decides to become some sort of World Dictator that isn't afraid to kill people who stand in his way, is that about right?

 

The point is that it's a pretty common theme in fiction for good people to go dark because they loose that one person the care for the most, so the particular hate that people give to Obito some times just baffles me.

 

 

when I saw his sharingan i already see him as Obito. never paid attention to those theories about Tobi's real identity..

i always thought it was plain obvious, and my instinct would tell my everything else is trying to mislead me from pointing to that simple answer. Likewise, the idea of Tobi being Obito is great.  If people actually pays attention to Kishimoto's way of doing things and stop overanalyzing and forcing the story towards their personal preference and making the manga something that its not, then it wouldn't be that hard to figure out or accept.

 

The bolded, very much so.

Edited by redragon88, 30 August 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[Awes9]

I find it pretty ridiculous that people keep saying over and over how Obito should've just gotten over Rin's death because that's how life is. No kidding that's how life is, and if everyone understood that then there wouldn't be conflict in the world.
 
Conflict arises from people that don't accept that's how life is. Madara didn't want to accept that he needed to slowly built trust with the people before becoming Hokage, Orochimaru didn't want to accept that at some point he was going to die, Nagato didn't want to accept that if people tried they could understand each other, and so on.
 
All conflict comes from people rejecting a certain idea and wanting to change them, and it's culminating with Obito rejecting the world itself.
 
And you have to remember that Obito is the anti-Naruto. He seeks to fulfill his own happiness. He's not creating to illusion world so that Rin can be revived and she can be happy, he's creating the illusion of Rin so that he can be happy.
 
He remembers Rin a lot, I don't see what's the problem with that. Rin represents that pain he feels in the real world and also the bliss he'll feel in the illusion world.
 
Can someone tell me exactly what's the problem of Obito thinking of Rin? Because so far it feels like it's just complaining for the sake of complaining.

Are you kidding seriously ? I think I made my point clear so I don't see how it's ridiculous. No one is asking Obito to get over it, what we don't understand is this OVERREACTION, ffs he killed all his family, his sensei, tried to attack his village, and so much more I can't count the numbers of people that Obito slaughtered all of that for his 12 years old crush that we have no clue about. You know I knew that this thread would end up with people calling others's people opinions ridiculous because I had the same debate in NF and while we gave pretty sound arguments what we got as a response was that we were butthurt because Tobi wasn't who we wanted him to be ( altough I never cared about Tobi's identity and was satisfied with the reveal ), or how much we don't understand true love or arguments of the same kind.
If you find Obito's fall good I am really happy for you, I personally find ridiculous that a character like him can become like that suddenly just because his 12 years old crush that didn't even return his feelings died.

I really don't see what's the point to create a thread like that if it's to call everyone's opinions who disagree with you ridiculous.

Edited by Awes9, 30 August 2013 - 10:54 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

@James S Cassidy

 

You mentioning Superman loosing it make me think of the game Injustice. I haven't played it but from what I hear the premise is that in an alternate universe the Joker makes Superman accidentally kill Lois and in retaliation Superman kills him, and afterwards decides to become some sort of World Dictator that isn't afraid to kill people who stand in his way, is that about right?

 

The point is that it's a pretty common theme in fiction for good people to go dark because they loose that one person the care for the most, so the particular hate that people give to Obito some times just baffles me.

 

 

The bolded, very much so.

Yeah, but instead of the Joker imagine Batman was the one that killed them. Your best friend kills the ones you love. Scary thought. If you thought Superman was bad then...imagine him after that. Actually that might not be a bad story comic.
 

 

 

Hmm... I wouldn't really say that actually. If anything, it's more like Kakashi's survivor guilt washed away, and then it's immediately replaced with suicidal guilt over his promise. That, and the guilt he must have felt (and probably still does) over how he's essentially the reason why the whole world has gone to hell in a handbasket.

 

Speaking of which, I'd actually like to see how Mei and he will face each other. Since she's being updated on Obito, I wonder how she'll face Kakashi, the man who's essentially the reason why her village went to hell.

So you disagree with me only to agree with and add on top of it?

Edited by James S Cassidy, 30 August 2013 - 11:14 PM.

[Nate River]

As a person, I despise Obito.

I feel no sympathy for him. Rin died, so what? His subsequent actions squash any emotion I might have felt for the tragedy. It's Mist that kidnapped her and set her up to die, but it's Kakashi, Konoha, and Minato to whom his directs most of his scorn. He kills numerous innocents and seeks to rob the rest of their free will in order to obtain a cheap imitation of a love he never had. It's pathetic and whatever redeeming qualities were lost. He's the type of tyrant who will take everything from you while telling you it's for the best. And it's worse, because no matter what he says this is really about himself.

Selfish and self-absorbed are often qualities that people use to describe Hinata. She has nothing on Obito.
 

find it pretty ridiculous that people keep saying over and over how Obito should've just gotten over Rin's death because that's how life is. No kidding that's how life is, and if everyone understood that then there wouldn't be conflict in the world.

Kakashi managed to move on.

Nothing encapsulates how worthless a human being Obito is like Kakashi. Kakashi suffered tragedy too. He had to deliver the killing blow to boot. I don't recall him murdering people in response or taking his pain out on everyone else.

As a character....meh. I'm not in love with the take over the world angle the manga took, but I don't really wish Tobi was anyone else because I don't know who would be better. I don't have enough attachment to Madara and Madara attachment to the current cast is nearly nil. Most of his most interesting moments as a character have come from him kittening about Hashirama.

As the anti-Naruto he's a bit of a flop. He's does a poor job making his case to Naruto and Naruto does an equally poor job in his refutation. What could have been an interesting dynamic has been bland and boring. It's been rather disappointing. I've not been impressed with either of them. His interactions with Kakashi were far more interesting.

As for his fall, I find it believable, but it also means that underneath the bravado and speech he was weak-willed compared to those around him. Or I guess I can blame it all on the Sharingan and it makes the so EVIL! He's pathetic, but I accept that he is.
 

Also, Obito's reasoning for doing all this.... I honestly am annoyed at how people say Obito's reasoning for all of this is lame and how he's a loser not meant to be sympathized. Why, you ask? because these people don't know it's like to lose your loved ones. I can't say that for myself, either but however I can empathize with Obito. If you push someone enough, they will snap. There are lots of cases like that in the world. Nagato lost his best friend and went off the deep end as well, so why can't this be applied to Obito? I'm seeing double standards here.

This is having your cake and eating it too. You complain about people saying he's a loser but they don't know what it's like to lose a loved one. However, (1) how do you know and (2) you get to empathize with him despite not have a comparable experience. Sweet!

Here's the deal. Many people have suffered such tragedy. The majority of them don't turn around and deal with it by murdering people. They especially don't respond by murdering innocents. His ultimate goal is absolute tyranny not matter how sweet it sounds. It'll be like the old adage: What government giveth, government can't taketh away. Many murderous tyrants have sold themselves as doing it for the people.

Also, Kakashi got pushed too. He didn't snap. That's why Obito is the loser and Kakashi is not. Oh yeah, and he didn't for something he never had. So he's a bit delusional, too.
 

Obito's character is awesome. Not awesome as in "Wow, he is strong" or "Wow, he is so cool," but rather "Wow, he is a really well designed character." People poke at the fact that his motive for all this is Rin's death and that he is a selfish, but given the circumstances that the love of his life died and his best was the one that killed her throwing his entire world upside down is kind of an interesting idea. Like what would happen if Batman killed Lois Lane. Superman would lose it.

People say he is selfish because he is, in fact, selfish.

She wasn't the love of his life. He just had a crush on her. It wasn't even mutual. Kurenai had the love of her life offed. I don't see dead bodies in her wake. Kakashi actually had to do the deed. He didn't deal with it by killing others and taking over the world.

Superman might off Batman, but would he then vaporize Gotham in the aftermath? If he does, then he is a loser too.

Oh yeah, Obito doesn't even get the "crime of passion" defense that Superman would have in your scenario. Obito has had years to deal with it and has failed to do so.

[tricksie]

@Nate, completely agree. I can't stand Obito, for all the reasons you've stated and then some.

 

One thing you mentioned is that Kakashi endured death and loss and didn't going on a lifelong sociopathic vengeance trip. I'll go one further and say that any survivor of the kyuubi attack could have chosen the same path but didn't. Iruka (his parents), Asuma and the Third Hokage (mother/wife), etc., etc., etc. Obito has inflicted way more pain, way more death, way more psychological trauma (he throws that around like some kind of f'd up Johhny Appleseed), than any other character in the manga.

 

All for a one-sided crush.

 

Which brings me to another beef with the manga right now. I wish Minato would flip out over the fact that it's his student being the one threatened to dash his brand new infant against the ground, ripped the kyuubi out of his wife (effectively killing her), and nearly wiped out his village. 

 

It is very convenient to the plot that Minato hasn't sworn to take him down, hasn't given an irrevocable sign that Obito is bad and only worth destroying (therefore not implying that he might somehow be worth saving). If Minato did, it would be hard for Naruto to redeem him in the future. And this is what I really dislike — that beloved characters are forced to act tremendously OOC to set up a villain's redemption.

 

If Minato asked Obito why he did it, in front of everyone, and he said "Oh, you know back when I was 12...you know, before I killed your wife, wiped out the village...before all that— Well, back when I was 12, I really liked Rin. I don't know if she liked me or not. In fact, I'm pretty sure she liked Kakashi. Anyway, Kakashi killed her. Er, looked like he killed her. I don't know why he did...uh, I haven't gotten around to asking him yet. And I assume she's dead...not just a jutsu from this crazy old Uchiha I was shackled to at the moment. So anyway...it was about that. Her. A girl. Yeah, so if you all will just look at the moon for me...."

 

There are two people there from Obito's childhood who A) should be appalled and calling him out on his behavior in contrast to who he was as a child, and B) would be able to correct whatever idea Obito has grown up believeing about Rin's death.

 

If Rin is the root of this problem, both Minato and Kakashi can shed a great deal of light on that, and possibly change Obito and bring the war to a halt. They have a greater weapon information than anything in Naruto's arsenal.

 

But neither Kakashi nor Minato has spoken to to Obito about Rin, holding him accountable. So Obito has been free to continue his villainy. So the plot is being contrived so Naruto can be the ultimate savior. 

[rocci]

Obito is a controversial character, at least kishi successfully deliver it.


Oh. Btw it all about executions.

[Codus N]

So you disagree with me only to agree with and add on top of it?

 

Eh.... it's not like that. It's hard for me to explain, but what I got from your post, you were saying as if the moment Obito was revealed, Kakashi's survivor guilt disappeared. When in fact, that's not really true. Basically, what I'm saying is, his chronic guilt disorder only got worse when Obito was revealed. 

[morgaine4]

Obito is selfish, his actions are selfish, he's harmed many people, and while he claims to have loved Rin he frankly seems to disrespect her (her memory, her decisions, the fact that she was a kunoichi) with most of his actions; having said that, I can't say that I have absolutely no sympathy for the character.  I definitely don't think his crimes should be forgiven, even if he does redeem himself in the end (after all, he destroyed the families of both of the lead males of this manga), but that doesn't mean that it's not important to sympathize with Obito on some level, or at least try to understand what happened with this character.  He's ill, he's been mentally ill since he activated his Sharingan and it seems that Madara was whispering in his ear to pushi him over the edge, and he became more ill after Rin's death --Rin's death did push him over the edge.

 

Though Kishimoto seems to refrain from delving too deep into details regarding the problems of this Shinobi World (though, I was so happy that he seemed to examine these problems during the flashback arc with Sasuke and the Edo Tensei Hokage), those little tidbits are important because those are the things that Naruto, the Messiah, the Child of Prophecy, is supposed to work to change --is supposed to succeed in changing.  And I think that one of the things that needs to be dealt with is the way in which mental illness from ninja-life trauma is dealt with (it's interesting that we've seen medics in this world, but we haven't seen medics who specialize in psychology or psychiatry.  Perhaps that's something that Sakura and Ino can head up.  Sakura has been shown to wonder about mental/emotional health several times, and Ino can literally infiltrate someone's mind.).

 

Just like in the real world, the Naruto-verse has examples of individuals who aren't all that affected by their world, either they are just incredibly grounded individual in right and wrong (Naruto, Minato), they're reaction to their mental scars are relatively harmless or at the very least don't harm other people and are used for a type of comic relief (Hiruzen, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Tsunade), and/or have been saved from having a potentially dangrous affliction by someone special to them (Kakashi, Gaara, even Nagato and Konan eventually); however, there are many characters in this world (and in our world) who aren't to survive war, to survive the life of a soldier, to survive the life of being a child soldier unscathed, who enter this life without being of the proper mindset to do so, individuals who are predisposed to a type of mental illness and no clan/family has been shown to be predisposed to mental illness in the way that the Uchiha clan is.  I know that several people are unhappy over how powerful Kishimoto has made this clan, but I've always felt that while the clan has been shown to be powerful in terms of battle techniques they've always been shown to be mentally/emotionally weak: we know that the Sharingan is activated after the trauma of losing important people, several members of the Uchiha clan have been shown to be obssesive, that obsession has often been shown to result in several other mental/emotional problems, has been shown to have dire (tangible) consequences.  I just hope that this is something that Kishimoto thoroughly explores, that this is something that he allows characters other than Naruto (and specifically medics) to explore/discuss.

 

I'm also extremely interested in the notion that Obito parallels dark Naruto, that Obito is who Naruto would be if something drastic happened to Sakura --so much so that at some point I want Naruto to believe that Sakura has been killed, because I want to see how he'll react differently from Obito.  I think it's obvious that while Obito is supposed to be Naruto gone wrong, Naruto wouldn't react in the same way.  For one thing, Naruto isn't Uchiha, he doesn't have that weakness, that predisposition to have an extremely obssesive, psychotic, depressed meltdown.  Naruto didn't have someone like Madara manipulating him for years (one could argue that Kuraama used to do this, but Naruto was saved from that fate by Iruka and Team 7).  And lastly, unlike Obito, we have seen time and again that Naruto actually respects Sakura, he admires, adores, and respects her strengths: her decision to become a medic, her physical prowess.  So while I think just like Obito, Naruto would be extremely devestated were something to happen to Sakura (or were he to think that something happened to Sakura), unlike Obito I would think that Naruto could react in such a way that showcases how much he respects who Sakura is, and what she'd stand for/what she'd want.  As devestated as Naruto would be, I don't think he'd be able to disrespect his memory of Sakur in the way Obito has been doing, or at least I hope that Naruto wouldn't be able to.

[Transformers03]

Obito is a controversial character, at least kishi successfully deliver it.


Oh. Btw it all about executions.

 

And that's the key word, it is all up to the execution. I have voiced my positive opinion on Obito being Tobi, so I wont say about that now. Instead I will bring up why people have issue with Obito being Tobi, which comes down to the execution. Even though I LOVED ch. 599 in how they showed Obito's life before essentially "dying", I would be honest and admit that Obito's descend to villainy wasn't very well executed.

 

The idea itself is sound; a person, who was just like Naruto, becoming to villain due to death due to the circumstances of a childhood crush's death and the manipulation of a bigger villain. It would show interesting parallels between main villain and hero, and would show that, maybe, Naruto may have become a villain. We just need more reason other than Rin's death for him to ultimately, because that would make it seem as if Naruto can so easily become a villain if someone close to him die, and, on the surface, it sounds very petty. I know a majority of the villains became villains because death of someone close, it is just that a majority of those villains were already kind of messed up to begin with. Nagato wasn't always the most well-adjusted person around, there was always darkness in him. Orochimaro(?) ALWAYS acted like a creep, and Sasuke..........well, we all know Sasuke's deal. It was the same for most of the other villains, so was believable to think they would become villains or were villains. Obito was different though, because he was a good kid. He didn't seem evil, and didn't really seem to have any kind of darkness in him beforehand. He may have been lonely, just like Naruto when he was kid (PARALLELS!!!!), but also just like Naruto, he tried to prove everyone wrong by getting stronger. However, while in general he was nice kid, he wasn't perfect. He wasn't good fighter, and he felt very envious towards Kakashi for being better. That mad him three-dimension character, that mad him likable and believable.

 

Yet, supposedly, all that went away by the simple death of Rin? Sure, beforehand he was crushed by a boulder and fused with a Zetsu, but there wasn't any indication that was cracking up. He seemed the same like he did before he got crushed; he was still determined as hell to get back to his team and he rightfully laughed at Madara's ridiculous plan to change the world. Yet somehow,just witnessing Rin die, he's like 

 

"Skrew it, and I am on Madara's side now, despite the fact that I mock his plan earlier."

 

And then suddenly he became the Tobi we all now love to hate, causing the death of possibly millions and manipulating several others to join him..............perfect sense 

 

Like I mention earlier, I do like Obito the character because he was, unlike most of the other current villains, he was very likable before his descend to villainy. An other thing that I mention earlier is the fact the idea, Obito becoming a villain, is alright. It just could have been done so much better than it turned out. One way would have been showing Madara actually getting through to Obito with his ideals, before Rin's death. That way he would be already debating with himself if Madara is right, and when he finally sees Rin die, then that would been the trigger that would convince him that Madara's right. Not only would show conflict in the character, but make his descend a lot more reasonable. An other idea that would work would have shown that after being crush he was also not mentally well afterwards. With a fragile mind, and little pushing by Madara, Rin's death could have been the perfect catalyst to push him over the edge. Or maybe, after Rin's death, he would work for Madara only under the pretense that he would do his bidding if would Rin. However, he would plan to betray Madara afterwards once he fulfills his promise, only to get corrupted by the action Madara makes him do.

 

I am only spit balling here, as there could have been MANY ways to make it better. Yet notice that I have always kept the part with Rin dying, that's because I see nothing wrong with her dying. While I feel kind of sexist to support an idea a female character dying to help a male character's development (WiR), but people DO do stupid things because of death. It is only human nature to allow death to overcome one's self, it is just that we need more for Obito. At least Nagato, they already imply that he wasn't all right up in his head before his friend's death, his death was just the wake-up call (that, and some manipulation by Obito, full-circle). We needed to see Obito already breaking before seeing Rin die, that ways it would seem reasonable and believable for him to join the dark side.

 

However, despite what I just said, I don't personally mind what we got in the manga anyways. Naruto never really had the sharpest of writing (though admittedly it came close around the second half of Part 1), so I wouldn't have expected them to get that complicated with a villain's reasoning. Besides, what we got I find really enjoyable. As mention earlier, 599 has been my favorite chapter in recent memory, and few of the scenes Obito's flashback were quite interesting to look at. Particularly the scenes where the Zetsus are cheering for Obito, and the scene where Obito attempts to hold Rin in his arms, only at first to realize that he can't touch her because of his justu (or whatever), is kind of heartbreaking. Not only that, yet Obito being the main antagonist brings emotional baggage to not only Kakashi, but, to some extant, Naruto (because he was father's student......and murderer). Not only that however, I personally feel sad that someone, who could have done great good to the world, did the exact the opposite of it. It creates an uneasy feeling in how if should understand his reasoning, or despise him the more. It has lead to some interesting scenes and dialogue, especially the part where he tells Kakashi that Rin's death wasn't the only thing that lead to his current situation (lier!) and how he mocks Naruto's naivety because he understands how he feels. The circumstances of Rin's death has also turn out to be more complicated originally thought, as most of didn't originally know what happen to her. When we first found out she died, we still didn't know about the situation she was in that allowed her to die, or how Kakashi was responsible. Then later, we found out Kakashi was the one that killed her, but we still didn't know why. We then find out that she jump in front of Kakashi so that he could kill her, because she had a tailed beast in her. With the circumstances of Rin's becoming more complicated than intentionally expected, I can't help but be invested in the storyline and desire to know more.

 

It really comes down to people's particular expectations of the manga, and how they interpretate the story. Having different interpretation is good, as it leads to good discussions, like the one we are having right now. In fact, because we are discussing this in such detail, then the story did something right for us to care.

[Nate River]

Which brings me to another beef with the manga right now. I wish Minato would flip out over the fact that it's his student being the one threatened to dash his brand new infant against the ground, ripped the kyuubi out of his wife (effectively killing her), and nearly wiped out his village. 
 
It is very convenient to the plot that Minato hasn't sworn to take him down, hasn't given an irrevocable sign that Obito is bad and only worth destroying (therefore not implying that he might somehow be worth saving). If Minato did, it would be hard for Naruto to redeem him in the future. And this is what I really dislike — that beloved characters are forced to act tremendously OOC to set up a villain's redemption.
 
If Minato asked Obito why he did it, in front of everyone, and he said "Oh, you know back when I was 12...you know, before I killed your wife, wiped out the village...before all that— Well, back when I was 12, I really liked Rin. I don't know if she liked me or not. In fact, I'm pretty sure she liked Kakashi. Anyway, Kakashi killed her. Er, looked like he killed her. I don't know why he did...uh, I haven't gotten around to asking him yet. And I assume she's dead...not just a jutsu from this crazy old Uchiha I was shackled to at the moment. So anyway...it was about that. Her. A girl. Yeah, so if you all will just look at the moon for me...."
 
There are two people there from Obito's childhood who A) should be appalled and calling him out on his behavior in contrast to who he was as a child, and B) would be able to correct whatever idea Obito has grown up believeing about Rin's death.
 
If Rin is the root of this problem, both Minato and Kakashi can shed a great deal of light on that, and possibly change Obito and bring the war to a halt. They have a greater weapon information than anything in Naruto's arsenal.
 
But neither Kakashi nor Minato has spoken to to Obito about Rin, holding him accountable. So Obito has been free to continue his villainy. So the plot is being contrived so Naruto can be the ultimate savior.

Most of Kishimoto's redemption stories suffer from some form of this problem. It seems like he wants them all to be as clean as possible. Specifically, he wants the entire cast, or as much as possible, accepting that they are redeemed no matter the carnage they inflict. We've been over how that was done with Pain. It appears in Sasuke with him being constantly redirected before he can fly past the moral event horizon. It's unfortunate too, I think it's a missed chance to challenge himself and the reader and the result is as you said....people are having to ignore or glide past the elephant in the room so the redemption is a clean one.

I give Kakashi half credit for coming to the big boy decision that he needed to die.

Oh, that'd be an interesting conversation. Obito blaming Minato as if he has no other obligations or duties to anyone else besides those things on which Obito places value. But we all know Minato would accept fault and say "I'm sorry" when he shouldn't be. He'd feed the delusion rather than call his student out on it. I have hope that some day someone will manage to do it. Even Naruto struggles with this and he watched Obito kill Neji.

So yeah, incredibly self-absorbed and selfish.

I'm also extremely interested in the notion that Obito parallels dark Naruto, that Obito is who Naruto would be if something drastic happened to Sakura --so much so that at some point I want Naruto to believe that Sakura has been killed, because I want to see how he'll react differently from Obito. I think it's obvious that while Obito is supposed to be Naruto gone wrong, Naruto wouldn't react in the same way. For one thing, Naruto isn't Uchiha, he doesn't have that weakness, that predisposition to have an extremely obssesive, psychotic, depressed meltdown. Naruto didn't have someone like Madara manipulating him for years (one could argue that Kuraama used to do this, but Naruto was saved from that fate by Iruka and Team 7). And lastly, unlike Obito, we have seen time and again that Naruto actually respects Sakura, he admires, adores, and respects her strengths: her decision to become a medic, her physical prowess. So while I think just like Obito, Naruto would be extremely devestated were something to happen to Sakura (or were he to think that something happened to Sakura), unlike Obito I would think that Naruto could react in such a way that showcases how much he respects who Sakura is, and what she'd stand for/what she'd want. As devestated as Naruto would be, I don't think he'd be able to disrespect his memory of Sakur in the way Obito has been doing, or at least I hope that Naruto wouldn't be able to.

I don't think anyone would disagree with what Obito's role is. That's not the contention. The contention is that he has served that role poorly.

As for the manipulation...it's an excuse. And a cheap one at that. It's a foisting of responsibility onto someone else. First, Obito chose his own path in executing the plan after Madara died. That blood is one his hands, period. Second, it was even that much of a manipulation. He offered other paths, but there is nothing to show that he was constantly teasing him and leading him on or using any special techniques or even that it was over an extended period of time (we have no idea how long it was).

And it was Obito that went to Madara after Rin died because he couldn't deal with the outcome. There is nothing to show that Madara manipulated the events that resulted in any of the tragedies that happened to Obito. Madara offered his view on life and his solution and did not force him to do anything when Obito said no. When life didn't give him the outcome he wanted HE went back to Madara and accepted it. Unless, Madara set up the mist to do what they did (and I would DESPISE it if that was done, because it would be a bail out Kishimoto's part) then Obito owns it and still Obito chose to stomp on everyone else in getting to where he was.

So, personally, manipulation or not, Obito's garbage.

[KnS]

Most of Kishimoto's redemption stories suffer from some form of this problem. It seems like he wants them all to be as clean as possible. Specifically, he wants the entire cast, or as much as possible, accepting that they are redeemed no matter the carnage they inflict. We've been over how that was done with Pain. It appears in Sasuke with him being constantly redirected before he can fly past the moral event horizon. It's unfortunate too, I think it's a missed chance to challenge himself and the reader and the result is as you said....people are having to ignore or glide past the elephant in the room so the redemption is a clean one.

 

Kishimoto must specifically want or believe such character redemption is necessary in a story with a demographic that includes really young kids.  He has consistently limited himself to less traumatic, and ultimately unrealistic, results for his "evil" characters and their choices.  But it's strange; he doesn't shy away from visceral violence, or the grotesque, or the emotionally painful, yet draws the line at allowing any of his characters to stay "bad."

 

I agree with tricksie that Minato is the one who should confront Obito.  And really, it would be a prime bit of characterization for both Minato and Naruto, giving readers some context as to how Naruto might have come by his direct attitude and righteous dedication to the truth even when it's painful.  

 

Naruto has already confronted a lot of characters, and Sasuke remains on the list.  Why couldn't Minato have had the chance to TnJ Obito?  In my opinion, it would have been perfect.  Instead we got his rendition of the overused "I have utterly failed at everything" spiel.

 

His ultimate goal is absolute tyranny not matter how sweet it sounds. It'll be like the old adage: What government giveth, government can't taketh away. Many murderous tyrants have sold themselves as doing it for the people.
 

 

It's no secret that I don't care for Obito -- for all the reasons stated by Awes9, Nate River, and tricksie -- but it is Nate's point above that I detest the most.  As revealed so far, at least, I cannot sympathize with or relate to Obito much, and compared to the destruction and senseless suffering he has wrought, his motivation is insufficiently affecting and doesn't fly.   

 

For me, Obito's characterization breaks down exactly because he's supposed to be the "anti-Naruto." In my view, the concept fails completely because as it has been presented it's a paradox:  Obito can't be like Naruto, with the same feelings, goals, and team situation -- theoretically making him deserving of our sympathy and support -- and yet not be like Naruto at all in the way he has responded to tragedy.  

 

Kishimoto stood up a rushed comparison of Obito's past and Naruto's.  Despite dreaming big dreams, Obito was overshadowed by his more innately skilled, genius teammate who he designated as his rival, and fancied the girl who fancied that rival.  This rushed comparison is apparently supposed to be powerful enough to generate equal feelings for Obito that readers have for Naruto.

 

The problem is, if Naruto's positive growth had been cut off at the same point Obito's was, I wouldn't feel the way about Naruto that I do.  The reason Naruto is a likeable, heroic, and sympathetic character is because he chose to set aside the tragic beginnings of his life, his personal longings, to work harder than others while shouldering a lot of responsibility and on-going hardship, with the determination to move past his disappointments and continue reaching for his goals.

 

We didn't see Obito do any of that.  He broke down almost immediately, essentially sitting in a pool of pity and spooning it over himself.  I guess we're supposed to just assume he would have been as great as Naruto if he hadn't had such a bad turn.  But the truth is, Obito's disappointments before he was crushed by the landslide were nothing Naruto hasn't also endured, and Naruto's sufferings have been far worse than Obito's overall.  Contrast and compare.

 

My personal assessment of Obito is that he is a weak, selfish, whining failure with no discernable reason for his actions.  He says he doesn't care about the world -- that he doesn't care about anything anymore -- that there's no point to anything and there's nothing left in the world that's worth redemption.  And yet he has gone to considerable effort to construct the situation they are all in now.  It's another paradox: either he cares or he doesn't.  Either there's a point to his plan or there isn't.  Either he's searching for meaning or he isn't.

 

If he doesn't care about anything or anyone remaining in the world, why does he wish to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi?  It's not for the world, so is it just so he will feel better?  So he can feel relieved of his pain and suffering?  If that's his motivation, how is that going to work?  I didn't think genjutsu affected the person who casts it?  How is it a win for him?  Or am I missing something?

 

The irony is, Obito truly is the "anti-Naruto" -- just not in the way Kishimoto might have intended, or the way some readers perceive him.  Naruto is deep, caring, courageous, thoughtful, resilient, optimistic, idealistic, and most of all he is selfless.  Obito displays the opposite of all those qualities.  Truly the opposite.

 

That being said, I don't have an issue with other readers liking or sympathizing with Obito.  To each their own, right?  But that needs to be a two-way street.  In my opinion, there are more compelling reasons and evidence to condemn Obito than to pity or support him, and to suggest that people who see him negatively are unfair, just stubborn, or lacking in life experience is unfair.

Edited by KnS, 31 August 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

I'll be honest with you...I still find Obito much better than Sasuke. Ironically, for the very same reasons you all pointed out for Obito.

[morgaine4]

As for the manipulation...it's an excuse. And a cheap one at that. It's a foisting of responsibility onto someone else. First, Obito chose his own path in executing the plan after Madara died. That blood is one his hands, period. Second, it was even that much of a manipulation. He offered other paths, but there is nothing to show that he was constantly teasing him and leading him on or using any special techniques or even that it was over an extended period of time (we have no idea how long it was).
 

There's a difference between excusing behavior and contextualizing behavior.  Obito's actions are his actions, I'd not denying that, I'm not excusing that, and I don't think that his manipulative, self-absorbed, cowardly terrorism should be excused within the manga; but still, I'm interested in how the system affected this boy who was too young for war (thus vulnerable to be lead astray, remember assuming that Obito and Kakashi are about the same age, Obito was only about 14-15 when Naruto was born, when he destroyed Naruto's family), he was 13 when Madara told him his story/began to groom him.  It's not excusing his behavior to consider these thing, but assigning responsibility to all the individuals and institutions involved.  Obito is responsible for his actions, but Madara is responsible for the way in which he manipulated a child, the system and Konoha are responsible for thrusting an unprepared child onto the front lines, the Uchiha are responsible for associating mental illnesses with power (for preferring that power, over mental stability).  These are things that Naruto and his people will have to be aware of, and consider when he (with their help) work to change a flawed system.