Nate River

Anime, bah, my wife hogs the TV anyway. Video games is what I’m going . FF7 remake, ff14, persona 5 royal etc. 

The pairings and the ending can't be looked at separately. It was trash because of them.

 

You can't force all 3 main characters (team 7) into roles they were never meant to be in and have anything positive come out of it. Every other character is connected to one or more of them in some way and so they fail to get a proper resolution because of the main 3 not getting a proper resolution.

 

Everyone should understand that nothing good will come out of something that is FORCED. Naruto forces himself to be with Hinata and so he is miserable. A good movie comes out and the studio forces a sequel to make more money and so it sucks. Kishi forces himself to do NHSS for whatever reason and his work as well as all offshoots of it suck (and I get the impression he wasn't even prescient enough to know that this would happen. For whatever reason.)

 

There aren't very many exceptions to this. If something good comes out of something that was forced then it's because someone with talent and passion for whatever it is got involved. No one like that works at SP.

 

Don't ever force anything creative that you do. It will suck.

 I disagree. The pairings were an ember to an already burning dumpster fire. Had they been done well, they could have mitigated the terrible ending, but they were not the cause and they would not have saved it.

 

Part 2’s main objective was to set up the Naruto-Sasuke fight at the end. As it progressed it was clear it was setting both a physical and metaphysical fight. But the whole thing fell on its face because Sasuke never developed a coherent philosophy that audience could at least understand or emphasize with. It made no sense at all. Worse, after they draw, Sasuke basically says, okay let’s do it your way. He doesn’t appear sold on Naruto’s way and nothing is said to make a convince case why Sasuke should have agreed other than that his own was so poor, Naruto’s wins by default. He lost a fight..so what? What did that show him about Naruto’s philosophy or what did he come to understand in the process. Nothing that I can see. 

 

Speaking of philosophy, the pairings had nothing to do with the series, and Naruto in particular, avoiding natural (and expected) reactions to Naruto redemptions. Gedo Mazo, leaving it to nameless mooks to cheer Kakashi nearly killing Obito, etc. 

 

Changing the pairings or improving the writing around would not have fixed that. It would have no given Kaguya a character or undone Naruto’s “cool guy” line,

 

The parings were bad, but pale in comparison to everything else because they all deal with the series core plot and basic message. For me, the pairings were a major contributor this mess in only one case and that was 693 when Sakura’s entire character development was tossed in the trash, but then again, by that point, it was already an disaster that couldn’t be fixed.

Remember, the novelization of the Last had Naruto admitting to himself that he got with her out of guilt and Kishimoto himself said that relationship was created out of pity for Hinata. So yeah, the foundations of their "love" is built out of misguided guilt, obligation and pity. Romantic, ain't it?

As for the Bolt thing, IIRC, didn't Sasuke more or less tell Sakura in the manga that the only reason he was home more often was because Sarada? So, the reason these couples haven't divorced yet is because of their kids.

 

Well that and there is no incentive to write such a story line which is bound to be both poorly received and poorly executed.

Epitome of bs of this manga is not even pairings, yeah it's a dissaster on it's own, but what was the goal of jorney? MC getting recognition, achiving a tittle he was dreaming of since early childhood, where was this moment, a culmination of all the hardwork he did put in? Ch.699? Where he silently gets cucked by a dude who chapter ago was threating him and a whole world with a tyrany of "nuclear weapons" in his hands. Ch. 700? That is basicly a promoution to another manga, we get a glimpse of him wearing a hokage outfit, a mountain with his face on it, but whats the difference? We basicly get a suggestion that he got what he wanted. But was it satisfying for you? Whats the difference if he was showed in a jonin or anbu outfit or even his gravestone and still having a face on mountain meaning that he was hokage at one point? Difference is that there was no reaction from MC himself or those that surrounded him on his journey, and if that's not a lazy writting, I don't know what is.

I agree that the pairings are a mess, but far from the primary issue. Naruto got his recognition from the village at the end of the Pain arc. He got it from the onscreen cast much earlier than that. The formal resolution of this plot thread is what left him a character without direction. Other than get Sasuke back, there wasn’t a whole lot for him to do. I think tricksie made a very compelling case several years ago that the the original ending of the manga was much closer to the Pain arc.

I think we get the world peace stuff from him because he needed something to do while Sasuke’s motivations got retrofitted. His primary goals had largely been met. No, he was not Hokage yet, but he I think he had earned it by that point. It was tied to his recognition goals as that was part of the reason he wanted to be it in the first place.

And for anyone that missed this, a while back James recounts someone saying that there was this comment stating how Sakura is useless and weak because she is using hand-me down techniques that Tsunade taught her, but Hinata's jutsus are UNIQUE or she at least worked hard to create them or something along those lines. Anyone want to take a crack at demolishing this piece of kitten argument? I sure have stuff to say about it.
 

 

Simple. The utility and strength of a technique has no relation to whether it was developed by its users or learner from another. In other words, who cares if its an original or not? If you like her character better for it. Great, but it doesn’t have any bearing on her strength or usefulness of a character.

 

As an aside, did the manga actually say her technique was an original? Do we know how hard she worked?

3) If you donated to Vic’s legal fund, I hate to tell you this: You got scammed. I was suspicious immediately when that Reiketa guy and Ty Beard made that GoFund me page; I know lawyers are an expensive ordeal, but I would think an attorney and his client could work something out if money was an issue, and I personally think that Vic could have afforded this on his own.

This isn’t fair. I think you underestimate just how expensive they can get. Second, even if you had it, you don’t save money, so you can burn it on legal services. What is spent here is not spent on something else. From his perspective, why should he puts his savings at risk for other people ruining his reputation and costing him job. He is no longer employed as a VA, so I dunno if he has any income coming in.

I am not offering an opinion on the validity of his claim, but I can imagine that is how he might see. The result is uncertain and there is always the possibility that he cannot recoup attorneys fees from the other party and/or ends up with a judgment that’s effectively unenforceable. I doubt the other parties were what attorney’s call “judgment proof,” but if he won and got say $1,000,000 and they didn’t have the assets to cover it, he’s not going to see it all.

I don’t think there is anything untoward about it.

But I never would have suspected the case would have went THIS bad. I read about what happened, and Ty Beard made Lionel Hutz seem competent by comparison. More specifically, the whole thing with the affidavits. He forged Vic’s signature, didn’t get it notarized (yes, you NEED a notary to see you make the signature).

I think you mean Miguel Sanchez. And yeah, that’s the whole point of a notary. I know I am personally very insistent on that the notorary witness the actual signing, not just notorize it after I’ve signed it. You’d be surprised how lazy people, including the notaries themselves, can be about this. The notary is there as a witness to the person signing the document.

Now, I’m not saying that there aren’t bad judges out there, because there are. I don’t know enough about Chup’s history to make a conclusion either way, but I’d imagine he knew Texas law well enough to inform his decisions. Chances are he’s never heard of Vic, and I doubt he’s watched any anime to have some fanboy opinion. I admit I’m no lawyer, but I imagine many lawyers have to go through some prep in assuming judges would be very strict with them.

He might be, but you cannot assume it. All Texas judges are elected and come from a variety of backgrounds. He likely is there because he won an election, nothing more. There are judge-based CLE that all new judges must go through, but that doesn’t automatically prepare you for everything. I’ve been in front of newly elected judges before. You don’t assume that role automatically prepared. Thus, you cannot automatically up assume to speed on all types of cases that could come before him. You would want to know things like how long he had been judge, prior legal work etc. District court judges handle both civil and criminal work, he could be from one background and had to learn the other as he went. I’m not making any assertions about this particular judge, but just saying you shouldn’t make those kind of assumptions without looking into it.

On top of that, other lawyers outside of the case have been saying for a while now that a defamation was going to be very hard for Vic to win while Nick was saying it would be a slam dunk (apparently not). And what does ISWV do? Claim they are not real lawyers who know nothing. I think you should be at least a little bit suspicious when people outside the case are vehemently claiming the odds are stacked against Vic.

The first amendment makes defamation cases notoriously hard to win. I’m not sure there is a civil cause of action that is more difficult to make. New York Times v. Sullivan lays out all the various types of standards. My understanding is that Vic was deemed a limited-use/purpose public figure, which would have made success very difficult.

6) The lawsuit has only made things WORSE for Vic. Now more mainstream media outlets know about his allegations and now the worst of the trolls are associated with him by default. The sad thing is, if Vic just went away and kept quiet for a bit, he could have made a comeback with some other company. Just enacting the lawsuit alone is going to guarantee no other major company is going to hire him to avoid being sued themselves. If anything it seems Vic’s worst enemies are his own fans.

I’m doubtful he could have done that as easily as you say. Every time word got out that he’d gotten work, the KickVic would almost certainly have mobilized to get him fire. Seen it way too many times, and social media makes it easy to do. Whoever had employed would have to have the stones to ignore them, something I doubt they’d have.

7) The behavior of the other VAs are not relevant.
Yes, maybe you’ve shown that Schemmel and Sabat and several others are not people I want to hang out with. The difference between them and Mignoga are that they seem to conduct themselves appropriately at conventions and with fans. If they’re kitten people, at least they’re smart enough to do their kitten behind closed doors where it only affects them. Vic didn’t; he’s apparently pissed off enough people outside of work to warrant his scrutiny

C’mon man. You admit earlier in the post you disbelieve Chuck Huber based on what you’d heard about him. That’s relevance. To say, it is irrelevant is to overstate it. You are right to the extent, that the ultimate question is whether Vic was defamed and thus, whether what was said about his was true. That Sabat may be bad doesn’t mean Vic was defamed, but its going to be looked at determining whether anyone should believe him.

I think when people complain about it, its more about perceived fairness or justice, i.e. “These turds who are tossing him under the bus suck too, why is he only punished, it must be because.....[insert theory here]”

Id like to talk about politics here because all posts are about what members here are against which is social justice. Theres so much negativity.
If you were elected what would you talk about?Would you take tests like these and share your results?https://www.politicalcompass.org/
I got left libertarian; https://www.politica...=-7.25&soc=-6.0

I closed out the window before I saved the link. Slight to the right economically (3 dots right) and slight toward libertarian (1 dot down). I was a lot closer to the center than I thought I’d be.

Disappointment?

I honestly dont remember any specifics and Im too lazy too search posts that old. Im sure I trashed the chapter, but by that point that was dependable as a sun rise.

I do recall that by that point my unhappiness with the overall plot and characterization that I didnt care all that much about the pairing, at least not to the degree that it would have much earlier in the series. I also recall that my opinion was that the ending would still have sucked even if it ended NS. Nothing Kishimoto did could save it from all the other problems.

Naruto still would have said Obito is a cool guy, Kabuto and Orochimaru would still have escape meaningful punishment despite their enormous crimes, Kaguya would still have been an empty shell, and Sasuke getting off scott free was a certanty. NS would not have saved it from any of that. There was no way Sasuke wasnt going to skate given Narutos development and goals. He never would have accepted a jailed Sasuke as returning to the village. Bringing back meant being a member in good standing as well. Unless Boruto was going to be about what comes next (for ninja and Sasuke etc.), then that was a guarantee.

I thought the fight was the only good thing in that it was short and too the point. The metaphysical aspect mattered more than the physical and drawing it out would not have helped it. Unfortunately, the metaphysical aspect was awful. Naruto never had to deal with the most problematic part of his ideals (unlike the 3rd who payed dearly for his soft heart) and Sasuke never developed a coherent ones. Worse yet, what he did develop was not something anyone would sympathize with or support. Rooting for Sasuke at that junction would be like rooting for Stalin.

Now, I was a little surprised that Naruto and Kakashi through the weight of their position and status and position to push for his freedom and that the series appeared to treat this as a positive. He got special treatment because he was Sasuke and that was a positive? Well, I guess it shouldnt be surprised. Karin sought Sasuke out and accept his apology for trying to murder her. I mean its not as bad as the series glossing of Obitos horrific acts, but it was pretty painful. Part 2 is filled with that kinda of kitten, so I think I expected to be disappointed. Nevertheless, my lack interest in the pairing at that point made it a kind of meh. Just another scoop of trash on an ending already full of it. With or without NS, Id have hate the ending. What disappointments me the most is that it wasted a great world and interesting characters.

As for the fandom....was I disappointed. No, I expected it. We have to ban a bunch of accounts created just to rub it and I remember the wall of Anal Devastation. I think I might have been mildly disappointed I didnt make it. But we had plenty of users who openly said that if NS became canon theyd run over to NF and do what they tried to do us.

I was surprised in another way. I never thought hed render an entire characters personal journey moot the way he did with Sakura. 693 reseting her 500 chapters and returning her to 181 counterpart....was not what I thought would happen even if we got SS, but if that was the way she was gonna be written, then they can have their pairing. No thanks.

Nagatos Gedo Mazo.

I loathed that moment because it meant Naruto would never have to justify his actions to those people who Nagato had wronged. Its one thing for Naruto to chose to set aside his hate, its another to do it on everyone elses behalf without their involvement or consent. Gedo Mazo relieved him of this duty. This was the beginning of a pattern that would plague the series the rest of the way.

Oh, Masashi didn't write that. That was someone else. Remember, there was an interview with the writer who admitted he/she didn't do research on the manga and wanted to write about the topic of love for The Last.

Is that why a character who had a very mature view and understanding of love at the end of part 1, suddenly turned into Goku for the movie. It’s the worst part of the movie for that reason. One reason Naruto was so likeable was because he was genuinely a nice guy. He put her happiness ahead of his own even at the expense of his own. These were some of his best moments and the last crapped all over it when this change.

"Okay, I'm not even going to read the rest of what you wrote there. All I need is the bold words to call BS. The left gets offended at anything and everything, end of story."

That's another problem. Never bothering with reading entire statements; instead just picking and choosing one tiny part of it that contradicts what one is trying to say and then trying to frame it as negatively as possible regardless of what the rest of the statement contains. Like AOC makes statements about methane from cow farts and the right wing tries to make it sound like she's saying all cows should be banned, or she comments about faster, more efficient travel, like faster trains, besides just air travel and suddenly that's turned into her saying "ban air travel".

 

It's unfortunate. Your point is a good one.

 

Your example is terrible. The right wing claimed she said that because it was, in fact, said. It was on her own website and in a document that her own office passed off to several media outlets. When she was mocked for it by righties and some lefties, she lied (and much of the media) lied about it and then sifted to claiming the release was accidental. It was in material deliberately released by her office. You can't slink away from that one.

 

Sanders is by far the most popular blue candidate. He raised more for his campaign than any other, with 30$ each per donation. With how the dems won congress last year I think blue can win. Trumps reign has pushed people to the right but he also pushed people to the left.

 

It's almost a year out from the first primary, people are still declaring (and they are still waiting on Biden). Its very early and doesn't mean much. As for Congress, GOP thought the same thing in 2012 after an even bigger Congressional win in 2010 than the Dems had in 2018  and it didn't work out. It's very common for the party in power to lose seats in the first midterm follow and election. Bush 43 was a rare exception. It's not really a good or accurate measure of success on the presidential level. 

 

 

 

Also, how tf does Sanders still have supporters after that BS he pulled during the last presidential race? Selling out to Hillary and practically stabbing his supporters in the back? 

 

So far, 2020 is not looking good for the left, but there IS one Democrat I hope does somewhat well. I forget his name, but his views on technology taking over blue collar jobs has me at least somewhat interested in him. Sanders and the other socialist wannabes can take a hike.

 

 

BS he pulled? It was Sanders that got screwed for the DNC. He had no obligation to just stand aside and had it too her (though the DNC clearly thought he did). As far as the 2020, I'll say the same as I did to sushi. It's early. Wake me in 2020.

 

Biden is the one they most fear the most. Trump's electoral victory came from the rust belt going red in that election. Biden is thought to still be well like among the voters in those areas.

Nope. It just went away.
Hinatatas blew hot air about it against Neji (only after "N-N-Naruto-kun" "cheered" for her) and then Hiashi was the one who went to Neji after his loss to Naruto, explained the truth of what happened with Hizashi, and begged for Neji's forgiveness. After the Chunin Exam and the invasion though, the Hyuga became irrelevant (despite Hiashi boasting about it being "the strongest") and, as we know, only forced into looking so important again with Kaguya and crap because of Hinatatas being handed her D.
But come "Boruto", there is never any mention about it. The most we got of the Hyuga was Hanabi training Boruto and co. (and in just that little time, she proves herself SO much better than Hinatatas in every way; an actual, likeable personality, looks so much better, and has kept up and improved her combat skills with the Jyuken) and, as mentioned, Hiashi just being a pampering grandfather, but at this point, I doubt they're ever going to actually address it.
Even if something was done about it, it was most likely Hiashi and Hanabi's efforts and NOTHING to do with Hinatatas. Hinatatas got her D and that's all that mattered. She even married OUT of the clan to Boruto's dad and thus she would now have NO say on what goes inside now that she's an "outsider" (and yet the "goddess" couldn't be allowed to be "tainted" and so she is allowed to leave the clan WITHOUT any seal, much less the Caged Bird Seal, to protect the Byakugan), thus dropping the burden of next Clan Head onto Hanabi. And Boruto's dad, as Hokage, would not be able force the issue without risking the Hyuga's revolting for interfering in their personal clan matters.
Fanfics were so much better with the theories about the Sharingan being a mutation of the Byakugan (largely because of how they function quite similarly in ways, like seeing chakra pathways in people and such) and the first Hyuga member to get it escaped and created the Uchiha Clan and began the Byakugan vs. Sharingan rivalry. This was only further theorized during Sasuke vs. Itachi, with itachi bringing up (the dropped plot point of) the Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan having to do with Kurama's chakra, leading to fanfics now having the foundation of that Hyuga member coming across Kurama somehow and making a contract with him and thus Kurama's chakra is what mutated the Byakugan into the Sharingan and that connection also being why Kurama was able to be summoned and controlled by it.

I think this misses the point of the Hyuuga Clan stuff. I wish I could remember who said it, so I could credit them for the idea, but I cannot. But as a writer, when Kishimoto wanted to make a new point or raise a new idea, hed create a new character. There are multiple reasons Narutos cast ended up being so bloated, but this was a big one.

In my opinion, the Clan drama was somewhat ancillary to the concepts Hinata was used for. She was closer to Lee than to Neji in terms of ideas she represented. She could have been from a family and still done that. Her being a Hyuuga mattered for more to Nejis character than her own. For Neji, it was the whole thing because Nejis big concept was Fate/Destiny. For obvious reasons, Neji was a complete fatalist, which was a concept/belief Naruto would loathe. Aside from this obvious clash, Naruto also possessed something Neji did not have: freedom. The Hyuuga Clan really just exists for this. Their eye, the Byakugan, didnt matter in terms of story telling device. Presenting the concept and Naruto overcoming/responding to it was the purpose of their fight.

This story was about Naruto and Sasukes conflict. Fate had nothing to do with Sasuke or their conflict (at least until that they become heros of destiny). Spending a lot of time dealing it doesnt do anything for this and doing so in detail (and doing it well) would not be short. It would only really matter if the romantic subplot became an integral part of the plot (at least on the level the fandom gave to it). If it was and Hinata was intended to be pushed, then yeah it becomes more necessary because its tied to her. If you wanted a well developed romantic subplot with that aspect of characters heavily developed and in a way that impacts the core plot, then yeah, you do that because youve made it apart of who she was. However, the romantic subplot didnt matter that much and really didnt matter to the core conflict. And no, I dont think this justifies doing absolute nothing meaningful about about her individual relationship with Naruto, but it is a legitimate reason not to spend a ton of time with her clan stuff.

That said, he went Naruto/Hinata and the whole Neji/Hiashi thing really doesnt resolve the whole clan thing that was apart of the story. It repaired their invidual relationship and implicitly gives Neji the freedom he didnt have. But it seemed that the resolution was purely personal with those two characters when Nejis issue with the clan went beyond that. Moreover, the fate of the clan was something heavily talked about throughout the fandom. So, I think a nice blurb about who leads it and its current state needed to be included to finish this up and round it out. But a detailed one? No, I think that fan fiction is the appropriate realm for that given the story Kishimoto chose to tell.

After the second arc the story was the NaruSasu bromance oddessey. The fact that they were ninja was secondary. If the priority of those were reverse and Naruto path to recognitation and to the position of Hokage were the primary story (and NaruSasu the secondary), then its inclusions becomes much more feasible, especially if the story is kept more local and not turned into a world war.

I was thinking about it because I remembered that Shion character...and I can't rememer any other filler character. But I remember her. And it's funny, until she was side-by-side with Hinata, I did remember her looking so similar. But it's crazy! They're like identical filler characters!! 
 
Anyway, it made me wonder if there was some positive feedback on her as a pairing for Naruto, and maybe they kept that in mind when they shifted to Hinata. Because of ALL the cool/scary/fierce female characters in ALL the Naruto universe, why on earth did they settle on Hinata? 
 
You know? Why her? 
 
She's marginally attractive, marginally powerful. But, overall, she's 'Meh.' Her most endearing quality is that she's SAFE. She doesn't threaten anyone in any way. 
 
I get that she's the anti-Sakura. But really, when you think about it, in the whole of the Naruto-verse, there were so many other powerful cool female leads that could have brought so much more to the story.
 
The cute blue-haired jinchuriki.
The badass blonde captain from the Cloud village. 
You could make any number of combinations of outright attractiveness or hidden beauty, with wild powers and scary techniques. 
 
They could have engineered another awesome female lead, even at the end of the story.
 
Which makes me wonder, did they go back through Naruto, see which characters clicked popularity-wise, then give Hinata a little more of those aspects. Enough to make her look like she evolved in some small way, but not enough to make her threatening.  
 
 Because in the end, even Shion would have made more sense with Naruto than Hinata.

The one thing I’ll never understand is if Hinata was the intended love interest for as long as people say, why on earth did Kishimoto do nothing with them during the Team 8 arc? There was plenty of chances for meaningful interaction and we got none. It didn’t even have to be romantic. Just something to deepen there bond or at least suggest some kind of mutual interest. I think there was a rehash of her fainting, which is the main manga in a nutshell. It repeated the same stuff it established in part 1, but never did anything to move the ball. Just restatements. That Team 8 arc neglect (and 297) are the biggest reason I’ve never been able to buy the idea it was intended all along.

Yeah so, did they ever even address the bird seal of the hyuuga clan? Or did it just conveniently go away? 
 
I know it's a nice fan-ficcy thing to attach to Hinata, but I don't ever remember her making a stand about it against her father and clan history. (If it was in the anime, then I didn't see it.) And just because Naruto beat up/won over Neji, doesn't mean he won agains the bird seal. Neji wasn't from the main family, so it didn't matter what he said. But I don't think Hinata's sister Hanami had to have it, yet I don't remember it ever being talked about again after the first half of the mange. They've conveniently forgotten all about that bit of Hyuuga family cruelty as part of the legacy that Naruto married into.

Yeah so, did they ever even address the bird seal of the hyuuga clan? Or did it just conveniently go away? 
 
I know it's a nice fan-ficcy thing to attach to Hinata, but I don't ever remember her making a stand about it against her father and clan history. (If it was in the anime, then I didn't see it.) And just because Naruto beat up/won over Neji, doesn't mean he won agains the bird seal. Neji wasn't from the main family, so it didn't matter what he said. But I don't think Hinata's sister Hanami had to have it, yet I don't remember it ever being talked about again after the first half of the mange. They've conveniently forgotten all about that bit of Hyuuga family cruelty as part of the legacy that Naruto married into.

The resolution was later when Hiashi went begging to Neji. The reason its gets ignored is because its doesn’t matter to the central plot. It deserved a mention and quick explanation, because it was there and was a big deal for those characters. Do we even know who is the head anymore? A formal resolution did need happen, but then that is my recollection of Boruto in a nutshell. It just plain sucks when it comes to details. It left all sorts of gaps that made people look worse than intended. My personal favorite was the paperwork in the early going. Tell me what it is and maybe I can understand Naruto’s position, it doesn’t so I can’t. Saying “paperwork” just doesn’t cut it.

TBH, a true resolution of that situation could be its own story given how clans like that functioned and all the vested interests likely at play. That Hiashi or Hinata comes in and says no more seal is not likely just to be met with “okay” from the the rest of the main branch. I once had a fanfic idea based on that, but then that never got off the ground.

But then, I think thats what the sequel should have been. The what comes next (i.e. the early years of Naruto’s life as Hokage). Like the clan, being ninja was a way of life and the livelihood of many. That would required more effort and risk that I think Shonen Jump wanted to put into it.

P.S. Isn’t her name Hanabi?

So my theory is he made the decision at some point to end the story on NH, but never changed the manga to reflect that until the end. So he kept all the NS scenes, the love letter dude, Sakura and Minato's dialogue, both Naruto and Sakura saving each other...all that stuff. Then after "The True End," he started really moving towards NH. My guess is that the relationship stuff was going to end with Naruto and Sasuke's near deaths, only to have the rest of the plot be about the two of them fighting together, then fighting each other. Then being saved. And the epilogue would have been the surprise ending of Naruto with Sakura and Sasuke with Karin. (Not NH.)

Ive been reluctant to make a theory on this because there is no way anything can be proven. No on believe anything Kishimoto says and many of the theories presumed some sense of logic and cohension from an author many of us argue or have argued he doesnt possess. I think it could have come much earlier than most, but I dont know and at this point, dont really care. The rational for the ending matters less to me than the fact that he did it.

For what its worth, I do very much agree than he planned to end the manga much sooner than he did. This reason is also part of why Im not sure there is some grand theory behind what he did. Everything after Pain is very seat-of-your pants and there seems to be no plan other than Naruto v. Sasuke at the end. Maybe he really planned his titular character to become rudderless, reactionary, and to have no discernible purpose for several arcs, but I doubt it. So, I guess I do have some theory: he made it up as he went along with no serious plan other than they fight and I gotta set up a sequel.
 

Totally lost opportunity. Sasuke had his own team, his own love interest. These outsiders who were not quite bad but not quite good. It was the perfect fit. Instead, Sasuke's a loner and a deadbeat dad. It makes his time spent with Taka and bringing them back in the end just pointless.

I disagree. Sasuke even forming his own team made no sense given his motivations. Sasuke forming bonds and reforming via them would have made even less sense given his motivations and drive to complete them. What would Taka have driven him to do....they seemed to possess no independent motiviations or drive to do anything on their own. They just kinda followed him around. Karin chronicled his descent into darkness, but none of them brought anything out or new for his character. I guess they could be wondering hobos? But Sasuke could do that alone.

He also tried to murder one and abandoned the other two and they returned out of some sense of loyalty. I guess. I think Taka never should have been formed and everything surrounding them from a literary standpoint was a complete disaster. They suck and I wish they had never been introduced. And as awful as SS is...SK is the same problem on steroids.

Hey kids, let me tell about the time I left your mom to die on the forest floor.

In fact, their entire reconciliation pisses me off because it such bull crap. He abandoned them and they came back, virtually no questions asked. It wasnt even coincidental or out of revenge for what he did. They sought him out to rejoin and help him without a second thought. Isnt this kind of nonsense one of the core reasons Part 2 Sasuke blows so hard? That no matter what he does no one is willing to say F-you, Im outta here. Carving out a life with them doesnt seem functionally different than benign allowed back with open arms. Its the same basic problem: accountability is for chumps.

Him going on with them only makes sense semblance of sense if the manga decides that he was beyond redemption (as the manga saw it) and/or his crimes meant he could never return. We know from Obito that Naruto unlikely believes that anyone is beyond redemption no matter the crime. That was never going to happen because Naruto would have viewed it as a failure. Sasuke was going to be redeemed and he was going to return eventually.

Id have loved for Naruto to have been forced to actually confront he complexies of his path rather than just waiving him wand and redeeming them, but unless Kishimoto was willing to write or mixed ending (as opposed to the hero obtaining his goals) this would be impossible.

EDIT: As for the father thing, Naruto is unquestionably better for one simple reason: Hes there. My line of work puts in contact with families where Dad takes off or is spending years in prison. Ive definitely gotten the impression thatd they would prefer a poor dad to no dad at all. It would be different if he were abusive, but hes just a workaholic who isnt there enough. I think it beats the tar out of a dad who was AWOL for 12 years. Saradas crisis in gaiden doesnt occur if Sasuke even makes token efforts.

This gets skirted over because Sasuke seems to have a superior relationship with Sarada now that hes back and Boruto still has dad issues, but thats just what we see on paper. They could flap their arms and fly if the author wrote it. So, objectively speaking, I think Naruto is better.

I think is also a consequence of just the terrible portayal Naruto gets. Narutos issues with Boruto are unstandable and relatable....if portrayed well. Its not however, because we know so little about Narutos end of it other than he works and isnt there for reasons that seem really OOC for the guy we saw in the original series. Instead, they both come across as brats and kitten.