Me and Trang were talking about why this might be a while ago, and there's no clear answer, but what we came to see is this: women characters are judged differently than men characters. And that's a give, but it's how they're judged that stands out. Basically, if a female character is pretty and appealing with a nice calm attitude- fans are easily impressed with that character. But if a female character is spunkier and sometimes not so "visually" appealing- fans tend to judge that character harder. Now, sometimes these characters still gain a massive following, like Rukia or Morigana, but sometimes they become the fandom's number one hated girl- like Sakura, Chi Chi or Jericho. Then there's that mix- like Mikasa or Bulma, where half of the fandom worships her while the other half despises her.  

 

And that's why we have bullsh*t like "best girl" instead of "best character" because female characters are on a completely different spectrum from male characters. But this is usually only found in shounen fandoms, where women characters are screwed up anyway. And it doesn't apply to everything (One Piece). But it still exists.

Sincerely, I agree with you.

 

The fandom's constant need to anthropomorphize these characters into something to be loved, idolized, hated or blamed as if they were human is the reason that this story was turned to kitten. You can't reasonably lay blame on a fictional character because they don't exist to take the blame.

 

Bashing the authors take or characterization of a particular character is one thing, but actually bashing something that's not real is just a waste of time. Whenever you do the former rather than the latter then you're always making sure that the blame is being squarely laid where it should be, with the author.

 

The destruction of the Naruto manga is completely the fault of two parties. Kishimoto and his studio partners. And the fans who's constant call for attention to their favorite characters caused the story to take a sudden and horrendous turn so that said characters got their happy ending. That is the reason why the first 2/3 and the last 1/3 of this manga reads like it was written one way then retconned the rest of the way.

 

Just my take on it.

 

I wish I can like twenty times this post. It's completely spot-on.

It's because this I always try not to make character-bashing. These characters are fictional. I can or can not like a character, but bash them? Nope.

 

 

Somebody please explain this to me? How delusional are the Naruto SS fans to think that one panel with a forehead tap, was enough to vote them the most best anime couple. 

... What? Best anime couple? For that single scene?

Wow. Some people has LOW standards.

 

Sadly, this sort of opinion depends on your fandom.

 

 

I always keep thinking.. If we had won the pairing wars and NaruSaku was canon. We will be the ones enjoying all this pairing stuff that has been coming out since the manga ended. The Naruhina fans are the luckiest fandom.

 

If NS was canon, we will be in the same position NH is right now. SS is the only sh*tty pairing. The fact that there is still drama after 12 kittening years says something about it. I know things will ultimately work out for the Uchiha family but I have to ask all the SasuSaku fans....

 

Was it worth it?  

 

I am glad Kishimoto did not make SS into the type of pairing all the SS fangirls assumed it would be. 

If my favorite couple becomes canon in an awful way I guess that I would take it anyway, but I would naively like thinking that I would be able to openly criticize the terrible execution.

Anyway I have not been following this Gaiden crap, but from what you are talking, it sounds real, real bad. And SS looks as pathetic and pernicious as always.

You know, it is sad telling this...

... because one year ago I MIGHT have cared about this. Kakashi was one of my favorite characters.

Now? My only reaction is a "Meh. So what?" And maaaaaaybe a shrug.

It shows how indifferent I have become regarding Naruto nowadays.

 

 

If you ask me, tsundere is a Shounen thing

Actually, shojo manga used the trope earlier than shonen manga. Rose of Versailles got published in 1971 (one year before Mazinger-Z introduced the first tsundere main character). And there are older shojo manga with tsundereish female characters.

Given that Sailor Mercury is more popular than Sailor Mars, Rei Ayanami is more popular than Asuka Langley Sohryu (my favorite character of that series), or than Hinata is more popular than Sakura... Tsundere used to be popular in the past, but I have the feeling that now the submissive, quiet, obliging girl trope is more popular among obsessed fanboys (otaku does not merely mean "people who has a hobby". It means "obsessed fanboy") who hate real women because they have their own minds and have no relationships because they are frightened of real people.

 

 

i think otaku only love boobies, and booties LOL...they're brainless shallow idiots

Yes. Honestly, when I see people hating on some tsundere characters and I listen to their arguments... I have the feeling that their "I hate her because she is an abusive, psychotic b*tch" arguments are nothing but a coverup for the real reason: "I hate her because she is a real person who gets angry and disagrees with the male character and has foul moods, and she will not support him if she thinks he is being stupid or doing something dumb".

Maybe I am being unfair, but then I find their "Character A is an evil, abusive, psychotic b*tch and a bully with no redeeming traits whatsoever and I would never date her; Character B is warm nice, kind, considerate, understanding and I'd love tap that butt" rants, I realize neither Character A -the tsundere- is so bad nor Character B -the quiet, submissive girl- is so good, and they are hating a character for things she never did and loving another character for things she has not done yet...

... and I tell myself that I am understating things.

Nah, they must think that all women are submissive, quiet, helpless girls whose only life goal is becoming a man's couple. It is well known that otaku hate tsundere and strong-willed women.

Honestly, there are "people" that does not understand that there IS a difference between anime and real life, between national stereotypes created by outsiders and reality, and between otaku population and average people:

http://en.rocketnews...ormal-behavior/

This is pathetic and disgusting. Did they seriously think that the stinking garbage churned out constantly by the porn and hentai industries reflects the real Japan? Did they truly think that they could give free reign to their misoginy and perversion and molest people... and it would be tolerated?

Ironically, Japanese and Chinese people are agreeing on something for once.

 

 

I don't watch Pokemon anymore but my OTP will always be AshxMisty. XD I'm kind of annoyed by this slew of harem girls Ash is getting. You may say I live in the past but Ash and Misty is just classic. I also miss Brock... *sigh* The good old Pokemon days. 

Amen, brother.

I am not saying that all old episodes are good and all new episodes are bad, but...

I watched the Indigo League season till the end. Then I watched the Orange League episodes and I started to get bored. There barely was some character or episode that stood out to me, and that League seemed very wishy-washy to me (IIRC, the Gym leaders tested Ash with ridiculous trials instead of challenging to a proper battle). Then the Johto season began... and I watched a few episodes but they felt very dull. I realized that I had stopped caring for Pokemon, so I stopped watching.

I know, I know. It is a status-quo-is-immovable, Monster-of-the-week kid's show. It is bound to get repetitive after a while. You never were a member of the public that it is done for (I was in my late teens when she show started out). If you do not like, do not demand that it changes to serve you. Stop watching it and let other kids enjoy their cartoon made for them.

So that that is what I did. I found that it became boring and I stopped watching.

Nonetheless my nephew watches some episodes every so often and I see no reason to care again. I do not care for Ash's new partners. I do not care for Ash's newest girl who follows him around and will be replaced the next season. I do not care for Ash's newest Pokemon that he will ditch as soon as Nintendo makes the next Pokemon game. I do not care for the new secondary characters and the new villains.

In my headcanon, the Indigo League season got a very different development and ending (more akin to the Red/Blue/Yellow games) and the series stopped shortly after.

And this fanfic is a possible -dark- alternate future: Pokemon Master

On topic... I have several OTPs (KoujixSayaka, AsukaxShinji, RanmaxAkane, RyoxKaori...) but NS has not stopped being one of them. Reading Marvel and DC comic-books has taught me bitterly to disregard preposterous, character-damaging retcons.

 

 

I've seen most of the series, bubblegum crisis 2040. And I enjoyed it fairly well.

I believe it is on www.watchcartoononline.com if anyone watchs to check it out before buying/delving deep into it 

Glad of meeting another fan! May I ask what your favorite moment was?

I also enjoyed it. Then again, I like a good sci-fi history.

Maybe I am wrong, but I have the feeling of the number of sci-fi series in manga and anime has been declining for a long time. I wonder why...

 Of course I have watched Project A-ko!   It was the late nineties and I was still in high-school when I purchased the tape. I had previously read an article about it and watched a trailer featuring the scene where A-ko used missiles and war planes as stepping stones to reach the alien mothership and I told myself "Man, this series HAS to be crazy".

I hope that you like Bubblegum Crisis if you give it a shot. And trust me, Priss is tough like nails. She would have NEVER taken Sasuke's garbage, not even for one second.

You knows, it is funny. Often anime fans criticize the women's rol in yesteryear anime, simultaneously presuming that modern shows has no that trouble (even though they DO), but... when I think about it, anime in the Eighties and Nineties (and to a lesser extent in the Seventies. In that decade anime had its first tsundere leads, and the -possibly- first black woman who was a co-protagonist and a love interest: Jun Honoo) were packed with strong-willed and competent female characters. Of course, there also were female characters that were useless or a load during a fight or a damsel in distress... but that also happens now.

And definitely I do not remember any female character from those decades that got so butchered by her creators like Sakura did (although Asuka Langley Sohryu comes near. And after watching several shows of the creator of Gundam -Yoshiyuki Tomino- I am convinced that Tomino knows nothing about women).

Nah. My opinion on SK evolved like this:

- Sasuke vs Itachi arc: Comedic relief and surely that is all what it will be.

- Sasuke vs Bee fight: Maybe they will become a couple. I do not care anyway. Although maybe it is not so bad...

- Kage Summit arc: SK is dead now, and therefore SS. I can not take seriously any of those couples after this. Sasuke will end up alone even if he gets redeemed because he is obviously too crazy to be in a relationship with.

- Karin appearances during Fourth War arc: Huh? Woman, and here I was thinking what you had grown a modicum of self-esteem... Your actions and words now make no sense given your words and actions earlier! I guess that it is possible they get together eventually, but I do not support it.

- The end of manga: ... What was all of this for? What the purpose of Team Taka and Karin was? Why did Kishimoto waste so much panel time with them? They were SO pointless that they vanished during the Finale and nobody ever mentioned them! Team Not Seven, indeed.

So what if it is old? If something is good, it is good, regardless when it was done. If you do not want to try something on grounds of it being old, then I sincerely think that you are mssing out.

You have just said that you like Evangelion. Well, Evangelion it is twenty-years-old now. It is older than the younger members of this board. If someone told you "I have never watched Evangelion. It seems old" you would not answer "It is great, not matter when it was done. If you do not watch it because it is too old then you are missing a good show that you would possibly like"?

Bubblegum Crisis is a classic, right like the shows that you cited.

Anyway, a lot of sequels and spin-offs were released after the first series. The last of them was done in 2003, so...

Of course, if you do not like the genre (although you have told yourself that you like SOME series of the genre) it is a strike against it. However let me correct you about something: it is a mecha show, but not a HUMONGOUS mecha show. You will not find something bigger than sci-fi bikes and cyber-suits. And although it is an action show it is very focused on drama and relationships between characters.

(And the lead characters are ALL strong women. That is something that it has over Naruto  ).

I do not see how or why my age is relevant, but I am thirty-four. Back in the 00's I hardly found series that appealed me so I started to check classic series that I had never read/watched earlier (so that nostalgia is NOT a factor), including shows that were older than me. I found rubbish series, of course, but I also found many manga and anime series that I absolutely loved. If I had told myself "It is old so it must be bad/inferior/a waste of my time", I would have never read/watched them.

It is because that I said that people is missing out if they disregard a series on grounds of it being "old". I am speaking from experience.

What are the most tear-jerking moments of all manga or anime that you have read or watched (the ending of Naruto does not count. It was sad for ALL wrong reasons)?

This scene of "Lone Wolf and Cub" is one of the saddest and most touching ones that I remember. It gets me EVERY TIME:

I also shed a tear whenever I read this (from Maison Ikkoku) even if it is happier:

Or when in the "Mazinger-Z versus Great General of Darkness" Kouji cried the night before the last battle, saying that he knew that he could not win and that he would die but he would fight not matter what.

Or that scene of Fist of the North Star where Kenshiro mutters that he lives in a world where children get murdered by a sip of water (although that manga -even if it is renowned by its bloody action- is chockfull with sad moments. Another of them was when Rei said that he did not care for dying if he could guarantee that his unrequited love was able to live freely and happily, even if it was only for a short while).

Or when in Evangelion Asuka was lying naked on a tube after slitting her wrists, remembering her mother's dead and thiking that she had no reason for living because she was nothing but a failure.

Or the death of Heinel in Voltes-V. He was betrayed by the emperor that he loyally served, his subordinates are killed, his lover is dead, he decides that he is going down fighting but he finds out that he was pitted against his father and brothers, and finally dies by burning.

These are some of the moments that got me impressed the most and stuck to my memory. I wonder what are other people's.

 

The rip off ones.

 

Naruto shadow clone was clearly a rip off of Tien's multiform. TFS made fun of that.

 

Naruto's rasengan...is clearly a dumb version of Bardock's spirit cannon

 

Naruto's Fuuton Rasenshuriken is a dumb version of Krillin's kienzan

 

The Chidori is a dumb down version of Makan Sala la pakan

Shadow clones were not a Tien's attack ripp-off. Ninjas were capable to do that according legends, stories and folklore -needless to say, ninjas gleefully helped to spread them, even if they did not create them-.

Most of that list does not sound like "Kishimoto ripped off Toriyama". they sound more like "Kishimoto and Toriyama had the same influences and used the same sources".

Let's remember that even if Dragon Ball was HUGELY influential, it did not create most -or any- of tropes that people associates with it (such like calling your attacks. Toriyama actually parodied the trope).

You know, this reminds me of someone claiming that the scene where Iruka shielded Naruto from Mizuki's shuriken was a rip-off from a supposedly similar scene of a Mega Man anime. I was tempted to tell that person that if he/she is going to pretend that Kishimoto plagiarized Mega Man, then Mega Man plagiarized Astroboy and Casshern/Casshan (Mega Man's actual influences).

On topic... I have no idea. I think that I had stopped caring for power-ups for a long, long time, so I do not remember which of them annoyed me particularly.

Well, you can stay if you want (and it is nice seeing another Asuka fan). Maybe you find something you like.

For example, check these songs:

Kodoku no Angel

Mr. Dandy

Soldier of Roses

Mad Machine

Say Yes!

Edit: Several days ago I and a friend of mine were talking about this series. He told me that he showed it to his girlfriend... and even though she is not an anime fan, she loved it! She was younger than him and had never heard of it, so people who is younger and are not nostalgic towards this show or that era may also like it.

Pokemon-wise I only ship Ash and Misty. It was my first ship back when I still cared about the anime, and Ash will never get together with other girl canonically, so why bothering myself with another ship?

I also liked Ichigo/Rukia back when I read Bleach.

Not that it should stop some people of shipping couples in OP, but I think that Oda said that the Strawhats (that is what they are called, right?) are just friends? If so, it was nice that he was clear about it.

Focusing myself on anime pairings and on my absolute favourites...

- Kouji and Sayaka (Mazinger-Z)

- Kyosuke and Madoka (Kimagure Orange Road)

- Shinji and Asuka (Evangelion)

- Ranma and Akane (Ranma 1/2)

- Ryo and Kaori (City Hunter)

- Mark/Ken and Princess/Jun (Battle of the Planets/Gatchaman)

And like a bonus, a non-anime pairing:

- Beren and Luthien (The Silmarillion)

"But why Naruto does not use Kage Bunshin? So he can rule the village and spend time with his son"

"Because the writer/editor has deemed that Bolt must be/feel neglected in order to create drama that drives the history, and if he uses the logical, available in-story option, then there would be no drama"

"Oh. And why then he does not think of a best way to create drama instead of false dramatic tension?"

"Bad writing."

"Oh, right."

Seriously. I am SO sick of idiot plots (like Roger Erbert called them) where the plot is driven by false dramatic tension and where the story and inter-personal drama depends on the characters being unable to add two plus two, share a bit of information that they have no reason to hide, open up and talk about their feelings clearly or ponder about the facts and drawing a reasonable conclusion (that was one of the biggest troubles of Evangelion. The WHOLE inter-personal drama depended on the characters being unable to burst their bubbles or coming to the wrong/worst possible conclusion ALWAYS: "I want to kiss him but I do not want that he thinks that I am interested in him even though I AM and maybe he would want to become my boyfriend if he was aware of it" "She want to kiss me? She must hate me!". God, I got SO fed up with it).

It hit me when I read Michael Strogoff by Jules Verne. The main character has to traverse a land overriden with enemies, hiding his true identity. In a scene his mother meets him and recognizes him, but he has no option that pretending to be other person and refusing to recognize her. His mother start to get angsty, but then she puts two and two together (the country is being invaded; her son is Imperial courier; and he is going through conquered territory pretending being another person) and realizes his son must have a very good reason for this.

I was shocked because I half-expected that she spent several chapters grieving and sobbing, wondering why her son had done something like that or believing that he hated her, rather coming to a logical conclusion quickly, which led to advance the plot and introduce a more interesting and truer dramatic element. Then I realized that I had got SO used to find idiot plots and false dramatic tension in manga, anime and comic-books that I expected that they showed up and drove the plot.

 

 

honestly... why should I stop posting if I dont force three of my friends to come to this site?

When I read the opening post I initially thought that he meant "posting in this thread". After reading it a second time, I got it.

I am sorry, Ace, but that rule makes no sense and try to enforce it WOULD actually kill the site. Not every member has three friends interested in Naruto. And even if that person has three friends that are Naruto fans, they may not be interested in online boards. And even if they are willing to become members, they may refuse post if they are forced to post regularly -instead of whevener they want- and bring more friends that must become regular posters, TOO.

I have only a friend that is a Naruto fan (and he is favorable to NS). He has a terrible opinion of Naruto boards and has absolutely no interest in them. And I can assure you that if you tell him that he HAS to post regularly he will refuse becoming a member.

Moreover, I guess that many members of this board would stop coming altogether if they were said that they are forced to post constantly and bring more members that will do so as well. Sometimes people does not feel like visiting the board or writing or wanting to contribute to a discussion. If you force them they may stop coming in disgust. You have to give them a degree of freedom in order to make the site appealing.

There are ways to try to enliven a forum, but your proposal is not one of them.

Just be patient. Sooner or later activity will go up.

I guess that that explains why female characters that are -or are perceived by fandom like being- mild-mannered, quiet, submissive and shy tend to be so popular (Sailor Mercury, Rei Ayanami, Hinata Hyuga...).

 

 

The single female in her mid twenties is nearly always portrayed a a desperate single woman who is shown as too needy, worried about getting pass her sell by date, and you nearly always see them as getting drunk all the time, this is pretty much the norm for single twenty something females, they are in their workclothes, they come home, strip to their vests and shorts and grab the beer from the fridge, and spend the rest of the day getting buzzed, and when you do see them getting in a relationship, it's with someone who has either broken up with them multiple times, or has cheated on them. It's almost like, if you are Twenty and not found your true love you are destined to be old and lonely and drunk for the rest of your life.

This reminds me of Maison Ikkoku. The female lead was a woman in her twenties, manager of a boarding house and a widow (and a tsundere, but that is another matter). A bunch of characters (including the tenants, her neighbours, her parents, her in-laws...) pestered her about getting married again, claiming that she would become an old hag if she did not wed someone soon. However the main character -who was in love with her- sometimes told them: "Has some of you ever CONSIDERED what Kyoko wants?"

This manga was written by a woman in the early eighties. How you can see, things have not changed.

 

Now that I read this article, and looked at the two charts, I can only come to the conclusion that the anime industry portrayal of men and women in what they show is damaging. An hourglass body, with a cute face, and large breasts seem to have become a norm for women, even when the percentage of most Japanese women are not like that. A cute face with big shiny eyes, and skinny but strong as well...pffft yeah right.

 

Hayao Miyazaki was right, the anime industry as it is right now, is not only damaging itself, but the country they live in.

 

If they want to increase population growth, then a suggestion is to loosen up immigration laws, ban abortions, and put tighter laws on what the anime industry is allowed to show to young teenagers who are just coming into maturity.

I quite agree. Add to that portrayal "quiet, submissive, agreeable and always supportive" and you realize why young otaku are so afraid of women: they want that kind of women, and regard other kind of characters (mainly tsunderes) like crazy b*****s (despite of being more realistic). But since the former group do not exist in real life and they are afraid of real women (you know... those psychotic tsundere b*****s that dare to get angry and talk their minds rather pampering and servicing men), they avoid them, preffering her Rei Ayanami perfect fantasies to a blood-and-flesh, real person.

I am sorry for your leaving. I liked to read your posts.

Good bye and good luck in the future. I can not talk for our mods, but I am sure that If some day you want to return, our door will be open and the "welcome" doormat greeting you on the threshold.

Let's see... My provisional list is:

* Anime and Manga:

- Kouji/Sayaka (Mazinger-Z/Tranzor-Z)

- Tetsuya/Jun (Great Mazinger)

- Duke/Hikaru (Grendizer)

- Kyosuke/Madoka (Kimagure Orange Road)

- Mark/Princess (Gatchaman/Battle of the Planets)

- Susumu/Yuki (Space Battleship Yamato/Star Blazers)

- AsukaxShinji (Evangelion)

- Hikaru/Misa (Macross/Robotech)

- Camille/Fa (Gundam Zeta)

- Ranma/Akane (Ranma 1/2)

- Lina/Gourry (Slayers)

- Kyoko/Godai (Maison Ikkoku)

- Ryo/Kaori (City Hunter)

- Naruto/Sakura

- Ichigo/Rukia (Bleach)

* Comic-Books:

- Peter/MJ (Spider-Man)

- Scott/Jean (X-Men) (Betsy/Warren y Alex/Lorna from that series too)

- Clark/Lois (Superman)

* Books:

- Aragorn/Arwen (Lord of the Rings)

- Beren/Luthien (The Silmarillion, the story that happens before the events of Lord of the Rings)

- Harry/Hermione (Harry Potter)

* Games:

- Mario/Peach

- Link/Zelda

- Diddy/Dixie (Donkey Kong)

- Ness/Paula (Earthbound)

- Rosa/Cecil (FFIV)

- Celes/Locke (FFVI... although I am partial to Terra/Celes...)

- Cloud/Tifa (FFVII)

- Chrono/Marle (Chrono Trigger)

- Marth/Caeda (Fire Emblem)

And I KNOW that I have forgotten some...

Personally I have not posted in weeks because I went on vacation and I had no connection (and let me tell you, being away internet for a while feels great. When I have my computer available, the temptation of visiting a site is strong, and you inadvertently wasted dozens of hours scrolling down the same pages. With no internet I spent more time with my mother, went for walks, read books and manga, watched anime and played games that I had not tried before, and even made a little of gardening), so I could not lurk or post.

Anyway, I usually go through a cycle: I am wondering how my fandom is doing, check the site and write several posts. Then I start to get upset again and I need to take a break. I get myself distracted with other hobbies or series or other of my favorite ships (I have been reading AsukaxShinji fics of late). Then I wonder how H&E is doing and the the cycle starts anew.

And that is exactly what I did before the end of Naruto. That is exactly what I did when I was utterly convinced that N/S was canon.

I left for weeks or even months and then I returned all of sudden.

Other people has already said this, but activity in this site goes in cycles. We are going through a slow -and hard- time, that is all.

Naruto fandom will eventually die, of course, and only a bunch of old-timers and younger fans will be left talking about the same stuff in some few boards and posting infrequently (and most of their posts will be character-bashing). However I have seen dead fandoms (check fandoms of manga/anime series that were wildly popular back in the nineties: Ranma, Evangelion, Tenchi Muyo...), and believe me, this fandom is NOWHERE near from that state yet.

Meanwhile I still am active, even If I am more active in the Otaku section. I still have new things to talk about. For example, every so often I will start a thread about other manga series, hoping that maybe some people will find something new to like.

Has someone heard talking of this anime over here? It used to be very popular in American fandom.

What does it offer? Blade Runner-style sci-fi. Beautiful, strong-willed and self-reliant female protagonists. Cool mecha. Frenetic, beautifully animated action sequences. Heavy drama. And AWESOME music!

Seriously, check this: There's A Hurricane Tonight

"Okay, but what it is about -other than a sci-fi anime influenced by Blade Runner-?"

From TVTropes (because I think that the article is clearer that in Wikipedia):

In the early 2030s, the world economy (and some of its politics) is controlled by the megacorporation GENOM, whose primary product is the boomer — humanoid robots that can be manufactured for any purpose from cheap labor to prostitution to heavy combat. Opposing GENOM and its plots are the Knight Sabers — four women in astoundingly advanced powered combat suits, led by Sylia Stingray, the daughter of the scientist who invented boomer technology and who was murdered by GENOM's agents when they stole it.

I think that it is awesome (and I love Priss Asagiri -the main character-. She is great). I recommend giving it a chance. Moreover, the first series is eight-episodes-long, so you will not have to go through dozens of chapters to find out whether you like or not.