Former Captain

I didn't say he pulled one, I said he started to pull one By this I mean that if the Kyuubi had taken over (as it was very, very close to doing), then Naruto's mind really wouldn't matter anymore, and for all intents and purposes he would be more powerful but a completely different person - putting him in a similar position to Sasuke, who has certainly gained the power he sought but at a heavy price (the person he was or, depending on how you view it, could have been).



Of course. His succumbing was as an answer to seeing her die, not because she told him she loved him, but because she was a friend. Not to mention that he appreciates her growth from pre-Exams to afterward and as such was enraged to see someone, who'd been like him, go down. But not to her feelings, this is true.



I probably should have said "given in". Shadow Wolf has a really excellent explanation about willpower in the post before yours that corrected me (thanks, SW).



Yes, he does. My point was that while he wants to save Sasuke, his belief that he will die with Sasuke runs against his core dream, and if he doesn't resolve this then he's a) going to become Hokage with Sasuke dead and by his admission feel unworthy, or b) he and Sasuke will die together, so he may be beloved and revered by the village but won't see his dream (and his parents', and Tsunade's brother's and lover's) fulfilled.

Knowing Kishi and the style of this story, Naruto will solve the problem, but I prefer to keep myself in suspense



It doesn't, and I agree. (NH perspective: it doesn't mean the pairing is dead, either, and the counter here would include something about how Hinata was among the first to give him those things when everyone still thought he was a fool...well, only a fool, that is.)



Naruto shares his Ninja Way with Hinata, because she admired it and took it as her own. That's what I was referring to. The fact that Naruto hates people who lie to themselves is a reflection of his Ninja Way -- "he'll never go back on his word" is easily comparable to not lying, not making false promises...basically being open, honest, forthright, they're all aspects of his Ninja Way. I didn't intend to imply that Naruto shares that exact trait with Hinata. Sorry if that's what you took.



As someone else stated and I also brought up, that particularly point was a stretch. I brought it up because it is readable from the panel - not the best by a very long shot, but not impossible.

NH as a canon couple does not exist. NH as a potential canon couple will die, so to speak, when Kishi says it does, which I anticipate being relatively soon despite the rather odd focus on Hinata recently (not focus, exactly, but panel-time). NH as a ship will never die. That's the way fandom works.



Agreed.

Ironically, both are shipping weapons. *mind blown*

I think it's as Fyuria and Dragunov said: only at that point in time and (given the nature of the Kyuubi's chakra - all hatin' and stuff) mostly just negative emotions. And because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, just because she's not swooning at that exact moment doesn't mean she doesn't have those feelings for him, so I don't think he could be rejected in that manner.

Yes, it is. There's a reason I don't think NaruHina could become canon (assuming good writing) with any less than five to seven years of clear manga development, as I said in a post less than 36 hours ago. I suspect you didn't see that post of mine, recent as it was. Page 440, I think. This wouldn't be a problem for NaruHina if NaruSaku didn't exist - but it does, and it's been growing (with its ups and downs, as Namaenash said. Although there aren't many downs once we hit Part 2, which is when the series' romance starts to take off - I'd say even the Confession was both rather than just negative).



*sigh* Perhaps I should introduce myself, if you're going to assail me instead of my argument.

I am a major NaruSaku fan, probably since the beginning of Part 2 but I didn't keep track. I don't consider myself a "shipper" because while shipping itself is fine, I am absolutely disgusted by shipping wars due to experiences in other fandoms, and I inevitably get sucked into the most heated of debates (I just <3 a good argument). I chose to argue what I believed a NaruHina argument might be because a NaruHina shipper here felt outnumbered and because, frankly, there aren't many ways to debate at this point without throwing in completely different perspectives. (I'm willing to debate as a fan of any ship except SasuSaku. Can't stand it.)

You said that his telling Gaara pretty much confirms it. I'm a firm believer that if one piece of evidence is enough to make a point, use six pieces. Make it impossible to defeat. Make it unquestionable canon. Let me prove to you that I haven't missed your point by adding a couple to your counter:
- In the early 500s chapters, he told Kushina that he will be Hokage. You can add to this the fact this his Ninja Way is to stick to his word, but really it's more than enough that he's telling his mother, whom I'll claim he loves more than anyone else in the show, that he will fulfill her and Minato's dreams. Thus, one of the most meaningful things he's ever going to say. Using this as an example has the added benefit of drawing the Kushina/Minato <--> Sakura/Naruto parallel, from the growing respect on her side/initial attraction on his to their Tsundere relationship.
- "If my arms get ripped off, I'll just kick him to death! If my legs get ripped off, I'll just bite him to death! If my head gets ripped off, I'll just stare him to death!": not related to Hokage, necessarily, but enough said.
- Probably ~half the times we've seen Iruka's thoughts, and more recently when we saw the Kyuubi's.
- Search for Tsunade, Chuunin Exams, his reaction upon learning that Gaara was Kazekage...
- The list goes on.

Even with that, consider for a moment. Naruto's great dream is to become Hokage (initially for acknowledgement, now primarily to protect). He cannot become Hokage if he is dead first. He won't feel worthy of Hokage if he can't save his friend Sasuke, which requires mutual understanding via their fists...and the next they fight, Naruto thinks, they're both going to die. It doesn't mean he's given up though I'm quite interested in seeing reactions to that spin, but it presents an interesting conundrum. Naruto is going to have to solve this if he ever wants to be at peace with himself.

I'm straying from topic. Sakura also has her own resolution to make. She needs to resolve her feelings toward both boys, but particularly Sasuke (which is why it'd be nice to see the bench scene brought back). I think she knows she's close to Naruto. Right now, it's not enough, because Sasuke's there.




No, I don't disagree with the NaruSaku bits, but there's one part I disagree with.

His "never give up" attitude doesn't change, conveniently or inconveniently. Nonetheless, there's a very noticeable difference between letting his words do the talking and his actions. And this isn't my sentiment, it's the Kyuubi's. How does this relate to being captured by Deva Pain? It's the difference between cursing him out...and going 6-Tails, which itself is the "culmination of all his negative emotions"...and returning to form after Minato appears. There's not giving up no matter what the cost, and then there's not giving up no matter what I have to do, no matter what stands in my way, but I'll still be me. He gave up. Hinata jumped in and aided him, but it wasn't enough. He gave in to the Kyuubi. Gave in to feeling like he was defeated, like he had to surrender himself to evil to win. Then Minato boosted him back to his normal self.

So, yes, he can "give up" if driven to the brink - because the entire comparison to Sasuke revolves around relying on one's own will, power, and comrades versus doing whatever one can to attain greater strength at any cost. And in this scene, he started to pull a Sasuke, whether he wanted to or not.

He needs others to reach his full potential (his signature jutsu, Kage Bunshin, is pretty strong evidence of that). He provides the fuel, their presences provide the spark. Sakura has done this plenty - but Hinata hasn't exactly been idle, either. Hardly definitive proof, but hardly to be ignored either.

3. Naruto has set himself up for a showdown with Sasuke.
A personal, one on one, winner take all showdown in which he intends to die with his friend. The only people who can even come close to affecting him at that stage will be his fellow Team 7 members, Sakura and Kakashi. Until then, yes, we've got people like Gaara, Tsunade, Killer Bee, among others who could influence his path...but when Sasuke comes knocking down Konoha's walls, the only people who will mean anything to their duel are Sakura and Kakashi.

However, as I've stated I'll argue for NaruHina too, here goes:

1. Naruto's never giving up personality.
I'll admit that certain plot devices will get old after repeated use (not that it's stopped writers before), but we've seen a relatively recent occurrence in which Naruto had, for all intents and purposes, given up. His fighting spirit remained, but if he wasn't drowning in helplessness then I'm a cactus (btw, I'm not). Hinata came in to save him then. In his current War arc, yes, Naruto is set in his purpose to win the battle. But Naruto has given up on something. To some extent...he's resigned himself to his duel with Sasuke. He will not be slain, but he refuses to kill him. If one dies, they die. Is he willing to give up Konoha, his comrades, his friends, his dream of Hokage, to die with his brother? Will dying with him save him from his path, and will killing Sasuke prove that he is unfit to become Hokage? If he doesn't think he can be Hokage if he can't save this friend, and if he believes both will die in the attempt which doesn't seem like saving to me, does he think he can be Hokage? Perhaps he needs to be reminded of his dream, in a way that will remind him not to be content with dying. (And all NH perspective aside, we've already seen that Sakura - and Kakashi for that matter - will not deter him from his path leading to Sasuke)

Naruto is strong inside as well as out, but he is not unshakeable and neither is his spirit. He has grown so strong because he began with loneliness and then built on it with the support, respect, and love of others. It's not unreasonable that he require that support again from those who love him - which includes, and not low on the list, Hinata.

2. He hates people who lie to themselves.
So he says, and so his actions indicate. It's a reflection of his Ninja Way, a code he incidentally shares with Hinata. It's worth remembering that he said this point to Sakura - and though it's debatable what she was lying about, we know for sure that she is far too confused and unresolved toward the world (and Sasuke, and Naruto) to be declaring love. No matter what she means and what she's truthful about, she's leading him astray with her words...deception, the antithesis of his Ninja Way. If he hates those who lie to themselves, it would conflict rather sharply with the love he has (or had? Or has temporarily pushed aside for important battles?) for Sakura. Hinata has proven genuine in her thoughts and words.

This point hinges on Naruto still loving Sakura, which until the next panel development can conceivably be considered up in the air due to Sakura's fumbling her Confession and Naruto's response.

3. Naruto has set himself up for a showdown with Sasuke.
...Not as much for this one. Hinata would need to be closely involved in most of the future chapters. I can see Neji serving as a medium between Team 7 drama and Hinata, given that he recognizes Sasuke's path. Hinata's supported Naruto when he sorely needed it, and she would do so again. This one's not for me, I can't argue with myself.

Made for this thread:

Naruto: "You sure have a large charming forehead. Makes me want to kiss it."

Sakura: O_O (Inner Sakura: )

Naruto: "Heh...that sounds like something Naruto would say."


A goody:

"Thank you, Naruto...thank you so much, for everything. Thanks to you...I still haven't given up on my dream of Team 7 laughing together again."


And, of course:

"You're so reckless, you idiot!"

Followed by the tenderest she's ever been with the guy.