28 replies to this topic

[ciardha]

For any kind of fiction writing but works well for writing fanfic too.

Bechdel's test:
Is there more than one female character? Do they ever talk to each other? Are they friendly with each other? Do they ever talk about anything other than a male partner or love interest?

And this:
Does your story contain only one prominent female character? If so, please check the reasons that you included that character and made her female:

1. So she can be raped.

2. So she can be killed.

3. To give the male protagonist someone to protect.

4. To give the male protagonist someone to avenge.

5. To give the male protagonist someone to come back to at the end.

6. To give the male protagonist someone to be comforted by.

7. To give the male protagonist someone to complain to about how hard his life is, and then have sex with.

8. To give the male protagonist a prize to be won.

9. Other.

If you checked "Other," then please continue with your submission. If you checked any of the other boxes, then please go submit your story somewhere else, 'cause we don't want it.

*******************************************************************
Glad to say Kishimoto passes both tests:

On Bechdel's test: Sakura to Tsunade, Tsunade to Shizune, Sakura to Chiyo, Sakura to Temari, and to a degree Ino and Sakura (although he falls into the cliche in part 1 and has them stupidly being rivals over Sasuke. But as they are only 12-13 in part 1 I can give it a bit of a pass, especially as in part 2 it looks like both have pretty much outgrown that behavior- especially Sakura.) and although not shown he's referenced that Kurenai and Anko are friends (he really needs to show a scene with them together. We haven't seen Anko at all in part 2, and that bugs me.) Also there's, in a recent chapter a bit that touches on Sakura being friends with Shizune. (I would like to see a scene with Sakura, Shizune and Tsunade working together and talking to each other...)


On the second test- several prominant female characters, and they aren't just there to fit one of those checklist points



There's a fair amount of even narusaku fanfic that fails one or both of these tests though. It'd be nice if there was a lot less that failed those tests. I really try to watch that I don't fail those tests in my fanfics.

[Illjwamh]

Writing a female character is easy. Think of a man, and then take away reason and accountability.

^{*For those of you with absolutely no sense of humor or pop-culture knowledge, go watch the Jack Nicholson movie As Good As It Gets.}

[ciardha]

Writing a male character is easy. Think of a woman, and then take away reason and accountability.

Fixed

Edited by ciardha, 24 August 2008 - 06:44 AM.

[jim1982]

Nah there are plenty of reason and accountability in both genders, one just needs to look underneath the underneath lol

[catsi563]

=O_o= well I know mine pass the test. I have a strong Sakura in all my fics, and a strong Ino in a couple as well.

Only ones Id really argue slightly are 3 and 5. both 3 and 5 are core points for the Naruto Character.

in 3 Sakura is someone very special for him to protect. and while she has grown very strong and well as a character on ehr own. She is still a very special person for Naruto and someone he protects dilligently.

in 5 Sakura is a prime reason he never fails. He allways pushes himself to the breaking point and beyond so he can come home to her.

Now while I agree that these should not be the main reason to have a lady in your fiction. they are compelling reasons for her to be there as well. IN a story like Naruto whos main protagonist is motivated by a desire for protection and love. What good is it too not have a person (Sakura) whom he can project those attributes upon?

Obviously she msut be made to interact on her own with peers her own level (Ino) or teachers or superiors (Tsunade) and of course she should grow and be able to handle herself, but the underlying point is that she is still a primary reason for Naruto to Suuceed like he does, and is a precious eprson upon whom he places the utmost devotion and desire to protect.

I dont think this weakens her character in the slightest and in fact adds a level of depth to the story because of it.

[Illjwamh]

in 3 Sakura is someone very special for him to protect. and while she has grown very strong and well as a character on ehr own. She is still a very special person for Naruto and someone he protects dilligently.

This is negated because Naruto is the same for her.


Also, the point was those shouldn't be the sole reason for including a female character. Those things still do happen, but the idea is they shouldn't be the only things that happen.

[catsi563]

I dont think that negates it in the slighest. in fact that only enhances the point. Again It is a source of strength for both characters. But mainly for Naruto. It took most of chapter 1 for Sakura to come to care about him in that fashion.

And if youd read a little further you'd see that I agree it isnt and shouldnt be the sole reason for the inclusion. I merely state the belief that it is a perfectly valid reason and a somewhat compelling one to have the character in the story. But to have her in there for that sole purpose is wrong. She needs to grow and be strong on her own rather then a piece of cotton candy wall fluff.

Edited by catsi563, 24 August 2008 - 05:35 PM.

[No WhereMan]

You forgot another point too.

10. The female is present to have sex with the main male character or possibly other female characters.


I can't tell you how many times i see that.

[Nate River]

You forgot another point too.

10. The female is present to have sex with the main male character or possibly other female characters.


I can't tell you how many times i see that.

That's the premise for 99% of lemons. I mean, it's literary porn.

[Dkey]

This test seems to be a little intollerant.


And if you fail this test is it impossible to create a good female character?

[True]

Hmm I can understand the first test, but whats the deal with the second test? Why does a female character have to be centered around a male character? Can't she stand on her own and have her own defining characteristics that don't deal with a male counterpart? And what kind of fics are we talking about here? Writing a female character depends on the genre such as romance/drama or action/adventure. Their characters are defined by the situation and setting that the author creates. If we are using characters from a particular series we have to adapt their already established personality and traits into the scenarios that we create for them to best show their representation without going out of character. Really it depends on the plot of your story and how your characters will interact and develop in the environment that you have created for them.

Also while Kishi does pass the tests, he doesn't do such a good job with his female characters. I can't even count the number of "Kishi is a sexist" or "Kishi hates females" threads that I've seen. Besides Sakura who is the main character no other female has gotten any real development in part 2, and she hasn't done anything useful in over 100 chapters. Ino, Hinata, Tenten, and Temari, who are all part of the current generation that is focused on haven't done anything significant whatsoever and lacked development. Konan was one shotted in two panels and Karin turns out to be a GPS system and another medical healer. The only thing I can really look for is Tsunade's up coming fight against Pein that showcases her true strength and full abilities.

Anyways, If we are talking about romance/drama stories then I like to see how the male/female characters develop their bond with one another and how they both impact each others thoughts and lives. If we are talking about action/adventure I like to see goal orientated characters who have either something to achieve or prove. Personally I like to read about tsundere type females as that is what I've come to expect and enjoy from reading Shounen manga. I like a strong female character with an aggressive attitude who still maintains a kind and nurturing side as a part of their personality.

[ciardha]

This test seems to be a little intollerant.


And if you fail this test is it impossible to create a good female character?

It's not intolerant, reverse the gender and see what I mean. People are socialized to see males in variety of roles but female characters are more often than not narrowly defined as just what the second test points out in more depth. (And Nowhere Man good addition! Yes, that is all to often a female character's only role in fanfiction and not a few professional works of fiction too.)

If you fail the test, yes, you have a big weakness in writing female characters. You need to examine how to make your female characters more than that: give her a mission of her own, her own ideals and how that makes her act, thinking about things other than the love interest, other responsibilities and emotional bonds, etc...

using Naruto manga as an example lets examine Sakura, as she is the main female character:

Sakura besides her growing love for Naruto, is a fighter and a medic nin (highly skilled on both) She has a responsibity as a high level medic nin and a student of Tsunade. She has responsibilities as a Chunnin level ninja- she can lead teams and go on missions alone. Besides her former crush on Sasuke and her growing love for Naruto, she also has a friendship bond with Ino, a close bond with Tsunade and Shizune, a brief but close bond with Chiyo, and a hint of a friendship with Temari. She has a somewhat ambilivent bond to Kakashi, Sai, and Sasuke in part 2 of the manga. She has a bit of a military type bond with Captain Yamato as the team leader. (That's just off the top of my head what I thought of what Sakura is other than Naruto's love interest)

[Vicious]

I'm going to agree with True Salvation. It's important for all or mostly all of the characters in a story to be independent, (mostly all is because it's very hard for a kid not to have something to revolve around) this way it makes for an interesting story plot and you aren't just centered on one particular character.

Of course you don't have to listen to me I just thought it would make for a better storyline.

[Illjwamh]

Hmm I can understand the first test, but whats the deal with the second test? Why does a female character have to be centered around a male character? Can't she stand on her own and have her own defining characteristics that don't deal with a male counterpart?

Um...that's kind of the whole point.

[Leney]

For any kind of fiction writing but works well for writing fanfic too.

This is great!. You can probably use it for characters of color/different ethnicities or LGBT characters, but I guess that doesn't really apply in Naruto fanfic. Although Kishi would fail the former big time. Does the latter even figure? I doubt he'll out any of his characters so, eh...

Edited by Leney, 24 August 2008 - 11:26 PM.

[Vicious]

Wait... why would you have the female die? All the NarutoxSakura stories I've read involved Naruto dying/disappearing, granted I've seen a few where Sakura does get raped but... I've only seen one really get into it... ok two but the other one was a harem.

Edited by Saint Michael, 25 August 2008 - 02:16 AM.

[jim1982]

Wait... why would you have the female die? All the NarutoxSakura stories I've read involved Naruto dying/disappearing, granted I've seen a few where Sakura does get raped but... I've only seen one really get into it... ok two but the other one was a harem.

Well sometimes its a plot to get the main character act a certain way. Like Naruto seeking revenge against Sasuke for killing Sakura.
And rape is one of those dark plots that is questionable to say the best.

[Vicious]

I'm guessing the quality of those fanfics would not be very good. So I won't bother.

[No WhereMan]

Well sometimes its a plot to get the main character act a certain way. Like Naruto seeking revenge against Sasuke for killing Sakura.
And rape is one of those dark plots that is questionable to say the best.

Only problem with 'rape' fics, its hardly ever truthfully portrayed. I mean I have read some fics where the rape scene occurs, there is the initial reaction. then a week later the character is right as rain. I don't care who you are, being rape is not only a physically traumatizing event but a mentally traumatizing event. Something that takes months and even years to come to terms with. So its hard for me to take a story that is so irresponsible with something that impacting seriously.

[jim1982]

Only problem with 'rape' fics, its hardly ever truthfully portrayed. I mean I have read some fics where the rape scene occurs, there is the initial reaction. then a week later the character is right as rain. I don't care who you are, being rape is not only a physically traumatizing event but a mentally traumatizing event. Something that takes months and even years to come to terms with. So its hard for me to take a story that is so irresponsible with something that impacting seriously.

I did read one that just mentioned in passing that naruto was raped when younger, then after team 7 was form, on a mission he finds Sakura after she was raped and it triggered a kinda beserker rage in him after they encounter the rapers of Sakura later. Though I think the story was flamed to death just because it mentioned rape.
Of course look at the stuff on AFF.net and one wonders what the difference in tort fics compare to something that was no worse that A Law and Order on tv