46 replies to this topic

[Pix]

I know we bash Masashi Kishimoto a lot on here, but I've always had this feeling in the back of my head that everything is not necessarily Kishimoto's fault. Let's take a trip back to memory lane for a moment: 

 

Dragon Ball Z. 

 

Akira Toriyama had to deal with a massive amount of executive meddling. How many of you still remember when Goku could transform into a monkey under the moon? A lot of writings like that went completely out the window once super saiyans became the main focus. Shounen Jump forced Toriyama to focus on them more because of their popularity. He really didn't have much say so in the matter.  

 

And if you're like me, you're probably suspicious of Bleach as well. There's the whole "Fullbringer arc" that arguably ruined the sales and popularity of Bleach. The arc was out of place- so much so that it almost seemed laughable after fighting against Aizen. Many theories suggest that Tite Kubo as well fell under pressure of Shounen Jump's editors, causing the series to continue way past it's due date. 

 

And this brings me to Naruto. Based on evidence, I highly believe that Shounen Jump editors write the story more so than the mangakas. The mangakas and the assistants are only there to draw. There's also that rumor (that's now somewhat verified) that the new editor of Naruto hated Sakura's character and wanted the story to focus on Hinata.  

 

So did Kishimoto really have a say so in the matter? Was he told to develop Narusaku as a red herring? Was he forced to create a Part III? And was his editor behind all of this?

[Pix]

Thinking about this makes me scared for Boku No Hero Academia's future...

[LuckyChi7]

Thinking about this makes me scared for Boku No Hero Academia's future...

 

Now you've got me feeling worried about it too, and that's starting to become probably my favorite manga of all time up there with Bleach, One Piece, AoT, and Tokyo Ghoul.  Honestly though I'm not too worried about Kohei and his Boku No Hero series because based on his omake for the volumes and if you see the twitter images he draws of his character it shows he's got a lot of passion for it. Honestly though when it comes to Boku No Hero, i'm not one for estimating how long a series will last but I believe that either chapter 200 or 300 is enough unlesss Kohei's got something planned for the series.    

[Nar123]

I know we bash Masashi Kishimoto a lot on here, but I've always had this feeling in the back of my head that everything is not necessarily Kishimoto's fault. Let's take a trip back to memory lane for a moment: 

 

Dragon Ball Z. 

 

Akira Toriyama had to deal with a massive amount of executive meddling. How many of you still remember when Goku could transform into a monkey under the moon? A lot of writings like that went completely out the window once super saiyans became the main focus. Shounen Jump forced Toriyama to focus on them more because of their popularity. He really didn't have much say so in the matter.  

 

And if you're like me, you're probably suspicious of Bleach as well. There's the whole "Fullbringer arc" that arguably ruined the sales and popularity of Bleach. The arc was out of place- so much so that it almost seemed laughable after fighting against Aizen. Many theories suggest that Tite Kubo as well fell under pressure of Shounen Jump's editors, causing the series to continue way past it's due date. 

 

And this brings me to Naruto. Based on evidence, I highly believe that Shounen Jump editors write the story more so than the mangakas. The mangakas and the assistants are only there to draw. There's also that rumor (that's now somewhat verified) that the new editor of Naruto hated Sakura's character and wanted the story to focus on Hinata.  

 

So did Kishimoto really have a say so in the matter? Was he told to develop Narusaku as a red herring? Was he forced to create a Part III? And was his editor behind all of this?

 

When a mangaka wants and he is a known famous author he takes kitten from no one, ex: Oda.

 

I don't know about Akira, some things changed regarding his outlook on the story and these things are the original ending ( supposed to end at Cell arc) and the fact that Gohan was supposed to be the main hero in Boo arc , but if I should say editor's meddling had little interference in DBZ success since DBZ had an overall simple plot and focused on the typical battle shonens fights sp there were few things edditors meddling could actively ruin

 

In Naruto not only the author was a naive guy but he was also completely and utterly inept at creating a story, so in the beginning he obviously left the creative handling to his main editor, Yahagi.Yahagi however left the Naruto team after Sasuke acquired his MS (around 2008)

There's a interview around the web in which Yahagi says to kishimoto he told him to "not listen to his editors so much" to which kishimoto says "I know", and then Yahagi said "but you kept doing it" and then kishi's response "I know"

 

Back in 2010 kishimoto gave an interview on jump Fiesta on how he was struggling against comparisions between Hinata and Sakura, he also said he would try to make Sakura more heroine like and even defended her, I'd say these comparisions came from his new editors.

 

Based on these facts I think it's obvious that from a certain point kishimoto stopped caring and just listened to his editors every word, and that included give SP green card to make a movie about Hinata. The fact that these new editors didn't had the same brilliance as Yahagi is strenghtened by the fact the plot got messier and messier and eventually got lost on itself, it tried to be a complex story (unlike DBZ) but utterly and completely failed

 

So I think the blame of Naruto's failure should be put on Kishimoto's spineless personality/ lack of talent and on the meddling of these new editors.

Edited by Nar123, 22 March 2015 - 02:52 AM.

[Nar123]

Thinking about this makes me scared for Boku No Hero Academia's future...

 

For this series you should look on the author, see his personality, if he's a newbie or something like that. However the last thing is no indication of anything, I mean Isayama is a newbie and he outright refused shonen jump because they wanted to mess with his work

[Pix]

 

For this series you should look on the author, see his personality, if he's a newbie or something like that. However the last thing is no indication of anything, I mean Isayama is a newbie and he outright refused shonen jump because they wanted to mess with his work

Horikoshi isn't necessarily new, and he's worked with Shounen Jump before so that's good. The issue lies within his popularity though. Will Boku no Hero Academia become so popular that he'll have stricter editors than what he's used to? This could also be a factor. What if they bring in the editors of Naruto to work on Bnha? That in itself is a frightening thought.

 

 

When a mangaka wants and he is a known famous author he takes kitten from no one, ex: Oda.

 

I don't know about Akira, some things changed regarding his outlook on the story and these things are the original ending ( supposed to end at Cell arc) and the fact that Gohan was supposed to be the main hero in Boo arc , but if I should say editor's meddling had little interference in DBZ success since DBZ had an overall simple plot and focused on the typical battle shonens fights sp there were few things edditors meddling could actively ruin

 

In Naruto not only the author was a naive guy but he was also completely and utterly inept at creating a story, so in the beginning he obviously left the creative handling to his main editor, Yahagi.Yahagi however left the Naruto team after Sasuke acquired his MS (around 2008)

There's a interview around the web in which Yahagi says to kishimoto he told him to "not listen to his editors so much" to which kishimoto says "I know", and then Yahagi said "but you kept doing it" and then kishi's response "I know"

 

Back in 2010 kishimoto gave an interview on jump Fiesta on how he was struggling against comparisions between Hinata and Sakura, he also said he would try to make Sakura more heroine like and even defended her, I'd say these comparisions came from his new editors.

 

Based on these facts I think it's obvious that from a certain point kishimoto stopped caring and just listened to his editors every word, and that included give SP green card to make a movie about Hinata. The fact that these new editors didn't had the same brilliance as Yahagi is strenghtened by the fact the plot got messier and messier and eventually got lost on itself, it tried to be a complex story (unlike DBZ) but utterly and completely failed

 

So I think the blame of Naruto's failure should be put on Kishimoto's spineless personality/ lack of talent and on the meddling of these new editors.

You make a very good point. I wonder how the team that created Hikaru no Go and Death Note handle the editors at SJ. How does Oda deal with them? And this also has me thinking...how scary is it to be a new mangaka to work for the most popular manga company. They can easily run you over if you're not careful. 

 

Which brings me to Katsura Hoshino (once again). The rumors are that she eventually got so fed up with her editors and teammates working on D. Gray Man that she just went on hiatus all together. (Even though she does get sick easily.) 

 

But now I'm also considering....what about Togashi?? Where are his editors?! Why haven't they told him what to do with Hunter x Hunter already?! Why aren't they helping him??

[Nar123]

Horikoshi isn't necessarily new, and he's worked with Shounen Jump before so that's good. The issue lies within his popularity though. Will Boku no Hero Academia become so popular that he'll have stricter editors than what he's used to? This could also be a factor. What if they bring in the editors of Naruto to work on Bnha? That in itself is a frightening thought.

 

You make a very good point. I wonder how the team that created Hikaru no Go and Death Note handle the editors at SJ. How does Oda deal with them? And this also has me thinking...how scary is it to be a new mangaka to work for the most popular manga company. They can easily run you over if you're not careful. 

 

Which brings me to Katsura Hoshino (once again). The rumors are that she eventually got so fed up with her editors and teammates working on D. Gray Man that she just went on hiatus all together. (Even though she does get sick easily.) 

 

But now I'm also considering....what about Togashi?? Where are his editors?! Why haven't they told him what to do with Hunter x Hunter already?! Why aren't they helping him??

 

Some authors are just so famous and have so prestige that they are on a whole new stage, one stage that editors and the like of them don't really bother messing with their work, ex: Oda, Togashi , Miura (who made Beserk), Inoue ( from Vagabond), etc

 

However these middle tier authors generally end up suffering with editors, like the one you gave a example of

 

Kishimoto, I'd dare say had the chance to become one of these "top tier authors", but as I said lack of talent + naivete coupled with the fact that kishimoto cares more for money than his story, made him easy work for manipulation

Edited by Nar123, 22 March 2015 - 03:35 AM.

[Pix]

 

Now you've got me feeling worried about it too, and that's starting to become probably my favorite manga of all time up there with Bleach, One Piece, AoT, and Tokyo Ghoul.  Honestly though I'm not too worried about Kohei and his Boku No Hero series because based on his omake for the volumes and if you see the twitter images he draws of his character it shows he's got a lot of passion for it. Honestly though when it comes to Boku No Hero, i'm not one for estimating how long a series will last but I believe that either chapter 200 or 300 is enough unlesss Kohei's got something planned for the series.    

I don't trust any mangaka from Shounen Jump at this point, but I believe in Kohei. If he breaks my heart too, I really can't say that I didn't see it coming. The guy has amazing talent (that is to say, he thought of it and not his editors  ) But it seems that if you're popular in Shounen Jump, then you loose your creative license. We can only hope this doesn't happen to Kohei.  

 

If anything, this is what I hope for the most: That's he's the type of artist that plans out the entire story before he begins. That's the underlying issue. Many writers fail to do this one task. And then a mess becomes of it afterwards.

 

 

Some authors are just so famous and have so prestige that they are on a whole new stage, one stage that editors and the like of them don't really bother messing with their work, ex: Oda, Togashi , Miura (who made Beserk), Inoue ( from Vagabond), etc

 

However these middle tier authors generally end up suffering with editors, like the one you gave a example of

 

Kishimoto, I'd dare say had the chance to become one of these "top tier authors", but as I said lack of talent + naivete coupled with the fact that kishimoto cares more for money than his story, made him easy work for manipulation

Good point. I gotta say, Kishimoto really is a rare example. At least Akira was honest with his distaste towards his own work after SJ took control over it, but Kishimoto is really showing his true colors here. He didn't have a say so, but that makes him just as guilty. He didn't care enough to combat his own editors. He's even willing to let other people add on to his story of over 15 years. He basically the model example of what happens when you stop caring for your own story.

[Codus N]

I know we bash Masashi Kishimoto a lot on here, but I've always had this feeling in the back of my head that everything is not necessarily Kishimoto's fault. Let's take a trip back to memory lane for a moment: 
 
Dragon Ball Z. 
 
Akira Toriyama had to deal with a massive amount of executive meddling. How many of you still remember when Goku could transform into a monkey under the moon? A lot of writings like that went completely out the window once super saiyans became the main focus. Shounen Jump forced Toriyama to focus on them more because of their popularity. He really didn't have much say so in the matter.  
 
And if you're like me, you're probably suspicious of Bleach as well. There's the whole "Fullbringer arc" that arguably ruined the sales and popularity of Bleach. The arc was out of place- so much so that it almost seemed laughable after fighting against Aizen. Many theories suggest that Tite Kubo as well fell under pressure of Shounen Jump's editors, causing the series to continue way past it's due date. 
 
And this brings me to Naruto. Based on evidence, I highly believe that Shounen Jump editors write the story more so than the mangakas. The mangakas and the assistants are only there to draw. There's also that rumor (that's now somewhat verified) that the new editor of Naruto hated Sakura's character and wanted the story to focus on Hinata.  
 
So did Kishimoto really have a say so in the matter? Was he told to develop Narusaku as a red herring? Was he forced to create a Part III? And was his editor behind all of this?

Actually, I think the Fullbringer arc was planned from the beginning. But the reason why the arc became Bleach's downfall is because of the editors who were around Aizen saga. I recall the editors pushing for a lot of characters during that saga from an interview with Kubo and that, in turn dragged things out too much that by the time the series reached Fullbringer, fans were already tired of the story. Kubo already had this current arc planned since 10 years ago, but he never got around to it until much later because of executive meddling to drag out the Aizen saga.

As for OP, I feel Oda is also going through the same thing. The guy's already landed in the hospital for a couple of times, and I believe he's already stated a couple of times that he's getting tired. Honestly, I'm not interested in any of Oda's side characters other than the main crew. Rather than popping up new characters left and right like Kubo does, I personally think it's better to focus on developing the main crew each arc. To top it off, Oda is the biggest money maker for Jump. You really think they'll let a cash cow like him go? I'm already starting to see it as of recently. The Marineford arc was fantastic though.

For Kohei, well..... I certainly don't think it will be long until they start enslaving him.

[Pix]

Actually, I think the Fullbringer arc was planned from the beginning. But the reason why the arc became Bleach's downfall is because of the editors who were around Aizen saga. I recall the editors pushing for a lot of characters during that saga from an interview with Kubo and that, in turn dragged things out too much that by the time the series reached Fullbringer, fans were already tired of the story. Kubo already had this current arc planned since 10 years ago, but he never got around to it until much later because of executive meddling to drag out the Aizen saga.

As for OP, I feel Oda is also going through the same thing. The guy's already landed in the hospital for a couple of times, and I believe he's already stated a couple of times that he's getting tired. Honestly, I'm not interested in any of Oda's side characters other than the main crew. Rather than popping up new characters left and right like Kubo does, I personally think it's better to focus on developing the main crew each arc. To top it off, Oda is the biggest money maker for Jump. You really think they'll let a cash cow like him go? I'm already starting to see it as of recently. The Marineford arc was fantastic though.

For Kohei, well..... I certainly don't think it will be long until they start enslaving him.

God this scares me...Bnha is already such a rare jewel of a story. The art, the plot, and the storytelling is already amazing. It's hard to capture readers like that in such a short amount of time. It's gonna be a shame to see such a series get wrecked.

[Phantom_999]

They BETTER not be f***ing with my new favourite series in wsj......... I finally found joy again in that magazine. So they better not mess it up. BNHA if anyone did not know

Edited by Phantom_999, 22 March 2015 - 04:47 PM.

[rikakim94]

Actually, I think the Fullbringer arc was planned from the beginning. But the reason why the arc became Bleach's downfall is because of the editors who were around Aizen saga. I recall the editors pushing for a lot of characters during that saga from an interview with Kubo and that, in turn dragged things out too much that by the time the series reached Fullbringer, fans were already tired of the story. Kubo already had this current arc planned since 10 years ago, but he never got around to it until much later because of executive meddling to drag out the Aizen saga.

As for OP, I feel Oda is also going through the same thing. The guy's already landed in the hospital for a couple of times, and I believe he's already stated a couple of times that he's getting tired. Honestly, I'm not interested in any of Oda's side characters other than the main crew. Rather than popping up new characters left and right like Kubo does, I personally think it's better to focus on developing the main crew each arc. To top it off, Oda is the biggest money maker for Jump. You really think they'll let a cash cow like him go? I'm already starting to see it as of recently. The Marineford arc was fantastic though.

For Kohei, well..... I certainly don't think it will be long until they start enslaving him.

 

For bleach i found this info on tv tropes. 

 

Bleach:

• Tite Kubo mentioned in an interview that he'd originally planned to continue the sequence of Urban Fantasy stories thatBleach opens with and to further develop Ichigo's other classmates. However, Shueisha overruled this, ordering him to hurry up the schedule and introduce the Shinigami, so as to kickstart the Myth Arc. The fandom is split as to whether this was good or bad.
• Kubo admitted that he had never planned for the Arrancar Arc to go on as long as it did. However, the Arrancars were unexpectedly popular so the editors wanted more time devoted to them. Due to each character having to be given A Day in the Limelight the arc stretched on for years, creating considerable Arc Fatigue within the fandom until Aizen was defeated.

If anyone else is interested in naruto meddling i found one I feel like its still kishi's fault for his obsession towards sasuke tho. 

 

• Ironically enough, one could say that Sasuke from Naruto owes his existence to this; when Masashi was working on the series, the editor told Masashi that Naruto needed a rival, thus creating the spotlight-stealing divisive character we all know.

Edited by rikakim94, 22 March 2015 - 06:03 PM.

[Pix]

 

 

For bleach i found this info on tv tropes. 

 

Bleach:

• Tite Kubo mentioned in an interview that he'd originally planned to continue the sequence of Urban Fantasy stories thatBleach opens with and to further develop Ichigo's other classmates. However, Shueisha overruled this, ordering him to hurry up the schedule and introduce the Shinigami, so as to kickstart the Myth Arc. The fandom is split as to whether this was good or bad.
• Kubo admitted that he had never planned for the Arrancar Arc to go on as long as it did. However, the Arrancars were unexpectedly popular so the editors wanted more time devoted to them. Due to each character having to be given A Day in the Limelight the arc stretched on for years, creating considerable Arc Fatigue within the fandom until Aizen was defeated.

If anyone else is interested in naruto meddling i found one I feel like its still kishi's fault for his obsession towards sasuke tho. 

 

• Ironically enough, one could say that Sasuke from Naruto owes his existence to this; when Masashi was working on the series, the editor told Masashi that Naruto needed a rival, thus creating the spotlight-stealing divisive character we all know.

 

Yeah, not surprising at all. It's the constant Executive Meddling that eventually ruins good stories. I'm certainly positive that this is also the reason as why both Naruto and Ichigo received over the top, massive powerups that derail the story from it's original purpose. 

[LuckyChi7]

They BETTER not be f***ing with my new favourite series in wsj......... I finally found joy again in that magazine. So they better not mess it up. BNHA if anyone did not know

 

That's how I feel too, granted there's still Bleach and One Piece, but BNHA filled the empty void that was ripped out of me from Naruto once the ending came on the wsj magazine. I swear don't kitten with Kohei's ingenious writing. I highly doubt he's the type of author to just give into his editors because based on what I've heard about him from Volume omakes, He cares about the kitten he creates. I'm not sure if Oda style is the write way to go yet, but close to that  status. Point is wsj let Kohei do what he believes. 

[luffyq1]

all on kishi and his interviews make it worse.

[EmperorZeo]

all on kishi and his interviews make it worse.

I actually want to see Kishi do more interviews. If only to hear him say more stupid and contradictory things to discredit the story even further.

[Moon_Girl]

I'm a firm believer that executive meddling (and possibly western fans) are the reason Naruto crashed and burned. I wish Naruto's original editor stuck with him till the end...things would have turned out so much better.

The war arc probably wouldn't have been such a gross mess either and Hinata probably would have stayed in the fuggin' background like she was always meant to.

But in the end, although it does appear that Kishimoto tried to fight it, he just didn't have a strong enough backbone to hold his ground.

 

I once heard that Oda was angry at Kishimoto's ending. I don't know if it's true but...maybe he knew about the executive meddling and was upset Kishimoto caved in?

[rocci]

@moon
It's just a rumor. Oda never do that.

[rikakim94]

In this video kishi is known for having a lot of editor changes.

 

Edited by rikakim94, 25 March 2015 - 01:00 AM.

[LuckyChi7]

In this video kishi is known for having a lot of editor changes.

 

 

 

I guess that explains alot with the ending, and I already had a feeling this was going to be it: