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#27421 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 03:47 AM

Apparently Bran becoming king was something D&D came up with because they were obsessed with fan theories and wanted to create something totally unexpected' likely Arya killing the night king is that same thing. That whole "subverting expectations" BS young postmodernist writers like. But they knew getting rid of Dany, a woman, would cause an outrage; so they settled on Bran a crippled hoped that it would lessen the criticism. Remember in the book bran is suppose to become one with the weirwoods. Jon was suppose to be king with Jamie as his golden hand -you know I have never seen any fan theories coming up with this- after killing his sister. Dany was to kill her "nephew" and destroy much of king's landing but they didn't adapt him. Also D&D relationship with GRRM which has been increasingly strained over the past few seasons finally broke with this season. He apparently is finally motivated to finish the sixth book.  


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 24 May 2019 - 12:48 PM.


#27422 James S Cassidy

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 01:13 PM

 

Oh, Masashi didn't write that. That was someone else. Remember, there was an interview with the writer who admitted he/she didn't do research on the manga and wanted to write about the topic of love for The Last.

-"But Kishimoto endorsed it and even did interviews saying how even Hinata knitting the red scarf was from a real life experience and how they based the whole movie around this concept."

-"Even Boruto's says on the cover: "Supervised by Kishimoto""

I could argue:
"Well, Kishimoto is not denying anything so it must be endorsed by him. So it must be 100% canon."

This only goes to what I said previously: Bail O'Lies said that SP wants to preserve Kishimoto's canon, but the only thing they are preserving is how NH and SS are miserable while everything else is altered to the point of unrecognizable.

Why? Why is this one aspect the only thing they potentially preserve from the Kishimoto's original writings? Why not just change it? Seems counter intuitive to continue to preserve this one fact about the series while trying to push the idea that NH and SS were "meant to be." Especially true when the fandom that remains active ignores the canon outright and automatically assumes that NH and SS are happy prospering couples. Why not just rewrite it? The fandom that actually cared about this series left years ago and the ones that remain write their own canon anyway. Might as well just retcon how happy the couples are. Say that Sasuke was always home. Naruto bangs Hinata every night and is never busy as Hokage. Make Boruto a good boy who loves his father. It's not like the previous established canon stopped them from retconning before. Naruto the Last makes no mention at all any time through out Boruto.

You see what I mean? It's like saying red is your favorite color, but you keep buying things that are blue. It's like saying "I hate hamburgers," but that is all you ever eat. We are shown they are miserable, but told they are happy.

Are they high? Is there a gas leak at SP?
 

 

He never said that Salad was Karin's daughter from what I recall he gave a none answer that was pretty much it could be either of them. Kishi never said anything about that stupid rivalry claim from I recall that was from the movie written by someone else as Derock points out.

He never said it was biologically Sakura's daughter either, but they run with that one any way. Come on...we all know the truth. We KNOW Salad is Karin's kid. We can beat around the bush all we want, but the story of Salad's conception combined with Karin having the umbilical cord which is a Japanese tradition that the birth mother keeps the cord even if given up for adoption....and seeing how Kishimoto is an old fashioned Japanese man....

So we can say "Well, technically he never said..." Yeah, but WE KNOW that the clues are there in Naruto Gaiden that HEAVILY suggest Karin is the birth mother. Now all of a sudden you guys want to back-peddle. Karin gives Sakura her glasses to give to Salad?

The whole thing does anything to prove, but point blank say "Karin is Salad's mother." Hell, Kisame had a kid...some how....

Of course, we do have the Red Scarf story element in Naruto the Last which was added by Kishimoto himself. As he stated himself in an interview...
https://www.reddit.c...e_was_added_by/


 

They did have the villain from that appear in Boruto to make clear how powerful Bolt Super-gan was. They just don't use it as much as they would like because of the backlash. To kishi it was only sort of canon. To SP it is canon it just something they can't use often.

 

Knock Knock.

Who's there?

Toneri?

Who?

You know the guy who tried to force your mother to marry him and was trying to use the moon to destroy the world...
Never heard of you.
Well...can I come back and do something?
No.
 

 

They actually did adapt the gaiden and like I said at the time they merely tried to soften the negative implications. They did the same for Bolt's movie. Though like I said they always shoot themselves in the foot whenever they try to fix something.

"Soften the negative implications:"

They can do it for that, but continue to push that SS and NH are miserable? Uh huh...has me convinced.

Too bad they can't bring up Chapter 3.....
 

The narrative that this was an ending the author supported. We may know that crap and he doesn't care anymore besides that. But not everyone knows that. They can't lose those people. Also it is never a good image for an adaptation to openly disrespect & show contempt to the original work. AGaThe original worked ended with nH/SS, but kishi also wrote the gaiden and Boruto that showed those pairing in negative lights intentionally or not. SP are required to show them while again trying to soften the negative implication they cannot completely remove them. It is only when they pass those story can they slowly try to change the relationships.

No, everyone with a brain knows that. Everyone who actually follows the series knows that. Everyone who wasn't in for the pairings knows that. Heck, even the rabid NH and SS knows this, but they REFUSE to acknowledge it because then they know that what they love so much of the series is just a downright lie.

They know they just choose to ignore it for their own fantasies, but SP has been disrespecting the "original concept" long before the ending even occurred. How many fillers just go against the story as a whole? But see that is the thing isn't it? "Fillers" since labeled as "non-canon" can be easily hand-waved away, but let me push this idea to you

But not everyone knows...that fillers are non-canon so they take it as canon because..."Hinata is awesome." How many pro-enders use fillers to prove how much better Hinata is over Sakura? You can't deny this one because we see them use filler in arguments.

So if you want to use the argument that "not everyone knows" as a means to excuse it, then not everyone knows that fillers are non-canon and assume that it is canon and thus through that logic SP has been going against the original concept since the very beginning with every filler they make...because "not everyone knows it is non-canon." If a person only watches the anime...then how would they know what is canon and non-canon unless someone else told them it wasn't? If no one denies or acknowledges canonization...then SP has been going against the original concept every time they make a filler episode that is just a little bit different. (ex. Hinata can use medicial ninjutsu in the anime.)

I'm sorry, that is a really stupid argument when you think about it. That is one hell of a two way street.
"But not everyone knew Naruto loved Sakura even though he said it 5 times." See? That's a cheat argument.

It's like how everyone thinks Ron Toye works for Funimation when he actually doesn't, but people assume he does cause he has "insider information." If SP works with Kishimoto, then people could assume Kishimoto approves of the filler canon regardless of what his manga says. Any person who doesn't read the manga would not know Kishimoto didn't write the filler and assume he approves of it saying "it's canon." Since some fans assume and use the filler in arguments for why Hinata is better for Naruto...well...hard to argue against that

It is also very very sad when you realize
Road to Ninja which is actually entirely written by Kishimoto is non-canon
Naruto the Last which is NOT entirely written by Kishimoto is canon.

I could make the argument that not having Road to Ninja canon is "going against the original concept." Making NH and SS canon is "going against the original concept."

THE REAL INSANITY IS TRYING TO CONVINCE US THAT ALL OF THIS WAS PLANNED FROM THE BEGINNING.

Selective reasoning is selective.

You can keep posting videos of insanity all you want, Bail, but let's not forget that the Pro-enders and the fans that still remain can't distinguish from canon and not canon. They can't use any sort of common sense to sit down and say "Wait, none of this seems right..."  If you were to ask an average bystander what they feel about the series, they would tell you that the series makes no sense overall...



What if I told you that insane was reading a series for 15 years expecting a great ending to characters that were well-developed only to be told in the end to piss off?

Kishimoto doesn't say "no."

So sick of this "pick and choose what is canon" arguments because it is just denying any responsibility of saying "Hey, we messed up and we were wrong." Whether it be Naruto or Dragonball Super.

"It is only canon if supports what we want, but not if it goes against what we want."

So sure, Goku can blow up multi-universes with a fart, but the whole thing being unable to lift 1000 tons? "Yeah, totally non-canon even though it is written by Toriyama."

P.S. Someone already argued with me on something similar. Yusuke Murata does the OPM manga and is not the original writer. ONE is. However, when asked who would win in a fight Goku or Saitama? Murata said he didn't know. When I argued that asking Murata is NOT asking ONE himself, someone argued that it is just as good.

So if the average person's mentality is that a person associated with someone else is just as good a source...then what is stopping someone from assuming that SP knows the canon of the Naruto as a whole because they are associated with Kishimoto and thus their fillers are canon? You and I both know that they are two different identities, but to an average person who doesn't dive into behind the scenes will never know for sure. So using the "but not everyone knows that" argument I can prove that SP has already went against the original concept and why not just go for the whole thing? Burn the canon entirely. As long as NH and SS are forced into a "happy marriage" what else matters? If they truly cared about story...then NS would have been canon long before...

Look at Gargoyles the Tv show that was originally on Disney. The original creator and writer was fired, but they continued the series without him. The writer came out and said "I don't consider their seasons canon." So it would NOT be unheard of if Kishimoto denied canonization for some of the story elements of the series. Is he going to do that? Hell no. Why? He don't care. He has moved on.

Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 24 May 2019 - 02:44 PM.

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#27423 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 05:19 PM


 
 
The answer is still the same. They are stuck with having to follow what Kishimoto wrote for them. They can't contradict that without breaking their narrative. Remember this is the story Kishimoto always wanted to happen after Naruto. The end pairing Kishimoto chosen were nH/SS. NS wasn't a romantic pairing. So on and so forth. Its afterwards (after the gaiden for SS, and after the chunin exam for nH) they can try and go about changing it, but they still have to work from their initial position. Which from what I understand is what they are trying to do..they just are failing at it in our eyes, and some of their fans'.

nice clip of vaas and is right I'm waiting for Naruto to deal with a psycho like vaas and fail.

  

My question is, if Hinata is an angel goddess as she is with her “large rack and passive attitude that no male will feel emasculated by”, why need her to be like Sakura at all?

It's like in infinite crisis main superman telling earth one superman if the world is perfect it doesn't need a superman.
  

Oh, Masashi didn't write that. That was someone else. Remember, there was an interview with the writer who admitted he/she didn't do research on the manga and wanted to write about the topic of love for The Last.

That explains so much if that's right and this why researching what you are doing is important or you get highlander 2 which ruins the lore of the series.

#27424 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 05:30 PM

-"But Kishimoto endorsed it and even did interviews saying how even Hinata knitting the red scarf was from a real life experience and how they based the whole movie around this concept."
-"Even Boruto's says on the cover: "Supervised by Kishimoto""
I could argue:
"Well, Kishimoto is not denying anything so it must be endorsed by him. So it must be 100% canon."
This only goes to what I said previously: Bail O'Lies said that SP wants to preserve Kishimoto's canon, but the only thing they are preserving is how NH and SS are miserable while everything else is altered to the point of unrecognizable.
Why? Why is this one aspect the only thing they potentially preserve from the Kishimoto's original writings? Why not just change it? Seems counter intuitive to continue to preserve this one fact about the series while trying to push the idea that NH and SS were "meant to be." Especially true when the fandom that remains active ignores the canon outright and automatically assumes that NH and SS are happy prospering couples. Why not just rewrite it? The fandom that actually cared about this series left years ago and the ones that remain write their own canon anyway. Might as well just retcon how happy the couples are. Say that Sasuke was always home. Naruto bangs Hinata every night and is never busy as Hokage. Make Boruto a good boy who loves his father. It's not like the previous established canon stopped them from retconning before. Naruto the Last makes no mention at all any time through out Boruto.
You see what I mean? It's like saying red is your favorite color, but you keep buying things that are blue. It's like saying "I hate hamburgers," but that is all you ever eat. We are shown they are miserable, but told they are happy.
Are they high? Is there a gas leak at SP?
 

He never said it was biologically Sakura's daughter either, but they run with that one any way. Come on...we all know the truth. We KNOW Salad is Karin's kid. We can beat around the bush all we want, but the story of Salad's conception combined with Karin having the umbilical cord which is a Japanese tradition that the birth mother keeps the cord even if given up for adoption....and seeing how Kishimoto is an old fashioned Japanese man....
So we can say "Well, technically he never said..." Yeah, but WE KNOW that the clues are there in Naruto Gaiden that HEAVILY suggest Karin is the birth mother. Now all of a sudden you guys want to back-peddle. Karin gives Sakura her glasses to give to Salad?
The whole thing does anything to prove, but point blank say "Karin is Salad's mother." Hell, Kisame had a kid...some how....
Of course, we do have the Red Scarf story element in Naruto the Last which was added by Kishimoto himself. As he stated himself in an interview...https://www.reddit.c...e_was_added_by/
 

 
Knock Knock.
Who's there?
Toneri?
Who?
You know the guy who tried to force your mother to marry him and was trying to use the moon to destroy the world...
Never heard of you.
Well...can I come back and do something?
No.
 
 

"Soften the negative implications:"
They can do it for that, but continue to push that SS and NH are miserable? Uh huh...has me convinced.
Too bad they can't bring up Chapter 3.....
 

No, everyone with a brain knows that. Everyone who actually follows the series knows that. Everyone who wasn't in for the pairings knows that. Heck, even the rabid NH and SS knows this, but they REFUSE to acknowledge it because then they know that what they love so much of the series is just a downright lie.
They know they just choose to ignore it for their own fantasies, but SP has been disrespecting the "original concept" long before the ending even occurred. How many fillers just go against the story as a whole? But see that is the thing isn't it? "Fillers" since labeled as "non-canon" can be easily hand-waved away, but let me push this idea to youBut not everyone knows...that fillers are non-canon so they take it as canon because..."Hinata is awesome." How many pro-enders use fillers to prove how much better Hinata is over Sakura? You can't deny this one because we see them use filler in arguments.
So if you want to use the argument that "not everyone knows" as a means to excuse it, then not everyone knows that fillers are non-canon and assume that it is canon and thus through that logic SP has been going against the original concept since the very beginning with every filler they make...because "not everyone knows it is non-canon." If a person only watches the anime...then how would they know what is canon and non-canon unless someone else told them it wasn't? If no one denies or acknowledges canonization...then SP has been going against the original concept every time they make a filler episode that is just a little bit different. (ex. Hinata can use medicial ninjutsu in the anime.)
I'm sorry, that is a really stupid argument when you think about it. That is one hell of a two way street.
"But not everyone knew Naruto loved Sakura even though he said it 5 times." See? That's a cheat argument.
It's like how everyone thinks Ron Toye works for Funimation when he actually doesn't, but people assume he does cause he has "insider information." If SP works with Kishimoto, then people could assume Kishimoto approves of the filler canon regardless of what his manga says. Any person who doesn't read the manga would not know Kishimoto didn't write the filler and assume he approves of it saying "it's canon." Since some fans assume and use the filler in arguments for why Hinata is better for Naruto...well...hard to argue against that
It is also very very sad when you realize
Road to Ninja which is actually entirely written by Kishimoto is non-canon
Naruto the Last which is NOT entirely written by Kishimoto is canon.
I could make the argument that not having Road to Ninja canon is "going against the original concept." Making NH and SS canon is "going against the original concept."
THE REAL INSANITY IS TRYING TO CONVINCE US THAT ALL OF THIS WAS PLANNED FROM THE BEGINNING.
Selective reasoning is selective.
You can keep posting videos of insanity all you want, Bail, but let's not forget that the Pro-enders and the fans that still remain can't distinguish from canon and not canon. They can't use any sort of common sense to sit down and say "Wait, none of this seems right..."  If you were to ask an average bystander what they feel about the series, they would tell you that the series makes no sense overall...

What if I told you that insane was reading a series for 15 years expecting a great ending to characters that were well-developed only to be told in the end to piss off?
Kishimoto doesn't say "no."
So sick of this "pick and choose what is canon" arguments because it is just denying any responsibility of saying "Hey, we messed up and we were wrong." Whether it be Naruto or Dragonball Super.
"It is only canon if supports what we want, but not if it goes against what we want."
So sure, Goku can blow up multi-universes with a fart, but the whole thing being unable to lift 1000 tons? "Yeah, totally non-canon even though it is written by Toriyama."
P.S. Someone already argued with me on something similar. Yusuke Murata does the OPM manga and is not the original writer. ONE is. However, when asked who would win in a fight Goku or Saitama? Murata said he didn't know. When I argued that asking Murata is NOT asking ONE himself, someone argued that it is just as good.
So if the average person's mentality is that a person associated with someone else is just as good a source...then what is stopping someone from assuming that SP knows the canon of the Naruto as a whole because they are associated with Kishimoto and thus their fillers are canon? You and I both know that they are two different identities, but to an average person who doesn't dive into behind the scenes will never know for sure. So using the "but not everyone knows that" argument I can prove that SP has already went against the original concept and why not just go for the whole thing? Burn the canon entirely. As long as NH and SS are forced into a "happy marriage" what else matters? If they truly cared about story...then NS would have been canon long before...
Look at Gargoyles the Tv show that was originally on Disney. The original creator and writer was fired, but they continued the series without him. The writer came out and said "I don't consider their seasons canon." So it would NOT be unheard of if Kishimoto denied canonization for some of the story elements of the series. Is he going to do that? Hell no. Why? He don't care. He has moved on.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

Agreed they use filler and it's not canon. Probably there fave is the hinata waterfall dance which makes them creepier.
Just shows how pointless toneri was cause has he been in the bolt manga?
Gargoyles is a great show especially season 2.
No I'm with you James NH and ss was not planned especially given how the manga played out only thing kishi planned was that farce final fight with Naruto and Sasuke which really accomplish nothing.

#27425 Nostradamus

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 02:55 PM

Apparently Bran becoming king was something D&D came up with because they were obsessed with fan theories and wanted to create something totally unexpected' likely Arya killing the night king is that same thing. That whole "subverting expectations" BS young postmodernist writers like. But they knew getting rid of Dany, a woman, would cause an outrage; so they settled on Bran a crippled hoped that it would lessen the criticism. Remember in the book bran is suppose to become one with the weirwoods. Jon was suppose to be king with Jamie as his golden hand -you know I have never seen any fan theories coming up with this- after killing his sister. Dany was to kill her "nephew" and destroy much of king's landing but they didn't adapt him. Also D&D relationship with GRRM which has been increasingly strained over the past few seasons finally broke with this season. He apparently is finally motivated to finish the sixth book.  

God I hate this stupid trend of writers subverting our expectations. It's been proven so many times that they can't handle it and only ends up destroying the story and making people revolt against it because it's dumb.

Obviously it's done because most stories are predictable and they want to Wow the audience, but they always fail because their great moment of wowing the audience is stupid and it almost always destroys what people loved about the story or characters.

For those who don't know what subverting expectations means, it's just doing something that the audience wasn't expecting.

My favorite show did this and it ended up so badly that the show got cancelled. The people who continue to this don't get it. The audience does want to be subverted in some cases but not always and when they want to be subverted they want to be pleasantly subverted in a way that it aligns with what they were expecting in the first place.

 

That's the idea behind subversion is that you want to give someone what they want and at the same time giving them something they weren't expecting. However what they weren't expecting still has to be in lines with what they want.


                         CZSn9hA.jpg
 
Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.


#27426 jak123

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 10:10 PM

Apparently Bran becoming king was something D&D came up with because they were obsessed with fan theories and wanted to create something totally unexpected' likely Arya killing the night king is that same thing. That whole "subverting expectations" BS young postmodernist writers like. But they knew getting rid of Dany, a woman, would cause an outrage; so they settled on Bran a crippled hoped that it would lessen the criticism. Remember in the book bran is suppose to become one with the weirwoods. Jon was suppose to be king with Jamie as his golden hand -you know I have never seen any fan theories coming up with this- after killing his sister. Dany was to kill her "nephew" and destroy much of king's landing but they didn't adapt him. Also D&D relationship with GRRM which has been increasingly strained over the past few seasons finally broke with this season. He apparently is finally motivated to finish the sixth book.  

I've talked with people who have read the books and they said book Bran becoming king would make more sense than show Bran. Apparently they didn't adapt a lot of his story. 


Edited by jak123, 27 May 2019 - 01:38 AM.


#27427 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 12:10 AM

God I hate this stupid trend of writers subverting our expectations. It's been proven so many times that they can't handle it and only ends up destroying the story and making people revolt against it because it's dumb.

Obviously it's done because most stories are predictable and they want to Wow the audience, but they always fail because their great moment of wowing the audience is stupid and it almost always destroys what people loved about the story or characters.

For those who don't know what subverting expectations means, it's just doing something that the audience wasn't expecting.

My favorite show did this and it ended up so badly that the show got cancelled. The people who continue to this don't get it. The audience does want to be subverted in some cases but not always and when they want to be subverted they want to be pleasantly subverted in a way that it aligns with what they were expecting in the first place.

 

That's the idea behind subversion is that you want to give someone what they want and at the same time giving them something they weren't expecting. However what they weren't expecting still has to be in lines with what they want.

What does piss me off are the hardcore GOT fans that says Lord of the Rings is for babies, or it sends them to sleep because there is no blood in the films or books.

 

But many other GOT fans are now watching Lord of the Rings because at least the ending is better.



#27428 Nostradamus

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 12:41 AM

What does piss me off are the hardcore GOT fans that says Lord of the Rings is for babies, or it sends them to sleep because there is no blood in the films or books.

 

But many other GOT fans are now watching Lord of the Rings because at least the ending is better.

All it took was a horrible season to change their minds. XD


                         CZSn9hA.jpg
 
Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.


#27429 ultranx

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 02:36 AM

the only upcoming live action anime movie I think even remotely has a chance of success is the new gundam movie, since its got legendary pictures, who made pacific rim, working on it, and sunrise has full control of the movie so that they don't screw it up. also don't know if anyone heard, but an old editor of toriyama came out with a reason dragon ball evolution turned out so bad. apparently hollywood has this clause where they expect a series owner to pay $45 million just to have a say in what happens with the movie, and not only could the editors and toriyama not afford that much, but hollywood tricked them and never told them about the clause and they found out afterwards, hence why toriyama despises the movie so much.


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#27430 jak123

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 04:29 AM

the only upcoming live action anime movie I think even remotely has a chance of success is the new gundam movie, since its got legendary pictures, who made pacific rim, working on it, and sunrise has full control of the movie so that they don't screw it up. also don't know if anyone heard, but an old editor of toriyama came out with a reason dragon ball evolution turned out so bad. apparently hollywood has this clause where they expect a series owner to pay $45 million just to have a say in what happens with the movie, and not only could the editors and toriyama not afford that much, but hollywood tricked them and never told them about the clause and they found out afterwards, hence why toriyama despises the movie so much.

Ugh, I don't want Hollywood to touch any sort of anime. The only movie that's been good was the All You Need is Kill adaptation (Edge of Tomorrow). Like they are doing a Cowboy Bebop show and I just know it's gonna be awful.



#27431 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 06:41 AM

God I hate this stupid trend of writers subverting our expectations. It's been proven so many times that they can't handle it and only ends up destroying the story and making people revolt against it because it's dumb.

Obviously it's done because most stories are predictable and they want to Wow the audience, but they always fail because their great moment of wowing the audience is stupid and it almost always destroys what people loved about the story or characters.

For those who don't know what subverting expectations means, it's just doing something that the audience wasn't expecting.

My favorite show did this and it ended up so badly that the show got cancelled. The people who continue to this don't get it. The audience does want to be subverted in some cases but not always and when they want to be subverted they want to be pleasantly subverted in a way that it aligns with what they were expecting in the first place.

 

That's the idea behind subversion is that you want to give someone what they want and at the same time giving them something they weren't expecting. However what they weren't expecting still has to be in lines with what they want.

 

Yeah, no kidding. Look at freakin' How I Met Your Mother and how the ending subverted all expectations and also kinda spat into the face of what we were told.



#27432 Phantom_999

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 11:51 AM

All it took was a horrible season to change their minds. XD

 
Hey look at it this way. All it would take NH fans to try tear Kishi limb from limb is to make NaruSaku happen! :zaru: And then they will call the entire Naruto franchise "Satan's writing from hell" :lmao: Just saying ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Phantom_999, 27 May 2019 - 04:35 PM.

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#27433 Phantom_999

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 05:15 PM

God I hate this stupid trend of writers subverting our expectations. It's been proven so many times that they can't handle it and only ends up destroying the story and making people revolt against it because it's dumb.
Obviously it's done because most stories are predictable and they want to Wow the audience, but they always fail because their great moment of wowing the audience is stupid and it almost always destroys what people loved about the story or characters.
For those who don't know what subverting expectations means, it's just doing something that the audience wasn't expecting.
My favorite show did this and it ended up so badly that the show got cancelled. The people who continue to this don't get it. The audience does want to be subverted in some cases but not always and when they want to be subverted they want to be pleasantly subverted in a way that it aligns with what they were expecting in the first place.
 
That's the idea behind subversion is that you want to give someone what they want and at the same time giving them something they weren't expecting. However what they weren't expecting still has to be in lines with what they want.

Do you know what they call subverting audience expectations, with no buildup, foreshadowing or any literary value whatsoever except for shock value? An @$$pull. you see it well enough and complained about well enough in anime, graphic novels (manga especially), comic books, etc. What makes it a real kick in the teeth is if an audience follows that story for years on end and then is given the biggest "EFF you  bird flipping in their face". We can all speak from personal experience here, can't we? :dry:  Even if that is not the author's/creator of that content's intent, that is the sort of reaction that they will create without any kind of foresight or care put into the decision, not to mention how the audiences will react.
 
Subverting audience expectations in a meaningful and positive manner ultimately is a long and planned out process. You want to make a character death impact the story? the audience has to experience the journey with that character and connect with them, not to mention that character must have many sympathetic traits. A trap I find that many writers fall into is that they write character deaths for the sake of being "dark and edgy" and full of cynicism. Or just letting a villain win for the sake of shock value. That is the WRONG way to go about subverting audience expectations to my experience. Another god-awful use of subverting audience expectations is NOT GIVING proper explanation in the narrative itself as to why a specific plot point happened. NH and SS anyone? Plot points and writing decisions need to happen for a reason that can be explained in the story itself. Failing to do otherwise means that you don't care what your audience thinks of your personal feelings and biases, you are "caught with your pants downs" (you NEVER PLANNED IT), or you are deliberately creating controversy for one reason or another. I imagine GOT''s ending falls into one of those categories.
 
ultimately agreed. Subverting audience expectations is NOT a good thing if there is no meaning and thought process put into it. It is like I always say about cliches? What makes a story a cliche? why is it a cliche? It's been done before right? but if it is STILL Popular, doesn't that mean that it does still speak to the audience? and if it still speaks to such a large audience does that make it a "bad thing"? A lot  of so-called "elite critics" never seem to consider this when they spew the word "cliche and overdone" every 5 minutes. It something that I have always taken issue with, especially when they have these effing double standards which is all the time, by the way.


Edited by Phantom_999, 02 June 2019 - 02:02 PM.

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#27434 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 05:56 PM

I'd suggest checking out Digibro's analysis on The Asterisk War and his breakdown of cliches in part 4, terrible protagonists in part 7, the breakdown of Kirin in part 10 (perfect comparison to Hinatatas), and especially the comparison to Chivalry of a Failed Knight in Parts 11 and 12, and how despite seeming almost exactly the same on the surface, some slight differences makes Chivalry so much better (not great overall, but much better than Asterisk). The whole thing is an interesting watch.

https://www.youtube....4AeRrmncbD6Trvc


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#27435 ultranx

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 12:06 AM

Ugh, I don't want Hollywood to touch any sort of anime. The only movie that's been good was the All You Need is Kill adaptation (Edge of Tomorrow). Like they are doing a Cowboy Bebop show and I just know it's gonna be awful.

I feel ya there. honestly the main only reason I have my hopes up for gundam is the fact sunrise only agreed to the movie if they were given full control, no full control, no movie, sunrise even went as far as to get feedback from the fans on what to do. they want it as true to the anime themes as possible. that and they using legendary pictures to make it, the makers of pacific rim, are the only reasons I have hopes for the movie.

other than that I don't care for any live action adaptation of anime or video games if its by hollyweird.


Edited by ultranx, 28 May 2019 - 12:11 AM.

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#27436 totherpage95

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 01:55 AM

It's like the old saying "stick the landing" I guess endings are hard for writers 



#27437 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 03:35 AM

It's like the old saying "stick the landing" I guess endings are hard for writers 

 

Not all the time, but a lot of the time it feels like it.



#27438 KClaws_2

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 10:12 AM

 

 

The answer is still the same. They are stuck with having to follow what Kishimoto wrote for them. They can't contradict that without breaking their narrative. Remember this is the story Kishimoto always wanted to happen after Naruto. The end pairing Kishimoto chosen were nH/SS. NS wasn't a romantic pairing. So on and so forth. Its afterwards (after the gaiden for SS, and after the chunin exam for nH) they can try and go about changing it, but they still have to work from their initial position. Which from what I understand is what they are trying to do..they just are failing at it in our eyes, and some of their fans'. 

Honestly, it's not like Kishimoto gave them much to work with. He didn't bother writing the Last and let someone else do it, which it seems didn't turn out so good. He refuses to give SS an explanation, which is odd since I heard that between the two in Japan SS is the more popular. The only new generation antagonists he gives them are more Uchihas and Ootsuki people. Naruto "supposedly" achieved his goal of piece. I feel like he was subtly trying to tell them "Leave this alone while you can".

Honestly, they could have just went on to do their own thing. It's not unprecedented; many adaptations of manga differ from the source material in some way or another. On occasion some series get remade (Astroboy got rebooted in the 80s and 00s) or get alternate universes when the original story just stops (Gundam, Fate)

 

 

 

Oh, Masashi didn't write that. That was someone else. Remember, there was an interview with the writer who admitted he/she didn't do research on the manga and wanted to write about the topic of love for The Last.

It's my understanding he supervised the script, saying he made them change it over a dozen times and felt like a tyrant doing so. 

 

Given what little we know of the timeline, we know for sure the Last was rushed into production and the director probably just didn't have the time to look at the source material (even though he probably wanted to)

 

Is that why a character who had a very mature view and understanding of love at the end of part 1, suddenly turned into Goku for the movie. It’s the worst part of the movie for that reason. One reason Naruto was so likeable was because he was genuinely a nice guy. He put her happiness ahead of his own even at the expense of his own. These were some of his best moments and the last crapped all over it when this change.

Turning him into Goku is a compliment; they made him a sociopath with that rivalry BS and unwittingly put NHs relationship in a rather questionable position.

 

God I hate this stupid trend of writers subverting our expectations. It's been proven so many times that they can't handle it and only ends up destroying the story and making people revolt against it because it's dumb.

Obviously it's done because most stories are predictable and they want to Wow the audience, but they always fail because their great moment of wowing the audience is stupid and it almost always destroys what people loved about the story or characters.

For those who don't know what subverting expectations means, it's just doing something that the audience wasn't expecting.

My favorite show did this and it ended up so badly that the show got cancelled. The people who continue to this don't get it. The audience does want to be subverted in some cases but not always and when they want to be subverted they want to be pleasantly subverted in a way that it aligns with what they were expecting in the first place.

 

That's the idea behind subversion is that you want to give someone what they want and at the same time giving them something they weren't expecting. However what they weren't expecting still has to be in lines with what they want.

I'm noticing a trend of writers being so afraid of being cliche or predictable that they do something unexpected JUST to avoid the cliches. Cliches are more than expectations: they're literally the building blocks to stories. Sure, you can bend established rules of fiction a bit, but you can't break them to the point where it defies the logic of the story. Cliches are not something to be avoided, but to be experimented on. You just have to go "Okay, this has been done before. What can I do to make my take on this trope unique?"

 

Here's a great video comparing The Last Jedi with Infinity War, how one subverted expectations badly and how another did it correctly

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=uiXk6mEM_tU

 

It's like the old saying "stick the landing" I guess endings are hard for writers 

The thing is we as the audience always latch onto these unrealistically good endings and that in turn seems to scare writers into trying too hard to meet or subvert our expectations. They should just stick with what they planned to do. It doesn't matter if we "know" what's going to happen, you make it fun by making it more fun than we expected it to be, even if the narrative aligns with our expectations.



#27439 Nostradamus

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 10:19 PM

Do you know what they call subverting audience expectations, with no buildup, foreshadowing or any literary value whatsoever except for shock value? An @$$pull. you see it well enough and complained about well enough in anime, graphic novels (manga especially), comic books, etc. What makes it a real kick in the teeth is if an audience follows that story for years on end and then is given the biggest "EFF you  bird flipping in their face". We can all speak from personal experience here, can't we? :dry:  Even if that is not the author's/creator of that content's intent, that is the sort of reaction that they will create without any kind of foresight or care put into the decision, not to mention how the audiences will react.
 
Subverting audience expectations in a meaningful and positive manner ultimately is a long and planned out process. You want to make a character death impact the story? the audience has to experience the journey with that character and connect with them, not to mention that character must have many sympathetic traits. A trap I find that many writers fall into is that they write character deaths for the sake of being "dark and edgy" and full of cynicism. Or just letting a villain win for the sake of shock value. That is the WRONG way to go about subverting audience expectations to my experience. Another god-awful use of subverting audience expectations is NOT GIVING proper explanation in the narrative itself as to why a specific plot point happened. NH and SS anyone? Plot points and writing decisions need to happen for a reason that can be explained in the story itself. Failing to do otherwise means that you don't care what your audience thinks of your personal feelings and biases, you are "caught with your pants downs" (you NEVER PLANNED IT), or you are deliberately creating controversy for one reason or another. I imagine GOT''s ending falls into one of those categories.
 
ultimately agreed. Subverting audience expectations is NOT a good thing if there is no meaning and thought process put into it. It is like I always say about cliches? What makes a story a cliche? why is it a cliche? It's been done before right? but if it is STILL Popular, doesn't that mean that it does still speak to the audience? and if it still speaks to such a large audience does that make it a "bad thing"? A lot  of so-called "elite critics" never seem to consider this when they spew the word "cliche and overdone" every 5 minutes. It something that I have always taken issue with, especially when they have these effing double standards which is all the time, by the way.

While I agree overall with what you said, I can't put subverting expectations and arsepulls in the same category. Arsepulls are just moments done to let's say defeat a villain who was said that can't be defeated by using conventional ways so in order to defeat him, the writer pulls out an arsepull that was never hinted at or developed. Ultimately it serves a purpose to the story, it's not a good thing to do so, but at least it had a reason to exist.

Subverting expectations is just doing something, whatever it is just to surprise the audience. And most of the time not in good way.

It's not done to serve a purpose in the story, it's done just to surprise you the reader/viewer.

I don't know where this thing started but it needs to stop. So far all it's ever done is ruin beloved series.

Stories have rules, don't break them. If you want to wow the audience, write a better story. Don't worry about being cliche or predictable.


                         CZSn9hA.jpg
 
Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.


#27440 NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 10:35 PM

Hey... this is off topic but it's been a rough week for me. My dad died in a car crash and... well I still can't believe it happened and I will never get over it but... I'll pull through. I'm still gonna be the same person I was before because that's what he would've wanted and I just wanna thank you guys for being my friends even though we never physically met. God bless you all.


Edited by NaruSaku fan in Kentucky, 10 June 2019 - 03:00 AM.

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