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#1 KnS

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:01 PM

I thought this article was thought-provoking for a number of reasons.

 

The whole kawaii thing is particularly interesting.  I mean, from my perspective it's the primary reason behind Hinata's otherwise incomprehensible popularity.    

 

I can see why that type of character would figure in explicit manga -- cute, kittenish, naive, weak, helpless, desperate to please, easy to dominate.  It's those very qualities in Hinata that irritate me so much about her characterization, and leave me feeling sick.

 

Even a manga such as Naruto is not free of the kawaii obsession, and although Kishimoto writes a clean story there is an element in Hinata's characterization that suffers by association.

 

Just my opinion.


Edited by KnS, 06 July 2014 - 10:01 PM.


#2 Branden

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:16 AM

Well I don't live in Japan so I don't know how big of a problem this is but before any decisions are made regarding the regulation of pornographic drawings there should be an investigation done to see when this all started and what could have caused it to become widespread. Further investigations should be done to see if the increase in sales of these hentai manga has any correlation with a possible increase in child molestation. The data gathered will help whoever it is that makes these laws decide an appropriate action to be taken if any is necessary at all.

 

Like I said before though, I don't live in Japan. For all I know Japan's politicians could be in the pocket of the anime industry and even if changes to the laws were necessary they may not happen at all. I just hope that the most innocent party (which in this case would be children) are protected as a priority. I don't know how that would be done or if it's even an issue at the moment but I highly doubt that jailtime and huge fines are a good way to promote a healthier culture.


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#3 Iwantbuns

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 02:20 AM

Cuteness and "innocence" in girls is what attracts men. Hinata's cute, innocent, and pretty much a pushover. She's what people could call an easily 'taintable' girl. She doesn't react harshly to pervertedness, except maybe a blush and a disapproving glance. But that being said, I don't think Kishi is trying to portray a girl made for sex - however it could be implied.

 

Hinata rarely thinks of herself and only wants the best for others. This causes her to be weak, and lacking in self-development. She has pretty big boobs, but always tries to cover it up. Probably not because she's ashamed of her body, but more that she's a modest girl at heart. This kind of implies that she'd actually steer away from the idea of sex, thus giving her that "innocent" act.

 

Hinata's different from all the other girls. She's not clingy or overly reactive about things. She has good thoughts and tries to think as positively as she can, even when life isn't so good for her. She's just overall a nice girl.

 

People could be attracted to her. But they could also just like her for her personality in general. Idk that's my opinion...


tumblr_inline_miqmooGYSM1qz4rgp.gif

 

Why do people NOT ship these two? I just don't get it.

Probably cause they hate Sakura. When she's probably the most developed female character in the whole show.

I respect Hinata, but Sakura deserves some too.


#4 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:15 AM

I really have a mixed opinion regarding this article-whether they should ban this type of manga or not.

On one hand if these pedophiles could relieve themselves with the comics instead of actual young children, that might decrease the crime against them.

On the other hand, these mangas are creating a boom of kawaii, submissive, weak girls that it could be increasing the number of pedophiles in the first place. It goes so far to the point that several real life men prefer comic book girls to strong opinionated females in real life and become the cause of declining marriage rates. The case is extremely strong with 2ch users or NEET who cannot fit into society and naturally have been rejected from real life girls. This would lead them to find sanctuary in Hinata-type girls. (Female characters like Sakura might resemble the girls of high caste in school, the way she exposes her legs, speak confidently, and shuts down guys. The type of girls who don't even glance at the low castes such as 2ch users) I have a friend who hides the fact that he is a 2ch user, and he got himself a girlfriend. Well, the girl dumped him for another guy and now he spends his time watching those submissive anime girls and insisting 2D is better than 3D, and bashing real life females or successful cool guys on the internet.
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#5 KonaKonaFan

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:09 AM

Cuteness and "innocence" in girls is what attracts men. 

 

This really seems like an odd blanket statement to make, at least to me. In most countries, I would imagine that maturity would be valued over innocence or youthfulness with men (to clarify, not boys. Men.) Can actual (female luvin') men confirm this for me? Would you rather date a woman who acts like a child or a woman who acts her age? 


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#6 questdrivencollie

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:09 AM

This is a tough one...

I'm in no way a supporter of this type of manga, but my political philosophy (socially speaking) can be summed up as "if it isn't hurting anyone or infringing on their rights, then the government should KTFO".

Child porn is a problem, but in the case of drawn characters no actual child is involved.

On the other hand, this type of manga existing certainly isn't helping the problem.


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#7 Codus N

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 02:05 PM

Well I don't live in Japan so I don't know how big of a problem this is but before any decisions are made regarding the regulation of pornographic drawings there should be an investigation done to see when this all started and what could have caused it to become widespread. Further investigations should be done to see if the increase in sales of these hentai manga has any correlation with a possible increase in child molestation. The data gathered will help whoever it is that makes these laws decide an appropriate action to be taken if any is necessary at all.
 
Like I said before though, I don't live in Japan. For all I know Japan's politicians could be in the pocket of the anime industry and even if changes to the laws were necessary they may not happen at all. I just hope that the most innocent party (which in this case would be children) are protected as a priority. I don't know how that would be done or if it's even an issue at the moment but I highly doubt that jailtime and huge fines are a good way to promote a healthier culture.

 
 
I agree with this. A law protecting children from sexual predators is a must. But the problem is, how do we set a standard alongside the existing lolicon subculture? this is the real question regarding the anti-lolicon laws in place that needs to be addressed. We can't really make generalizations without a reasonable basis. 
 

I really have a mixed opinion regarding this article-whether they should ban this type of manga or not.

On one hand if these pedophiles could relieve themselves with the comics instead of actual young children, that might decrease the crime against them.

On the other hand, these mangas are creating a boom of kawaii, submissive, weak girls that it could be increasing the number of pedophiles in the first place. It goes so far to the point that several real life men prefer comic book girls to strong opinionated females in real life and become the cause of declining marriage rates. The case is extremely strong with 2ch users or NEET who cannot fit into society and naturally have been rejected from real life girls. This would lead them to find sanctuary in Hinata-type girls. (Female characters like Sakura might resemble the girls of high caste in school, the way she exposes her legs, speak confidently, and shuts down guys. The type of girls who don't even glance at the low castes such as 2ch users) I have a friend who hides the fact that he is a 2ch user, and he got himself a girlfriend. Well, the girl dumped him for another guy and now he spends his time watching those submissive anime girls and insisting 2D is better than 3D, and bashing real life females or successful cool guys on the internet.

 
I've actually made a huge-ass LAP about this on Tumblr. You can have a read here:
 
http://codus21.tumbl...imes-fairy-tail 
 
Also, here's the important parts I'm highlighting.
 

"I’d actually separate being a pedophile and a lolicon as two separate things......."
 
"Pedophiles are an official term classified in psychiatry as someone whose sexual orientation is geared towards kids under the age of 13 (15, in some cases). Lolicon, however is mostly a term coined by otakus in Japan for artwork depicting, cute but provocative little girls. Fans of these artwork were later dubbed as “lolicon” themselves".
 
"If I was a legal expert in Japan, I’d actually propose that the 2 terms are different. One is actually a criminally offensive person. One isn’t and is simply a fan of fictionalized work depicting provocative little girls and has not committed a criminal offense towards little girls."

 

"......this distinction could actually go a long way for otakus in Japan with their social stigmas. If this distinction can be made for them, then all the better for them to escape a rather unfortunate stigma".

 

".......a case in a tv/drama series where they catch a suspected pedophile and find his stash of pictures of little girls in age-appropriate bathing suits (taken from ads). But it was proven that he wasn’t the guy they were after. But nevertheless, I’m sure the audience thought of his character as a criminal for possessing that stash of his.

 

That is wrong. Simply possessing those pics where the models are consensual (and the photo shoots are merely commercial for products) does not make one a willing participation in a sexually abusive activity. The character was a criminal in that he was actually stalking someone (which is how the police caught wind of his scent in the first place) underage. This is the guy I’d classify as a “lolicon.” But when he decided to stalk a little girl, he entered the pedophile territory."

 

 

Welp, this is my LO (legal opinion) on the whole lolicon business in Japan. In general, I agree with my lecturer that you can't arrest someone simply for being a "pedophile" without a criminal offense existing. So, if Japan wants to establish an anti-lolicon law, they need to set a clear, objective legal standard for the specific criminal offense.

 

Also, from a cultural standpoint, it's really Japan's society at fault. Now, I may not live in Japan, but from what I get from reading a couple of seinen mangas, Japanese youth seems to be extremely pressured by the family/parents to succeed. A core weakness in Japanese society (and Asia, in general) from my own perceiving is that there's not a strong enough family values. Most times, when their children fail, they just give up so easily and doesn't try to push their children to succeed in other areas.

 

Instead, they just stick to what they think works. When in reality, not all of them can be fitted into one package. This is also a problem I have with my parents as well.      

 

I could be entirely wrong about all this, so i'd like to hear it from you. Also, I'm not exactly the guy you guys should take my words as gospel from the legal perspective on things. You might want to ask Nate about that.

 

Also, I'll be quite frank. I'd rather jack off to lolicon stuff than throw myself in jail. It ain't worth it.  


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#8 Iwantbuns

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 06:46 PM

This really seems like an odd blanket statement to make, at least to me. In most countries, I would imagine that maturity would be valued over innocence or youthfulness with men (to clarify, not boys. Men.) Can actual (female luvin') men confirm this for me? Would you rather date a woman who acts like a child or a woman who acts her age? 

 

There are guys that want a girl that's submissive and childish, so that they can dominate them. I know it sounds wrong, but there are guys that do think like this - especially when it comes to, well, sex.


tumblr_inline_miqmooGYSM1qz4rgp.gif

 

Why do people NOT ship these two? I just don't get it.

Probably cause they hate Sakura. When she's probably the most developed female character in the whole show.

I respect Hinata, but Sakura deserves some too.


#9 sushi.

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 07:23 PM

KnS, I think you have a point about Hinata, I got that creepy vibe when I watched comments and videos about Hinata on YT. I am not bothered by how Kishi handled her on this subject, but I think she is definitely that kind of character, So I probably would be if she was written by, say Kubo. The way he portrayed Orihime on the recent cover is a very blunt way to objectify a woman's body, regardless of age. (And it isn't Orihime's fault!) It just makes it worse that she is 15, but I don't think it is OK even if the women are of age.

I really have a mixed opinion regarding this article-whether they should ban this type of manga or not.

On one hand if these pedophiles could relieve themselves with the comics instead of actual young children, that might decrease the crime against them.

On the other hand, these mangas are creating a boom of kawaii, submissive, weak girls that it could be increasing the number of pedophiles in the first place. It goes so far to the point that several real life men prefer comic book girls to strong opinionated females in real life and become the cause of declining marriage rates. The case is extremely strong with 2ch users or NEET who cannot fit into society and naturally have been rejected from real life girls. This would lead them to find sanctuary in Hinata-type girls. (Female characters like Sakura might resemble the girls of high caste in school, the way she exposes her legs, speak confidently, and shuts down guys. The type of girls who don't even glance at the low castes such as 2ch users) I have a friend who hides the fact that he is a 2ch user, and he got himself a girlfriend. Well, the girl dumped him for another guy and now he spends his time watching those submissive anime girls and insisting 2D is better than 3D, and bashing real life females or successful cool guys on the internet.

I disagree. I think such explicit mangas contribute to normalizing the violence against children, and women too. Throwing them a bone will not tell them how this is wrong, or dismantle the male dominance. I agree with your second paragraph tho, and I find the submissiveness very problematic. There is this lack of agency they have, and they do like them because can "do what they want with them". It's like instead of being written as human beings, they are designed for the male audience and sexual predators.

 

Also, even if I'm glad Kishi does not take part in this, I remember I was quite provoked by Hinata's little moment in Sakura's RtN episode. Hinata does not like those kinds of clothes, and she was clearly uncomfortable in that dress/kimono. Her uncomfortableness was not sexy.

 

Edit; I'd also like to point out that while I'm not sure if this new ban will help at all. However, something that infuriates me daily is that while men buy mangas and other magazines with halfnaked girls, teenage students are being sent home for simply showing their legs, a girl in a dress will get blamed for her own sexual assault, etc. (often by the same men). That's sends a really bad message, and girls should not be denied the right to wear what they want.


Edited by sushi., 07 July 2014 - 11:04 PM.

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#10 Nate River

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:50 PM

I agree with this. A law protecting children from sexual predators is a must. But the problem is, how do we set a standard alongside the existing lolicon subculture? this is the real question regarding the anti-lolicon laws in place that needs to be addressed. We can't really make generalizations without a reasonable basis. 
 
 
I've actually made a huge-ass LAP about this on Tumblr. You can have a read here:
 
http://codus21.tumbl...imes-fairy-tail 
 
Also, here's the important parts I'm highlighting.
 
 
Welp, this is my LO (legal opinion) on the whole lolicon business in Japan. In general, I agree with my lecturer that you can't arrest someone simply for being a "pedophile" without a criminal offense existing. So, if Japan wants to establish an anti-lolicon law, they need to set a clear, objective legal standard for the specific criminal offense.
 
Also, from a cultural standpoint, it's really Japan's society at fault. Now, I may not live in Japan, but from what I get from reading a couple of seinen mangas, Japanese youth seems to be extremely pressured by the family/parents to succeed. A core weakness in Japanese society (and Asia, in general) from my own perceiving is that there's not a strong enough family values. Most times, when their children fail, they just give up so easily and doesn't try to push their children to succeed in other areas.
 
Instead, they just stick to what they think works. When in reality, not all of them can be fitted into one package. This is also a problem I have with my parents as well.      
 
I could be entirely wrong about all this, so i'd like to hear it from you. Also, I'm not exactly the guy you guys should take my words as gospel from the legal perspective on things. You might want to ask Nate about that.
 
Also, I'll be quite frank. I'd rather jack off to lolicon stuff than throw myself in jail. It ain't worth it.


Without knowing anything about Japanese law I really cannot offer one.

The US had a law that would have made those illegal, but it crashed and burned years ago.

See Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition.

http://en.wikipedia....peech_Coalition

I think the risk in any of those laws if how you write them without taking a bunch of other stuff with it. Perhaps that not a problem under Japanese law, but it's one of the reasons it failed in the United States. It's not unusual for laws that prohibit unprotected speech to be tossed because in doing so they take protected speech with it.

#11 K9ofChaos

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:45 PM

The Comic Book Legal Defense Fund already pointed out that while this law will prevent harm to actual minors, extending that law to drawn pornography goes against the idea of Freedom of Speech. Blaming drawn porn for pedophilia is no different from blaming mass shootings on violent video games. It's an easy scapegoat. I find loli/shota disgusting, but I don't support banning something for reasons that boil down to "it's icky". Because free speech/expression applies to taboo subjects as well.

 

Here's a link for anyone whose interested in reading:

 

http://cbldf.org/201...anga-and-anime/

 

Also, yeah, I can see how this relates to Hinata's appeal. She does embody the concept of moe and kawaii after all.

 

Those are my two cents, and that's all I'm gonna say on this matter.



#12 KonaKonaFan

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 01:21 AM

 

There are guys that want a girl that's submissive and childish, so that they can dominate them. I know it sounds wrong, but there are guys that do think like this - especially when it comes to, well, sex.

 

Yeah, I mean, everyone has their kinks, and that's OK as long as everything's consensual, but you said that guys in general prefer childishness and submissiveness, and I never thought about it that way.


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#13 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 10:07 AM

I agree with this. A law protecting children from sexual predators is a must. But the problem is, how do we set a standard alongside the existing lolicon subculture? this is the real question regarding the anti-lolicon laws in place that needs to be addressed. We can't really make generalizations without a reasonable basis. 
 

 
I've actually made a huge-ass LAP about this on Tumblr. You can have a read here:
 http://codus21.tumbl...imes-fairy-tail 
 
Also, here's the important parts I'm highlighting.
 

 
Welp, this is my LO (legal opinion) on the whole lolicon business in Japan. In general, I agree with my lecturer that you can't arrest someone simply for being a "pedophile" without a criminal offense existing. So, if Japan wants to establish an anti-lolicon law, they need to set a clear, objective legal standard for the specific criminal offense.
 
Also, from a cultural standpoint, it's really Japan's society at fault. Now, I may not live in Japan, but from what I get from reading a couple of seinen mangas, Japanese youth seems to be extremely pressured by the family/parents to succeed. A core weakness in Japanese society (and Asia, in general) from my own perceiving is that there's not a strong enough family values. Most times, when their children fail, they just give up so easily and doesn't try to push their children to succeed in other areas.
 
Instead, they just stick to what they think works. When in reality, not all of them can be fitted into one package. This is also a problem I have with my parents as well.      
 
I could be entirely wrong about all this, so i'd like to hear it from you. Also, I'm not exactly the guy you guys should take my words as gospel from the legal perspective on things. You might want to ask Nate about that.
 
Also, I'll be quite frank. I'd rather jack off to lolicon stuff than throw myself in jail. It ain't worth it.

  
Lolicon is short for Lolita complex. And Lolita comes from the Vladimir Nabokov's best selling book. As you say, Lolita is used as an expression for guys that like small girls. It doesn't act on it, and pedophilia are used to express guys that acts to have sexual interaction with them.

I also agree that we can't restrict the people from having a vivid imagination. If we restrict the Lolicon's, what are we going to do about the hidden psychopaths? Or even the authors who writes gore murder for entertainment purposes? Are we going to arrest them too? What about researchers who have these materials to conduct a research? What is the line for people deserving of arrest and people that are not? It's okay to read and possess a book about murder but not about pedophilia? If they permit this law, there is going to be a lot of double standards.

Also what is it that you are blaming on Japanese culture? The Lolicon culture? The crimes against young girls?

I disagree. I think such explicit mangas contribute to normalizing the violence against children, and women too. Throwing them a bone will not tell them how this is wrong, or dismantle the male dominance. I agree with your second paragraph tho, and I find the submissiveness very problematic. There is this lack of agency they have, and they do like them because can "do what they want with them". It's like instead of being written as human beings, they are designed for the male audience and sexual predators.
 
Also, even if I'm glad Kishi does not take part in this, I remember I was quite provoked by Hinata's little moment in Sakura's RtN episode. Hinata does not like those kinds of clothes, and she was clearly uncomfortable in that dress/kimono. Her uncomfortableness was not sexy.
 
Edit; I'd also like to point out that while I'm not sure if this new ban will help at all. However, something that infuriates me daily is that while men buy mangas and other magazines with halfnaked girls, teenage students are being sent home for simply showing their legs, a girl in a dress will get blamed for her own sexual assault, etc. (often by the same men). That's sends a really bad message, and girls should not be denied the right to wear what they want.

Regarding the first sentence, with that logic the society should also ban crime dramas, movies, games or comics because these explicit content of murdering people can contribute to normalizing the violence against citizens. I don't see how these manga with small girls will become the only exception. Murder, rape, pedophile are all morally unacceptable in society and if we ban one, we should ban the others all the same.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 08 July 2014 - 10:12 AM.

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#14 Codus N

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 05:30 PM

Without knowing anything about Japanese law I really cannot offer one.

The US had a law that would have made those illegal, but it crashed and burned years ago.

See Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition.

http://en.wikipedia....peech_Coalition

I think the risk in any of those laws if how you write them without taking a bunch of other stuff with it. Perhaps that not a problem under Japanese law, but it's one of the reasons it failed in the United States. It's not unusual for laws that prohibit unprotected speech to be tossed because in doing so they take protected speech with it.

 

That's pretty much about it. That's one of the reasons why this anti-lolicon law isn't really feasible at the moment. I do however, try to make a tiny break-through by showing a distinction between lolicons and pedophiles since that is one of the major problems about this matter.

 

Lolicon has become a pop culture in Japan, but that in turn, allowed the media to spin it into something negative. Now there is one case I know in Japan where somebody was arrested for being a suspected child murder and just so "happens" to have some lolicon stash. But the real problem here is, the Japanese media has labelled him as a "lolicon." The main reason is simple: It's because it's so easy to remember and "rings nicely" in the head. (Of course, I think I'm remembering wrong, though.) What the Japanese media fails to do is making the correct distinction.

 

The case was mentioned here:

 

http://www.animenews...ssession/.75716          

 

But anyways, on to the question I wanted to ask: I know that you know zilch about Japanese law (obviously), but what I was hoping for was another take on my views. Do you have a more general opinion from a legal perspective about this and the points I laid out? I think that even without knowledge of Japanese law, we can still discuss in a more generalized discussion from a legal perspective.

     

  
Lolicon is short for Lolita complex. And Lolita comes from the Vladimir Nabokov's best selling book. As you say, Lolita is used as an expression for guys that like small girls. It doesn't act on it, and pedophilia are used to express guys that acts to have sexual interaction with them.

I also agree that we can't restrict the people from having a vivid imagination. If we restrict the Lolicon's, what are we going to do about the hidden psychopaths? Or even the authors who writes gore murder for entertainment purposes? Are we going to arrest them too? What about researchers who have these materials to conduct a research? What is the line for people deserving of arrest and people that are not? It's okay to read and possess a book about murder but not about pedophilia? If they permit this law, there is going to be a lot of double standards.

Also what is it that you are blaming on Japanese culture? The Lolicon culture? The crimes against young girls?

Regarding the first sentence, with that logic the society should also ban crime dramas, movies, games or comics because these explicit content of murdering people can contribute to normalizing the violence against citizens. I don't see how these manga with small girls will become the only exception. Murder, rape, pedophile are all morally unacceptable in society and if we ban one, we should ban the others all the same.

 

Ah sorry. I should've known that I wasn't getting my point across very well.

 

Anyways, I think we both know that in Asian cultures, families (specifically parents) put more emphasis on family prestige and education than one child's skills and spiritual needs. It's kind of understandable, because most parents nowadays lived during the harsh times of the 70s-80s when Asia's economy was still struggling to make its mark in the world. That's why they want their kids to succeed better than them. While they do have the best of their kids' interests at heart, the reality is that they're forcing their own dreams and visions of a "perfect child", blocking off the child's other possible potentials. This is what's the major reason in the rise of Hikikomoris in Japan.

 

What Asian parents often think is that success is measured by grades and education, not their skills. This backfires in the worst way imaginable, leading their kids to become overburdened with stress, and when they fail something, it leads to a psychological breakdown.

 

For Silver Spoon readers, Hachiken is a prime example of this social phenomena. It's a good thing that he was able to run away from home, start over anew with his new high school friends and not even mentioning landing a local sweetheart to boot :wink: .     

 

This is what Japanese (adult) society have failed to realize. They believe the rise of Hikikomoris is due to their own faults, not even realizing that they themselves are at fault for putting an unreasonable amount of pressure on them in the first place. This is what I was getting at. 

 

Also, another point I'd like to make with the bolded: This would also extend to their private sexual activities. I mean, no one should have the right to control whether someone wants to jack off from watching porn. The US has a perfectly legal porn business running, no? No one should be trying to control whether someone is buying porn or whatnot because it is an act already protected by the laws in place (unless you're a minor, of course). What happens in the living room with that CD running stays in the living room.

 

Same thing with the lolicon business. No one should have the right to control whether an individual is jacking off to lolicon stuff. So long as it STAYS there. 

 

Should an anti-lolicon law be passed, I have no doubt it will be faulty and full of holes with broad meanings/interpretations hence, why it is not feasible at the moment, as I've said before. One solution I can think of is the establishment of a specialized board/panel which has the authority to review H-mangas/doujins submitted to them. This specialized panel should be filled with a mix of manga/literature experts and legal experts So as to gain an impartial review on the manga submitted.             


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#15 sushi.

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:00 PM

Regarding the first sentence, with that logic the society should also ban crime dramas, movies, games or comics because these explicit content of murdering people can contribute to normalizing the violence against citizens. I don't see how these manga with small girls will become the only exception. Murder, rape, pedophile are all morally unacceptable in society and if we ban one, we should ban the others all the same.

No. The examples you bring up don't have the same effect on the audience, especially since they're portrayed in different ways. When you watch a murder on TV, it is portrayed as something bad. ASoIaF has so much violence in it, yet it promotes anti-war/violence/revenge. That's not the case right now. You want to throw pedophiles a bone to keep them in control, and I disagree with that method. That does not mean I want to ban explicit mangas, I thought I made it clear in my post I'm not sure if it'll solve anything.


Edited by sushi., 08 July 2014 - 08:11 PM.

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#16 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:34 PM

@Codus
Since I'm on my phone I'll reply to you later.

No. The examples you bring up don't have the same effect on the audience, especially since they're portrayed in different ways. When you watch a murder on TV, it is portrayed as something bad. ASoIaF has so much violence in it, yet it promotes anti-war/violence/revenge. That's not the case right now. You want to throw pedophiles a bone to keep them in control, and I disagree with that method. That does not mean I want to ban explicit mangas, I thought I made it clear in my post I'm not sure if it'll solve anything.


First of all, there are a lot of mangas out there that portrays murder as a cool thing. So I don't see how they bring up a different effect.

Secondly, I don't WANT to throw pedophiles a bone. I said I have mixed feelings regarding the effect when banning them. It might work or it might not work. I don't know and nobody knows until the Japanese government start conducting a research regarding the relations of pedophiles and lolicon mangas.

Third, the reason why I don't think we should ban the Lolicon manga is because there will be a huge double standard (when permitting of other explicit materials) and there are too little evidence to justify a policy that takes away peoples right to read and imagine what they want.

By the way, I myself am not a Lolicon nor do I sympathize with any other person like that. Sure, I feel disgusted, but I think there needs to be a lot more consideration before banning reading materials.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 08 July 2014 - 11:39 PM.

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#17 Nate River

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 12:39 AM

Also, another point I'd like to make with the bolded: This would also extend to their private sexual activities. I mean, no one should have the right to control whether someone wants to jack off from watching porn. The US has a perfectly legal porn business running, no? No one should be trying to control whether someone is buying porn or whatnot because it is an act already protected by the laws in place (unless you're a minor, of course). What happens in the living room with that CD running stays in the living room.



It does. Porn is considered speech and is protected under the first amendment. Those who hate campaign finance laws (like me) often joke that it's more protected than political speech. Unless the porn falls into obscenity, it's protected with certain restrictions (age limits, zoning laws, etc).

The standard for obscenity is rather strict. It used not to be, but the end result of the old standard was that the Justices often had to take the porn and watch it to determine if they met the definition, something they supposedly got sick of. Hence Potter Stewart's famous, I know it when I see it definition. My law professor told they used to attach the equivalent of PSA'a to the end of the porn to skirt the old obscenity standard. I think it was the element regarding having no redeeming social value, so they made up some bull crap for it to past muster.
 
Child porn is considered obscenity, though. However, it was held as such because children were actually be used in its creation, which, I think, why virtual child porn failed to meet the definition.

#18 dylanrivers10000

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 02:47 AM

@Codus
Since I'm on my phone I'll reply to you later.


First of all, there are a lot of mangas out there that portrays murder as a cool thing. So I don't see how they bring up a different effect.

Secondly, I don't WANT to throw pedophiles a bone. I said I have mixed feelings regarding the effect when banning them. It might work or it might not work. I don't know and nobody knows until the Japanese government start conducting a research regarding the relations of pedophiles and lolicon mangas.

Third, the reason why I don't think we should ban the Lolicon manga is because there will be a huge double standard (when permitting of other explicit materials) and there are too little evidence to justify a policy that takes away peoples right to read and imagine what they want.

By the way, I myself am not a Lolicon nor do I sympathize with any other person like that. Sure, I feel disgusted, but I think there needs to be a lot more consideration before banning reading materials.

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