26 replies to this topic

[milan kyuubi]

Hi everyone! :)

 

I need some help. I have a debate with some member on other forum. And I need help to counter this argument.

 

The discussion went like this...

 

He/she posted this...

 

 

6. She talks to herself about WHO SHE WOULD SAVE FIRST, NARUTO OR SASUKE! God, that was just the end of it for me! Admittedly I'm not a big Sasuke fan either but this was just unfair to both the boys for her to be contemplating this, like she's some femme fatale sacrificing a lover for a friend and vice versa! Doesn't matter that Sasuke has never shown an ounce of interest in her (except in the minds of SasuSaku fans who reach very hard for evidence that Sasuke-kun really does love his Sakura-chan!), and that Naruto has been there for her FOREVER, wanting nothing more than just the barest scrape of acknowledgment and praise.

 

6. Too bad you don't remember this. One of Sakura's all-time worst moments in a tow-truck full of bad moments. "I wonder who I would save first, Sasuke or Naruto". NOT GOOD! At least she acknowledges that she might get around to saving the other one too at some point.

 

And I responded with this...

 

 

Fillers don't count. Thats anime only scene.

 

And I got this answer with which I need a counter argument.

 

 

That may be true, I won't argue that point. However, it doesn't really change the rest of it now, does it? I can go into the fact that she's abusive-physically AND emotionally to the only real true friend she has regardless, or that on a very basic level, Sakura has not grown up. Yes, she's more powerful, but emotionally and mentally she is extremely stunted, probably because she has not experienced ANY of the losses that other more important characters around her have felt. In summation, she's still acts like a fan-girl teenager (which I find heavily disappointing, especially since I was really hoping she'd grow up eventually). Trust me when I say I was rooting for her, especially after she fought Sasori. But then nothing else happened in her character development. She's so stuck on "LOVING" Sasuke, cries incessantly, and begs Naruto to help her overcome her worst fears that she is just not good enough. Self-fulfilling prophecy much?

 

Thanks in advance! :)

 

ps: I'll be using this thread again if I have need of help.

[StrikerTheNoble]

It`s simple.

 

Explain to him the concept of tsunaderes and try using the old "pics or it didn`t happen" (ask for manga proof). Most of his responce is based on some sort of warped personal opinion.

[Rozette]

Well, I am getting tired, so I will try and reply to this as effectively as I can. 

 

 

 

 I can go into the fact that she's abusive-physically AND emotionally to the only real true friend she has regardless

 

How and when? Can this person give specific examples of Sakura being abusive to Naruto completely outside of the realm of comedy, and/or her tsundere characteristics? I could give the same argument against Kushina, being that she did yell at and punch her own son in the head after just meeting him for the first real time- however, is it that Kushina is abusive, or is it strictly comedy and also a compliment to her hot-headed and tsundere personality, which also obviously serves as a fine parallel to Sakura?

 

The only time Sakura was ever either of these outside of that realm was at the very beginning of Part 1, because she misunderstood Naruto. And she clearly corrected that misunderstanding immediately. (For example, chapter 3's entire storyline, where at the end she reprimands herself and declares that she will be nicer to him)

 

From there on it is entirely history, as the reader can clearly see that Sakura went from a girl completely ignorant to Naruto to the only one who knew of his true capabilities- in fact, she was the first and only one to believe in him out of the entire Konoha 11. Yet, this all happened within the timeline of chapter 3 through the Chuunin Exams. 

 

Unfortunately, I can't give specific moments as I am too tired for that right now, but I am sure you know exactly which would tie in to all of that if in need.

 

I am sorry, but that is all I can offer for now. I feel my eyelids closing... haha.   

[milan kyuubi]

Thanks everyone! :)

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Hi everyone! :)

 

I need some help. I have a debate with some member on other forum. And I need help to counter this argument.

 

The discussion went like this...

 

He/she posted this...

 

 

And I responded with this...

 

 

And I got this answer with which I need a counter argument.

 

 

Thanks in advance! :)

 

ps: I'll be using this thread again if I have need of help.

He is half right, she hasnt experienced any important loss, but she's not  fangirl definitvely, i mean he' right to say stuff about Sakura's behavior because we dont know what she really is right now, she growed up on confidence only but we dont know if she already growed up on her emotion, if she made a decision about Naruto and Sasuke and so on...

Those things are yet to be adressed but she's not the same.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 28 August 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[Psychox]

Hi everyone! :)

 

I need some help. I have a debate with some member on other forum. And I need help to counter this argument.

 

The discussion went like this...

 

He/she posted this...

 

 

And I responded with this...

 

 

And I got this answer with which I need a counter argument.

 

 

Thanks in advance! :)

 

ps: I'll be using this thread again if I have need of help.

Sakura has a crush on Sasuke Naruto loves Sakura , we found out that Sakura has deep romatic feelings for the guy , yep.

Explain to him/her what Tsundere means .

Fillers don't count kkthxbb .

Do ask again if needed.

 

Edited by Psychox, 28 August 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[milan kyuubi]

Hey! Me agaim. :) Gamakushii I used your points agains him. And btv once again thanks to everyone for helping.

 

He responded...

 

 

Look, I get it. You're a Sakura fan, which is fine. However, I've yet to see you make a point that can accurately argue against ANY of the points that I've made. If you want to argue, make specific points like this:

1. She fake confesses to Naruto. NO! Not acceptable, I don't care what her lame reasons were, i.e., supposedly trying to "protect" Naruto. This is a boy who has been alone his entire life, finally manages to make some friends, and then has one of his BEST friends lie to him about her feelings. He trusts her, loves her even, and she repays him by pretending to be in love with him. So sad, and really not cool.

 

So far most of the arguments you've made are not arguments so much as excuses for poor behavior. If you can't see that she is physically abusive to Naruto then you haven't been watching the show or reading the manga, in which case, arguing is pointless. SAYING you're going to treat someone better is just that--words. Just because she's a girl doesn't make it right to physically abuse a male. Hitting him constantly is not OKAY, JUST BECAUSE SHE'S A GIRL! If in society, gender equality is to exist, then the social rules must apply to both genders. Emotionally, she's abusive because she's insensitive and self-absorbed, unwilling to see anyone's pain but her own or Sasuke's. This makes her a poor friend, much like dumping Ino because she has a crush on Sasuke, as if this legitimizes her betrayal.

 

If you're going to like Sakura, I have no problem with that. Just like her for who she is, realize that she has a lot of faults, mainly surrounding her behavior towards her friends, and move on. You can like her for being strong, for her physical strength, for the fact that she's a great healer, and she has been loyal to the one person she loves. Other than that, all my points still stand. I don't like Sakura because I value compassion above strength, and friendship above romance. Sakura strikes me as selfish even in her love, and again I believe that true love is selfless. When Sakura manages to finally make a truly selfless gesture, then maybe I will reevaluate her. Until then, I'm free to dislike the characters I don't like, just as you are free to like those that you like. I won't judge you for it, so don't judge me.

 

Need help again!

[Dkey]

Hey! Me agaim. :) Gamakushii I used your points agains him. And btv once again thanks to everyone for helping.
 
He responded...
 
 
Need help again!

not exactly an argument but regarding her selfish acts she went from depending on Naruto to trying to help him. Her care for Naruto comes from the fact she sees Naruto as a human being now and he could get hurt.

[Hanabi]

Hey! Me agaim. :) Gamakushii I used your points agains him. And btv once again thanks to everyone for helping.

 

He responded...

 

 

Need help again!

why do people non sakura fans always see sakura as some demonized and horrible b*tch...?

 

1. She fake confesses to Naruto. 

The point of the confession is to make Naruto hate her, because she knew he wouldn't believe her/take her(and konoha 11) side on the extermination. At that point Sasuke is with the Akatsuki, Naruto is a Jinchurikii, the whole thing was in Naruto's best interests. She was getting desperate, the two people that matters a lot to her are both at stake.

 

If people can forgive Itachi for doing the exact same thing (lying and hurting) to Sasuke I don't see how they can't do the same for Sakura. (Be careful thou if u use itachi as example, people always think itachi is a god and not comparable to sakura the little girl)

 

 If you can't see that she is physically abusive to Naruto then you haven't been watching the show or reading the manga, in which case, arguing is pointless...................... Hitting him constantly is not OKAY, JUST BECAUSE SHE'S A GIRL! 

 

This argument pisses me off too much. Abuse??? Wtf isn't the tsundere characterization widespread in a lot of animes/manga?? What Karui did is abuse! Naruto end up in bandages / swollen eyes / blood. Sakura never hurt him that bad in manga. Anime is non canon.

 

If in society, gender equality is to exist, then the social rules must apply to both genders. 

 

People like to think Naruto is real life. you might as well ask her where can we train to stand on water too. Oh and 

where can we learn sage mode.

 

Emotionally, she's abusive because she's insensitive and self-absorbed, unwilling to see anyone's pain but her own or Sasuke's

 

Fanfiction talk. Sakura consoling Naruto because Tsunade's unconscious never happened right She is very close to Tsunade as well, yet when she is hurting inside she chose to put on a smile and tell Naruto "It'll be alright!"

 

 I don't like Sakura because I value compassion above strength, and friendship above romance...............selfish even in her love........... When Sakura manages to finally make a truly selfless gesture, then maybe I will reevaluate her

 

I'm sorry but this person has clearly not been reading the manga properly.

 

[compassion above strength] = healing comrades/non-comrades throughout the entire manga, best example she didnt even think of killing Karin the first time she met her, all she thought was how to deal with Sasuke. This is a girl that felt sad for Sasori when he died, after hearing about Chiyo and the sand village strict upbringing. 

 

[friendship above romance] = The whole point of fake confession................................. And she defend Naruto well whenever Sasuke talk bad about him

 

If you're going to like Sakura, I have no problem with that. Just like her for who she is, realize that she has a lot of faults, mainly surrounding her behavior towards her friends, and move on. 

 

If this person can realize Sakura have a lot of faults in her character, why cant she see Sakura changed? It's easy to see right? Just her mere attitude towards Naruto say a lot.

 

But I think no matter how you reply non-sakura fans won't change their opinion of her easily. she's too much of a demonized b*tch in their minds.

Edited by Hanabi, 29 August 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[Question22]

Look you know what never make arguments with NH fans they're just.... stubborn

 

They know were right but they are finding some  twisted logics that aren't even true or even logical

And the worst of all they team up with SS fans mother of god and still they cant beat our pairing.

[Saku-chan]

As a reminder, please keep the debate points respectful. Not everyone is a fan of Sakura and her personality. People interpret things in different ways and put importance on different parts of the story. If the member from the other forum is flamed, this thread will be shut and the offender will be warned. Thank you for understanding!

[Inferno180]

There is actually an easy answer:

 

Remember back all the way when team 7 first had to get the bells from Kakashi? The purpose of the test was not only teamwork but also making choices, the aspect of 2 of them only succeeding while one must go back was to create the emulation of the misison, putting others before yourself, and the concept of as ninja, they must be ready to sacrifice themselves or make impossible choices. Remember when he failed team 7 and said this," An enemy takes a hostige and then forces you into a position you cannot escape, when he used the example, "Sakura kill Naruto now or Sasuke dies" that was what he meant.

 

So for Sakura to have to decide at one point to save Naruto or Sasuke first, yes it was an impossible choice, if she had to save one with her limited power, how could the other fare that she didn't save? Obviously things turned out better in the end around this situation but for the time Sakura hadn't the clear mind of which comrade to save, this falls back to the same situation Kakashi demonstrated when he "threatened" to kill Sasuke. This "impossible choice" concept has come up again and again in the series. Hell Naruto vs. Sasuke is going to force Naruto to do something impossible (even though as readers we know he will succeed) but for the mindset Naruto will gain for the fight beforehand, he will face 3 choices he knows, 1. He will die with Sasuke, 2. Sasuke kills him to "erase the past", 3. He must be prepared to kill Sasuke for the future if it needs to be, Sasuke despite his change is still going all out when the time comes. and then there is the 4th answer we know Naruto will do, succeed and defeat Sasuke but not kill him, get his acknowledgement and turn Sasuke back.

 

Yet we know the answer to the NvS fight but Naruto himself will get the mentality of that "impossible choice" so in the long run, Sakura was just experiencing something that put pressure on her. It gave her forced conditions she could not deal with so easily.

[milan kyuubi]

Thanks all! :) But I decided to quit with debating with said person. Since it was pointless, he/she is set on his/her view.

 

But I need a very good argument for this. It needs to have some depth :)

 

 

Sakura's character is similar to Kushina's.
Naruto's character is similar to Kushina's.

I fail to see any parallel.

[Psychox]

Naruto is a combination of his parents that much is true an opinion has been expressed by several characters that he is like Minato ,like Jiraiya ,Tobirama,Kakashi,Tsunade ,others like tobi/obito compared him to Hashirama .

Sakura is the only girl by far compared to Kushina thus the girl Naruto was suppose to find is her .

Its irrelevant by this point NaruSaku = MinaKushi dynamics , the parallel has been confirmed by kishimoto so fans opinions lack any meaning .

[milan kyuubi]

Me again! :) Needing help!

 

I got into an argument over Kishi's interview where he says Sakura is an honest girl. Yet this person claims it's wrong, and Kishi said "realistic" instead of honest.

 

Him:

 

Technically the term he said was "realistic", not honest.

 

Me:

 

Actually it's not.

Interview

It goes more like:

Seiyuu: "Sakura had always been worried about Naruto, but her actions towards Naruto seem to have a different feel from before, she seems very anxious about Naruto...
How does she feel about Sasuke-kun?"

Kishimoto:
"As for Sakura... Sasuke... what about Sasuke? Naruto is close and she worries about Naruto as well, but as expected, she [loves] Sasuke.

Seiyuu: Because of this, she acted quite haughty towards that guy.
She used Naruto's love for her and told him she loved him.

Kishimoto: On the contrary.... I felt like depicting an honest girl, with a surprisingly stubborn impression.
So... she became such a character, but... well... from here on, maybe I should draw her showing a bit more spirit.
I figured I had placed her in a heroin-like situation
But from the readers I was told harshly that she wasn't heroin-ish at all
Perhaps I should show depict her a bit more like a heroin
Because you say 'Hinata Hinata,' I say 'She's not Hinata' "

Seiyuu: "When I first saw her hugging Naruto, my heart beat throbbed a bit."

Kishimoto:
"Well, an unpleasant person is an unpleasant person, but the feeling I was trying to depict is that you could say "after this, [my opinion of her] has gone up a bit... yeah"

 

Him:

 

Eh... No.

次は岸本先生への質問コーナー
Next was the Questions For Kishimoto-sensei Corner
中村さんが「最近の展開でサクラは・・・」ってかんじで
Nakamura-san started off with something like, "With the latest developments, Sakura has..."
あいつ（竹内さんが「あいつ？ｗ」って反応）はナルトの好意を利用したりイヤなヤツだけど、
He said something like, that chick* (Takeuchi reacted to that "That chick" lol) is detestable for using Naruto's good will,
まあそういうリアルな女の子っぽく描こうと思って、といったかんじ
but, well that's just how I'd think to write a realistic girl.
サクラがイヤなヤツだとはよく言われるけど故意でそうしてるらしい
You hear all the time that Sakura is a detestable person, but that's what seems to be the intention
「ヒロインはサクラなので」「これから意地を見せるところを描く」
"Since Sakura is the heroine", "I'll be writing from now on to show her with that disposition"
「みんなヒナタヒナタ言うけど・・・」
"Though everyone says Hinata-Hinata all the time..."
↑これはヒナタを応援する声が大きいってニュアンスじゃないかな（個人的な印象ね）
↑I wonder if it's that their voices supporting Hinata are so loud (my personal impression)
杉山さんはどれを質問するか迷いつつ（ただのファン状態）

 

Is he right? If he is not. Can someone post a raw version with translated text which proves Kishi said "Honest"? Maybe even a link to some official site. Which is not SS/NH biased?

 

Thanks in advance! :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BakeNeko-Chan]

I'm afraid I can't read Japanese, so I'm not much help. You need to see if you can get ramenmitsu or someone to clarify the translation, though everything I've searched on the subject says "honest girl" not "realistic".

[Hanabi]

i used google translate with this line "まあそういうリアルな女の子" that supposedly says .."realistic girl", if google translate is not wrong.

 

maybe u should ask megi. i saw her post recently.

Edited by Hanabi, 17 September 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

i used google translate with this line "まあそういうリアルな女の子" that supposedly says .."realistic girl", if google translate is not wrong.

 

Those can be faulty though from what I understand. It's really best to find a Japanese speaker to make sure.

But I'm not sure it really matters, yes it changes the meaning, but I don't think it increases NH's changes, for many, many reasons.

Edited by BakeNeko-Chan, 17 September 2013 - 05:33 PM.

[narusakuforlife1667]

People are stubbern a lot I would just ignore this nh fan it wont be worth your time if he/she wont listen

[milan kyuubi]

Hey it's me again!

I been arguing for a great deal of time that Sakura is not useless and it's in fact a relevant character. And important to the plot and story But no matter what I tried. No matter how many facts I brought up. From which angle I tried to go on. I always get more or less "Sakura in nothing of those things". So I really don't know what to say anymore to them.

If someone here can write a good/long counter argument that will shut them up at last (or at least for some time). I would be very grateful. :)

 

I would like to admit I was wrong about the juubi sizes. Since it's been some time since I read the chapter/s. And I thought they were all big at the beginning as they were later on. That was my fault. ;)

 

This post is from MF!

 

And it's the answer to my post I made.

My Post

She was the first one who figured out the secret about Obitos jutsy. Many many chapters before it was reveled she was right.
She healed a lot of people during the start of war. And saved their lives.
She discovered Zetsus secret and saved many lives.
She gave a speech towards whole alliance.
She healed Naruto.
She got her seal.
She destroyed countless juubi clones, that were the same sizes as Bunta.
She summoned Katsuya.
She healed many people. And saved their lives again.
She helped Tsunade summon 1/10 of Katsuya so people who are fighting the tree want die by instant death (those people include more then simple fodder. There are also kages there)

And this is just on top of my head.

So maybe comparing her to Naruto she is useless. But useless overall? I am afraid not.

So people even after seeing all of this (and more) still call her useless are called haters because they ignore large amounts of manga.

 

 

 

• She was the first one who figured out the secret about Obitos jutsy. Many many chapters before it was reveled she was right. - Kakashi was the first to truly understand Obito's technique.
• She healed a lot of people during the start of war. And saved their lives. - Yea...she's a medic...that's expected....healing fodder btw...is synonymous to a dude killing fodder....ain't that much a feat.
• She discovered Zetsus secret and saved many lives. - Naruto saved all those lives as whether she discovered it or not...she couldn't do kitten about it....in fact the only thing it did for the entire alliance was make every damn one of them more hopeless cus they didn't know who to trust.
• She gave a speech towards whole alliance. - Hinata began that speech....also if you wanna talk about speaches, Yamanaka did the same thing, Shikamaru did the same, Hashirama did the same, Naruto did the same (well his were more like feelings).
• She healed Naruto. - Er....he was protecting the entire alliance.....pretty sure if the stupid alliance hadn't shown up in the first place he wouldn't have needed healing.
• She got her seal. - This.....isn't even a point considering how much of a noob she is at using it.
• She destroyed countless juubi clones, that were the same sizes as Bunta. - Okay....I literally facepalmed at this.....is fanboying clouding your sight? I provided an image below these bullet points for you to see how large they were....they were in no way the size of Bunta....they were the size of humans just a little taller.
• She summoned Katsuya. - She got a summon.....is that even suppose to be a feat when naruto was able to do this in part 1 and sasuke since early on in the entire series? She's a damn main character for crying out loud....she should have been doing this since the beginning of part 2.
• She healed many people. And saved their lives again. - Healing fodder is the same as killing fodder. The only heal that counts is naruto and that don't say much as I've pointed out already, he wouldn't have needed her had the SA been eating popcorn somewhere else. Also, you can't even count Shikamaru as it was naruto and Tsunade that saved him.
• She helped Tsunade summon 1/10 of Katsuya so people who are fighting the tree want die by instant death (those people include more then simple fodder. There are also kages there) - The only point in your entire post that actually is correct....yes...I would admit...her and Tsunade does actually contribute to the healing process right now.

Now these are Jubi Jr. sizes....please tell me how the kitten they look like gamabunta to you:

pics

Largest it got...and she didn't do kitten to that...that was naruto and sasuke's kill:



This is gamabunta, son....see how small naruto is?:


 

 

 

This one is from AS.

 

 

but what is a character's usefulness if other characters can easily fill the void if they left? plus a lot of what you mentioned is just busy filler work that kishi had her do so one of his 'main characters' had at least something to do. also, sakura has an almost non-existent story-line. i mean what is it? she couldn't compare to naruto and sasuke so she became a medic so she could stay in the background and heal them when needed? that's completely uninteresting and just serves as a bandaid for the characters who actually matter and are interesting. and she has no idiosyncrasies as a character either. inner-sakura was good, even though it was kinda goofy, but it's been gone so long it doesn't matter anymore. now she's just a milk toast healer character who could be easily replaced by tsunade, shizune, ino, etc... and that list is just proof that kishi can't write women at all

 

If someone can write separate counter arguments for this posts I would be extremely grateful. :)

 

Thanks in advance!