A sudden shift in loyalties due to Madara's influence is one potential reason? Remember that one critical aspect of Sasuke's personality is that his mind and emotions are considered to be a "blank canvas", he can be influenced by anyone should they provide the necessary motivations or words to make him alter his perspective yet again. Then there's ideological divergences when aspiring to defend Konoha that could be another reason as others have hypothesized. Then of course there is the possible development of Sasuke wishing to acquire the position of Hokage which may compel the two rivals to fight in a battle that determines who becomes the 6th (or the 7th if you consider Danzo to be the 6th)
Then you just created one of the most cheap ass ways to make Sasuke "redeem" himself and you have to wonder why didn't he just do this when he met with Obito. This is a huge problem with this and it will really put a damper to everything this manga tried to make us see. This entire manga drove the idea of a huge Naruto and Sasuke fighy and that Naruto was supposed to resolve it in the end. A story about Sasuke seeking revenge and Naruto showing how revenge only leads to more suffering. As explained in past threads, to boil this down to nothing more than a fight for power or a simple sparring match will diminish everything this manga has tried setting up. Kishi might as well not do it if he is going to go that route because you will find many people disappointed.
Speaking of disappointment, Sasuke's redemption would be so cheap and shallow...I can't even describe it. This was my biggest issue with the redemption and one I feared for the most. I still say to this day, Sasuke and Obito should have switched places. Sasuke should be the one trying to rebuild the world the way he wanted while Obito sought revenge for Rin's death leading to the truth. It would have made both their redemption's more powerful and actually give them reasons to be redeemed. Now we have Obito who's redemption could be a satisfying one while Sasuke will fall flat because he was persuaded by kind words for a man he has no connections with?
Speaking of which, how is Naruto going to redeem him them? Wasn't it Naruto's job to do that? That you just screwed up several areas of the manga and several long story arcs leading to nothing, but an asspull and a character with plot armor.
Yes, but I will not completely deny the potentiality of him defecting. Anything is possible.
Anything is possible, but you said so yourself what practicality would it make? You have to accept all outcomes that Kishi chooses to be. However, while any outcome may occur what would be more interesting?
Acted as a scout during the Itachi Pursuit Arc, assisted in protecting Naruto from the Mokuton stakes, and put his shoulder back into place. They're relatively minor accomplishments but I also consider the emotional ones as well since we tend to do the same with Sakura. I would rather not appear as a hypocrite to others for failing to acknowledge those sorts of contributions.
Again "minor" stuff that practically anyone could have did and some actually did. Couldn't Neji have been that scout? Neji blocked the stakes. She pushed his shoulder back in...Okay and Sakura healed his entire body from burns. I don't know if you want to count giving Naruto that medicine thing, but whatever.Bolded:
I don't even think I want to count that cause it was Neji that did it while Hinata took the glory. She really didn't do anything. She didn't block them. She didn't swat any away. Neji did it. He took the full force of them. So I am gonna give that one to Neji, not Hinata.
I don't want to appear as a hypocrite as well, but I don't want to deny facts either. We also got all these moments where Hinata really could have did some good and did nothing. Where was she when Naruto felt alone and just wanted to be a part of the group in part 1? Where was she when they went after Sasuke? Does she even care about Naruto's goal after Sasuke? Does she even try to understand? Does she even know of his feelings for Sakura? Where was she when Naruto had problems with eating cause of his arm? Why didn't she hug Naruto when he returned to the village after fighting Pein? Why didn't she pursue stronger into her confession (even when we know she could have)? Why wasn't she put on Team 7? Why didn't she try to take of Sasuke if she knew how much of a burden he was or at least try to ease him of his sorrows?
It's not just a character action, but rather what Kishi is doing with her and why he didn't he do such obvious things. It all comes down to writing ethics and what you want to portray. He could have made NH so obvious it hurts, but he choose to keep her in the background and out of sight most of the time with only sporadic and forgettable moments that mean little to the manga overall. Even now he seems to forget about her so much that he has to make up for all the times he could have done before. There is no reason why he just left Hinata in the background if NH was supposed to be the canon pairing.
You are accurate in this statement but think to yourself, what physical benefit could she possibly provide now? Her supplications to Sasuke for him to relent in his murderous pursuits have continually fallen upon deaf ears. If she is unable to verbally influence him and if she cannot physically assist due to her comparatively inefficient combat skills for such a destructive battle then what role could she possibly act in? Any reinforcement she can offer will likely come in the form of encouragement to Naruto or as a restorative supplement to her teammate; if that even occurs at all. Remember that Kishimoto has greatly disappointed all fandoms during the course of the manga.
And if he makes Sasuke good again like you stated above in your first paragraph...then it is all worthless. We seem to forget that this is not about the journey of Hinata or Sasuke. It is not even the journey of Sakura. It was supposed to be about the journey of Naruto and him overcoming everything he is faced against, but we have Hinata who is all of a sudden is trying to be this big importance out of nowhere and now we have Sasuke making another huge character shift because of some old story? How does this benefit the journey of Naruto? How does this play into Naruto overcoming adversary and standing in the end. This is why many claim it is bad writing. This is why people get some of the messages wrong because Kishi seems unable to decide what he wants to do with either Hinata or Sasuke. Yet when it comes to Naruto or Sakura, they are very in line with what they do and who they are and they only waver from these paths because of Hinata and Sasuke only because Kishi seems to not know what to do with them.
I can think of many many possible physical benefits that would fit along with her character and I can make it seem like it would fit with the flow of the story. Trust me, I thought of several moments in this that resolve all the problem leading up to that point, but it requires Sasuke still being evil and Hinata not being in the picture at all.
I believe that the reasoning for this perspective of thinking is related to Sakura's lack of any enormous conflicts that she participated in as a combatant. Keep in mind that these people surmise the worth of a character by their general battle efficiency. However, that does present the peculiarity of why they value Hinata's existence so much when she has remained almost non-existent throughout the totality of the manga until recently; even with the battle against the Jubi her role as a participant in the battle has been comparatively inconsequential.
That's what I am trying to tell you and this is their fault entirely because they hate her for one reason or another. The simple fact of this hypocrisy shows that these fans do not know what they are talking about and I cannot take their judgement as truth or with factual back up. I like Sakura, but I like her because of her character, not because I liked her flat out. In fact, I hated her in the beginning.
Well no one is perfect in opinion or action, Kishimoto is no different. If he defines a heroine as an individual who has been generally inefficient with maintaining an equal amount of focus to that of her male teammates or someone who's status as a main character is being constantly centred upon as a contentious issue of debate then I'm afraid our opinions diverge from here. Kishi's handling of Sakura's character is of a very questionable quality, I believe I speak not just for myself when stating that many of us were hoping for so much more from her than what we received.
Yes, he has not been treating his female character as much respect as he should have, but when he does give them respect and that time to do so what happens when we become stupid? What happens when we become blind to the obvious? As I said, there are faults he does as a writer, but there is also faults we do as a fanbase. If Kishi depicted one way because that is what was intended and we as the fanbase took it another because we wanted something different, whose fault is that? If you really think about it, he has treated Sakura with more respect than any of his other female characters. Also, not every character needs to be super important otherwise you take away focus from the main character. If Sakura, the heroine or Hinata starts taking out everything and doing everything what is there left for Naruto to do? We have to keep remembering that Sakura and Hinata are not the
main characters. Sakura is a
main character and Hinata is a support character, but it seems like we want them doing jobs that the hero should be doing.
So it is all about balance. Balance in character development, Balance in importance. Balance in conflict. At least we can say that Sakura has grown up along side Naruto and not in his shadow like Hinata has been. So it is not all bad writing just there is so much that people want and so much info Kishi shifts through that you don't know.
Also, read this. I find Sakura's confession to be a type of this.http://tvtropes.org/...eathOfTheAuthor
The confession segment of her efforts is not my concern ,it's her actions of attempting to protect Naruto and presumably being killed which inadvertently resulted in Naruto being released from Pain's grasp. Yes, it could very well have resulted in the destruction of not just Konoha but the Land of Fire entirely but it did not thanks to Minato's efforts. Her actions did yield an unintentional positive effect. That, I cannot deny because had she not intervened... Well, I believe I already provided my thoughts as to what would occur if Naruto did not transform into 6TK.
That's a problem though. That's a huge problem. She got lucky that nothing bad really happened in the end and that there were people there who managed to take control of the situation. I am not gonna give her credit for what other people do especially when it was never her "intention" to do such good. Again, look at what Sakura did. Look at what she tried to do with Sasuke which was also a stupid plan, but she knew the risks. She knew the ways it was hurting Naruto and really wanted to help no matter what the cost. She was aware of the possibilities and aware of the outcomes that might occur. The way Hinata is portrayed in that scene alone makes it seem like she wasn't thinking at all. It makes her seem like "Well, I am gonna die anyway, might as well show Naruto who I am and what I feel.
We take both these actions as ends justify the means, but if the end was completely unintentional, then how does this credit the means? Who knows maybe Naruto could have gotten out of the situation himself and her efforts were in vain. Problem is we will never know that. And yes, if Sakura did it I would be disappointed in her as well.
This, I am in agreement with. There were a myriad of alternative approaches that she could have taken which may have actually proved to be directly beneficial in helping Naruto. She could have attempted to remove the rods, but then you have to consider what practical benefit there would be to Naruto being released in the condition that he was in. Remember that Fukasaku had just been murdered and Shima was incapacitated. If Naruto was freed then he would be without SM or any practical means of stopping Pain; barring of course the reproduction of following events where Naruto was able to endure God Realm's ST using a multitude of clones and then be propelled at him with a Rasengan in hand. But then you have the issue of how and why Naruto would produce those clones when considering the different circumstances such as the availability of reacquiring SM if he is able to reach the summoning scroll in time, the relatively flat terrain which would hinder the concealment of mass amounts of clone, and Nagato's larger amount of stamina due to not having utilized Chibaku Tensei prior. Who is to claim that Naruto would not endeavour to try and make an effort for the scroll whilst Hinata preoccupies Pain? If she is injured then the same result with 6TK being unleashed would be realized and events would play out as they did.
There are so many factors that you have to take into consideration when hypothesizing about these alternative outcomes that it becomes an almost impossible endeavour.
So many factors, but I am still not giving Hinata credit she doesn't deserve. As for Naruto not surviving, I am sure if Kishi wanted he could have had Naruto figure something out. I mean he did it with Sasuke and asspulled it with his fight with Deidara and Toriyama does it all the time with Goku. It also happens with Yu-Gi-Oh quite a lot where the hero pulls that one special card or gains that one certain power that just solves the entire problem.
Sakura does have her ignorant moments as well. Despite her benevolent intentions when attempting to reason with Naruto when he was in 4TK mode it was very impracticable when considering that the beast before her was immensely more powerful than she was and that Naruto had lost all mentality and consciousness when he surpassed the 3TK state. Please do not mistake my implications. I do believe that she is a very meaningful hero in regards to emotional relations with others. However, there is a fine line between dedication and stupidity. Her actions with the 4TK were of an intermixed quality but there have been other instances where she has committed actions of both qualities.
And I fault her just as well when she screws up. Like I said above, I would judge Sakura the same way. Do not mistake my intentions as me being blinded or one-sided or unable to factor in possibilities. I am not implying anything on you, I am just trying to answer your inquiries. I base my opinion on characters not simply by actions or merits or intentions, but all three. You have to factor in everything they do including all the faults and successes. Looking at only one aspect alone does not give a good enough picture and easily manipulates the entire view. Same with Naruto. He screws up. I am not happy he was willing to give up so easily in 615 because Neji died despite many including Itachi telling him that he needs to remember that the war is not all about him. I have many complaints about Naruto that I am hoping Sakura knocks out of him.
Yes, and if Hinata had not intervened Pain would have likely successfully returned to the Akatsuki lair with Naruto in tow. I already provided my personal interpretation as to how events would transpire if Naruto did not become the 6TK. The intended ambiance of my hypothetical timeline was that, to be frank, the situation would be much worse than it became with Hinata's interference. Konoha would remain in the ravaged state that it was with much of its population forever gone, its infrastructure completely crippled, and one of their most powerful shinobi permanently killed. Never mind the adverse effects that Naruto being captured would entail such as Pain still being an active Akatsuki member, the White Zetsu army continuing their guerilla strategy to slowly cripple the alliance forces, and the reality that Itachi, one of the most powerful shinobi in the manga, would remain under Kabuto's control without Naruto's encounter providing the necessary means for him to escape.
Or Naruto could have prevailed and beat Pein straight up after a long grueling fight with Hinata not interfering at all. We could have had Sakura jump in and do the same thing. We could have had her punch Pein giving him enough time to get up. You have given me interpretations and possibilities, but this is a two way street my friend. Kishi could have written it several ways and still have it be good, but he wrote it this way...so we question why. That's what we do. We ask questions and speculate based on why he did or did not do what he did. Back and forth, everyday speculation, but it all comes down to this. Hinata jumped in. Did she need to? We don't know. Why? We could argue it was to help, but then she could have been more productive. Was it necessary? Again, given that many possibilities could have happened both on a good and bad scale we don't know. Good thing about fiction is the writer can do whatever he pleases.
The monument of possibilities is endless and anything could have happened. Maybe in one existence Pein didn't exist at all and the battle never took place. Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey...stuff. However, whatever was chosen we can't ignore what didn't happen and what didn't happen is Hinata helping. This is why in the anime they have Hinata pulling out a stake or two, but the manga she did no such thing.
All of it is possible outcomes. It COULD have happened this way, but it didn't it happened this way. You're making it seem like if Hinata didn't interfere, then Naruto would die so we should thank her she interfered, but why? Again, I can think of several ways for Naruto to get out of the situation without Hinata doing anything at all. I can think of some where Sakura was the one who interfered and makes the situation better.
2. Her battle against Neji - Hinata was originally going to quit but due to Naruto's incessant advocating for her to continue in a fight that she could not possibly win she chose to continue. I credit her, as most people should, for her character development here but ultimately her decision was physically impractical as she required hospitalization for the damage caused to her internal organs which afflicted her for a month following the battle. This situation was not just her own doing but Naruto's as well for his insistence that she continue fighting.
Yeah, but Hinata didn't change Neji's view of his worth. Wouldn't it have been a great to have Hinata break down the barriers of her clan, showing strength, and actually create this side story showing her grow and become this great leader? This would also enforce what she is doing now and not make it feel awkward. She didn't have to win the bout to prove this either. Of course, as I said this was a possibility that never happened, but would have made a more interesting and given Hinata depth.
3. Intervention against Pain - A situation that was entirely of her own volition which required Hinata to be healed by Sakura. Yes, this is in accordance with all of the conditions that you stated with no ambiguity implied through others influencing the situation or her. I would persist in arguing that her involvement was better than the alternative transpiring however.
Again, it is not known Naruto would have been taken and Kishi could have Naruto survive and win without Hinata interfering. It is not like this was the only option Kishi had, but again we can't ignore that it was Sakura's efforts in wanting to become a medical ninja that Hinata is still alive and we have to acknowledge that if Minato didn't put in safe-guards the situation would have gotten even worse as well.
4. Protecting Naruto from the Mokuton spikes - It was the Hyuga family that was safeguarding Naruto as a group and considering the state that Naruto was in protection of him was essential. Yes, she was technically "bailed out" by Neji using his own body to absorb the impact of the spikes but considering the severity of the situation I cannot hold this against her. Everyone was defenceless against Madara and the Jubi at that point. All they could do was avoid the spikes as best they could.
See above. Neji gets no love and Hinata gets the credit. Hinata gets 1/4th Credit, Neji gets 2/4ths credit and Kurama gets 1/4th credit. That's how I see it. Oh wait...forgot that fangirling Naruto thing which ruined the moment for her credit. If we're gonna be fair and judge Sakura based on her fangirling for Sasuke in part 1 (as many do), then I will hold it against Hinata as well. It is only fair.
So yes, your statement is technically accurate but there needs to be consideration of the factors involved which could potentially exonerate Hinata of any unjustified criticism that people may apply to her character.
So basically, she is either unjustifiably criticized or unjustifiably praised and made out to be better than she actually is. At least when it comes to my criticism, I don't judge her based off bias for Sakura nor because of my fandom for NS.
Out of all of these situations, I would claim that only two of them were within Sakura's capability to handle on her own. That is a ratio of 2:10 for Sakura's previous attempts of assessing a situation. As I much as I dislike that prospect I will not deny these facts.
While these are true, and I am not going to deny either, is more than just that that makes a character a hero or not. The core of her character is also what makes her a hero and I find that Sakura has shown to be more emotionally stable with growth than Hinata is. Heck, even more than Naruto is for that matter. And as much as you dislike this prospect, this is still a higher score than Hinata has. We also don't know what future things Sakura and Hinata may do and so these numbers could still shift at any time.
There are also many of these little moments that I believe also play a huge point overall, but we can keep going at this all day with every moment. The point is, however, is how both these character have grown and tried to overcome their problems and while Sakura has at least tried to make things better, Hinata seems to only want to satisfy her love for Naruto.
Hinata: Selfless acts for selfish reasons.
Sakura: Selfless acts for Selfless reasons.
Well this is quite the unforeseen shift in sentiments. I believed that I have already provided evidence that Sakura and Hinata have both made contributions to the store, directly or indirectly. So I do not feel the need to respond fully yet again to this disputing point.
Yes, but Sakura has provided more in terms of heroism and many other characters have provided even more than that which again dwarfs Hinata's actions in retrospect. We can look at every single thing every character has done and not done and I guarantee you that Hinata's actions seem like nothing. A mere drop in the bucket to the greater picture. A drop that I could take out and no one would know the difference.
Really? Naruto attributed credit for his revitalized mindset to Hinata. Yes, Kurama played a very significant role as well in persuading him not to relent, but to try and repudiate Hinata's efforts which Naruto himself provided credit to is, in my honest opinion, unreasonable and insensate. Though I may not be particularly fond of her character, I will personally not deny credit to her when it is due.
Naruto attributed to her saving him from Pein, but this is far from the truth as well wasn't it? As I stated above. We also have Naruto saying that Hinata is strong despite her being on the ground and not winning a single battle in her life. She is not even emotionally strong. For all we know, Naruto says anything to her just so she doesn't feel bad. We also have radical misinterpretations where Naruto says "You have always been there for me" or something and the fans mistook this as she was always there since the beginning which is a down right lie in itself.
I am not saying Hinata did nothing don't mistake this, but you're making it sound like she deserves the highest credit to a scene that was completely forced and has made no difference in the plot itself other than killing off one character. If we are to count everything that everyone has done for Naruto, then Hinata has only done a mere fraction of it while we have Iruka, Itachi, Neji, Jiraiya, Sakura, Killer Bee, and so many others have already done. Compared to all that, Hinata is merely a drop in the bucket. Yeah it adds water, but when you have other characters adding cups of water it makes that drop very insignificant.
This is especially true when you have fans who credit Hinata for other things characters have done and make her out to be this big heroine.
615 is the only chapter I am actually giving to her partial credit for. Every other moment I can offset with the fact that it could have lead to worse if others didn't fix.
Other than that, I guess we just agree to disagree.
Edited by James S Cassidy, 16 May 2013 - 05:16 AM.