tricksie

So... I Finally finished FMA. And oh boy... I said it is my favorite anime... I mean it. It ended on a high note. EdWin for the win.

Oh yeah - one of my all time faves!! 

oh my gosh it's soooooo gooooood! Like reading Naruto in the old days! (didn't finish it tho, I ran out of time and have to come back to it.)

only wish we had this for Naruto and Sakura!

I don't think close is the right word more Kushina likely teased him a lot, which he hated because he wanted to be taken seriously, and only remembered it fondly after everyone was dead. But I see Kakashi spending more time with Minato both because he is his team's sensei & the closest thing he has to a father figure after his dad passed. We never really see Kakashi fondly think about Kushina when he watches Naruto. While Kakashi is always reading Jiraiya's books which Minato was stated in the databooks and in flashback to enjoy...though I think the Icha Icha series came out after his death. So, a very know habit of his came most likely from fondly remembering Minato reading the tale of the gusty ninja and trying to imitate it. Kushina's hobby seemed to be cooking (also pranking and talking with people) and we never see as scene of Kakashi making a meal for his team to try to bring them closer through that...though he could be a bit trollish; so maybe he picked up that from her. When Naruto does something it either he find it amusing it, annoying, he sees Minato, or as he said to Obito he saw a lot of him in Naruto.

 

Again, Kakashi never really thinks about Kushina which means he was at least more close to Minato and cared more about him than her. The people we first heard her from was in a conversation between Jiraiya and Tsunade. Jiraiya talking about how much Naruto is like Minato clearly fondly remember training both, while Tsunade points out he is only like Minato in appearance in every other way he is Kushina. That implies some level of closeness between Kushina and Tsunade and they likely have some form of bond probably due to them both spending time with Lady Mito. She the only one Kushina seemed close to besides Mikoto her best friend, in story. Which either means either everyone she was close to is dead or just not involved in the plot. For a bit of head-canon and using ladygt fan-comics. I see Kushina being friends with the mothers of team seven when they were young. Kushina was the tomboy with a crush on a boy, Mikoto was the polite reserved one, and Mebuki was a punk that straightened up later in life. I see Kizashi as one of Minato's early rivals as they were both from un-prominent clans that wanted to become Hokage. However Minato's potential was spotted by Jiraiya while Kizashi was not leading to him to be completely left in the dust after a few years. Eventually, realizing that becoming Hokage was out of his reach, just retiring early, starting a business, and marry Mebuki once she finally grew up enough to say yes... and started to openly enjoy his bad jokes. Fugaku didn't seemed to be that close with Minato to me. So he was more of an unacknowledged rival as he would claim he wanted to take up the role of chief of the military police, when he secretly wished to become Hokage.

 

Kushina didn't seem to have a team despite her age and rank. Though that is likely because like always, Kishimoto didn't put much consideration into backstory unless its to explain something happening in the plot. Though a good excuse is that because she was the village's demon container and the last Uzumaki seal master she was too much of a target to be allowed a genin team. So she adopted Minato's trying to bond with each one, and if he ever complained she would probably joke that they are practice for when she has kids of her own.

 

From what I recall, Obito was her favorite, in the anime, to heighten the tragedy that he killed her along with her husband and orphaned their son leaving him to take up her role as Kurama's container...with all the suffering she knew would come from that.

Yeah, like I said, head canon. I'm not ever re-reading Naruto again — just makes me angry —so I don't know the fine details as well anymore. But it always felt like if Kishi planned for Kakashi to be the one the 'raise' Naruto, then it makes more sense to have him with the connection.

I remember now that Obito was like the Naruto on the team. But seriously.... the kid turns into a psychopathic killer when he's like 15, 18? And kills both of Minato and Kushina in such a horrific way trying to steal Naruto. It should never have been written that way that she identified with the kid who strung her up and ripped a hole in her stomach just a few years later. 

If Naruto were a movie, then young Obito would always be accompanied by 'he might be a villain' music!!

As for Kushina, it's actually pretty disappointing that she wasn't given a more active role. Like, why? She would have been the most powerful shinobi in Konoha right? And yet she can't even get her own team? But Naruto goes on to become Hokage with the same power? Kushina should have been a super bad ass in her own right, standing equal to Minato in terms of village power, and absolutely on her own in terms of lethal power. And it would have been interesting to see her interacting with other hosts. Like maybe there was some kind of peace among the jinchuriki before Obito shattered everything. 

And, though I'm not pro-Uchiha anything, I can understand why they would have been pissed that the only guy from an apparently dead clan (Namikaze) gets the Kage role, while this huge clan of powerful shinobis gets passed over. 

Didn't the Third want Orochimaru for the role, then Jiraiya. And when Jiraiya backed out only THEN it went to Minato? Which makes it kind of funny the Tsunade has to go back and pick up the pieces. The one who wasn't even asked to do the job!

edit: so much of this is rhetorical too. Just thinking back over the pre-Naruto era really reveals what a mess it was. And Kishi could have tied it all together with Naruto's story – forgave his rival, succeeded where his dad failed, abolished the shinobi system that created these problems, etc. etc. Instead he just made it worse by leaving Naruto like a grown-up kid, with nothing at all resolved.

The time he said that was to hype up the chidori, which was going to be Sasuke signature attack from now on. Just because people have similar personalities does not mean they will be favored, hell the opposite could happen. If I were to say Kakashi favorite student it would be Naruto because he is his sensei's son, his personality is the most like his dead teammate who he had grown to idolize, and he was the most interesting. Him being similar to Sasuke just meant he knew somethings to watch out for.

Obito was also so much like Kushina, who Naruto completely takes after too! 

I have a head canon that Kakashi was actually closer to Kushina than Minato, because they were both orphans in a way. Minato was a strong, focused leader that he wanted to be like, but that Kushina was the one who kept young Kakashi grounded and empathized with him. She was like a big sister to him. 

Also...*sigh*... way more tragic that way considering just how many people Kakashi has lost in his life! ugh! Kushina as a big sister would have been just another terrible loss....

Anyway, still my head canon! 

I just ignore those debates. It has been talked about ad nausem to the point there is nothing else to be said.

Naruto really became a toxic series that pitted the fandom against one another on a lot of the characters (Sasuke, Hinata, Sakura just to name a few). Maybe it has to do with how Kishi structured his story and characters but I always found it really odd how it turned out that way.

It seemed like it was the anime vs. the manga for me. If you watched the anime only, then it was all Hinata, all the time. Naruto had an unrequited crush on Sakura, and she was always mean to him, picking Sasuke over him. Even when Sasuke was gone. And then again...Hinata.....

But if you read the manga, then it was like you got an entirely different story.

They may have both been Naruto branded, but only one of them Kishi wrote. The anime went off on its own time and time again. Those creators shipped NH, and so they frothed up a legion of fans who wanted the same thing.

It's not like we were all reading the same thing and came out with a very different response/viewpoint. One group is reading, another group is primarily watching, and believes that to be the canon source.

You can't read the manga and come away with 'Hinata is our queen.' She simply not in there enough! lol

I think some of the fan issues stem from the fact that you had two very different Naruto stories out there in the world, running at the same time. One of them pushed for a different ending. And they got it!

 

No wonder so many people thought that Sasuke was The Main character. I don't know if Kishi just got tired of writing and wanted to be done with it, but when you look at it, he didn't have any interest in Naruto as the character anymore. And this was even before getting close to the end of the manga.

It looks like he wanted to be done with it.

Honestly, I do think Kishimoto fell 'out of love' with his main character and was more inspired by writing for his morally grey anti-hero.

It totally happens. Authors botch their own stories all the time. Especially in a series. They lose the thread of where they were going, get bored, then start writing towards a different ending than the one they started out with. 

You can tell it happened in Naruto because there were no more true story arcs after a point in time. Just conflict and resolution.

And the final bit of damning evidence? That the ending of the whole Naruto manga was from Sasuke's point of view. The one character who spent the entire time trying to get away from Naruto. He has nothing to contribute, because he had nothing to do with their stories. At all. 

But in Kishimoto's head, Sasuke is the hero. So why hear from Naruto about what happened in his life?

If Kishi wanted a neutral narrator, Kakashi would have been the best choice.

Imagine if the Harry Potter series turned into Draco's power ups and backstories about the whole Malfoy family, then Voldemort turns out to be just another ancient Malfoy....and then finally after the Battle of Hogwarts and the series has come to a close, the epilogue was told from Draco's point of view? For no other reason than the author just wanted a little more Draco Malfoy before it ended?

That's what happened in Naruto. And when you apply the same scenario to any other story or movie, it becomes crystal clear that the creator fell out of love with his hero and sold out his original story. 

Yep, yep, yep.

I like the Sasuke I write in my fics. Complicated, but not cruel. At least not to Sakura. And even his bad traits aren't so bad that you hate him - he has redeemable qualities. 

But in the manga, he's more like Itachi. Cold and cruel to everyone. Even Naruto, but especially to Sakura. There is no one Sasuke bonded to, no one he trusted, no one who was his friend. 

Shippers who see something in him are pulling from their own image of him. Which is totally fine. But the black-and-white facts of him in the manga prove just how bad he is. 

This applies to Naruto as well!! There is nothing in their relationship that gives Naruto a reason to act the way he does toward Sasuke. Sasuke was just a little less-of-an-asshole to him when they were kids, and now Naruto is obsessed with saving him for the rest of their lives. Naruto, like the Sasuke shippers, sees something in him that was never there to begin with. A version of Sasuke that was never there to begin with.

Plus I feel he only calls her his wife because he is trying to mock Naruto at times since some hints from the Gaiden were Naruto still is in love with Sakura, and for Sasuke, being with Sakura could be a way to "win" over Naruto, in spite of "The Last" claiming Naruto was the one who wanted Sakura to "best" Sasuke when he's NEVER had a thing for Sakura! Closest woman Sasuke had any attraction to as miniscule as it was goes to Karin, who I still see as Sarada's biological mother.

Yep - I stand by "The True End" chapter being the pairings that Kishi wanted to end with. Sasuke and Karin, Naruto and Sakura. And Sarada could totally have been Karin's daughter and it wouldn't have changed a thing about Boruto. 

 

The biggest problem I think for them realizing that they have a market for SS fans who will buy anything if it promotes their ship, is that they have made everyone else who is not an SS hate the ship so much that they don't care as it's too late because this paring has so much baggage behind it. Shippers maybe the loudest fanbase, but not the largest. Best example is star wars with Reylo, no one liked that kiss between them unless they shipped rey and ben together. So despite what many SS fans say about how that novel that's getting adapted fixes SS no one outside of them is excited for that book. Frankly if Sakura didn't end up with Sasuke and was ether with anyone else or single I think her character would have a better reputation and more people would be willing to check out more content involving her that are not die hard shippers.

I see so much art for Sakura and Sakura with Sasuke now.... It's crazy. The SS shippers were non-existent by the end of the original manga. (And actually I think the ones now aren't the old SS shippers but brand new ones.) But I always just wonder when I see SS art.... I'm like, Have you actually read the original manga? Like from the beginning....? lol 

Sasuke's not nice to Sakura. Not ever. I mean sure he saves her a couple times...but he also tries to KILL HER a couple times!!!!!!

"... he was mere inches away from killing his own daughter."

Boruto Gaiden is another proof of plot setup that goes nowhere. At that time I can't comprehend how on earth an author capable of producing one of the most successful manga all time, to come up with Boruto Gaiden.

There's no point to the story at all. lol. A father who has never visited his wife and kids for 12 years? A wife that has little recollection whether his husband wear a glasses or not? Let's not mention she pasted her photo on top of Karin's. There's zero thought process. Zero creativity to come up with compelling story. It further exposed us that Kishi is not as good as we thought him to be. No wonder the market corrects itself.

I have feelings about this of how they handled Sakura. And no matter how far I get from Naruto's botched ending, I think this will always be the most shocking and disappointing thing for me. 

No reader wants to see their favorite character and heroine of the series turned into a literally housewife in maids clothes for a man she's A) not married to, B) doesn't seem to care about her and C) doesn't want to see her or the child produced from apparently one night of sex (with no relationship).

It was such blatant Sakura bashing at the end. By all of them, Kishi included. He sold out his heroine. If anything, it should have been Hinata, the clan princess, at home dusting her family's memorabilia and playing the dutiful wifey. It's literally all her character was made for. Instead they took away all of Sakura's accomplishments and made her stay at home to take care of the Uchiha legacy that even Sasuke doesn't care about.

It was the ultimate scene of character destruction, and Kishimoto drew it.

Add to that the little cat-and-mouse game of did Sasuke really love her? Is Karin the mother? What they are really saying is 'look how low and desperate Sakura is to still chase after Sasuke even though he might have...possibly...probably got someone else pregnant. And now she's raising their child.' It was a gimmick to get people to read Boruto...but it's rooted in just more straight-up Sakura bashing. 

And even Naruto's nonsense speech about how you feel not what's real or not. What garbage. The guy who was regularly meeting with Sasuke, and who knew his supposed 'best friend' had left his former love interest high-and-dry with a baby and house payments. And yet he doesn't come right out and say to Sarada, "Sakura's your mom. Go home and stop hurting her feelings. She's got it hard enough since Sasuke left."

Instead his words still dance around the idea that Sarada is adopted. Total garbage from Naruto, and just more Sakura-bashing, only this time from out of the mouth of the one who said he loved her best.

You can not tell me that if they knew how popular SS was now, they would have written her this way!!! Right?!

Nobody gives a crap about Hinata or Naruto now....but the Sakura and Sasuke fans are rabid for her and for the ship. It's kinda like...uh, where ya been?!? Sakura was great before, when ya didn't care a bit about her! lol

But the morally grey, dark-haired character and the beautiful, strong heroine is soooo popular right now. Hello, Reylo much? Rhysand and Feyre from ACOTAR or Cardan from the Cruel Prince series?!

I've seen so much art about Sasuke and Sakura, so many little excerpts from their book (like where he gives her a ring), so many people saying that Sakura is their 'queen.' If they knew she was going to be this popular, and that a resurgence of SS was what was going to come out of Boruto, I think the creators would have taken an entirely different direction with Sakura. 

Kishimoto gave in to the Sakura haters and really tried to write her off at the end of the manga and the beginning of Boruto. But the SS fans have turned that over. 

Which shows that yes, they absolutely do not know how to write for their characters or even what their audience really wants. 

And Kishimoto is a terrible writer. Yes he was/is a good illustrator, and he comes up with scenes that have some dramatic plot twists. But when he really shined he had a editor with a strong sense of the whole storyline, and kept Kishimoto to that framework. When that editor left, it quickly turned into just a series of conflicts and resolutions. There was no more story.

So it doesn't surprise me that Boruto goes nowhere. After the battle with Pain, Naruto didn't go anywhere either. We just didn't know how bad it was yet. 

The fact that they bashed Sakura so badly, and yet she's turned out to be more popular than ever because of SS tells me they are still just winging it.

i was't telling them how to feel. If you wish to continue talking about it, go for it. I'm just surprised there's still anything to talk about at this point is all. 

I'm still writing fics about NS....so I'm constantly thinking about these things. lol! I'm always glad to know that other NS shippers are still thinking about it too, even so many years later. 

 

As long as Boruto keeps getting made, then the story will never end. 

Yes - It's easy to forget that Boruto is still drawing new fans to Naruto all the time. And if they go back and read the Naruto manga.... Well, they better be ready to have everything they think they know about Naruto and Sakura thrown up in the air. Cause you can't read the manga and not come out knowing that Boruto's got the wrong ships going on - lol

actually that might have gotten the point across with naruto

when you think about how brutal some of the scenes are — including the one where Itachi is going to pop Sasuke's eye right out of his head — it has never failed to surprise me at how weak Kishi becomes in the resolution. He just sweeps all that away. It's like he likes the gore and brutality, but can't let the good characters ever address how much if f'd them up, or hold the bad guys accountable. 

And remember, these scenes are in a 'kids manga.' (Which, btw, is also a reason NS wasn't allowed to happen. 'Kids manga,' not about romance.)

 

And the reason for that coolest guy/ really cool guy comment was, "Obito wanted to become hokage." so just sharing a dream is enough for Naruto to say that, "water under the bridge." Also, why did Obito started doing all these things? There was no Rin for him to kitten. Sorry to say, but an obsession with a person to that degree can't really mean anything else if you ask me, or they are your possession that you must have for the rest of your life and if you can't, no-one can.

 

Even leaving aside the theme of forgiveness, the message falls flat because Naruto forgives his enemies but doesn't change a damn thing and the story didn't show a damn thing that there is any progress in bettering the conditions that supposedly made the villains into villains in the first place. If you're gonna go that far as to say no one is born evil, then you have to follow through with it no matter how unrealistic the result is because that is what you wrote so you have to commit to it. Is there a point to a story where you got shot by someone, forgive them and saying "it wasn't their fault", then let them shoot you again? Same principle. The ninja world created a cycle of hatred through distrust and war that created suffering the story says and that suffering bred monsters that almost destroyed everything. So what has changed when you look at Boruto? Nothing. So not only is letting the villains getting away with the atrocities they've done disheartening to see, the entire message is completely pointless because Naruto did not address the root causes

Yeah, it would have been a relief to see Naruto go full ninja for a while. Become silent, deadly, dedicated — turn inward and become cold like Pain and cut off his friends and Sakura to join anbu — and then come out the otherside with a better understanding. But nope.

It's like all the things about a corrupt ninja world were forgotten in the end of Naruto. And Naruto doesn't solve it, even though he could have. His character is just locked into good-guy punching bag mode.

It is disheartening. Naruto also has an obligation to the readers to deliver a message about how to deal with traumatizing people who do unforgiveable things. That's part of why you read. How would this made-up character handle these crazy scenarios, and how can I handly my less-crazy but equally traumatizing real-life problems? By taking away that crucial part of the story — how he handles and moves on from these traumas — you take away Naruto as a character and replace him with a cardboard cutout...on the battlefield, standing beside Hinata at the wedding, sitting behind the Kage desk. And then Naruto's perspective becomes utterly pointless, because he's now become one of the people he was railing against the first two-thirds of the story.

I know it's been mentioned a couple times up the thread, but his attitude towards true criminals in the end is just totally ick. Let's take a moment and remember: 

Obito killed his father, stole his mother from her pregnancy bed, STRUNG HER UP BETWEEN TWO ROCKS and RIPPED A HOLE IN HER MIDDLE to pull out the kyuubi, which then wiped out half the people in the village before his parents died sealing into their minutes-old infant son. 

It's horrifically brutal. It's such a violation of a woman and a mother. How does Kishi address that? Eh, he has Naruto forgive his mother's murderer with breezy 'cool dude' speech about Obito. It's such a wholesale destruction of everything Naruto stands for. And until that moment, I didn't realize how much Kishimoto had lost his way with this story. But he did.

Imagine if Minato came to Naruto not as the Kage, but the way he looked when he died, with a bloody hole in the middle from where he was speared through by the kyuubi? 

Imagine if Kushina came to Naruto looking the way she did when she died? Standing there, blood dripping from her mouth, eyes with huge purple circles from exhaustion of labor, blood smeared down her legs from just giving birth, and a GIANT BLEEDING HOLE torn in her stomach from where the kyuubi was ripped out.... All this before being gutted by the kyuubi to save Naruto's life.....

Imagine if that Kushina was standing there, saying that she loved him, speaking through the blood that just won't stop bubbling out of her mouth.... 

How would Naruto feel about Obito then? Probably not a 'cool guy.'

Not to mention I still feel like outside influences from others to become what he is now, like Kakashi and Shikamaru since they NEVER wanted to call out or change the system that hurt them so damn much!
 

Yes, Kakashi and Shikamaru should have stepped up their roles in his life. Sasuke was never coming back. The future of Konoha rests with these three: two future Kages and the top adviser. So yeah. They should have already switched into leadership roles and been guiding Naruto ahead after Shippuden. No matter what shipping stuff happened. Did they? Nope. After shippuden, the idea that Naruto was growing towards being a better leader is laughable. He was doing nothing but chase Sasuke! Not bonding with Sakura, not changing the system, not preparing for his future.... Just Sasuke. And you're right, the people closest to him — all except Sakura!!! — never called him out on it.

 

Well and let's face it the big line is drawn from Naruto as the main protagonist...... Does he really develop at all throughout Part 2?  Yeah, here and there, but there's nothing drastic that showcases "Wow he's really developed...."  His ideology was tested against Pain yes, but it was never really a continous thing...

 

The biggest one to be always come back to Sasuke  "All that time you spent chasing after me, would've been better spent in training right, Naruto?" and you know what he's right.... that by itself should've been turmoil conflict for Naruto like what if "Sasuke is right? What exactly have I been doing for the last 2-3 years? Have I lost sight of what I desired?" and that could've been a really cool struggle to see in Naruto....

 

Even beyond that like when Naruto loses control and goes into his 4 tails state when he attack Sakura without realizing it.... There could've been something where He distances himself from Sakura because he sees what kind of a monster he can be, and that scares him because he doesn't want to hurt the people he cares about. 

 

None of that was present in Part 2, and that is honestly one of the most infuriating things about Naruto as a protagonist the more I look back on it. 

 

Gah that would have been so good. For Naruto to distance himself from Sakura because he realizes how bad and traumatizing his power can be, and through that he understands Sasuke better and why he had to stay gone. Something like that. Where Naruto walks Sasuke's path to spare Sakura, only to understand Sasuke better and find a way to redeem him. Would have been so good! Then when Sasuke returned at the end of the war, all of Naruto's efforts would have paid off.

But here's the biggest reveal. We don't name anything past the Save Gaara arc. We don't say anything like "Well after Shippuden came..." There are simply no more character arcs for Naruto. Just a long stream of filler chapters that just unspool until the end. So the development he so desperately needed to make him seem like a leader and a hero and Sakura's true love just never happens.

 

Linkara rant aside, I feel like there's a bigger issue to dig into here.

 

What was Naruto really about? What messages was it trying to pass on? Because on that front the work has always been a mess. Growth and maturity are thrown out the window whenever it's convenient, something we saw as far back as the beginning of the Chunin exam where even Kakashi talks about how things went back to normal after the Zabuza incident. The growth there did not stick. The idea of bonds is nonsensical considering how shallow the bond between Sasuke and Naruto actually was, and that's not even going into The Last making Naruto's most important bond the one he had with someone he never interacted with. Naruto does not learn how to lead to become Hokage, he never passes the Chunin exam that would have shown him reliable enough to shoulder more responsibility. Instead, it all becomes some social Darwinist BS where he's just soooo strong (Hell, I think the reason why so much Japanese media nowadays is calling out this might makes right mentality is because of how prevalent it used to be in shonen, with Naruto being one of the definitive examples), and he's just given power up after power up to detract from the idea of hard work beating natural talent, The truth doesn't matter either as Itachi is still left labelled a criminal, the Hyuuga family slavery is forgotten, Naruto's forgiveness isn't based on empathy but rather him seeing some aspect of himself in his enemies, he doesn't even challenge the system, and he raised a son who is in love with the idea of being Konoha's black ops doing jobs the village can not officially be tied to. And now to top it all off, he's become a crappy dad.

 

The story of Naruto has no real meaning, whatever messages the series could have had sold out a long time ago in order to milk it relentlessly. The series has nothing it really takes seriously, while leaving behind a slew of unfortunate implications. And when you think about what messages it might have passed on to the reader, that's a scary thought even beyond that what Hinata does is somehow considered love.

And I think that's one of the saddest aspects outside of the pairings aspect. That's one of them, sure. But it's just one of the entire plot of messages who were just thrown down the drain for the sake of money.

 

Fml, that's the issue: when some bunch of ppl want to make some dirty money they always throw down the drain good morals. And I'm like...? Isn't that a price too high to pay? Is it even worth for all the money in the world?

Idk man...

YESSSSS!

The version of Naruto that I like exists solely in fics and fan art! The manga simply unraveled and failed him. I don't reread the Naruto manga, even though parts were good, and I don't recommend it.

Looking back, it's shocking how much of the story revolved around Sasuke and the Uchihas. I honestly believe Kishi fell in love with Sasuke's character — the whole redemption arc — and was no longer interested in writing for his hero. So towards the end he was just giving Naruto challenges and power ups, over and over. No story arcs. The rest of the story moved around the Uchihas and their history. That tells you something's wrong.

Even completely selling out, Kishi could have still written a compelling story around Naruto. BUT HE DIDN'T. Naruto just looked sort of weak and sidelined by the end. Not the standout hero, but someone who was just waiting for his buddy return so that they could fight together. 

And he never regains hero status. He still is a mess timeskip at the end of the manga (which is told from sasuke's point-of-view btw!), and he's a mess in Boruto. He's like the worst verison of himself.

I always think that younger Naruto from the manga would HATE the way he turned out. He would hate older Naruto with a passion.

And that is the only thing about the ending that makes me happy....