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#53921 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 26 July 2022 - 10:24 PM

 

The problem I see with Kakashi is that he basically saw himself in Sasuke, rather than seeing Sasuke was his own person, just as he saw Obito in Naruto and Rin in Sakura, rather than seeing them for who they are, because he was stuck in the past due to the guilt he felt about getting Obito "killed" and then having to kill Rin when she was manipulated into being a Jinchuriki as part of Madara's plans to sway Obito to his side.

right but still he really could have stop sasuke at any time before that any real teacher would have 



#53922 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 27 July 2022 - 01:15 AM

right but still he really could have stop sasuke at any time before that any real teacher would have


Yeah, which is the big problem. He didn't act like a real teacher since he showed too much leniency and favoritism towards Sasuke, even trying to talk him out of his path at a time he said he would kill him, something he didn't put effort into.

#53923 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 27 July 2022 - 10:18 PM

Yeah, which is the big problem. He didn't act like a real teacher since he showed too much leniency and favoritism towards Sasuke, even trying to talk him out of his path at a time he said he would kill him, something he didn't put effort into.

agreed that's the big problem with kakashi. 

plus he taught naruto and sakura next to next 

pretty sure the reason there team made it that far was more luck than skill in the first half.

It's weird sakura in the start of part 2 had more training that naruto did



#53924 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 28 July 2022 - 05:24 AM

agreed that's the big problem with kakashi. 

plus he taught naruto and sakura next to next 

pretty sure the reason there team made it that far was more luck than skill in the first half.

It's weird sakura in the start of part 2 had more training that naruto did

 

Yeah. Naruto's best teacher if you ask me definitely goes to Yamato, since he tried to get Naruto to think of what he really wanted in terms of power, while Kakashi tended to look down on him even as he tried to help him and in spite of KNOWING he was Minato's son, and Jiraiya emphasized too much on power for Naruto and overreliance on Kurama's chakra without giving him finesse or refining various areas to make him more balanced. Iruka is even better because he always was encouraging to Naruto when he realized some of his mistakes with him even as he wanted to help him too as best he could.



#53925 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 28 July 2022 - 12:14 PM

 

Yeah. Naruto's best teacher if you ask me definitely goes to Yamato, since he tried to get Naruto to think of what he really wanted in terms of power, while Kakashi tended to look down on him even as he tried to help him and in spite of KNOWING he was Minato's son, and Jiraiya emphasized too much on power for Naruto and overreliance on Kurama's chakra without giving him finesse or refining various areas to make him more balanced. Iruka is even better because he always was encouraging to Naruto when he realized some of his mistakes with him even as he wanted to help him too as best he could.

agreed plus yamato didn't let naruto do what he wanted and he was a leader. pretty when sai was on the team it was better than before. since sai did work with naruto and sakura more than sasuke did well after the tenchi bridge.

but the thing is naruto never learns from his mistakes he just makes them all over again 



#53926 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 28 July 2022 - 03:25 PM

Kakashi is not a bad teacher because he "favored Sasuke." The only thing he taught Sasuke that he didn't teach the others was the chidori, and the reason for that is to look at the situation. Sasuke was going up against Gaara an incredibly powerful genin that defeated Lee, the prized student of his rival Gai. He had to focus on him or Sasuke would be killed. Yes, he shoved Naruto off to Ebisu but it was very likely that the water walking was what he was going to train the team in anyways. Which he considered fine because, Neji was unlikely to kill him. Look at both fights Neji had during the chunin exam, he constantly requested the matched be call in his favor once it was obvious he was more skilled than his opponent, so he would not seriously injure or kill his opponent if the match went on, and of course both refused. So if Naruto lost he would live if seriously injure at worse. Sasuke would be killed. Which one do you focus on?

 

Granted this is somewhat the fault of the story rushing. It was implied before the chunin exam that Kakashi mostly trained the main cast as a team. Granted it would have been better if he had done more individual training. As Naruto's education before joining the team was atrocious and Sakura lacked a specialty.

 

Now granted I did point out...awhile back how Kakashi is a bad teacher, he does not adjust his training on an individual level. Look at how he taught the team tree climbing and Naruto wind release as well as the shadow clones. He begins with a long technical explanation of what he is teaching them. Naruto doesn't get it. Kakashi give another simpler but still very technical explanation. Naruto doesn't get it. Kakashi tries simplifying again, and Naruto still doesn't get it. Finally, an exasperated Kakashi shows him what they will be doing, he finally gets it, and Kakashi gives one last explanation that Naruto also gets.

 

Naruto needs to be shown what his is suppose to be doing, he doesn't get things when it only explain to him on a conceptual level.

 

Jiraiya was able to teach Naruto the Rasengan by showing him the steps and letting him figure it out. Granted with a few tips here and there.

Asuma gave Naruto a explanation then a demonstration then finished off his explanation.

Fukasaku had Gamakichi with him to give him a simplified explanation. 

Killer Bee seemed to be able to connect with Naruto.

 

Yamato wasn't a teacher he was a captain. The closest thing to a lesson he gave Naruto was a dress-down where he told him, he needed to find his own strength instead of relying on Kurama.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 01 August 2022 - 07:07 PM.


#53927 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 29 July 2022 - 12:11 AM

If kishimoto had given arcs for part 1 before the chunin exams, I would of liked to see him teach sakura genjustu

#53928 catsi563

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Posted 29 July 2022 - 12:54 AM

There is also a personality thing tio Kakashi favoring Sasuke, Kakashi said and it was well established that he and Sasuke are very much alike. again with the parallels prevalent throughout the story. 


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#53929 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 29 July 2022 - 05:11 AM

There is also a personality thing to Kakashi favoring Sasuke, Kakashi said and it was well established that he and Sasuke are very much alike. again with the parallels prevalent throughout the story. 

The time he said that was to hype up the chidori, which was going to be Sasuke signature attack from now on. Just because people have similar personalities does not mean they will be favored, hell the opposite could happen. If I were to say Kakashi favorite student it would be Naruto because he is his sensei's son, his personality is the most like his dead teammate who he had grown to idolize, and he was the most interesting. Him being similar to Sasuke just meant he knew somethings to watch out for.



#53930 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 29 July 2022 - 06:37 AM

agreed plus yamato didn't let naruto do what he wanted and he was a leader. pretty when sai was on the team it was better than before. since sai did work with naruto and sakura more than sasuke did well after the tenchi bridge.

but the thing is naruto never learns from his mistakes he just makes them all over again 

 

That got to me too for sure about how it wasn't done,



#53931 tricksie

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Posted 01 August 2022 - 01:13 AM

The time he said that was to hype up the chidori, which was going to be Sasuke signature attack from now on. Just because people have similar personalities does not mean they will be favored, hell the opposite could happen. If I were to say Kakashi favorite student it would be Naruto because he is his sensei's son, his personality is the most like his dead teammate who he had grown to idolize, and he was the most interesting. Him being similar to Sasuke just meant he knew somethings to watch out for.

Obito was also so much like Kushina, who Naruto completely takes after too!  :D

 

I have a head canon that Kakashi was actually closer to Kushina than Minato, because they were both orphans in a way. Minato was a strong, focused leader that he wanted to be like, but that Kushina was the one who kept young Kakashi grounded and empathized with him. She was like a big sister to him. 

 

Also...*sigh*... way more tragic that way considering just how many people Kakashi has lost in his life! ugh! Kushina as a big sister would have been just another terrible loss....

 

Anyway, still my head canon!  :lol:



#53932 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 01 August 2022 - 03:00 AM

Obito was also so much like Kushina, who Naruto completely takes after too!  :D

 

I have a head canon that Kakashi was actually closer to Kushina than Minato, because they were both orphans in a way. Minato was a strong, focused leader that he wanted to be like, but that Kushina was the one who kept young Kakashi grounded and empathized with him. She was like a big sister to him. 

 

Also...*sigh*... way more tragic that way considering just how many people Kakashi has lost in his life! ugh! Kushina as a big sister would have been just another terrible loss....

 

Anyway, still my head canon!  :lol:

I don't think close is the right word more Kushina likely teased him a lot, which he hated because he wanted to be taken seriously, and only remembered it fondly after everyone was dead. But I see Kakashi spending more time with Minato both because he is his team's sensei & the closest thing he has to a father figure after his dad passed. We never really see Kakashi fondly think about Kushina when he watches Naruto. While Kakashi is always reading Jiraiya's books which Minato was stated in the databooks and in flashback to enjoy...though I think the Icha Icha series came out after his death. So, a very know habit of his came most likely from fondly remembering Minato reading the tale of the gusty ninja and trying to imitate it. Kushina's hobby seemed to be cooking (also pranking and talking with people) and we never see as scene of Kakashi making a meal for his team to try to bring them closer through that...though he could be a bit trollish; so maybe he picked up that from her. When Naruto does something it either he find it amusing it, annoying, he sees Minato, or as he said to Obito he saw a lot of him in Naruto.

 

Again, Kakashi never really thinks about Kushina which means he was at least more close to Minato and cared more about him than her. The people we first heard her from was in a conversation between Jiraiya and Tsunade. Jiraiya talking about how much Naruto is like Minato clearly fondly remember training both, while Tsunade points out he is only like Minato in appearance in every other way he is Kushina. That implies some level of closeness between Kushina and Tsunade and they likely have some form of bond probably due to them both spending time with Lady Mito. She the only one Kushina seemed close to besides Mikoto her best friend, in story. Which either means either everyone she was close to is dead or just not involved in the plot. For a bit of head-canon and using ladygt fan-comics. I see Kushina being friends with the mothers of team seven when they were young. Kushina was the tomboy with a crush on a boy, Mikoto was the polite reserved one, and Mebuki was a punk that straightened up later in life. I see Kizashi as one of Minato's early rivals as they were both from un-prominent clans that wanted to become Hokage. However Minato's potential was spotted by Jiraiya while Kizashi was not leading to him to be completely left in the dust after a few years. Eventually, realizing that becoming Hokage was out of his reach, just retiring early, starting a business, and marry Mebuki once she finally grew up enough to say yes... and started to openly enjoy his bad jokes. Fugaku didn't seemed to be that close with Minato to me. So he was more of an unacknowledged rival as he would claim he wanted to take up the role of chief of the military police, when he secretly wished to become Hokage.

 

Kushina didn't seem to have a team despite her age and rank. Though that is likely because like always, Kishimoto didn't put much consideration into backstory unless its to explain something happening in the plot. Though a good excuse is that because she was the village's demon container and the last Uzumaki seal master she was too much of a target to be allowed a genin team. So she adopted Minato's trying to bond with each one, and if he ever complained she would probably joke that they are practice for when she has kids of her own.

 

From what I recall, Obito was her favorite, in the anime, to heighten the tragedy that he killed her along with her husband and orphaned their son leaving him to take up her role as Kurama's container...with all the suffering she knew would come from that.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 01 August 2022 - 04:42 PM.


#53933 tricksie

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Posted 02 August 2022 - 07:16 PM

I don't think close is the right word more Kushina likely teased him a lot, which he hated because he wanted to be taken seriously, and only remembered it fondly after everyone was dead. But I see Kakashi spending more time with Minato both because he is his team's sensei & the closest thing he has to a father figure after his dad passed. We never really see Kakashi fondly think about Kushina when he watches Naruto. While Kakashi is always reading Jiraiya's books which Minato was stated in the databooks and in flashback to enjoy...though I think the Icha Icha series came out after his death. So, a very know habit of his came most likely from fondly remembering Minato reading the tale of the gusty ninja and trying to imitate it. Kushina's hobby seemed to be cooking (also pranking and talking with people) and we never see as scene of Kakashi making a meal for his team to try to bring them closer through that...though he could be a bit trollish; so maybe he picked up that from her. When Naruto does something it either he find it amusing it, annoying, he sees Minato, or as he said to Obito he saw a lot of him in Naruto.

 

Again, Kakashi never really thinks about Kushina which means he was at least more close to Minato and cared more about him than her. The people we first heard her from was in a conversation between Jiraiya and Tsunade. Jiraiya talking about how much Naruto is like Minato clearly fondly remember training both, while Tsunade points out he is only like Minato in appearance in every other way he is Kushina. That implies some level of closeness between Kushina and Tsunade and they likely have some form of bond probably due to them both spending time with Lady Mito. She the only one Kushina seemed close to besides Mikoto her best friend, in story. Which either means either everyone she was close to is dead or just not involved in the plot. For a bit of head-canon and using ladygt fan-comics. I see Kushina being friends with the mothers of team seven when they were young. Kushina was the tomboy with a crush on a boy, Mikoto was the polite reserved one, and Mebuki was a punk that straightened up later in life. I see Kizashi as one of Minato's early rivals as they were both from un-prominent clans that wanted to become Hokage. However Minato's potential was spotted by Jiraiya while Kizashi was not leading to him to be completely left in the dust after a few years. Eventually, realizing that becoming Hokage was out of his reach, just retiring early, starting a business, and marry Mebuki once she finally grew up enough to say yes... and started to openly enjoy his bad jokes. Fugaku didn't seemed to be that close with Minato to me. So he was more of an unacknowledged rival as he would claim he wanted to take up the role of chief of the military police, when he secretly wished to become Hokage.

 

Kushina didn't seem to have a team despite her age and rank. Though that is likely because like always, Kishimoto didn't put much consideration into backstory unless its to explain something happening in the plot. Though a good excuse is that because she was the village's demon container and the last Uzumaki seal master she was too much of a target to be allowed a genin team. So she adopted Minato's trying to bond with each one, and if he ever complained she would probably joke that they are practice for when she has kids of her own.

 

From what I recall, Obito was her favorite, in the anime, to heighten the tragedy that he killed her along with her husband and orphaned their son leaving him to take up her role as Kurama's container...with all the suffering she knew would come from that.

 

Yeah, like I said, head canon. I'm not ever re-reading Naruto again — just makes me angry —so I don't know the fine details as well anymore. But it always felt like if Kishi planned for Kakashi to be the one the 'raise' Naruto, then it makes more sense to have him with the connection.

 

I remember now that Obito was like the Naruto on the team. But seriously.... the kid turns into a psychopathic killer when he's like 15, 18? And kills both of Minato and Kushina in such a horrific way trying to steal Naruto. It should never have been written that way that she identified with the kid who strung her up and ripped a hole in her stomach just a few years later. 

 

If Naruto were a movie, then young Obito would always be accompanied by 'he might be a villain' music!! :lol:

 

As for Kushina, it's actually pretty disappointing that she wasn't given a more active role. Like, why? She would have been the most powerful shinobi in Konoha right? And yet she can't even get her own team? But Naruto goes on to become Hokage with the same power? Kushina should have been a super bad ass in her own right, standing equal to Minato in terms of village power, and absolutely on her own in terms of lethal power. And it would have been interesting to see her interacting with other hosts. Like maybe there was some kind of peace among the jinchuriki before Obito shattered everything. 

 

And, though I'm not pro-Uchiha anything, I can understand why they would have been pissed that the only guy from an apparently dead clan (Namikaze) gets the Kage role, while this huge clan of powerful shinobis gets passed over. 

 

Didn't the Third want Orochimaru for the role, then Jiraiya. And when Jiraiya backed out only THEN it went to Minato? Which makes it kind of funny the Tsunade has to go back and pick up the pieces. The one who wasn't even asked to do the job! :lol:

 

edit: so much of this is rhetorical too. Just thinking back over the pre-Naruto era really reveals what a mess it was. And Kishi could have tied it all together with Naruto's story – forgave his rival, succeeded where his dad failed, abolished the shinobi system that created these problems, etc. etc. Instead he just made it worse by leaving Naruto like a grown-up kid, with nothing at all resolved.



#53934 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 03 August 2022 - 07:29 PM

And, though I'm not pro-Uchiha anything, I can understand why they would have been pissed that the only guy from an apparently dead clan (Namikaze) gets the Kage role, while this huge clan of powerful shinobis gets passed over. 

 

In the case of it with the Uchiha, Tricksie, I blame some of that on Tobirama's prejudice against them since he carried on the bitterness of his father and passed it on from all the fighting with the Uchiha, while Hashirama wanted legitimate peace for them, even when Madara snapped and wanted to fight him when the Uchiha chose to side with Hashirama as the first Hokage, while he was willing to let Madara do it before he accepted his role. And that prejudice kept spreading into some others, like Homaru and Koharu, Hiruzen's comrades before he became the third Hokage. And we saw Hiruzen tried to have some peace with the Uchiha, but the bitterness they felt at the prejudice is what led Sasuke and Itachi's dad, Fugaku, to attempt a coup, being willing to use his sons as spears against the Leaf, and how Danzo was no different, sicne not only did he not believe in the Uchiha really, but he coveted their Sharingan for himself, like how one of the Ultimate Ninja Storm games showed he stole Hisui's Sharingan before he could attempt to use Kotoamatsukami to stop the coup.


Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 03 August 2022 - 07:33 PM.


#53935 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 03 August 2022 - 07:43 PM

Yeah, like I said, head canon. I'm not ever re-reading Naruto again — just makes me angry —so I don't know the fine details as well anymore. But it always felt like if Kishi planned for Kakashi to be the one the 'raise' Naruto, then it makes more sense to have him with the connection.

 

I remember now that Obito was like the Naruto on the team. But seriously.... the kid turns into a psychopathic killer when he's like 15, 18? And kills both of Minato and Kushina in such a horrific way trying to steal Naruto. It should never have been written that way that she identified with the kid who strung her up and ripped a hole in her stomach just a few years later. 

 

If Naruto were a movie, then young Obito would always be accompanied by 'he might be a villain' music!! :lol:

 

As for Kushina, it's actually pretty disappointing that she wasn't given a more active role. Like, why? She would have been the most powerful shinobi in Konoha right? And yet she can't even get her own team? But Naruto goes on to become Hokage with the same power? Kushina should have been a super bad ass in her own right, standing equal to Minato in terms of village power, and absolutely on her own in terms of lethal power. And it would have been interesting to see her interacting with other hosts. Like maybe there was some kind of peace among the jinchuriki before Obito shattered everything. 

 

And, though I'm not pro-Uchiha anything, I can understand why they would have been pissed that the only guy from an apparently dead clan (Namikaze) gets the Kage role, while this huge clan of powerful shinobis gets passed over. 

 

Didn't the Third want Orochimaru for the role, then Jiraiya. And when Jiraiya backed out only THEN it went to Minato? Which makes it kind of funny the Tsunade has to go back and pick up the pieces. The one who wasn't even asked to do the job! :lol:

 

edit: so much of this is rhetorical too. Just thinking back over the pre-Naruto era really reveals what a mess it was. And Kishi could have tied it all together with Naruto's story – forgave his rival, succeeded where his dad failed, abolished the shinobi system that created these problems, etc. etc. Instead he just made it worse by leaving Naruto like a grown-up kid, with nothing at all resolved.

The big problem again is Kishimoto did not really give much thought to the backstory unless he had to.

 

...I think I explain this when you asked about Naruto's clan but Kushina didn't really exist to Kishimoto till his wife asked about her. Then to please her he made kushina like her just as Sakura had become like her. Kakashi was already developed long before she was made, so she couldn't really effect his character. Kushina didn't seem to like the Kyuubi and wouldn't use its powers. So she wasn't as strong as Naruto. She fought most likely with her chakra chains and her clans sealing techniques.

 
"the kid turns into a psychopathic killer when he's like 15" To be fair, that is a lot of the cast. Again, it was suppose to increase the tragedy of his fall. He was suppose to be the ultimate what if Naruto turned evil, but it was dropped by the end because that all but states that Sakura was the most important person to Naruto and losing her would be the thing to make him fall. Obito was a lot like Naruto and therefor he was a lot like Kushina, and what was Kushina suppose to be some psychic the knew he would turn evil so she shouldn't interact with him?
 

Tsunade didn't want it. She wanted either her brother or her lover to become Hokage. The third wasn't going to force it on her. Which left Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and anyone else high ranking enough that wanted the position. Jiriaya had the Old Toad's prophecy to think about as well as his own aversions to the role so he supported his student taking the role instead.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 04 August 2022 - 05:20 PM.


#53936 BlueStarSaber

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Posted Yesterday, 09:12 PM

"the kid turns into a psychopathic killer when he's like 15" To be fair, that is a lot of the cast. Again, it was suppose to increase the tragedy of his fall. He was suppose to be the ultimate what if Naruto turned evil, but it was dropped by the end because that all but states that Sakura was the most important person to Naruto and losing her would be the thing to make him fall. Obito was a lot like Naruto and therefor he was a lot like Kushina, and what was Kushina suppose to be some psychic the knew he would turn evil so she shouldn't interact with him?

 

You know part of me always wondered why Obito when he was naruto's enemy didn't try to go after sakura to try and break him, since the team 7 similarities to his team were obvious but it was never brought up. Part of me wonders if kishimoto was originally supposed to make a situation where it looks like Sakura has supposedly "died" in a similar manner to Rin in front Naruto in went Naruto begins to feel despair, but doesn't break in the end to help make obito realize that he gave up to quickly or something. for then Sakura to turn out to be alive due to her medical justu. Or obito when good tells Sakura about himself, rin and Kakashi to her and why she is important to naruto etc and dies protecting her saving the rin of the next genration so that naruto doesn't end up like him. 

 

Though I assume when Studio Pierott and the editors forced their Hianata agenda they made Kishimoto drop it and her involment in the obito battle and instead made him kill Neji to have Naruto feel that despair and have Hianata "save" him from it.



#53937 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted Today, 09:41 AM

 

You know part of me always wondered why Obito when he was naruto's enemy didn't try to go after sakura to try and break him, since the team 7 similarities to his team were obvious but it was never brought up. Part of me wonders if kishimoto was originally supposed to make a situation where it looks like Sakura has supposedly "died" in a similar manner to Rin in front Naruto in went Naruto begins to feel despair, but doesn't break in the end to help make obito realize that he gave up to quickly or something. for then Sakura to turn out to be alive due to her medical justu. Or obito when good tells Sakura about himself, rin and Kakashi to her and why she is important to naruto etc and dies protecting her saving the rin of the next genration so that naruto doesn't end up like him. 

 

Though I assume when Studio Pierott and the editors forced their Hianata agenda they made Kishimoto drop it and her involment in the obito battle and instead made him kill Neji to have Naruto feel that despair and have Hianata "save" him from it.

 

I agree on what you said, Blue. Or do something like in a Superman story from years ago, "Ending Battle". In it, Superman had to deal with Manchester Black, a previous enemy who led a super team called the Elite, and Black had Clark running ragged by sending tons of supervillains after people who knew him in his regular life, and then Black came to Lois, making it look like he killed her, all because he wanted Clark to be exposed as a "fraud" just because he never believed Clark was the kind of person who really was not about killing and the like, and when Clark said he refused to kill Black, this is what was said.
 

Black: Lemme square this one up... while you were playing "Cowboys an' Idiots", I came into your house and KILLED your wife... AND YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THE GUTS TO HIT ME?
Clark: I didn't say that. I said I'm not going to kill you. If that's what you wanted... you lose.
 
And leading Clark to say how vengeance is not justice. One reason it works so well is because Clark is sticking to his guns. Though what people don't see with Injustice is that when Clark killed Joker, he was wrought with guilt because he felt responsible for killing Lois and their son, as well as millions in Metropolis, but here, even if Black had made Clark feel Lois was dead, he was driven to be able to uphold his beliefs, to not cave into what Black wanted him to do, and to be the hero he is.
 
I can see something like that in Naruto if it was done right, instead of what the editors and Studio Pierrot and the mess we have currently just because they thought they knew better when they didn't.

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, Today, 09:41 AM.





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