Bail o' Lies

That would not surprise me at all, I've seen interviews with writers for the Disney/Marvel shows that happened after Endgame, and one of the requirements for getting the job was to know nothing about the source material.

And to those who watched those shows you saw how badly they were.

Hollywood in the last couple of years hired activists instead of people who know how to do the job. Obviously not the whole of Hollywood.

If the movie does see the light of day, I have zero hope for it being even decent, not to mention good.

 

It's a problem old as time, that people can't take any responsibility for their own screw-ups. What's worse with Hollywood is that they even went as far as attacking the fans.

Hollywood writers and directors have grown to hate any source material.

Most people think it is because they want to create their own stories not just adapt others. The problem is every time they are given the chance to do their own stories they are sheer garbage. Because they refuse to learn how to write from reading the stories that are already written, their morals are the messed up depravity that is only really accepted in the bubble of LA, and they can't be sincere about anything everything has to be ironic deconstruction meta commentary that subvert expectations with millennial style irreverent dialogue. Which people have already grown to hate because they keep putting that into IP they loved, so why would they watch something new that has everything they dislike? So their new stuff always fails. Which is why they hate and attack fanbases.

However by this point, they are not just destroying the stories people love, they are attacking the audience itself.

This led to a never ending cycle that has led to the decline of Hollywood in recent years, and the rise of alternative sources of media. As both, the audience is not watching their stuff anymore, and investors/producers are looking at those medias for profit. Not at awful Hollywood garbage, that has to go through constant reshoots because they can't get it right the first time anymore. So anything they can get their hands on of those alternative media, they will destroy it out of spite. The only way to make sure a Hollywood movie is made properly and faithful to the source material now a days. Is if there is a producer invested and powerful enough to force them to tell the story properly and force reshoots till they do. That is why Sonic, Nintendo, and One Piece have had successful western adaptations.

YUP. Naruto is a simplistic manga for simplistic morons I say. You are either a reader for the greatest fictional couple ever made, Hinata Huyga-chan-megami-hime-sama and her vicarious cup of courage turned boy toy trophy husband, OR you are an illiterate Buffoon for not seeing the true moral and message of the story was the former. Naruto is a simple story for simps, TG FOR THAT. *sarcasm*

I lost count of the number of times on this site alone I have done a page by page of a scene to show, what the scene was suppose to convey.

For example. What was the one I did last year... in June. The Sasuke telling Naruto to focus on sealing Kaguya.

My reading: "While yes, Sasuke was correct in a pragmatic sense. However, he was wrong as he went too far in telling Naruto to leave Sakura and Kakashi to just die. As it was immoral, it would negatively affect Naruto, and they can still be of use even if they can't seal Kaguya. Also, even Sasuke knows he was wrong, as Naruto was able to defeat his argument by just bringing up the Wave arc. This was to show Sasuke is still not reformed and Team 7 is not back together despite them fighting alongside each other."

Reddit's reading. "Sasuke is completely right." "...Oh and he still cares about Sakura deep down, he just won't admit it." When, they think for a second and realize he was advocating throwing Sakura into magma. Therece's biggest disappointment of Naruto, was Sasuke not just grabbing Sakura and throwing her into the magma himself. Most romantic SS moment that could possibly happen.   

That's what you are dealing with when other people read Naruto. You are lucky if they understand even surface level.

Simple or not, the reading comprehension is STILL f-ed up because many fans and the people BTS complained about and for Hinata, as like she was really that important to the franchise. When we know in actuality, she wasn't.

That because they want Hinata to be important not because she is. Westerners have been taught to think only with feelings. So they don't think about anything too much so their easier to control and convince as long as you know how to manipulate their feelings.

Fair enough

Yahagi Kosuke comments on western fans
https://x.com/DBZimr...774946712686829

 

"We've been reading manga for a long time, so we tend to read deeper into what makes manga interesting. But many people overseas don't understand Japanese manga. I think that's probably because they don't have literacy or reading comprehension. So, ultimately, I think that Naruto doesn't require that kind of reading comprehension."

Sounds like he is saying people like Naruto over other manga because it is simple. Would help to know what the question was or the interview.

OK. It was an interview in 2019 on a radio show called Izakaya: Denfaminicogamer. And he was asked why was Naruto more popular than One Piece overseas? Answer. it is simpler.

https://news.denfami...iew/191227f#i-6 Supposedly, it is in here.

Well, I'm not going to disagree with the reading comprehension.

This is not a new statement. Kishimoto has been saying stuff like this since the ending. This was always his justification for it happening beyond "she is popular and what the fans want while Sakura wasn't."

SP saw Hinata as the perfect woman that deserved Naruto as she deserved to be the heroine of the story. So, they wrote the Last to show that their Princess-Goddess Hinata-Hime-sama was the most perfect woman that was entitled to Naruto. He was her prize for being so perfect.

Kishimoto never got the appeal of Hinata. She wasn't his type and the people pushing her onto him would never explained to him why she should be the heroine other than she more popular than Sakura, she is prettier than her, fans like her, and she liked Naruto the longest so deserved him. Because the real answer is they love her absolute devotion, submissiveness, and no effort to obtain her. So, he needed his own reason for why Hinata should end up with Naruto? After, SP's staff pressured him to kill off Neji (the real character that was in the way of nH happening) her original storyline died with him. Leaving only her affection for Naruto. He saw that as pathetic and pitied her so agreed to put them together.

SP saw Hinata as perfect, Kishimoto saw her as pathetic. These views clash and helped make the mess that was the ending.

SP had nH's wedding be the end of the anime therefor the goal of Naruto all along was really to get together with Hinata instead of becoming Hokage and changing the ninja system's problems surpassing all those that previously held the title. The Last was to show how perfect she was and that she deserved a perfect life.

Kishimoto at the ending only had them together in front of Neji's grave implying Naruto was getting together with her to honor his sacrifice. And the relationship was set up by him which showed Naruto who focused on his job as Hokage was as distant to Hinata as Sasuke was to Sakura. The Sasuke that went out of his way to avoid Sakura for 12 years. Which is why both kids have daddy issues.

SS is still only happened because once Sakura lost her status as the Heroine he needed to put her somewhere and SS was popular with some fans; and nothing deeper than that because he dislikes the pairing. nH was the one he needed to be convinced to happened and once he was SS followed just to put Sakura somewhere.

https://thatparkplac...g-about-the-ip/

Rumor: Lionsgate’s Live-Action Naruto Film Is “A Complete Disaster” With Producers Not Knowing “Anything About The IP”

A rumor claims that Lionsgate’s long-gestating live-action Naruto film is a “complete disaster” with producers not knowing “anything about the IP.”

If true.

Guess Kishimoto trusted Hollywood, he is a fan of Hollywood movies, and didn't keep an eye on it like Oda. Problem is most Hollywood hates Japanese entertainment and blame it for them losing viewers. Since they are not going to self reflect.

.... It's a good thing I don't read American Comics then

Not many do now a days. How I understand it, after the 2000's they had lost many of the greats, and were left with mostly the mediocre who were living off the legacy of their betters. Then, comic movies took off, so you had a lot of nobodies try to use comics to worm and weasel their way into Hollywood. They couldn't come up with any interesting characters or stories. So, they just went "famous comic book character but now a minority." How that turned out? Well, Disney MCU is trying to adapt those now, but they never made any story or backstories for their new legacy characters. Just, "famous comic book character but now a minority," and hope that would be enough.

Both MHA and One Punch Man were very important for transferring many the lingers dissatisfied comic fans into manga fans.

In other news... Robert Downey Jr.  is gonna play Dr. Doom. I love RDJ, but Dr. Doom?

Hey, he only has to do one movie and after that he can just do the voice acting.

This is also likely do to a combination of lack of famous actors to play the role and the ones available/willing to. Disney hasn't really been producing hits recently. Star Wars is pretty much a black mark on your resume with only years wasted, Pixar isn't what it used to be, people are getting sick of the live action adaptions, they can't even do a classic Disney princess story right anymore, and the MCU -barring a few movies- was done with Endgame. For example, Disney was desperate to get Jenna Ortega* to take on several roles and even built movies around the characters they wanted her to play, and she told them, "no, working with Disney would be detrimental for her career at the moment."

*From what I understand they: wanted her to be the lead in the next Pirates of the Caribbean replacing Johney Depp's star power, they wanted her to be a major MCU character leading the next three phases, they wanted her in Star Wars, she was suppose to be in a Pixar movie with a character based off her, they wanted her to voice a new Disney Princess and/or they wanted her to be one of the remaining Disney Princess in a live action adaptation. She turned down all of those.

We have no idea how the tmnt writers feel about sakura, for all we know they hate ss as much we do

If they did, they wouldn't be selected to work on it. They probably been informed that SS happens and given an understanding of the characters. So it will probably be what therece thinks SS is, Sasuke has feelings for Sakura but doesn't like showing it; instead of he honestly doesn't care for her.

At best, it will just be part 1. As in, Naruto has a crush on Sakura, she has a crush on Sasuke, and Hinata is unimportant. Most likely, it will be nH/SS with the turtles pushing/helping Naruto with his girl troubles with Hinata.

Have low expectations going in, so you are pleasantly surprised if they are not the case. Fantasizing about the ideal situation for a corporate cash grab like this will only lead to disappointment.

Oh this came out yesterday...eh, no one paying me to be on time for this. Surprisingly a lot has happen since the last chapter. There was a Debate on CNN that by all right should end Biden's campaign, and someone tried to assassinate Trump with him getting an iconic photo from it.

But since people are going complain about politics if I talk about that. I'm going to do what I originally planned on doing with this chapter. Is Boruto worse than the Acolyte? I honestly hope it isn't.

Summary Time: Chapter 12...A full year of this now. Title: Thorn Soul Bulb...what?

Cover page is the Clone...my god her face looks awful, she looks like a blow up doll. Also, wasn't her hair purple? I recall her design in the anime pretty much being different shades of purple. Why is it now blue? Is this to make her more like Hinata?

Chapter starts with the cast reacting to Bolt's appearance...him coming in to save Salad, not how goofy his design is. He puts down his sister next to Salad and ask Konohamaru to keep her safe...why did you put her down next to Salad then? Does he not believe Salad can take care of someone right next to her?

Tree-Sasuke attacks. Bolt uses a wind attack...I think. There are no visual cue to show the attack so it just looks like a force push. Tree-Sasuke goes into the belt markings.

Back to Nail and Mustard. Mustard contacts the sensor division with their permanently active telepathy line to ask where is everyone while Nail just looks at Tree-Jenga.

Back to Bolt. Konohamaru chews out Bolt because he is still under the effects of omnipotence. Salad tells him to focus on their current enemy. Oh so that's why Kodaichi's insert is still up, he is part of the sensor division and Bolt asks him to sense for Tree-Sasuke, he also chews Bolt out. Then Salad asks about if Tree-Sasuke relates to Sasuke being stuck in a tree, and since info has not been spread at all this is the first time Konohamaru has heard of it. And wonders if this is the same thing that happened to Moegi.

....Bolt informs them that they need to beat Tree-Sasuke to free Sasuke, and Konohamaru wants to know how he would know this. Good question. I don't know how he would know that when the Tree-People only formed like an hour ago in story. I guess Bolt read the script. Normally, yes beating these do free the person, but the characters aren't suppose to know that at the start. So there is drama in, "wait if we kill them what happens to the person imprisoned?" Clearly, they aren't bothering with that.

Thankfully Tree-Sasuke was nice enough to wait for this info dump to be over before attacking. He does that by sending out some nudist. Fight. Fight. Fight. Desperately trying to make Bolt look cool. Salad attacks one and Tree-Sasuke pops out of the Nudist to eat her...now before you ask, why is the person they are after fighting? That's because Bolt told her to while telling the two that are not targets to back up. Why...probably so this could happen. So Bolt can save her.

Bolt lands a hit and we see how the tree-people heal. They go back to their base and absorb some of the world tree roots. Once he heals he pops out and does something?...Oh, he put more marking on the ground through his eye...

Salad see they need to bait him, so suggest Bolt fly and wait for him to go for her again to attack. Bolt decides that's stupid for some reason, he is not going to listen to a woman, and instead he going to use a full power Uzuhiko...that stupid vertigo attack? What is he going to see if the tree-people can throw up?

Oh it clear that they know their new signature attack was seen as lame in its first showing, because it was as lame as it was overhyped. So they are trying to re-explain again and hope its cooler now. It still uses the centrifugal force/rotation and the planets chakra (nature's chakra like sage mode but trying to treat as something new or different) to power it. So same as before they just hope this new blast will make it look cooler. Its power is apparently limitless if Bolt charges it for long enough. Oh Wait! They did add a restriction, he needs both feet on the ground to charge it.

Konohamaru uses his rasen-barrier to protect Bolt. Bolt whines about him not protecting the daughter, he argues back with he thinks this is more important, and there are already two people with her. Salad is grabbed...and somehow uses chidori stream to stun Tree-Sasuke and then pull him out of the belt...

Bolt fires his Uzuhiko which they try to make it impressive. It nearly one-shots Tree-Sasuke. He nearly escapes but finally Nail does something useful and shrinks the belts so he can't escape. Then he finishes him off. Leaving only the "Thorn Soul Bulb," which Bolt grabs and ask Clone Jiraiya for confirmation. I guess if they feed that to Sasuke he will be released. How do they know this? Again, I don't know. Tree-Jenga intervenes from long range to protect his colleague, knocks down Bolt, the Bulb flies to him, and Tree-Jenga decides Bolt needs to die due to knowing about the Bulb.

...How is this worse than the acolyte?

Hello, Bail!

it is always a pleasure to read your posts!

 

Absolutely. they wanted their cake and eat it. I agree.

it's just that I didn't know what the initial idea was.
The fact that the first step was taken out of a feeling of doormatism (really childish, come to think of it) came to me while reading a blog in which I participate, where written testimonies of ways of working within anime production are reported. I was very struck, while reading these excerpts, by the testimony of an animator.

He reported that, in an anime production, the decision of one fairly powerful person can decide the fate of an entire work.

 

Therefore, thinking about how then hime-sama-kun-dono-san-chan is defended, hailed, and justified in the various versions of Naruto-Boruto, I really began to think that it was the excessive devotion to that character the main reason for the decision that started it all. But then, of course, one also had to try to drag along as many readers as possible....

There, that was the sore point. How can you raise a new and large generation of readers when you treat your readers as morons as these producers did.

I must admit, however, that with some of the fandom they did it. I'm talking about the ones I see justifying this stylistic and narrative horror at every turn.
And then I wonder if they are not really trying to build up an audience that is completely devoid of critical sense, or if they simply despise the audience they are addressing.

The anime staff lusted after Nana Mizuki and the idealized woman they created in Hinata Hyuga.

Hinata was just originally a minor character that Kishimoto cared so little about he didn't even given her much of a story. First, to the character beaten up by Naruto's opponent to make the reader more invested in the tournament fight, and then, to marry that person to show how far they had come due to Naruto's influence. His lack of care meant he didn't interfere when he should have; when they started adding traits and scenes to make her "Naruto's perfect woman" at least according to the anime. However, no matter how important they tried to make her in the anime she would always be unimportant because she isn't tied in anyway to the main story. When they tried to do that at the end and then tried to make the entire story about her with The Last it helped to destroy the franchise

Nana Mizuki was a young beautiful twenty year old woman that was just starting out when she got the role as Hinata. And it is very clear the anime staff lusted after her. So, they did anything they could to make sure that she had to keep coming to their offices as often as possible, so they could look at her. Which means Hinata constantly appearing in filler. Stephanie Sheh has said she was annoyed by her role as Hinata as she would constantly have to come in to do a recording and be informed she was only going to say one line, "Naruto," over and over. As for Nana Mizuki thought on this, I don't know, but I will point out once she got herself established the roles she picks seem to be the opposite of Hinata as possible or at least an interesting take on the archetype at the minimum; especially after 2014 when her characters cause both Toriko and Naruto to go under.

Japanese Otaku are the same in and out of the anime staff so they liked Nana/Hinata, and hated Neji as he was her intended love interest.

American fans and western fans tend to be spilt by gender. Males like her because the perfect woman and the ultimate victory over girls like Sakura that friend-zoned them. Females like her because they self-inserted and saw themselves as the perfect victimized princess and Sakura was wrongfully stealing the man that belong to her.

In the end it was more they wanted their fantasies to come true and convince people to see how they did; than wanting to trick their audience.

Hello everyone!
Guys, is everyone well? Sorry for my long silence: I had lost my password for the forum. I finally managed to find it!

We are ten years after the end of Naruto. What do you think, having reached this point?

I've been pondering lately…

When the story ended I wondered about the reason for such a decision.... Surely, while they wanted to continue the series with a new generation, it could have been carried on EQUALLY with Naruto and Sasuke's children. There would have been no need to necessarily pair them with Hinata and Sakura (respectively). Then... why?
I thought about it and this is my assumption.

Those who wanted the ending thought it for HINATA. I don't know if it was out of zealotry toward the character or toward the voice actress, but anyway so I believe.

Why I think this I will calmly explain in more posts. In the meantime, tell me what you think.
I have always loved the debates in our forum!

They wanted a sequel, they wanted the huge international fanbase that Naruto was famed for, and they were told Hinata was the desired love interest for Naruto by a majority of the fan base; of course push along by her fanatics in the anime staff. SS happening was to put away the spare and make a love interest for the sequel's main character. On paper, there should have been no problem.

However. The fanbase that supported Hinata being the love interest was overblown. They destroyed the original story to make it happen. Their new main character is unlikable. They added problems to the ending pairings when their supporters desired them to be perfect and flawless fantasy relationships. Also the person they put in charge of the sequel made a poorly drawn, drawn out, and uninteresting story that disinterested most people.

I feel like the fact that The Last and the Boruto movie are both coming out alongside Road to Ninja this month on Netflix (10 years since the ending) is some sort of "test" for Western audiences to see if the spawn and its dad are still viable (pfft), or if the audiences now prefer essentially an alternative.

At this point, I think they already know regardless of how the views go, but if Road does do better than those two...well, its another moment of embarrassment for nH/SS-Boruto.

If it doesn't do well it just proves that the audience has moved on, and if it does it shows they picked the wrong ending. If it sounds like we win either way, it's because we do. Even if those two movies do well, they will still be frustrated by, "why are they seeing the desired profits they were promised now and not before?"

Anything that is not a complete reversal of their ill fortunes from now on is going to displease the executives. As they have had to wait ten years for desired and promised profits. And they would want to know, "why they couldn't be benefiting for it for the last 10 years?"

Right, got in the mood to talk a bit more about what I call the Tragedy of Sasuke leaving the Village.

Before that to make sure I connect it to the topic. Why I focus on part one and don't really bring up part two except for 693? Well to put it simply; there is no point. Therece made it clear, like a lot of American fans, they don't consider Part Two of Naruto that important. This can be seen by the fact they wanted us to consider part one was solely about SS, NS only supposedly existed in part two, and so it is natural that SS got together as part one is clearly more important. I just like to point out that part one is less than 250 chapters of a 700 chapter story. So apparently over 450 chapters are just irrelevant. 

So, there really isn't a point in going over the many NS interactions in part two because she doesn't consider them important. Such as Sakura flirting, swooning, and being upset about Naruto still being immature after not seeing him for 2 /12 years because she was falling for him? Doesn't matter. Sakura's sadness as well as her talk with Naruto after he tells her he is the host of Kurama, her asking if it possible to remove a demon from their container, and then crying when realizing that doing so will result in Naruto's death, so he is stuck being the host of Kurama till he dies? Doesn't matter. Her horrified reaction to the Four-tail mode and her begging Naruto to stop and no longer chase after Sasuke alone so he doesn't have to transform into that again, her crying over the fact she can't seem to do anything for him, and her hiding how she got injured because she doesn't want him to feel guilty? Doesn't matter. Her offering to feed Naruto ramen when his arm is in a cast? Doesn't matter. Her calling out to Naruto to save them from Pein, her hugging him in front of the whole village, and her trying to cheer him up about Tsunade in a coma? Doesn't matter. Her willing to throw away her feelings for Sasuke to the point of trying to kill him solely so Naruto no longer has to suffer from the promise he made to her? Wait. That one does matter as to her its proof that NS should never happen.

See apparently, its wrong for a women like Sakura to end up in a relationship out of guilt, however it is completely fine for men like Sasuke to end up in a relationship out of guilt. 

Anyways, Chapter 693 is the only time Sasuke has ever expressed his feelings about Sakura to anyone; besides telling her directly he doesn't like her.

Now, on to the end of part one which was the culmination of Sasuke's relationship to that point.

Let us start at the hospital in chapter 173. Sasuke had just spent, what was it about 3-4 months in a coma after his brother defeated him. He remembers that Itachi said he was weak because he lacks enough hatred in his heart. He then looks at Sakura cutting up an apple, recalling her thanking him for saving her from Gaara and him having clarified that it was Naruto, he remembers the looks she gave Naruto, and feels jealous at Naruto's growing power. When she is done, she presents one of the apple slices she was cutting for him to eat, this is to show her care and feelings for him. Sasuke coldly smacks the offered piece to the floor, which also leads to the rest of the apple pieces falling to the ground as well, rejecting her compassion and feelings. Leading to a cold and awkward atmosphere when Naruto comes in and notices the situation with the apples on the ground. Sasuke sees Naruto, gives him a deadly look, still thinking of Itachi and his interest in Naruto, challenges Naruto to a fight.

Sakura tries to put a stop to it, but Sasuke while he is leaving stomps on her apple slices. Therefore stomping on her feelings. Silencing her and making her think of the curse seal and Orochimaru.

Naruto is happy because he thinks this is a spar, he wants to show how strong he has gotten to the point he feels he can match Sasuke now, for what its worth I think the story surprisingly implies that Naruto is stronger than Sasuke at this moment, if for nothing else Sasuke has spent the last few months in a coma, and ask Sasuke to put his headband to show they are sparring as equals. Sasuke refuses as he is doing this to confirm to himself that Naruto is still his inferior. This leads to a spat that breaks out into a fight. Sakura, who is watching them fight, sees it as a brutal fight to the death instead of a spar and charges in the middle of them to try and stop them. She decides to do this, right as both of them have charge up their strongest attacks, and have already launched themselves in a way they feel they can't stop. Meaning that if she got to the middle she would be hit by both attacks and possibly die. Horrifying both. Thankfully, Kakashi intervenes and throws them to the two water towers.

Kakashi chews them both out for using such dangerous jutsu against each other and the fact they almost hit Sakura. He also notices that Sasuke's chidori was charged at the level of being able to kill and question if he was planning on killing Naruto. Horrifying Sakura. However, Sasuke cares more about the aftereffects of their jutsu. Sasuke's Chidori let him punch a hole in his tower while Naruto barely made a dent. This pleased Sasuke, as it initially confirmed that his jutsu was the stronger of the two, therefore he was the stronger of the two. That is, until he sees the back and sees that Naruto's rasengan blew a giant hole in the back in his water tower. Realizing in shock that Naruto's jutsu was stronger this quickly turned into frustration. 

Kakashi and Jiraiya have a talk and Kakashi brings up the fact the Sasuke has a superiority-inferiority complex. He must be better than everyone or he is worthless, he can't stand the thought of someone being his equal particularly Naruto. And that, Naruto has gotten so sick of Sasuke thinking he was better than him he desperately wants to prove to Sasuke he is his equal. They both agree to have a talk with their students, but before that Kakashi tries to reassure Sakura everything will be alright. Once he leaves, Naruto talks to Sakura ashamed and horrified that he almost killed her, asks that she not do that again. Jiraiya then appears before Naruto as he doesn't need a lecture to understand what he did was wrong.

Kakashi traps Sasuke, as he believes Sasuke will just brush him off otherwise. Kakashi chews him out for using the chidori against Naruto, that he should abandon his quest for revenge, and instead enjoy his new life with his friends on team 7. Sasuke initially brushes him off until Kakashi reveals that just like Sasuke before he joined Team 7. All the people he cared about were dead and Kakashi was starting new bonds with Naruto and Sakura just like Sasuke was. However, his end message is abandon his quest for revenge for the joy of spending time with his friends weighs heavy for Sasuke. As he does care about his teammates, but he also made it his purpose in life to avenge his family. This also leads to the counter offer of Orochimaru's delivered by the Sound Four of abandon your friends for the power to take revenge. This weighs on Sasuke as a difficult choice but in the end he chooses revenge.

We then see Sakura at home thinking over everything. After Naruto asked her not to interfere in their fight. Sakura remembers the order from Sasuke that she has kept till now, to not inform Naruto about the curse seal. She decides to finally break that promise and even makes it a date with Naruto to tell him. In the anime, they do this at the ramen shop. In the manga, they do it on the bench that Naruto complimented her forehead. Naruto reassures Sakura that Sasuke won't go to Orochimaru which she is grateful for, but she still doubts Sasuke.

So, she waits for him on the road the leads out of the village, near the bench where she thinks Sasuke complimented her forehead.

Now, before we get to that lets look at Sasuke's character or more accurately the character of his archetype the Stock Shounen Rival. Which covers characters before Naruto that help form Sasuke as Kishimoto melded their traits together to create the ultimate rival for Naruto like Vegeta of Dragon Ball, Kaede Rukawa of Slam Dunk, Hiei of Yu Yu Hakusho, Seto Kaiba of Yu-Gi-Oh, and Killua of Hunter X Hunter. As well as characters after that were inspired by Sasuke such as Katsuki Bakugo of My Hero Academy, Megumi Fushiguro of Jujutsu Kaisen, Yuno of Black Clover, and Aki Hayakawa of Chainsaw Man. The most important trait of the archetype is their pride. They are characters of immense pride, they have such pride in their abilities while they dislike it being challenged by fools. They despise taking credit for something they didn't do, doing underhanded acts to win a fight, or begging for power from someone else. Them doing so, is suppose to show their lowest points and how desperate they are.

Why this is important is that every characters read on Sasuke (except Sakura) is that he would not RANDOMLY go to Orochimaru for power; though there is always the possibility he would seek power for revenge if offered. That is why most don't warn him about Orochimaru but instead warn him about the dangers of revenge. Even Orochimaru knew this, that is why he sent the Sound Four with his offer. So, even when Sakura is right about something about Sasuke -normally when she is thinking of him negatively- she still doesn't really understand him.

Chapter 181 The conclusion of SS. Sasuke walks past Sasuke dismissing her. Once she starts talking he hears her out but he does not look at her. As he is already set on leaving the village. However, he does give her the chance to convince him to stay. She fails to connect with him like Kakashi was able to as she based their bond on a love that isn't there for Sasuke and he doesn't reciprocate. So Sasuke is able to dismiss all her arguments while she becomes increasingly more heartbroken and desperate. Resorting to even confessing her feelings to convince him to stay or even take him with her. Which he clearly sees as her last argument. So the conversation over, he teasingly calls her annoying, and he starts walking. Then as a last resort she threatens to scream and make a ruckus so other will hear so Sasuke can't leave forcing him to knock her out. He thanks her for the time they spent on team 7 and to officially dismiss her confession. After this their bond has ended as far as Sasuke is concern; which is why he treats her they way he does in part two.

...Should I go over the Promise. Only Sakura's reaction to it. When she begs Naruto to bring Sasuke back saying he is the only one that can do it. Naruto acknowledges that Sakura really cares about Sasuke. This cause Sakura to think back to her conversation with "Sasuke." Where she makes clear what she dislikes about Naruto is that he keeps interfering in her trying to win Sasuke's heart and the feelings he doesn't understand her or even enjoys watching her be miserable. While he is making the promise she realize that is not the case in the slightest.

Naruto doesn't start his fight with Sasuke until 218 and the important part is 229. The problem Naruto faces with Sasuke is he has already gotten a taste of the power Orochimaru's promised him. The power-high has convinced him, he has made the right decision to abandon his friends for power. Of course, the reader should know that he is a moron. As Orochimaru was planning on taking over his body the second he arrived. It was only because the Leaf kept delaying his escort that Orochimaru was forced to go into another body and fulfill his promise to train him to keep him around for three years. Sasuke goes through his backstory to explain why he is considering killing Naruto for even more power. To the point, he even tried to aim his second chidori at Naruto's heart before it was deflected to the right lung. Naruto finally does get through when he makes it clear that he considers Sasuke his first bond, he is a dear friend to him, and like a brother to him, but again it is already too late and Sasuke has made his choice. Only if Naruto could beat him, would he go back to the village. In the end, though he lost Naruto was able to prove Sasuke's boast wrong by landing a scratch on his forehead protector, Sasuke was unable to go through with killing Naruto, and so their bond remained throughout part two.

So, to round it all up. Kakashi is able to connect with Sasuke through their shared lost, he just had the bad luck of the Sound Four coming in after him; afterwards Sasuke dismisses all his lessons and no longer respects him. Sakura can't connect because she doesn't understand him and what she wants he doesn't reciprocate; leading to their bond being severed. Naruto can connect through their shared loneliness and finding friendship/brotherhood between them but he was only able to talk to Sasuke far too late to stop him.

Right now the scenarios I'll do three but I'll do them in general sense.

1) What if Naruto's and Sasuke's parents lived.

A lot of people seems to be obsessed over the concept that the overall theme of Naruto was, "Naruto was just suppose to be a nobody, he isn't suppose to be a child of destiny, he is just suppose to be a nobody." Not realizing the real point is, "Naruto was stripped of everything when he became the container for Kurama. He just became a weapon for the village, not really a person any more just a dangerous thing, the ultimate embodiment of the 'a ninja is not a person they are just a tool' philosophy that many ninja are taught from birth, and he had to struggle to get everything he should of had at birth." One of those being Sakura's affection. 

Naruto would likely be told the story of how his parents got together when he was young. Which would give him the courage to compliment Sakura's forehead even when they were like 5 or 6. Sakura develops a crush on the Son of the Fourth Hokage that complimented her forehead, praises her, encourages her, and protects her from bullies. Kushina, if she learns of this, see Sakura as a little her. Then, makes it her mission to get those two together and get her some grandchildren. If you don't believe that would happen, you haven't been around any mothers with young kids. If a boy and girl are friendly at a park, if they are watching those two mothers will gush about how cute they look together, and dream about grandchildren they would give them. So, she takes Sakura under her wing. Sakura's parents support them getting together, as it gives Sakura the best possible future as Naruto will grow up to be the most eligible and desirable bachelor in the village.

Sasuke would be Naruto's best friend since birth. Their parents were best friends, and apparently Mikoto wanted to adopt Naruto once Kushina died. He would know that Naruto pretty much laid claim to Sakura very early on, likely played with both of them for years, also likely end up on a team with both of them, and the Sacred Rules inscribe upon every man's heart call The Guy Code would prevent him from really going after Sakura. And again, he would probably prefer to marry another Uchiha clan member like his father and brother did. 

2) What if Sasuke didn't leave the village. What if Sasuke was informed of Orochimaru's intentions for his body and someone pointed out that without the plot and the world bending over backwards for him. He would have likely trick him. If not just out right imprison him and steal his body when he has the chance.

Well, Sasuke would remain in the village, since there is less of a reason to leave, but the 'what if' is always there in the back of his mind. That thought would come out whenever he hits a plateau or a roadblock in his training. Sakura might be glad that Sasuke hasn't left the village but the doubt, the fear, and what she saw in the Forest of Death will always stay with her. Naruto is told about the curse seal while his faith in Sasuke has never been shaken. He does nag Sasuke about the seal. Sakura becomes grateful to Naruto for helping return the team to some level of normalcy. 

The problem is that Jiraiya still wants to train Naruto to get him ready for the Akatsuki return that may require Naruto to leave the village with him; to be on the road for a few years. This will make Sasuke jealous that he isn't being given this special training for his revenge. So, the adults Kakashi, Tsunade, and Jiraiya talk about what they should do. At first, they leave the team together to see how that works and if they don't. They eventually decided to do the individual focus training. Jiraiya for Naruto and Kakashi for Sasuke. The problem is Sakura, they note she would be a great if not perfect medical ninja. She however lacks the drive to endure the training Tsunade would give her. She got her drive originally from seeing how hurt Naruto gotten from trying to keep his promise to her and her swearing not to be a burden to him anymore. So, she either finds that drive or languish in mediocrity. Story-wise she has to get that drive and it preferably has to come from one of her two teammates. Now be honest everyone, do you think Naruto is going to give her that drive/encouragement or Sasuke?

Then comes Karin who joins the village to be with Sasuke. If she is allowed and they discover she is an Uzumaki, Naruto gets a cousin. Naruto would probably want to get to know and bond with his only family. He also may be willing to help his only family member get with the boy she is in love with, who is also his best friend. So, with Naruto help and being Sasuke's type, she makes both incredibly and relatively quick gains to becoming the one in the lead to being with Sasuke. Sakura with start to doubt herself and Sasuke's feelings for her when another girl just appeared and was able to surpass her that fast.

Naruto is not bound by the Promise of a Lifetime, so he is free to pursue Sakura. Karin would probably help him in return for helping with Sasuke. Sasuke might just make it clear to Sakura he isn't interested in her and tell where what really happened.

Also, as I said before the time they were together as Team 7 before the chunin wasn't that long. Anywhere from maybe 3-6 months. While the time from when Sasuke left the village to the ending is about 3-4 years. That means at a minimum they would spend six times to as much as sixteen times together with the issues and lack of trust driving their bond into the dirt. Or more likely Sasuke getting sick of her pining after him and making it clear he doesn't like her.

So Part 2 would be NS and SK already set, if not together, as the final pairing just them developing further into that.

3) What if Sasuke returned before Kishimoto had a mandate to put nH/SS together. That is everything between what if he was dragged back at the end of part one, to he comes back willing during some part in the middle of part two, and even what if Kishi had continued the story past the war arc so didn't get the mandate to set up the sequel.

Naruto uses every last ounce of influence he has in the village to get Sasuke a pardon for his crimes. Afterwards for a few weeks he decides to give Sasuke and Sakura some distance before trying to win Sakura again; a reset of the relationships. Everyone, well mostly everyone, knows what he is doing. Sasuke isn't into Sakura and doesn't want to be with her unless he feels the need to atone for how he treated her. While Sakura is upset at Naruto keeping his distance from her.

Sai eventually has enough and confronts Sasuke to help out his friends. The two of them have a spat about how they are his friends not his. Then Sasuke goes to Sakura and ends any possibility of them getting together and pushes her towards Naruto.

Sakura confronts Naruto asks him why he did it. He confesses his feelings. They end up together.

Well got the other posts to how I want them to be...may have bolded a bit too much to highlight points but oh well.

Anyways, after looking at Therece's posts and thinking it over. I will now answer the two questions to the best of my ability. One, the development of NS and SS, and two how they would develop in various scenarios. 

So, for the first, lets first look at what we can identify as Sasuke's and Sakura's type.

Let's start with the harder one that doesn't get much focus on this topic. Sasuke, when he talked to Sakura chastised her for not training, and when he talked to Kakashi in 693 one of the things that seem to really put him off liking Sakura is her assumption that, he already loves her. Now, lets compared that to Karin, who seemed to be the intended love interest of Sasuke before the ending changes. She was chosen by Sasuke to be on his team because of her tracking and healing abilities, he knew her personality yet still chose her, and he didn't shut down her attempts at flirting, like he did with Sakura. My guess is because she was trying to win his love instead of just waiting for it. So, going off that, Sasuke's type seems to be  'useful girls that tries to win his love.' While he dislikes, 'useless lazy girls that just wait for him to fall in love with them.' I'm guessing, this comes from him disliking his fangirls. That would fight each other for his attention while hoping, he would pick out one of them to be his girlfriend.

Even once they get together, Sasuke seems to only really care about how competent she is (SS manga) and defending her on a basis of that competence (Sarada's Gaiden.)

Sakura, I have already gone over in other topics and even without that, its not that hard to figure out is, 'strong confident and capable boys that compliment her.'

So, like I said before, SS and NS mirrored each other in part one, how Sakura treated Naruto was in turn how she was treated by Sasuke. They both got off on the wrong foot in chapter 3. For NS, the forehead compliment led to Sakura doubling down on her devotion towards Sasuke, if not turning her crush into love. The conversation she had with Sasuke afterwards put him off her by showing him her ugly side, That chapter helped set up their dynamics as a team when they trained and went on missions. Now they had moments and got closer, for the sake of not getting into pedantic semantics. I hope we will all just agree that, Naruto got as close to Sakura as she did to Sasuke during that time.

However, the relationships changed with the Chunin Exam. For SS the curse seal, for NS the pinky fingers and fighting Gaara.

The curse seal turned Sasuke's and Sakura's relationship into a negative abusive one from the second Sasuke got it. Sasuke when he awaken his use of the curse seal, he went on a power-high trip. Where he tried to rip Zaku's arms from his sockets and was going to commit similar acts of cruelty to anyone else he could get his hands on. Sakura terrified and concern at what Sasuke doing begged him to stop. Seeing the utter terror in Sakura's eyes shamed and calmed Sasuke. But, he had gotten a taste of that power. So, he ordered/pressured Sakura not to tell Naruto, as he would not allow Sasuke to use a power that dangerous. The story makes it very clear that not telling Naruto was a major factor in Sasuke leaving the village. As he would have likely talk/pester him to not use it and he would have complied. Sasuke also shot down any attempt of Sakura telling others. He also dismissed most of her worries and concerns about the curse seal as harshly as he could. Though as shown during his fight against Yoroi in the prelims that thinking of both Sakura's worrying and Naruto's nagging is what caused him to resist the curse seal...also the fact that Kakashi warned him that if he used the seal he would be disqualified. Afterwards, Sakura's feelings went from fondness, constant praise if not worship, and wanting to get a date with him; to constantly worried, fretting over him, fearing he will seek out Orochimaru for power, leaving her, abandoning her, and doubting him in general. Till eventually, Sakura had lost so much faith in Sasuke, she finally told Naruto about the curse seal. Though too late to stop him from leaving.

At the start of the chunin exam arc, Konohamaru when he saw Naruto and Sakura together alone. He thought Sakura was Naruto's girlfriend and asked if that was the case. The way to signal that in Japan, is holding up a pinky finger as the red string of fate is said to be tied to ones pinky. Naruto agreed boastfully and got hit by Sakura for the lie. When Naruto was fighting Gaara to rescue Sakura. When he summoned Boss Gamabunta, he asked him not to fight in a certain area so to not hit Sakura in any crossfire. Gamabunta asked, "who is Sakura," and his son Gamakichi held up his pinky to say "Sakura was Naruto's girlfriend." This being a simple storyline even Kishimoto is capable of but went over the heads' of some westerners. The correct way to earn the right to call someone your girlfriend isn't to boast your claim to your friends but to protect her. Afterwards, Sakura went to thank Sasuke for rescuing her. Sasuke immediately shot down the praise and clarified to Sakura. That Naruto had saved her on his own and went above and beyond to do it. Sakura, then looked at Naruto at an amazed then slowly fond look. In order to show, that her opinion of Naruto had changed. From just a teammate and friend that she cared about to possibly something more.

So, by the end of part one. Sasuke was willing to completely abandoned any bond he had formed with Sakura for power and did so. Sakura was losing faith in Sasuke and had to seek faith and comfort in Naruto. So, by the end of part one SS is at least on the decline if not ended while NS is on the rise.

Sorry, something came up I'll try to do the scenarios tomorrow.

Ah the home stretch and its cooler out.

Whether it's NS, SS, or NH, it doesn't matter. Naruto is not a shoujo manga. It's a shonen manga with a primary focus on fights, villains and plot. The pairings were just secondary plots that shipping fans gave too much importance due to the drama Kishimoto created and pairings wars inside the Fandom.

 

But whether you like it or not, Sasuke is the second main character of the manga. More than half of the manga and its arcs revolve around him and the Uchiha clan. He was Sakura's first love and the one she ended up with. He was also the main link that brought Sakura and Naruto together in Part 2 and the central theme of their interactions.

 

That's why I created this topic to discuss what a Part 2 for Sakura and Naruto would be like with Sasuke  in the village and without any major drama surrounding him like in Part 1. 

Ah you remembered that Naruto was a shounen manga and not a Shoujo...Wonder how long that will last?

The overfocus is because the Uchiha clan was one of the few elements Kishimoto developed early on. When he got into the later parts of the manga where he wasn't allowed to slow down because the anime was constantly at his heels. So he increasingly made it more and more important both because of a lack of other stories to work with and to justify the eternal chase after Sasuke.

Why that line sound very familiar to me. In fact, it sound like the general warning I gave after you got into a fight over SS with Blue in my Boruto Nicknames topic. As the person that has been the most on topic in this discussion. I find it very rude that you are lording over the members within the first page. Anyways, your topic isn't just about what NS would be like if Sasuke was in the village for part two. For one, you pretty much imply you don't believe Naruto and Sakura had any bond at all unless Sasuke was gone, having no bond in part one, and only having a bond about Sasuke in part two. Which anyone who had any understanding of Naruto would have to disagree with; at least until after the ending. Two, you asked them various scenarios and the likelihood of SS happening in those. Which I am the only one, as far as I can tell, who has even tried to go through those. Hell, I have been going over your posts when I had time over the weekend, to see what you are even going on about in this discussion.

Sasuke also had a tragic past marked by the Uchiha clan massacre. Additionally, characters like Itachi, Madara, and Orochimaru constantly manipulated him, trying to sway him down the wrong path. These events played a crucial role in Sasuke's departure from Team 7, the ensuing drama and his descent into "darkness" of Part 2.

 

The issue is that you want a Sasuke who pines for Sakura or openly asks her out on dates like Naruto. He's a character with a completely opposite personality. That will never happen.  However, in Part 1, it was clear that Sasuke cared about Sakura deeply, even to the point of being willing to die to save her. This was before the drama with the Uchihas unfolded and he left the village. Additionally, she had a level of influence over him, as seen when she helped break the cursed seal with her hug.

 

Even if less important characters could change after Naruto TnJ , it was naive to believe that Sasuke would never return, find a new purpose, or acknowledge Sakura in the end.  "SasuSaku" was never dead until Sakura moved on from Sasuke. Sasuke had already demonstrated his capacity for a complete turnaround without any Naruto TnJ. His decision to abandon his plan to destroy the village and instead fight in the war to protect it as clear evidence of this.

Sasuke also did nearly die to save Naruto from Haku's attack. Are you saying he was in love with Naruto then? Hell it was instinctual when he did it for Naruto. So, based on that is he more in love with Naruto or Sakura? He at least talks to and spends time with Naruto. Again, Sasuke did care for Sakura like he care for Naruto, but he ended his bond with Sakura when he left the village. And he made it clear he never loved her.

Though granted, you kind of made it clear you will ignore anything Sasuke says or feels when it doesn't suit your narrative. You don't care what he says, how he feels, what he thinks, what he wants, or even who he loves. He is just a big sexy dreamy bad boy you can fix and anything to the contrary? He better shut his mouth.

Wait wasn't the TnJ and the eternal chase just Kishimoto trolling or something to you or something like that? It so hard to remember when and when not Kishimoto is trolling according to your standards. 

If he didn't like it, Kishimoto had the pen and the authority to avoid making them official and stopping emphasizing Sakura's feelings altogether. The idea that Kishimoto was forced to do anything by the shipping fandom or editors is absurd. As the creator and owner of the franchise, he had complete creative control over everything in his manga, including secondary plots pairings. Especially at the end of the manga when Kishimoto was doing whatever he wanted. Or did some editor forced Kishimoto to make Kaguya?   Madara was much more popular than her . 

  

Sasuke ultimately accepted Sakura's feelings, while Rin ended up dead by Kakashi's hand, leaving Kakashi filled with guilt and resentment.  Kakashi could have easily dismissed Sakura's love as childish and foolissh and emphasized Naruto's loves for Sakura at this moment like he did with Rin. But he never did. Furthermore, Kakashi defended Sakura's feelings for Sasuke when she confessed for the second time, arguing that Sasuke was wrong to reject them.

 

While there are parallels between Team 7 and other characters, fundamental differences prevent them from being mere clones.  Sasuke, Naruto and Sakura  has their own unique identities. Additionally, there's no Hinata's equivalent in the other teams and neither Kushina and Minato have any ""Sasuke"" in their life.

 

Theoretically, Sakura surpassed Rin. She didn't die and won the love of her teammate. Naruto surpassed Obito. He didn't become a simp obsessed with a girl for his entire life and achieved his dream of becoming Hokage.

 

Sakura surpassed Tsunade. She didn't lose any loved ones and managed to save Sasuke and Naruto, unlike Tsunade who lost Dan and Nawaki. Naruto surpassed Jiraiya. He managed to save his friend and became Hokage.

 

It was never stated that the only important aspect of the parallels was Naruto simply winning Sakura's love. It's not like Naruto gives this the same importance to that as he does to Sasuke or his dream of becoming Hokage. He never said:  "How I can become Hokage without Sakura-Chan as my wife?"  But he did say he couldn't be Hokage without Sasuke back.

 

The POAL, which was once was  requirement for Naruto to confess his feelings to Sakura, was simply disregarded when Sakura "confessed". Instead, Naruto declared his unwavering resolve to save Sasuke, regardless of Sakura's approval.

You seem to underestimate the power of corporations. They order Kishimoto to do something and he does it or he loses money to feed his family. By the time of the ending Naruto stop mattering as the only thing that mattered was setting up the sequel Boruto. Eventually, there was a point he wasn't allowed to say no because there was too much money put into the Next Generation project. 

Its strange you hate Ikemoto so much when he is the primary reason SS happened.

Kaguya was to make the Hyuuga's more important to the plot and introduce the second sage who was the ancestor of the Hyuuga clan. To justify Hinata becoming the Heroine, and to replace the branch seal plot that died with Neji. As well as connect the story to the Last's plot.

The same logic can be applied to both SS and NH. Why did Kishimoto make Hinata confess her love for Naruto and kill Neji if he didn't have plans for NH? Why did Kishimoto make Sakura admits that she still loved  Sasuke in chapter 540, have her declare her love so many times throughout the series?

 

The Last began it's production in 2012. So, by then, Kishimoto had already decided the main couples.  Probably, he just threw the Kushina/Sakura  to keep the NaruSaku fandom interested in the manga until the end, prolonging the dramas or pairing wars between SS/NH/NS until the last chapter. 

 

Not that I agree with this stupid logic of deceiving a portion of the manga readers. But he himself admitted to using it as a form of trolling and red herrings in a interview later.

His new editor during the Pein arc was a nH fan and wanted her to replace Sakura. For Neji death, Derock says that one anime staff member literally wouldn't stop whining about how much he hated Neji and demanding Kishimoto kill him. 540 was the Iwa ninja who gave her a love letter for healing him, her turning him down, and he praises the guy she likes. She then has a negative look on her face when she thinks of Sasuke. The readers were not suppose to take that as a good thing, but well people like you did.

Was the Last always intended to be canon? Or was it originally going to be another anime movie till Kishimoto decided he was going to end his cash cow manga, and various companies came up with ideas how to keep it going so they can continue to make money from it?

You'd be surprised what people will say to get their paychecks. Mark Hamill didn't like The Last Jedi and thought he wasn't even playing Luke Skywalker. Fans who didn't like the movie used his statements for support in their own dislike for it. Mark Hamill stops making statements critical of Star Wars. Kishimoto interviews after the ending that convince fans the ending was last minute change, so they leave. Kishimoto starts giving interviews where nH/SS was the plan all along. Quite the conundrum isn't it?

I've always disagreed with this  argument that Sakura's role as a main female hinges on her ending up with Naruto.

Sakura's prominence throughout the manga and her significance as Team 7's member solidify her place as a main female of the franchise, regardless of whether she ended up alone or married to any random character.

 

Sakura remained far more important than Hinata until the final chapter of the manga written by Kishimoto.

I cannot recall Hinata having any significant role in the war aside from holding Naruto's hand and constantly mentioning his name like a robot.

• It was Sakura who unraveled White Zetsu's plan. 
• Sakura received the Byakugou and healed the entire Ninja Alliance, surpassing Tsunade. 
• Sakura saved Naruto while Hinata tripped over a rock. 
• Sakura saved Sasuke and played a crucial role against Kaguya while Hinata remained trapped alongside the other secondary characters. 
• Sakura received her character conclusion in the final volume and chapter of the manga. 
• Sakura had a Gaiden dedicated to her daughter in the manga and later saved Sasuke, Naruto, and Sarada from a powerfull enemy.
• To this day, Sakura receives far more novels, merchandise, and official events than Hinata.

 

At most, Hinata was the heroine of The Last. In the Boruto manga in trash anyway and her presence is practically nonexisten

If popularity were a criterion for defining the manga's heroine, Sakura crushed Hinata in the last popularity poll. Hinata did not become the heroine nor did she become more popular for ending up as Naruto's housewife.

You can be as upset of it as much as you want. But that was Sakura's role and when she lost that she lost most of her relevance to the plot. She went from either the second or third most important character in the story to non-existent. Neither facts nor the truth rest solely on your approval of them.

Naruto Uzumaki was the main character in the story of the Manga Naruto; so the manga was about his journey of growth and self-discovery. Kakashi Hatake was his mentor his role was to teach the main character Naruto to help in the growth. Sasuke Uchiha was the rival his role was to challenge in order to help in the main Character Naruto's growth. Sakura Hanuro was the love interest her role was to emotionally support the main character Naruto in his growth. These are basics of story telling. If Sakura was not the love interest of the main character Naruto, why was she on the team!? Why was the love interest of the rival on the team and not the main character's? And again, according to you Sakura and Naruto have no bond. They were never close. They never cared about each other in the slightest. Sakura only EVER cared about Sasuke. Why Is a character like that part of the main cast of a story whose major themes include Bonds and Teamwork!?! 

And even if that was her role. Why did she disappear from the plot afterwards and lose all relevance beyond that she birth the love interest for the Sequel main character? If her role never changed; if she was never removed and replaced as the heroine/love interest. She should have remain part of the main cast and fought alongside Sasuke and Naruto in the sequel. But she doesn't. 

Honestly, this is one of the reasons Western Media has been in decline. People find something as basic as character roles offensive.

They thought she was unpopular and could be replaced. It backfired. And that poll last years showed that to everyone.

Around 70% of the fandom was focused on power levels and the plot. Meanwhile, pairing fans were constantly discussing their parallels, pairings, getting embroiled in shipping wars and mocking rival fans on Tumblr, blowing things out of proportion.

 

For example, I've even encountered many NaruSaku Shippers who believe Naruto failed completely as a character because he 'lost' Sakura and moved on.    

 

Maybe if these fans had dedicated themselves more to the actual manga plot instead of talking about ship wars and pairings all the time, the shock and rage wouldn't have been so great for the losing side. Inevitably, in a love triangle dragged out for so long, some part of the fandom will feel like losers, whether they were SS, NH, or NS fans.

 

 

Anyway, this isn't exclusive to Kishimoto or Naruto manga. Ichigo and Rukia fans were outraged that Ichigo ended up with Orihime. Even today, there are shipping wars in the Avatar fandom, with Zutara and KataAang fans insulting each other and Zutara fans refusing to accept the canon.

Yet the pairing debates are what make the Naruto fanbase infamous and notoriously toxic that it puts off potential new fans as much as it chases off the old. Don't worry, most of the blame from what I have seen and heard falls largely on the nH fans, well at least before the ending. Then when nH/SS happened. Instead of peacefully enjoying their victory. They both started fighting each other and chasing every other faction off.

Well lets see, before the ending when Naruto loved Sakura he was working towards his goal and was often quite successful as well as optimistic. After the ending, he is a failure at everything he accomplishes and he seems utterly miserable. So, it is natural to think, "when the only difference is he was no longer in love with Sakura and the only goal he failed to achieve before the ending was getting together with her". 'Maybe if he had gotten with her the sequel and everything else would be better.'

One thing I learned after 700 chapters of Naruto and 6 years following the manga  It's that there's one thing Kishimoto loves more than trolling and drama. Those are plot twists, no matter how surprising or poorly done, especially after a Talk no Jutsu from Naruto. A discerning reader will readily identify the recurring pattern.

Oh that old chestnut. Right for people that might not know or forgotten. Both Oda and Kubo had online accounts and used to tease and troll their fans. So people assumed Kishimoto must be the same and used that to explain any storyline or plot development they didn't like. Hinata wasn't the heroine having non-stop sex scenes with Naruto every chapter was because Kishimoto was trolling them. Sakura didn't fight was because Kishimoto was trolling them. The story is generic because Kishimoto is trolling them. NS was just one big long troll by Kishimoto he spent most of the manga developing that pairing to the point of almost completely ignoring the others beyond making them look bad because he was planning a 15 year long joke.

This of course ignores the fact that one, outside of events like Jumpfesta he never interacts with fans. I don't think he even has any social media accounts. Two, the interviews he gives never come off as him enjoying his 15 year long joke but a guy that gave into pressure and wondered if he did the right thing. Well, till he threw up his hands and stopped caring. Also the simple question. If Kishimoto is some great genius artist that was half-assing Naruto for a joke, Why did Samurai 8 flop!?

Honestly, after Samurai 8 I find anyone using anything like the "he must have planned it all along," justification ridiculous. If he could do a fifteen year long plan like that; then why is Samurai 8's plot such a mess? An artist with that great at scheming should have been able to write the plot for something like Samurai 8 in their sleep. If he always was planning nH/SS and was leading NS fans along for a joke and it didn't backfire; why did Samurai 8 keep having to reassure people that Hachi and Anna were the intended couple? Seriously, there were like 10 chapters in a row that could be summarized as Kishimoto going. "This is the pairing. I'm not changing it. I'm not changing it. This is the pairing. I'm not changing it. I'm not changing it. This is the pairing. I'm not changing it. I'm not changing it. The editors can't make me change it again! Not again!"

6 Years? Its been 10. Were you in a coma for 4 years? Are you alright? Comas that long have been know to be cause by or result in severe brain damage. Or are you talking about that you followed the manga 6 years before the ending? Which is a pointless flex if every I saw one. There were people that read the manga for 15 years that were confused by the ending.

One thing I learned after 700 chapters of Naruto and 6 years following the manga  It's that there's one thing Kishimoto loves more than trolling and drama. Those are plot twists, no matter how surprising or poorly done, especially after a Talk no Jutsu from Naruto. A discerning reader will readily identify the recurring pattern.

 

Zabuza saying he didn't care about Haku and he didn't mean nothing to him, but after a Talk no Jutsu, he went on to love him. 

 

Gaara, hated by the village and killing everyone, then became the Kazekage after a Talk no Jutsu. 

 

Nagato reviving the entire village after Naruto's TnJ.

 

Itachi, a psychopath who killed the clan in front of his brother and tortured him to the limits of insanity, becomes a martyr and a loving brother after his death.

 

Kishimoto wouldn't throw in a second declaration of love for Sakura in the last volume of the manga for nothing. Everyone, including NaruSaku fans, should be aware of the possibility of Sasuke's 180-degree shift in relation to Sakura and the potential for repressed feelings to be shown after his fight against Naruto and Naruto's Talk no Jutsu.

Look, sometimes blue curtains in a story is just some blue curtains.

Naruto is a standard Shounen manga with standard moralities and tropes. Its not uncommon for Japanese stories to teach Japanese kids that they just need to understand their opponents and talk to them to make peace with them.

As for 693 I could try to explain that was likely Kishimoto showing how much he didn't like the pairing and didn't want to go through with it, but you won't believe it. Wait. Wait. You think Kishimoto is just a big troll and any issues with the manga are him trolling right? Well there is your answer. He is trolling the SS fans. Think about it. Why would such a great troll stop at a mere 15 years long joke? When he can make one that last an eternity that he could laugh at the entire time, including those 15 years? That's why SS has no positive development even after they got together. He made a pairing with no positive elements beyond how hot the guy is. Just to watch pathetic women desperate for some hot fantasy that will never happen to them in real life try to justify it and laugh at their excuses. Now, tell me isn't that what a Great Troll like Kishimoto would do? 

I  consider only the Boruto manga non canon because it wasn't written, illustrated and even  Kishimoto's supervision hasn't been confirmed yet.

 

Regardless of the theory – whether Kishimoto always had everything planned out or if he changed his mind due to some editorial influence – the fact remains that he written and illustrated everything in the original Naruto manga.    Therefore, everything written in those chapters should be taken into account.

He handed it off to Ikemoto and hasn't taken it back despite it failings. It is canon for now and it happened because of nH/SS. Its failing are in part those pairing fault.

"Whatever Kishimoto makes is canon." Just not the thing you personally disagree with it seems. Or when its "who cares my pairing is canon."

Kishimoto should at least have shown a flashback to this scene at some point during 700 + 10 chapters  to demonstrate how iconic this moment was for Sakura. However, this never happened.

He was writing for a Japanese audience not an American one, where you have to beat a point every second in hopes they may get it. They rarely do. Hell, you ignore all the times Sasuke made clear he doesn't like Sakura.

I'm getting annoyed at all the pictures and having to keep requoting.

The Confession at the end of part one was suppose to be the end of SS. To show her love means nothing to Sasuke and he is ending his bond with her. Saying 'thank you' to a confession is a polite way of declining it in Japan. The reason confessions are a big thing in Japanese stories is they believe confession must be accepted or rejected on the spot. To not do so is considered very rude, and when you reject you do it politely by saying, "thank you."  It is not Kishimoto's fault some fans refused to accept that and wanted them together. Went over the second enough times already on this thread alone.

"So, Sakura shouldn't get with Naruto out of guilt for how she treated him (agreed,) but Sasuke should get together with Sakura out of guilt for how he treated her?" That about sum up your stance on the pairings?