56 replies to this topic

[BlazingDynamo]

man , that means they are ignoring you!!

Nah I don't think so

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

I agree so much with you, James. I've seen all those arguments from NH fans and how quick they are to bash Sakura while praising Hinata as a goddess.

 

I always thought the Hinata love is mainly because of sympathy. She has a "sad backstory" and because of her weird "sweet, innocent. vulnerable" personality that literally no one else in this series has that makes the sympathy worse. And then she gets a one-sided crush on Naruto while being the only who never hated it. Viola, you have NH/Hinata fandom obsession.

 

I honestly don't mind that they like Hinata. I liked her in Part 1. But then I stopped. Hinata's one-track mind on Naruto soured a lot of her potential in Part 2. I hate when NH fans praise her love for Naruto and don't see just how detrimental it is to her character. Hinata would only be at the peak of her development if she focused more on becoming Clan leader and got over Naruto. I still firmly believe that.

 

Hinata's just easy to sympathize with and unfortunately people can't let go of first impressions. Some of the haters will always bash Sakura for how she used to be with Naruto and Sasuke. No amount of development in the world will ever erase the image of Chapter 3.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 06 October 2014 - 01:28 AM.

[Iwantbuns]

Why people like Hinata...

 

There are some people who like her mainly to ship her with Naruto. She's there to be with Naruto, she's got boobs, she never treated Naruto badly, and she DESERVES HIM o_o Then there's people who look at her as a character rather than pairing fodder for Naruto. I honestly think she could work more on her character development, especially when it comes to Naruto. But other than that, she is a pretty unique girl. She's just... different. I'm not talking about development, but I guess her personality in general. And by that I don't mean her stuttering or her shyness. I guess it's her natural care for everyone.

 

But as the series went on, that started focusing more on Naruto. That's where NH/Hinata fans go wrong xD

Edited by Iwantbuns, 06 October 2014 - 04:16 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

@Romance girl

Thanks.

 

Why people like Hinata...

 

There are some people who like her mainly to ship her with Naruto. She's there to be with Naruto, she's got boobs, she never treated Naruto badly, and she DESERVES HIM o_o Then there's people who look at her as a character rather than pairing fodder for Naruto. I honestly think she could work more on her character development, especially when it comes to Naruto. But other than that, she is a pretty unique girl. She's just... different. I'm not talking about development, but I guess her personality in general. And by that I don't mean her stuttering or her shyness. I guess it's her natural care for everyone.

 

But as the series went on, that started focusing more on Naruto. That's where NH/Hinata fans go wrong xD

I really getting sick of the whole "she didn't treat him bad when everyone else did." Problem with this is that she did not treat him well either. Yeah, she may not have picked on him or called him annoying, but she wasn't exactly comforting him and being his friend. There is no excuse for that. At least everyone has a reason to ignore Naruto. Yeah they thought he was annoying so they avoided him. It is bad, but at least it is a reason. Hinata liked him, yet she avoided him as well. What is her excuse? "Because she was shy." Well, that is one mistake she will always regret.

I tell NH fans: "I'm sorry, but I think it is worse that Hinata avoided Naruto just as much as everyone else despite liking him." They just can't accept that negative aspect of her.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 07 October 2014 - 09:27 PM.

[BlazingDynamo]

@Romance girl

Thanks.

 

I really getting sick of the whole "she didn't treat him bad when everyone else did." Problem with this is that she did not treat him well either. Yeah, she may not have picked on him or called him annoying, but she wasn't exactly comforting him and being his friend. There is no excuse for that. At least everyone has a reason to ignore Naruto. Yeah they thought he was annoying so they avoided him. It is bad, but at least it is a reason. Hinata liked him, yet she avoided him as well. What is her excuse? "Because she was shy." Well, that is one mistake she will always regret.

I tell NH fans: "I'm sorry, but I think it is worse that Hinata avoided Naruto just as much as everyone else despite liking him." They just can't accept that negative aspect of her.

If you try to tell a NH fan this then they get offensive

[MangaReader]

Bubbly, Shy, Quite, Kind, Almost Never Angry... Long Hair, near perfect figure, impressive bust... Pretty sure the picture has been given time and ago over the years.

 

Honestly, the only group of NaruHina and Hinata fans that are bad are the people who bash Sakura or any other character I guess. Then again we have people here who bash Hinata and Sasuke (or at least in the past, I know you hate Sasuke James lol). Basically I don't care what people like so long as they don't bash what I like

[James S Cassidy]

If you try to tell a NH fan this then they get offensive

Yeah, they do. The idea of their perfect Hinata being flawed pisses them off so much.

 

Bubbly, Shy, Quite, Kind, Almost Never Angry... Long Hair, near perfect figure, impressive bust... Pretty sure the picture has been given time and ago over the years.

 

Honestly, the only group of NaruHina and Hinata fans that are bad are the people who bash Sakura or any other character I guess. Then again we have people here who bash Hinata and Sasuke (or at least in the past, I know you hate Sasuke James lol). Basically I don't care what people like so long as they don't bash what I like

I am going to punch you.

[Iwantbuns]

@Romance girl

Thanks.

 

I really getting sick of the whole "she didn't treat him bad when everyone else did." Problem with this is that she did not treat him well either. Yeah, she may not have picked on him or called him annoying, but she wasn't exactly comforting him and being his friend. There is no excuse for that. At least everyone has a reason to ignore Naruto. Yeah they thought he was annoying so they avoided him. It is bad, but at least it is a reason. Hinata liked him, yet she avoided him as well. What is her excuse? "Because she was shy." Well, that is one mistake she will always regret.

I tell NH fans: "I'm sorry, but I think it is worse that Hinata avoided Naruto just as much as everyone else despite liking him." They just can't accept that negative aspect of her.

 

Yeah. People need to start seeing characters as characters with flaws as well. If they ignore the character's flaws, then they can't really understand the character. I think literally every NH fan I've met, thinks Hinata is perfect. She is like a goddess to them. She's like an angel that's too pure and must hook up with Naruto, for ultimate perfection xD It really is pretty dumb that they think she's that perfect. I like her, but even I know that she's still obviously growing up, and has a lot to learn - just like every other character in this show. 

[BlazingDynamo]

 

Yeah. People need to start seeing characters as characters with flaws as well. If they ignore the character's flaws, then they can't really understand the character. I think literally every NH fan I've met, thinks Hinata is perfect. She is like a goddess to them. She's like an angel that's too pure and must hook up with Naruto, for ultimate perfection xD It really is pretty dumb that they think she's that perfect. I like her, but even I know that she's still obviously growing up, and has a lot to learn - just like every other character in this show. 

They love her because of her Byuakugan

[Phantom_999]

I think I finally understand why Hinata is popular to the NH fanbase and this is my theory based on why. First off, this is only based on their viewpoint and not what it actually is. I took some time and looked at some pro-Hinata arguments and I saw a patten among them. One such pattern is that they feel Hinata is flawless even though she clearly isn't. Take this as an example for the rest of the post. It's basically idealism vs Reality.

So to get started I want to address that yes, I will be comparing and contrasting to Sakura here and there. While many will say "You can't do that," even though you actually can and is a normal practice in reading classes, I am still going going to do it for the sake showing the opposite effect. Now some of these things will and might offend some people, but just know these are not "just my views." It is just the views that I have come to realize from many NH fans.

1. Appearance: "Beauty or the Beast?"
We all know what Hinata looks like and we all know what she wears and even her body type, but how does this all play into her popularity? Easy, because some people actually will judge a book by it's cover. It's not right, but it happens. Hinata has long black hair, a pretty face, big breasts, and basically a hourglass figure. A pretty much Idealistic view of women in media today judging on advertisements of "actual beauty." While it is not wrong to go for this kind of imaging and say it is beautiful, but it is wrong to judge other women by it saying that only this type of look is beautiful. I have seen many NH fans say that Hinata is much prettier than Sakura and thus the reason why Naruto should be with her. This is unlike the contrary where Naruto actually thinks Sakura is beautiful despite not possessing the same figure as Hinata. Some men actually favor that sort of thing especially in a pornographic way with the big breasts, nice butt, and other such things. The ideal perfection that women need to have the 36-24-36 ratio. Hinata does fill that criteria. Maybe not those exact ratios, but you get my point.

I know what you are going to think here. "What about the people who don't find Hinata sexually appealing or perhaps the females of the group?" Good Question which is what I was going to cover next. Now, with respect to the LBGT community, you can find someone cute, but not sexually attractive. That being said, this has been shown in some cases with others. Hinata is cute. She looks cute. Those puppy dog eyes, the innocent stance, the personality (will get into that later), and even her fashion sense is that of this cute girl in school who seems almost practically perfect in every way. From my understanding, this is why some of the females find her appealing. "Awwww, she is soooo cute." She is like a little puppy dog just wanted to be played with. Some guys are even into this too. However, her attire is extremely impractical. (This isn't saying much all things considering, but keep reading) There is no pouches or short sleeves so they don't get caught or even the sleeves don't hide anything if they have to be long. It would be silly to wear it outside especially on a hot day and it is not even that stealthy to be honest. I don't see Hinata using her attire to her advantage as say Nnaruto does like by hiding kunai in his sleeves or something of that sort. Compare this to Sakura's attire to where a lot of it is more functional in a situation. She has pouches to hold stuff, short sleeves and an apron that probably has pockets, gloves for hand protection, etc. Her outfit is not to show off her body so much as it is to help her in the field. Their attire even speaks of their personality a bit where Sakura wants to be useful, but Hinata wants Naruto to notice her. So Hinata's outfit is more for looks than function and it is kind of out there.

However, appearance alone does not make someone popular and this is just the first aspect. So please keep reading.

2. Personality: "What do you think, Plank?"
Hinata's personality is pretty simple: Shy, adorable, quiet, and determined when she wants to be. She is almost baby-like where she just kind of resonates innocence. She never does anything bad or loud and she usually keeps to herself. She hardly objects and mostly just goes along with whatever is going on. To put it bluntly...she is subservient. In 615, she sort of was more outspoken and objected to the situation at hand, but for the most part she was mostly just following the crowd while keeping a hidden secret.  Remember when I said she was cute? Yeah, she is also this from time to time. "Awww, it is so cute when she admires Naruto like that." I remember when people would say that Hinata was better for Naruto because she would let Naruto do whatever he wanted, he never had to be anything he couldn't be because she accepted him as he was, and she mostly followed Naruto's words to a T. Some men find this to be an idealistic women. "A women who does whatever I tell her to do and I don't have to do anything to better myself? Best girl ever." (Yes I have actually seen men like this, let's not lie. I have also seen many NH fans like her because of this.) I see NH fans say that she was very supportive of Naruto and that she cared about him a lot to where she loved him when everyone else hated him. However, she never pushed Naruto to be better which is something all humans want to do. They always want to better themselves. Naruto's personality requires that push. Something Hinata doesn't really do well. A lot of NH fans say that "Hinata gave Naruto hope," but this is a fallacy too. Naruto's hope was in himself and the support of all his friends.

Sakura, on the other hand, supported Naruto, but she also openly rejected some of Naruto's behavior. When he acts out of line, she knocks him back in. When he was willing to give up, she pushed him forward. She wanted for him to get better in who he is as a person and who he is as a ninja. Hinata just accepted Naruto how ever he was which is okay, but considering how Naruto is it's not really a good thing for him. However, because most of the pairing fans I run into only care about the romance aspect of the relationship, then of course Hinata looks favorable. She supposedly is the ideal woman, but she isn't. Sometimes men need a kick in the ass to push them to their greatest. Not abuse, just a push here and there. I know I am one of those kind of men. Hinata is also too willing to do anything for Naruto. Whether this be jumping in front of a bullet or doing what he says, she is so willing to just bend over backwards for him. Again, what seems like a good thing can be a bad thing as well because she looks....clingy. She is so occupied to do whatever it is that makes Naruto happy and alter her way of life just for him that she loses focus on everything else in life. I understand the need to wanting to make someone happy, but there is a limit to it. You just can't force onto them and expect them to accept it or to notice you like some crazy fangirl, but many see this as a good thing. "She wants to be Naruto's so badly that she is willing to do anything. Naruto would be a fool to reject her." Naruto doesn't want a slave to be at his beck and call. He wants a partner to share his life with.

It reminds me a lot of Spongebob when he was trying to win over Kevin from the jellyfish club and even willing to embarrass himself for it. At the end though, Spongebob learns that idol worship can be a bad thing if you give up yourself for it.

3. Goals and Ambitions: "Desire is irrelevant, I am a machine."
I am going to be blunt: Hinata's goal is to be Naruto's. That's it. Everything she does, wants, becomes is all for the sake of Naruto's attention. So Naruto can notice her, so Naruto can see her, so Naruto can hold her hand. She expresses this desire a lot. "She cares for Naruto so much that she wants to do anything for him."  I see a lot of NH fans say that this is what true love is and that she is so willing to put him over her, but she doesn't really do that. She puts her own fantasies above even Naruto himself and instead of thinking about Naruto's actual needs she is too busy concerned with her own. I see a lot of people mistake this, but the questions stack up: Why wasn't Hinata there when Naruto needed someone? Why didn't learn techniques to actually support Naruto's goals? Why wasn't she actively trying to help with the Sasuke business? There are many things she could have done different to support Naruto besides just standing in the way of a bullet. People think this is cute how she puts Naruto above herself, but she has also neglected a lot of other things and is very flawed at. She ends up being flat.

Sakura on the other hand was doing things not for her own desires or for her own sake only, but truly for Naruto's. She wanted to be stronger and not be burden. She wanted to ease Naruto's already burden and not let him fight alone. Yeah, Hinata fought beside Naruto in the war, but so was everyone else. Even Shikamaru laid claim to his support of Naruto. The difference is outside of those situations. What does Hinata want besides Naruto? Nothing. Nothing else matters to her, but her obsession with Naruto. Many people say this is cute because she devoted her life to him and it's not bad to want to help someone. It is not bad to want to be there for someone, but what is bad is attention seeking.

She is a robot here to serve Naruto's ever whim and that's all her goals ever were.

and the final reason

4. She is a Mary Sue. "My name is Sue, how do you do?"
Let me clarify again that she really isn't a mary sue and she actually is flawed in many areas as pointed out, but her fans see her as perfect. Whenever I bring up a flaw with her, they brush it off. Whenever I showcase how something can be bad, they call me delusional. They believe that a Mary Sue girl is a girl who is extremely devoted to her man, never complains, never demands stuff, always does what he wants, always is doing things for him, and never combative. She has to be practically perfect in every way which leaves her character very flat. They refuse to admit that she has problems and that flaws actually are a good thing, but they want that ideal woman who is that perfect. Actually, in a way, she is a Mary Sue because she has revolved her life around him. Her goals and ambitions are all about Naruto, she has always loved Naruto without second thought and he never needed to do anything, she never once criticized him and actually thought he was perfect from the beginning even though he wasn't and she basically seems like she was created to try and satisfy him. There is nothing else in her life, but Naruto. This really is a bad thing and might be the reason why Naruto doesn't see her. Because she is that perfect romance partner means that is her definite flaw. No one is that perfectly in love with someone and noone really perfectly falls in love without first knowing who that person is. That is too convenient.

Again, this is unlike Sakura who cares about Naruto, but Naruto is not her whole life. Notice when she did revolve Sasuke around her whole life it was bad and it made her miserable more often than not. Sakura was willing to do things for Naruto, but she didn't breathe the guy. She just knew what she had to do and did what she needed to do. The best relationships usually are the ones that have a few bumps in the road because that is a test to how they can be with eachother both good and bad times. It is not always rainbows and butterflies, but that doesn't mean love is always perfect.

Anyway, that's my theory. They see her as this "perfect ideal woman."


 

 

Yeah I could that. The sex appeal and the moe. yeah that's why people like her and want Naruto to be with her. COMPLETELY NOT SHALLOW AT ALL.....................   

Edited by Phantom_999, 08 October 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Broken Figurine]

I thought this topic seemed familiar, and I remembered I started one three years back on the subject but with a specific focus on Hinata. My point was that a lot of her popularity is popular fan perception, rather than what is substantiated by the manga. This could be extended to NaruHina of course, and often is but if one attributes all of these positives to Hinata then makes her a seemingly perfect love interest for Naruto. 

 

http://www.narusaku....showtopic=11157 That was my take, likewise a lengthy introduction post. I think the subject has been tackled numerous times, all stated in different ways that when it comes to what the character and pairing associated with her really amount to; that beyond the scope of fan imagination there isn't much in-text to work with but what fascinated me is the phenomena surrounding it. 

 

You've answered, I think very well, why she is appealing. The common grain of the matter is that each point goes beyond the text and into fan terroritory.

Appearance: Highly subjective of course--I don't deny she was designed to suit the 'cute girl' look but in text her appearance amounts to nothing but a few panels of fanservice. No one talks about Hinata's beauty; contrasted to Sakura who has had three suitors, has been called a babe, and has been the subject of sexual attraction by our male lead. 

 

Personality and the Relationship Sue: Taking it away from the scope of men and their desires for this kind of woman, I would have thought more people would have realized how lacking she is compassion and empathy. Hinata witnesses the suffering of people in her clan and does nothing--doesn't even express her horror, and provides no argument or justification for why she didn't help. It is the fans who fill in the blanks and defend her, providing reasons like "her father wouldn't let her", "she's shy"--probably the biggest cop out argument, and "it's a rigid caste system". They believe that she believes it's wrong, but we don't get that from her mouth or thoughts. She has no connections to anyone outside of Naruto--she hardly interacts with her teammates and talks to almost no one except Neji outside of Naruto. Even Tenten would speak up for Ino when Kiba was talking smack about Sasuke and she was in grief. Hinata shows no compassion, kindness, or 'sweetness' beyond being in love. It's fine to create this image of her--and many fan-works do, but in defence of the character especially when contrasting the far more compassionate Sakura it's boggling where they get these notions. She's not nice. She's not compassionate, or understanding, or any of these things that suggest an empathy for others (beyond Naruto and perhaps Neji)...she just hasn't done anything openly wrong. 

It is like, Sakura has done a few minor bad things, and some maybe not so minor as part of her character flaws--but she's done a lot of good as well. However, the bad overshadows the good often enough. Hinata does...minor nice things...and nothing at all. The lack of any overt "bad" (though I would argue doing nothing in the face of horror and making it about yourself ergo the Neji vs Hinata fight is bad) contrasted with being just nice enough seems to be the recipe to making an angel out of a character. 

 

So I agree, they may see her as "the perfect ideal woman" but not because she is; but because that's what they made her out to be. A deeper reading of Hinata brings out very problematic questions and more often than even the most minor of characters, she lacks. Sure, we make fun of Shino and Tenten, but they had no plots where the suffering of a beloved cousin was a major family issue. Also Hinata has a sister, but you wouldn't know beyond "she's the better, more skilled and love sister" that basically just serves to further the symapthy toward Hinata. 

[BlazingDynamo]

I thought this topic seemed familiar, and I remembered I started one three years back on the subject but with a specific focus on Hinata. My point was that a lot of her popularity is popular fan perception, rather than what is substantiated by the manga. This could be extended to NaruHina of course, and often is but if one attributes all of these positives to Hinata then makes her a seemingly perfect love interest for Naruto. 

 

http://www.narusaku....showtopic=11157 That was my take, likewise a lengthy introduction post. I think the subject has been tackled numerous times, all stated in different ways that when it comes to what the character and pairing associated with her really amount to; that beyond the scope of fan imagination there isn't much in-text to work with but what fascinated me is the phenomena surrounding it. 

 

You've answered, I think very well, why she is appealing. The common grain of the matter is that each point goes beyond the text and into fan terroritory.

Appearance: Highly subjective of course--I don't deny she was designed to suit the 'cute girl' look but in text her appearance amounts to nothing but a few panels of fanservice. No one talks about Hinata's beauty; contrasted to Sakura who has had three suitors, has been called a babe, and has been the subject of sexual attraction by our male lead. 

 

Personality and the Relationship Sue: Taking it away from the scope of men and their desires for this kind of woman, I would have thought more people would have realized how lacking she is compassion and empathy. Hinata witnesses the suffering of people in her clan and does nothing--doesn't even express her horror, and provides no argument or justification for why she didn't help. It is the fans who fill in the blanks and defend her, providing reasons like "her father wouldn't let her", "she's shy"--probably the biggest cop out argument, and "it's a rigid caste system". They believe that she believes it's wrong, but we don't get that from her mouth or thoughts. She has no connections to anyone outside of Naruto--she hardly interacts with her teammates and talks to almost no one except Neji outside of Naruto. Even Tenten would speak up for Ino when Kiba was talking smack about Sasuke and she was in grief. Hinata shows no compassion, kindness, or 'sweetness' beyond being in love. It's fine to create this image of her--and many fan-works do, but in defence of the character especially when contrasting the far more compassionate Sakura it's boggling where they get these notions. She's not nice. She's not compassionate, or understanding, or any of these things that suggest an empathy for others (beyond Naruto and perhaps Neji)...she just hasn't done anything openly wrong. 

It is like, Sakura has done a few minor bad things, and some maybe not so minor as part of her character flaws--but she's done a lot of good as well. However, the bad overshadows the good often enough. Hinata does...minor nice things...and nothing at all. The lack of any overt "bad" (though I would argue doing nothing in the face of horror and making it about yourself ergo the Neji vs Hinata fight is bad) contrasted with being just nice enough seems to be the recipe to making an angel out of a character. 

 

So I agree, they may see her as "the perfect ideal woman" but not because she is; but because that's what they made her out to be. A deeper reading of Hinata brings out very problematic questions and more often than even the most minor of characters, she lacks. Sure, we make fun of Shino and Tenten, but they had no plots where the suffering of a beloved cousin was a major family issue. Also Hinata has a sister, but you wouldn't know beyond "she's the better, more skilled and love sister" that basically just serves to further the symapthy toward Hinata. 

I'm confused

[Jenskott]

I think that your theory actually is a proven fact, James. I have thought these things many, many times during one decade and half.

 

And I have run into this kind of mindset in many fandoms. Pretty funny, people who adore the submissive, quiet female character -let's call it Character A- tend to hate the short-tempered, outspoken female character -let's call it Character B-. And during their bashing rants they will invariably and eventually claim that they would love if Character A was their girlfriend, but they would never want to get together with Character B because she is a b***h. And then they start to enumerate the many qualities of Character A and the countless defects and flaws of Character B... and if you peruse the canon you realize that all what they tell are lies, exaggerations and over-simplifications.

 

And then you start to think that in reality they hate Character B because she is akin to a real person (she has her own mind, her own opinions, sometimes she will disagree with you and get upset or angry) whereas they love Character B because they perceive that she is submissive, quiet, passive, always supportive and obedient (their ideal girlfriend). But they can not admit that to themselves because it sounds dumb (because it is) and sexist (because it is), so that they pretend that Character A is an angel of warmth, love, compassion and wisdom and Character B is The Evil Queen B***H Of Hell, Hades, Hel, Sheol And All Remainder Infernos (when in reality Character A is only a shy -or even aloof- person and Character B is a temperamental but mostly nice girl and a good person if you look past the harsh outside). And in order to keep that lie in their heads they substitute canon with their own fanon, attributing to both characters good traits, bad traits and flaws that they have not, erasing of their minds anything good that Character B has done, forgetting anything bad or arguable that Character A has done, and giving Character A personality traits that she has never displayed.

 

You find this mindset everywhere.

[K9ofChaos]

Yeah, that's a good analysis there. Sure, I consider Hinata to be attractive in terms of appearance, but I don't think she should be entitled to have Naruto return her affections on the basis of her not being openly antagonistic towards him. She never really did provide companionship to Naruto except as an unseen admirer. Being introverted is not an excuse to stalk someone who is suffering from loneliness.

 

But fans like her because they see her as perfect waifu material. As for female Hinata fans who ship NH, what are your thoughts on that demographic, James?

[Jenskott]

 

 

But fans like her because they see her as perfect waifu material. As for female Hinata fans who ship NH, what are your thoughts on that demographic, James?

 

 

Waifu. Ugh. Not your fault, but after seeing that word being overused and misused all over the net, usually being thrown at someone like a cheapshot or insult -especially against anime fans-, I kind of have a grudge against it.

 

On topic. I do not know what James will answer, but I think that many (or most) NH female fans are girls that identify themselveswith Hinata: they are shy girls that had a crush on a boy that never noticed them. And they ship NH because in their minds, if Hinata succeeds in the manga, it is like if they would have succeeded in real life.

[AlessaFiona]

Waifu. Ugh. Not your fault, but after seeing that word being overused and misused all over the net, usually being thrown at someone like a cheapshot or insult -especially against anime fans-, I kind of have a grudge against it.
 
On topic. I do not know what James will answer, but I think that many (or most) NH female fans are girls that identify themselveswith Hinata: they are shy girls that had a crush on a boy that never noticed them. And they ship NH because in their minds, if Hinata succeeds in the manga, it is like if they would have succeeded in real life.

You got it right. But those girls should know that men are hunters and like to chase. If you show interest, he becomes disinterested.

[James S Cassidy]

But fans like her because they see her as perfect waifu material. As for female Hinata fans who ship NH, what are your thoughts on that demographic, James?

Ive actually answered this one in the OP, but I'll re-elaborate. What would the female demographic see her as? Well, we have to dig deeper.

If that female is say a lesbian or bisexual, they might find her attractive and appealing to their taste in the same sex. In this context, females can see Hinata sexually as well so I would assume that this would be the case for some views same as some males.

If that female is straight or maybe perhaps the male is homosexual, I wouldn't necessarily say that it based on "reflection attachment" I like to call it or as Jenskott put it they "seem themselves in them." This could be the case for some, but not all. Females might also find her appealing because she is cute and emulate her like a girl would a celebrity. It is completely possible for the females and males to see her as an inspiration of perfection. A "ideal woman" so to speak or an "ideal person." This is where the Mary Sue comes in.They want her to be perfect. They want her to win. They want her to be flawless because they think that is how everyone should be. It is not just "looking" like that person, but "being" that person....even though they fail at it miserably.
 

 

I think that your theory actually is a proven fact, James. I have thought these things many, many times during one decade and half.

 

And I have run into this kind of mindset in many fandoms. Pretty funny, people who adore the submissive, quiet female character -let's call it Character A- tend to hate the short-tempered, outspoken female character -let's call it Character B-. And during their bashing rants they will invariably and eventually claim that they would love if Character A was their girlfriend, but they would never want to get together with Character B because she is a b***h. And then they start to enumerate the many qualities of Character A and the countless defects and flaws of Character B... and if you peruse the canon you realize that all what they tell are lies, exaggerations and over-simplifications.

 

And then you start to think that in reality they hate Character B because she is akin to a real person (she has her own mind, her own opinions, sometimes she will disagree with you and get upset or angry) whereas they love Character A because they perceive that she is submissive, quiet, passive, always supportive and obedient (their ideal girlfriend). But they can not admit that to themselves because it sounds dumb (because it is) and sexist (because it is), so that they pretend that Character A is an angel of warmth, love, compassion and wisdom and Character B is The Evil Queen B***H Of Hell, Hades, Hel, Sheol And All Remainder Infernos (when in reality Character A is only a shy -or even aloof- person and Character B is a temperamental but mostly nice girl and a good person if you look past the harsh outside). And in order to keep that lie in their heads they substitute canon with their own fanon, attributing to both characters good traits, bad traits and flaws that they have not, erasing of their minds anything good that Character B has done, forgetting anything bad or arguable that Character A has done, and giving Character A personality traits that she has never displayed.

 

You find this mindset everywhere.

Yeah pretty much. It is a something I noticed in many patterns and arguments. It is even worse when you try to point out that maybe their character is flawed and they then refuse to argue and retreat back into their "happy place."

It also explains why say...in RtN when Hinata took on a more gruff personality they ignore all the violence and threats that she puts forth. Even worse than Sakura's personality. She is very territorial. Of course, this is only favoritism at play and truth be told they ignore because they already know what the real version of said girl is.
 

I thought this topic seemed familiar, and I remembered I started one three years back on the subject but with a specific focus on Hinata. My point was that a lot of her popularity is popular fan perception, rather than what is substantiated by the manga. This could be extended to NaruHina of course, and often is but if one attributes all of these positives to Hinata then makes her a seemingly perfect love interest for Naruto. 

 

http://www.narusaku....showtopic=11157 That was my take, likewise a lengthy introduction post. I think the subject has been tackled numerous times, all stated in different ways that when it comes to what the character and pairing associated with her really amount to; that beyond the scope of fan imagination there isn't much in-text to work with but what fascinated me is the phenomena surrounding it. 

 

You've answered, I think very well, why she is appealing. The common grain of the matter is that each point goes beyond the text and into fan terroritory.

Appearance: Highly subjective of course--I don't deny she was designed to suit the 'cute girl' look but in text her appearance amounts to nothing but a few panels of fanservice. No one talks about Hinata's beauty; contrasted to Sakura who has had three suitors, has been called a babe, and has been the subject of sexual attraction by our male lead. 

Well, my topic isn't looking at what is there, but rather what the NH see or what the Hinata fans see her as. That's why this is idealism vs reality. It does go much deeper, but this is what I have to realize on why that popularity is there. They see her as being perfect and they want to be perfect as well. I also based a lot of my grounds on actual things I have heard rather than conjecture. Nothing really against your post in particular, I am just saying that I found a sensible reasoning behind their outlooks and why they tend to favor her more.

It's not really looking at why she is appealing, but why they think as they do.

The appearance, while yes it is subjective, as mentioned is not the sole reason why her popularity is high. it is apart of it, but it goes much deeper as you said. She appears cute, sometimes actually is cute, and shows that cuteness like a puppy dog wanting to play. problem is, while puppies are cute, they also tend to make a mess that becaus ethey are cute people will forgive easily. This is why NhH fans don't really hold anything against her. "Awww, how can I stay mad at you?" So she could do the most horrible thing you can think and they probably would still praise her.
 

Personality and the Relationship Sue: Taking it away from the scope of men and their desires for this kind of woman, I would have thought more people would have realized how lacking she is compassion and empathy. Hinata witnesses the suffering of people in her clan and does nothing--doesn't even express her horror, and provides no argument or justification for why she didn't help. It is the fans who fill in the blanks and defend her, providing reasons like "her father wouldn't let her", "she's shy"--probably the biggest cop out argument, and "it's a rigid caste system". They believe that she believes it's wrong, but we don't get that from her mouth or thoughts. She has no connections to anyone outside of Naruto--she hardly interacts with her teammates and talks to almost no one except Neji outside of Naruto. Even Tenten would speak up for Ino when Kiba was talking smack about Sasuke and she was in grief. Hinata shows no compassion, kindness, or 'sweetness' beyond being in love. It's fine to create this image of her--and many fan-works do, but in defence of the character especially when contrasting the far more compassionate Sakura it's boggling where they get these notions. She's not nice. She's not compassionate, or understanding, or any of these things that suggest an empathy for others (beyond Naruto and perhaps Neji)...she just hasn't done anything openly wrong. 

It is like, Sakura has done a few minor bad things, and some maybe not so minor as part of her character flaws--but she's done a lot of good as well. However, the bad overshadows the good often enough. Hinata does...minor nice things...and nothing at all. The lack of any overt "bad" (though I would argue doing nothing in the face of horror and making it about yourself ergo the Neji vs Hinata fight is bad) contrasted with being just nice enough seems to be the recipe to making an angel out of a character. 

So I agree, they may see her as "the perfect ideal woman" but not because she is; but because that's what they made her out to be. A deeper reading of Hinata brings out very problematic questions and more often than even the most minor of characters, she lacks. Sure, we make fun of Shino and Tenten, but they had no plots where the suffering of a beloved cousin was a major family issue. Also Hinata has a sister, but you wouldn't know beyond "she's the better, more skilled and love sister" that basically just serves to further the symapthy toward Hinata.

Essentially. Hinata is extremely one dimensional and flat. In that one dimension she does perfectly well, but that's all she can do. When it comes to other aspects, she falls very flat both metaphorically and sometimes literally. I have to wonder so if that simplicity of her is another reason why she is popular with some men. Men like to keep things simple. Too overly complicated and we lose interest. Hinata is simple and she is "perfect." The practically perfect woman. She doesn't complain, doesn't whine, doesn't demand things. To some men who are like that, she is the greatest women of all because they then can do whatever they want and not have to fear of her causing trouble for them. This is an extremely bad thing for both men and woman because it placed men to be objectifying women and women objectifying themselves.

Hinata is what we call a "trophy wife."

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 October 2014 - 07:38 PM.