31566 replies to this topic

[Qia]

You know Kishi's just either a bad writer or a fat liar who sold out in order to give the demanded sequel when you get to the POAL scene where Naruto promises to spend his life going after Sasuke for her and that, and I quote, he"doesn't go back on his word".Yet...later on states that him going after Sasuke has nothing to do with his promise to her. Like...what...I was kinda hoping that I'd missed something (hence one of the reasons why I'm rereading this whole thing, other than for nostalgia). Yet, it's nothing but a lie, it turns out. This is all so frustrating >.<. I haven't even gotten to Shippuden yet. 

Edited by Qia, 15 December 2019 - 03:42 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

You know Kishi's just either a bad writer or a fat liar who sold out in order to give the demanded sequel when you get to the POAL scene where Naruto promises to spend his life going after Sasuke for her and that, and I quote, he"doesn't go back on his word".Yet...later on states that him going after Sasuke has nothing to do with his promise to her. Like...what...I was kinda hoping that I'd missed something (hence one of the reasons why I'm rereading this whole thing, other than for nostalgia). Yet, it's nothing but a lie, it turns out. This is all so frustrating >.<. I haven't even gotten to Shippuden yet. 

 

Then when it came to Naruto and Sasuke's final battle, he told Kakashi he was going to face him due to keeping his promise to Sakura, which shows how effed up the writing got near the end and part way through the series, and why it turned into a basic dumpster fire.

[Phantom_999]

Again. Naruto and Sakura were A RED HERRING!?

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Again. Naruto and Sakura were A RED HERRING!?

 

Yeeeeeeeeaaaahhhh, sorry, but we're gonna call bull**** on that!

[James S Cassidy]

 

Then when it came to Naruto and Sasuke's final battle, he told Kakashi he was going to face him due to keeping his promise to Sakura, which shows how effed up the writing got near the end and part way through the series, and why it turned into a basic dumpster fire.

Naruto the self-made hypocrite.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 15 December 2019 - 09:06 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

Again. Naruto and Sakura were A RED HERRING!?

Kishi wouldn't know a red herring if it kitten whipped in the eye.

[Phantom_999]

The series itself is hypocritical, all things considered

[totherpage95]

when people say itachi and pain were evenly matched:
 

 

 

don't get me wrong pain has a large weakness for genjutsu but if you mean physical fight no

Edited by totherpage95, 16 December 2019 - 02:49 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

when people say itachi and pain were evenly matched:
 

 

 

don't get me wrong pain has a large weakness for genjutsu but if you mean physical fight no

 

Plus there's the fact Nagato would have the edge in numbers too, given how the Six Paths of Pain work with each other and each use of the Six Paths that those tied to the Sage of Six Paths and the Rinnegan could use.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

I don't regret coming to this website, however I might regret being a Naruto fan.

[Qia]

So I'm pretty much in the prologue of shippuden right now, but what really caught my eye before that is something that gaara says about Naruto before his final fight with Sasuke. Essentially, he says that Kimmimaru (however you spell it)reminds him of Naruto, in that Kim idolizes Oro highly and feels like any slight against Oro is one against him personally. He knows that Oro is evil, the same way Naruto knows Sas is evil, but it changes nothing because they both cant overcome their solitude without that person. Naruto even says to Jiraiya later that he'd rather be a fool for his entire life than give up on Sasuke. Interesting. I do think this is a personal flaw of Naruto though that needed to be overcome. Probably will come back to this later as I read.

Ironically, it almost mirrors sakuras confession to Sas, about still feeling alone without him despite having friends and family. It says a lot about the kind of love she holds for him.

Edited by Qia, 16 December 2019 - 04:10 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Oh for sure, all of that is true. My problem with those themes though is that it was all tell dont show, and the behaviour of both Naruto and Sakura do not make convincing evidence despite what they say. If Naruto is saying he cant have his best friend be killed then that is perfectly acceptable but I find it hard to believe that their interactions until that point made them friends at all. You dont SEE the brother like bond between them except for hearsay. All you get from the story so far is that they are rivals that are driven by envy for eachother and so drive themselves to improve.

Sakuras love for Sasuke faces the same problem in thst there is no true emotional bond between them. Whenever Sakura shows genuine concern for Sasuke or fear for his life, he tells her to mind her own business, so that love is nothing but a deluded infatuation, so that whole she loves Sasuke is not really convincing anybody for except being a convienient plot point. If it it was meant to be more that, it is Kishis job to develop that relationship even if just a little bit but you barely see anything and Sasuke gors back to square one (be an aloof a-hole) after being nice to Sakura for five minutes.

Ultimately what Im trying to say is that the themes were there and the emotions were there but the writing was not actually convincing the audience if those themes and emotions were believable which is again supposed to be the writers job.

Edited by Phantom_999, 17 December 2019 - 09:17 AM.

[Qia]

Oh for sure, all of that is true. My problem with those themes though is that it was all tell dont show, and the behaviour of both Naruto and Sakura do not make convincing evidence despite what they say. If Naruto is saying he cant have his best friend be killed then that is perfectly acceptable but I find it hard to believe that their interactions until that point made them friends at all. You dont SEE the brother like bond between them except for hearsay. All you get from the story so far is that they are rivals that are driven by envy for eachother and so drive themselves to improve.

Sakuras love for Sasuke faces the same problem in thst there is no true emotional bond between them. Whenever Sakura shows genuine concern for Sasuke or fear for his life, he tells her to mind her own business, so that love is nothing but a deluded infatuation, so that whole she loves Sasuke is not really convincing anybody for except being a convienient plot point. If it it was meant to be more that, it is Kishis job to develop that relationship even if just a little bit but you barely see anything and Sasuke gors back to square one (be an aloof a-hole) after being nice to Sakura for five minutes.

Ultimately what Im trying to say is that the themes were there and the emotions were there but the writing was not actually convincing the audience if those themes and emotions were believable which is again supposed to be the writers job.

Ehh I slightly disagree with the part about not seeing the brotherly bond, because technically Sasuke himself accused Naruto of the same. But it is as Naruto says: he's never had a family before but Sasuke is the closest thing to a brother he probably has. Reasons as to why he's the closest thing were also shown:they both knew what it was like to be alone, are rivals but supported each other when neccessary nonetheless, like against Haku and Gaara respectively.

It's the same way Iruka is the closer thing Naruto has to a father. Sure it's not exactly like a father that's there for him whenever he comes home, but Naruto still acknowledges and appreciates that relationship and imagines that this is somewhat like a father to son relationship.

And with Sakura I actually agree with you: that the relationship was not as close as she said during her desperate confession. The most important part that sakura brings up, about the first time they were alone on the bench and the first time she didn't feel like she was bugging sasuke, it wasnt even Sasuke. And the fact that she barely knows him and could never fully understand his pain like Naruto can, coupled with her words about feeling alone without him there, show how much she idolizes Sasuke...not that she's genuinely in love with him. But I'll be able to explain more once I have a computer later :).

Also none of this is a defense for what happens later in shippuden as I'm still at the start.

[Phantom_999]

Well again, my issue with it is as with "Sakura' feelings", Sasuke and Naruto never showed to have emotionally bonded over anything. Sure you can argue that they understand each other deep down and never had to say anything but that is hardly called a friendship. Again, told not shown. A better example of friends and rivals at the same time would be Madara and Hashirama before the the former went "loonie". sure theirs was more casual before they found themselves on opposite sides of the war, BUT THEY TALKED TO EACH OTHER. Hashirama actually told Madara when he was crying and was broken down that one of his brothers was killed and Madara in turn  admitted he had 4 brothers before and most of them were dead, so he had one left alive at the time. Now this may happen later on in the story so it may be invalidated in your opinion, but the fact still remains that Kishi wrote that kind of relationship for those two legendary historical figures but he couldn't write his two main characters that way? And sure there is hardly panel time with Iruka in that regard too but you can at least see that he emotionally supports Naruto and is there for him when in distress. That can't be said for Sasuke.

 

Again the context of the writing for that is different. Ino and Sakura's friendship is healthier than what Naruto and Sasuke call their dynamic because again the two girls may fight, they may call each other "rivals" in love and as kunoichi, but they are open to each other with their problems. Naruto and Sasuke? they act like stuck up "tsunderes" around each other and in flash backs if they see the other alone, silently moping in their loneliness and misery they just shrug their shoulders and walk away. there is no communication between them when it counts so I can't say that what they have is friendship.

 

Just apply that situation to yourself. If you acted like that towards someone you call "friend", are you really friends with them? You avoid each other, don't talk about anything, and are just always envious that they show you up or are better than you at something?  When the chips are down and you need some one there for you "emotionally", it's not them that is there? Not to mention all those bottled up negative attitudes towards the other sprang out and they were actually using Rasengan and Chidori (which can easily kill might I add) on each other in the hospital. That is NOT a friendly spar. Also, Naruto shows comfort and confidence in his other friends on top of having their backs in the battlefield but with Sasuke there is nothing to that except watching each other's back in a fight. That reminds me more of Yugi and Kaiba. They may respect each other, they may work together when push comes to shove, but they are not buddy-buddy. Even Naruto admitted it. They never talked to each other in childhood and hat that is one of the things he regrets the most. Ultimately the two may call themselves friends, but their behaviour and interactions does not have me convinced even back then, personally.

Edited by Phantom_999, 17 December 2019 - 06:22 PM.

[Qia]

Well again, my issue with it is as with "Sakura' feelings", Sasuke and Naruto never showed to have emotionally bonded over anything. Sure you can argue that they understand each other deep down and never had to say anything but that is hardly called a friendship. Again, told not shown. A better example of friends and rivals at the same time would be Madara and Hashirama before the the former went "loonie". sure theirs was more casual before they found themselves on opposite sides of the war, BUT THEY TALKED TO EACH OTHER. Hashirama actually told Madara when he was crying and was broken down that one of his brothers was killed and Madara in turn  admitted he had 4 brothers before and most of them were dead, so he had one left alive at the time. Now this may happen later on in the story so it may be invalidated in your opinion, but the fact still remains that Kishi wrote that kind of relationship for those two legendary historical figures but he couldn't write his two main characters that way? And sure there is hardly panel time with Iruka in that regard too but you can at least see that he emotionally supports Naruto and is there for him when in distress. That can't be said for Sasuke.
 
Again the context of the writing for that is different. Ino and Sakura's friendship is healthier than what Naruto and Sasuke call their dynamic because again the two girls may fight, they may call each other "rivals" in love and as kunoichi, but they are open to each other with their problems. Naruto and Sasuke? they act like stuck up "tsunderes" around each other and in flash backs if they see the other alone, silently moping in their loneliness and misery they just shrug their shoulders and walk away. there is no communication between them when it counts so I can't say that what they have is friendship.
 
Just apply that situation to yourself. If you acted like that towards someone you call "friend", are you really friends with them? You avoid each other, don't talk about anything, and are just always envious that they show you up or are better than you at something?  When the chips are down and you need some one there for you "emotionally", it's not them that is there? Not to mention all those bottled up negative attitudes towards the other sprang out and they were actually using Rasengan and Chidori (which can easily kill might I add) on each other in the hospital. That is NOT a friendly spar. Also, Naruto shows comfort and confidence in his other friends on top of having their backs in the battlefield but with Sasuke there is nothing to that except watching each other's back in a fight. That reminds me more of Yugi and Kaiba. They may respect each other, they may work together when push comes to shove, but they are not buddy-buddy. Even Naruto admitted it. They never talked to each other in childhood and hat that is one of the things he regrets the most. Ultimately the two may call themselves friends, but their behaviour and interactions does not have me convinced even back then, personally.

Hmm I think we both might be arguing about two different things. In my previous reply it was about why Naruto considers Sasuke to be like a brother that he's never had, or something close to it. And there have been times where the two bonded, such as during the tree exercise. It was enough to at least show why Sasuke is the closest thing to a brother for Naruto because..who else is there that understands something he's had to deal with his entire life and who he sees almost everyday, especially after being put on a team together. My argument though was never about them actually being like...best buddies back then. It was just that Gaaras words about Naruto really helps to explain why it is that Naruto has trouble letting Sasuke go (at least until he "kills" Oro). It would mean leaving him to be isolated. And even though sasuke had gone to Oro willingly, he'd isolated himself since childhood, hating his brother, and striving to be strong enough to kill him in the future. To let Sasuke go like that, at least in the beginning, is genuinely too hard for Naruto to do. Despite almost dying by his hands, he doesn't want to abandon his most precious idol.

Although, I must say...the most random thing ever was Naruto being Sasukes most precious person. THAT was definitely out of no where for me. But I suppose when you have isolated yourself for so long and find someone who sort of understands such a huge aspect of yourself, who else would you connect with the most. *shrugs*

Edited by Qia, 17 December 2019 - 06:47 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

when people say itachi and pain were evenly matched:
 
 

 
don't get me wrong pain has a large weakness for genjutsu but if you mean physical fight no

 nice meme man

 

I don't regret coming to this website, however I might regret being a Naruto fan.

I think most us do now but I'm still one short of it just do my own thing with the series like I've got a com in the works that a Naruto and resident evil series where hinata injects herself with the g-virus and goes after a grown up Naruto and Sakura who are married.

[Phantom_999]

Hmm I think we both might be arguing about two different things. In my previous reply it was about why Naruto considers Sasuke to be like a brother that he's never had, or something close to it. And there have been times where the two bonded, such as during the tree exercise. It was enough to at least show why Sasuke is the closest thing to a brother for Naruto because..who else is there that understands something he's had to deal with his entire life and who he sees almost everyday, especially after being put on a team together. My argument though was never about them actually being like...best buddies back then. It was just that Gaaras words about Naruto really helps to explain why it is that Naruto has trouble letting Sasuke go (at least until he "kills" Oro). It would mean leaving him to be isolated. And even though sasuke had gone to Oro willingly, he'd isolated himself since childhood, hating his brother, and striving to be strong enough to kill him in the future. To let Sasuke go like that, at least in the beginning, is genuinely too hard for Naruto to do. Despite almost dying by his hands, he doesn't want to abandon his most precious idol.

Although, I must say...the most random thing ever was Naruto being Sasukes most precious person. THAT was definitely out of no where for me. But I suppose when you have isolated yourself for so long and find someone who sort of understands such a huge aspect of yourself, who else would you connect with the most. *shrugs*

 

Fair enough. I can agree to that. Naruto and Sasuke do have a deep understanding of each other in their isolation and pain. An understanding that no one else can, and that is why Naruto can't let Sasuke go. But indeed, I do not think that makes them best friends, because their actions do not warrant such a statement. And you may not be arguing for it, but that is what they describe their relationship as, which doesn't make sense to me is all. Granted, how they see them selves as brothers, would also again warrant them actually bonding, which again falls to the same problem. Understanding some one doesn't necessarily make you close to that person. At least that is how I see it.

Edited by Phantom_999, 19 December 2019 - 01:02 AM.

[Qia]

 
Fair enough. I can agree to that. Naruto and Sasuke do have a deep understanding of each other in their isolation and pain. An understanding that no one else can, and that is why Naruto can't let Sasuke go. But indeed, I do not think that makes them best friends, because their actions do not warrant such a statement. And you may not be arguing for it, but that is what they describe their relationship as, which doesn't make sense to me is all. Granted, how they see them selves as brothers, would also again warrant them actually bonding, which again falls to the same problem. Understanding some one doesn't necessarily make you close to that person. At least that is how I see it.

I definitely understand what you mean. I literally just got to a moment that I barely remember happening where naruto, I kitten you not, states that Sasuke accepted him more than anyone else. Like...

More than iruka? Your father figure? Unless...of course he means more than anyone in his age group. But I would beg to differ on that considering sakura found out about his jinchuriki status on her own and didn't turn her back on him. What's more, she worried for him and wanted to do whatever she could do to help him. That's much more than sasuke because she's offering him acknowledgement, acceptance, and her support. But whatever.

I accepted long ago that Sakura will always be forced to take a back seat. It was a hard pill to swallow then and it still is now.

[Phantom_999]

For sure. Sakura provided support and Understanding when Naruto needed it most. She found out about Naruto being a jinchuriki and accepted it, even realizing how much Naruto suffered for it and wanted to remove it for him and then was shedding tears when she heard taking a tailed beast out of its host. WILL. KILL. THEM. That is why I always say it is Sakura and not Sasuke that is Naruto's best friend. I would say that Shikamaru and Gaara fit that description better than Sasuke. Now I know that Gaara is not what I put to my standard of best friend but You will see later on a very emotional and impactful gesture that shows he is way more of a friend than Sasuke will ever be based on that action

Edited by Phantom_999, 29 March 2020 - 07:18 PM.

[Tiller]

I don't regret coming to this website, however I might regret being a Naruto fan.

 

The problem I have, is i enjoy some of Naruto still. But what it turns into is just pathetic.