Kanae

I'm torn about that. I hate her character. A lot. But completeness demands a resolution. Like choosing between the porta potty where someone's aim was off or the porta potty someone threw up in.

Obviously, I'm the opposite. But to follow your metaphor, I'd rather he forget he got himself one in the first place while it's still relatively clean. So at this point, I'd rather he find her irrelevant enough to not bother to give her a resolution  Those of who who do like her will no doubt treat her better in our post-series head-canons, than he could ever hope to.

Kishi really could give two f**cks about Sakura. She could easily thrown the kunai to save Obito. No she does nothing. 

 

 

I love Sakura but I dont see anything happening for her. I feel really bad for her. 

I will be the first to admit that I've never truly cared about whether Sakura gets more power-ups or not, partly because I'm not invested in power-levels and partly because she's powerful enough as is for a human girl, imo; but I have a hard time believing Kishi isn't going somewhere with this.

 

This is Sakura's self-esteem taking hit after hit in each chapter due to Sasuke's words. It has to bounce back eventually, she has earned it; after all her hard work, there's no way Kishi will let her stay down by the end of this fight. Not when this has always been such a big part of her character and of her development.

 

And for it to bounce back, she has to feel useful again; and as such, do something important in whatever measure or capacity might be available to her. 

 

It's just a matter of time, imo. The story itself calls for it.

NH is dead

Nh will never happen, this dreamworld proves it. I don't know if you noticed, but all the dreams that happened in this chapter were dreams that will never happen, Lee being loved by Sakura, Kiba being Hokage, tsunade's beloved ones being alive, Gaara and his parents, etc.. Look and you will see that all the dreams will never happen. 

 

Also can someone explain Tenten's dream to me? I didn't understand. 

I still find the NH tease this chapter both discouraging and dissapointing because....well what happened to all that evidence of the pairing wars coming to a conclusion?

If you ask me, when it comes down to it, the pairing has basically been concluded since it started, since Naruto's side of the matter has had no romantic development. You have to remember that Hinata (and this may sound bad to some, but it's how I personally see it) is basically a glorified outlet of Naruto adoration. You could literally exchange that "Naruto-kun" with any unnamed fodder from Konoha, and it would amount to the same thing: Naruto's people needing him. It was given to Hinata because she is a named character, popular and because her character nowadays basically revolves around nothing else but Naruto-kun'ing. 

 

Fandom-wise, the pairing wars won't come to a conclusion until something is indisputably canon (and I'm willing to bet Kishi's editors are behind milking the fanteases for all their worth). And even yet, they most likely won't conclude; screams of bad writing! no foreshadowing! etc will come left and right. That's fandom for you.

 

But manga-wise, I guarantee you wouldn't have thought twice about that Hinata panel if you weren't a part of the fandom, and only too aware of how it will be taken by some sides of it. And that's because manga-wise, the evidence pointing to NaruSaku is as clear as day. There's literally no room left for doubt in that regard. Everything else is just taking isolated events and losing sight of the big picture, IMO.

^ What. But, I was the one who wrote the manifesto and I didn't mention NaruSaku at all?     Heck even when it came to 662 I barely threw in a line mentioning the parallel, because while I obviously ship NaruSaku and am 100% they will be canon (whereas Sasuke lives or stays single or not, so you can count me in that supposed "1%" who is not at all threatened by SS - way to underestimate this fandom and overestimate SS, btw) there are NaruHina fans who ship SasuKarin. 

 

Honestly, please stop generalizing. 

We will have flashbacks for sure.
Especially about that thing Suigetsu was talking about.

Definitely! From what I've seen, language-wise all things seem to point out to Suigetsu referring to Sasuke and Karin's meeting in the FoD. But that brings the question of how did he know that in the first place, so eve if that were the case, we're still basically on square 1
 

If he had made more of an effort to treat it seriously first, before trying to bring in the humor, I think it would not have had such a jarring effect on me.

I believe so as well. 
  

What you suggests makes sense and I could at least swallow it if this was what he was doing. It's just not. My reading of the apology is that he wanted to move away from the issue as fast as possible. The real redemption is via Naruto, not a side-character who has outlived her purpose. So, it made it quick and reverted everything back to the original status quo, implications be damned. This is probably the nicest reading I can give it, and I really think that was the intent.

If Karin had really outlived her purpose, as you say, then she would've written off the story already in the 4 opportunities Kishimoto has had to do so. Instead, he not only brings her back but canonizes her Uzumaki heritage and gives her a power-up that - yet again - highlights how special Karin's chakra is. The manga is not over yet and she and Taka still have roles to play. You can dislike them as much as you want, but don't write them off when Kishi is obviously keeping them around for a reason.

Yeah, the real redemption will be via Naruto. But I guarantee that Sasuke's other bonds will also play a role in his upcoming character development; Karin and Taka included.

Lastly, if he wanted to move away from the issue as fast as possible, he would have actually tried to make us forget about it. So, wouldn't you say that Karin bringing it up left and right defeats that purpose?

Whether it's brought up in an humorous context or not doesn't matter in that regard. What matters is that it's still being brought up.
 

The primary difference between every example and Karin is that everyone other example gets treated seriously by the author. Karin is a David Letterman monologue now (and about as funny ).

You are giving more weight to Karin's comic relief moments and her eccentricities than to her character as a whole. That side of Karin is a character trait; but it in no way encompasses her nor does it mean she has no character depth.

Saying that is to deliberately overlook moments like these:
 

To name a few. Writing Karin off as a character without depth or just as a source of comic relief is making the same mistake the guards did in chapter 574; they let themselves be fooled by her and Kishi had her use that to her advantage. 
 

^ I completely agree lol Sometimes I wish Kishi were a little more conscious of the ways his character are perceived by the fandom so that he would be a bit more careful when it comes to his timing, at least.

 

I agree that a scene is not less valid for being played in a comedic light, but when it comes to something like an attempt on another person's life it just feels like bad taste. As an aspiring writer myself, I struggle to understand why Kishimoto would choose to characterize SasuKarin this way if he intends for readers to actually take it seriously as a possible canon pairing -- as his recent paralleling of SK and NS would suggest.

I hope you don't mind me jumping in   If you ask me, the thing with Kishi is that - as everyone mentioned - he really, really, really likes his humor. When it comes to Sasuke, there are hardly any opportunities to bring humor through him because he is a very serious and mellow character in that regard; that is why whenever Taka is around, Kishi will take every opportunity to make things humorous (as they are there to both, compliment and balance Sasuke) be it in good taste or not. The same applies to SasuKarin. IMO his timing has been more off than ever now because of what I mentioned previously (he does know that he went too far) and because of what Yami just said; since they're at a war, Kishi will take every opportunity he can to sneak in the humor. 

 

But he will address them seriously when it's due. The prime example being the latest chapters. So basically, I do agree that it's in bad taste; but given the foreshadowing I do think he will end up making up for it and addressing it properly later. For now, I think his priority was to re-establish the SasuKarin dynamic (which he did in 627), to assert that Karin is very much still in love with Sasuke - and to start to show that something has changed, since Karin is being more open about her feelings for him - and Sasuke had never quite made such a face with her before, either. 

 

So it's a matter of seeing how he handles things when we see Sasuke and Karin actually interacting again.

^ mte 
 
@catsi563: Caaaaat, it's so good to see you!  It's been a while since you've dropped by the FC haha 
 
@BakeNeko-Chan: I'm glad to hear that! Nothing to thank for, the discussion was very enjoyable   I hope you're feeling better, btw. (And I just realized that I misspelled your name on the previous page, my apologies for that!)

@BakeNeko-Chan
Just because it's funny that Naruto says out of nowhere that Sakura is "more or less" his girlfriend it doesn't make his feelings any less true. And just because Karin brings up the stab in a funny scene it doesn't make her feelings about it any less true. That's just how I see it.

Nice way to put it! I wholeheartedly agree with everyone on the matter.
 
Speaking about hurmor, their faces here are forever funny to me:
 



 
I see no difference 

@BakeNeki-Chan: No worries! You aren't being rude at all. At the contrary!  I completely understand where you're coming from. I understand those who dislike SasuKarin due to what he did to her and also those who stopped shipping them there; at most what I can do is explain my reasons as to why I didn't drop the ship, but I also understand that a lot of them come from simply adapting myself to Kishi's writing formula - which is something no one is obliged to do. So basically, I do get why it's impossible for some to like it due to the stab and I wholly respect that.

My issue lies with those who act like SasuKarin was never positive, has got no foundations, is shallow, is part II SS, so on so forth. Because it often seems that they either skipped over their scenes, or it's just their dislike for their individual characters talking.
 
I'll reply under the spoiler-tag:

 

someone asked me why it was unhealthy?
1) Karin lusts for Sasuke

And?  You act like lusting for the guy you're in love with is an issue instead of a very good thing. 

 

Won't touch the other two because they've already been addressed, if I'm not mistaken.

It's no regression because Karin never stopped loving him and neither did she start to outgrow him only to have a "slip", so to speak. It's no regression because Karin isn't going back to someone who was consistently an a**hole to her, someone who affected her negatively. She isn't willing putting herself on the receiving end of a dynamic like that; she is back with Sasuke because he is (?) back to being the Sasuke she has always known, someone who always treated her fairly and had a positive effect on her more than once. 

 

And no. I don't want Sakura to forget about Sasuke because of the Kage Summit   I want Sakura to forget about Sasuke because her dynamic with him did affect her negatively even when Sasuke wasn't crazy. I don't want Sakura with Sasuke because of the entire manga as a whole; not because of what Sasuke did or didn't do when he went off the deeper end.

 

On that subject, using the Kage Summit as argument isn't a very good idea IMO because while it would indeed be a very decisive thing in the real world, this is Kishi we're talking about   and he did go out of his way to explain what was going on with Sasuke in 619. So truth be told it's not like his actions during that time will keep anything from becoming canon.  It's everything preceding it and following it that will.

 

And make no mistake; I'm not saying the glossing-over of his actions is a good thing. But that is how Kishi rolls 

^ you know me too well lol
 

I have a question for the SK fans. What makes you see SasuKarin as a better alternative -- if I can word it that way -- to SasuSaku? Basically, what makes SasuSaku "bad" but SasuKarin okay, to you guys? I don't ask to antagonize or anything, it truly is just honest curiosity.

My main reasons are here. But it's a pretty long read because it's got pictures and explanations and the likes    to summarize, I believe SS's and SK's similarities are purely circumstantial, while Kishimoto has portrayed their dynamics and foundations fairly differently.

 

Some of the reasons I dislike SS are: Sakura hid her real personality and took a submissive role to him and as such I found SS detrimental to her character, Sasuke was an ass to her more often than not, lack of mutual understanding and respect - all things which give no plateau for healthy and mutual romantic development in my eyes. Which goes hand in hand with the negative portrayal it has had throughout the entirety of part II. All this coupled with the fact that Sasuke never gave her any particular sort of weight outside of the context of Team 7 and that Sakura’s romantic feelings for him (IMO) had very shallow bases. I feel that those things are either not present or even subverted in the SK dynamic.

 

For example: while there's nothing that highlights and individualizes Sakura [from Team 7] in regards to Sasuke (both Sakura and Naruto have got the same type of flashback when it comes to "picturing" SasuSaku, for example, and even during Sakura's confession and post-FoD Sasuke kept thinking about the Team as a whole) there are things that have highlighted Karin in regards to Sasuke (his smile to her in 482, awakening a power for her, Suigetsu saying they're about to hook up, Tobi pointing out that she's his favorite, his apology to her, etc). Then there's their behavior around Sasuke: while Sakura became "child-like" in front of him and even had an inner!Sakura because she didn't feel comfortable voicing her views in front of Sasuke and wanted to get on his good side, Karin is the dire opposite: Sasuke is actually the only person whom she allows to see the whole her, both the rough "tsun" sides and the lady-like "dere" sides. Moreover, while people love to say that Karin is a fangirl; she is actually a tsundere. So that's another big difference in their particular approaches to Sasuke right there, because Sasuke himself agrees that Karin isn't "easy to handle":

 

To give a visual example:

 

 

Sasuke has also never, ever been rude to Karin the way he was to Sakura. And while Sasuke not mincing his words can and did hurt Sakura's feelings, Karin is a different matter altogether because her attitude is nearly the same as Sasuke's. So Sasuke's personality has no negative effect on Karin's, which automatically makes them more compatible. There are no emotionally damaging  dynamic side-effects when it comes to SK. Plus, by the time Karin was introduced to us she already had Sasuke's full acknowledgement, which is another thing that marks a difference in the foundations of their respective dynamics. 

 

There is also the fact that Sasuke and Karin have a bridge that Sasuke and Sakura never had: Karin is also the sole survivor of a slaughter. While Sakura tried to, she ultimately could never quite understand Sasuke (which isn't her fault at all). Karin doesn't have this issue here because she did go through a similar situation.

 

And SasuKarin also ties in nicely with quite a few of Kishi's recurrent themes - including having the dynamic that he seems to prefer, aka the "rough woman that is tender to the guy she loves". Not to mention that the fact that Kishi made it so that all Karin wants is to see Sasuke "smile" again is the typical way in which he portrays selfless love; which is a far cry from how I personally perceived P1 SS.

 

The role they played during the Darksuke arc, authorial-intent wise, also said a lot IMO. And on that subject, it's quite telling that the only negativity that SasuKarin has had so far came from that arc; meaning, it took Sasuke going Dark and becoming "unlike the Sasuke Karin has known" for there to be any in the pairing. But aside from that, Kishi has never portrayed SK in a negative light; which, again, can't be said for SS. 

 

Sorry, it came out long anyway 

^ I'm so glad you dropped by! I just browsed the thread and I've been meaning to thank you for your kind comments regarding the SasuKarin isn't SasuSaku "Redux" essay I wrote. Thank you so much!

 

 

Same goes to sushi., catsi, Tsubaki and Serenity Namikaze. God knows that both that and the manifesto were long as heck, so thank you for putting up with both! 

A SasuKarin thread! It's great to be able to talk about them and NaruSaku openly 

 

The recent chapters reminded me of something I wrote a while ago and never got the chance to share and discuss outside of my tumblr and lj because it'd have been off-topic in the SasuKarin FC and in the NaruSaku FC haha.

 

My original tumblr post is here: http://skania.tumblr...st/56109982842/

 

IMO Kishi had already more or less paralleled NaruSaku and SasuKarin before this, but from the boys' ends. I can't help but to find a lot of similarities, authorial intent wise, between Naruto saving Sakura from Gaara and Sasuke saving Karin from Killerbee.

 

The main ones are:

 

1. The fact that Kishi makes sure that Naruto’s and Sasuke’s efforts to save Sakura and Karin respectively are a “one man’s battle” kind of thing

 

2. In both cases you can see how Kishi gives a fair amount of focus to Naruto’s and Sasuke’s reactions to Sakura and Karin being in danger. More importantly: they are over and over the only ones to react to it.

 

From a thematic standpoint, this is probably the most important and meaningful resemblance between the two:

 

3. Naruto’s and Sasuke’s drive to save Sakura and Karin respectively are so strong, that Kishi uses them as catalyst to have the boys ‘power-up’.

 

Lastly! In my opinion: 

 

4. Due to the aforementioned reason, both events happen to be perfect examples of the following lesson:

 

Now that he has gone and paralleled them so explicitly, I can't help but to think these similarities were pretty deliberate, too 

The roller coaster will probably be something like this

I'm actually bracing myself for the last of SasuSaku. I feel that they're going to get a final "moment" that will stir up the fandom, and it will likely happen sooner than later. Karin isn't there yet, so this would be the opportune time for something SS related. It will undoubtedly be refuted by either NaruSaku or SasuKarin later on, but the initial blow is still going to suck, (hopefully not as badly as 615 did.)

The good news is that, from that point on, it's nothing but smooth sailing for NaruSaku, (if things go how I expect them to. )

 

I feel the exact same way   Personally, I feel that since Kishi should honestly try and make some amends to subtly start patching things up within Team 7 for the inevitable moment when the bonds are fully repaired, we may at least get Sasuke reacting to Sakura's real power, and perhaps even commenting on it - which is not a pairing moment in and of itself, but it'll be enough to get the fandom going and it'll be funny to see it happening, considering that Sasuke's already acknowledged another girl 300+ chapters ago and that's always been called 'meaningless' by the very same people who would party about this 

 

It's nothing to be concerned over though. Given that Naruto and Sasuke always address their own bond and deal with each other in a context that doesn't leave much room for Sakura to play a part, it's necessary for the Sasuke-Sakura part of Team 7 to be addressed in some other fashion, considering that's fairly strained in and of itself. IMO, of course.