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The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread


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#53961 NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 10:20 PM

It's hard to believe it's been 8 years since the series ended. I remember I was depressed about it for weeks. I mean a bad ending is one thing. Seinfeld had a bad ending but I got over it. But how this ended was an inexcusable cop out to write your characters.  This could have been one of the great finales like Fullmetal Alchemist. Instead  it was an atrocity. I am still not over it and I don't think I will be.


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#53962 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 08 September 2022 - 10:40 PM

It's hard to believe it's been 8 years since the series ended. I remember I was depressed about it for weeks. I mean a bad ending is one thing. Seinfeld had a bad ending but I got over it. But how this ended was an inexcusable cop out to write your characters.  This could have been one of the great finales like Fullmetal Alchemist. Instead  it was an atrocity. I am still not over it and I don't think I will be.

i'm with you there it's like linkara with one more day 



#53963 NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

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Posted 09 September 2022 - 06:13 PM

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#53964 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 12:37 PM

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ha funny but imagine if it was naruto as vader in the suit



#53965 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 06:45 PM

ha funny but imagine if it was naruto as vader in the suit


Now I'm imagining the aftermath of their first fight in the Valley of the End, only Naruto is Anakin and Kakashi arriving is Palpatine.


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#53966 Nostradamus

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 07:07 PM

ha funny but imagine if it was naruto as vader in the suit

Naruto would be down on his knees.  :wink: :lulz: :D 


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Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.


#53967 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 04:41 PM

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And this reminds me of how I compared Madara lying to Obito and setting up Rin's death to Palpatine manipulating Anakin in the climax of Revenge of the Sith so he would fully be his pawn.

#53968 Phantom_999

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 06:00 PM

And yet I don’t find Obito and Rin nearly as impactful because unlike Anakin and Padme they weren’t even in a relationship. And unlike Naruto and Sakura the dynamic was not given focus nor developed. A major flaw in Naruto’s writing is that several characters are given similarities to Naruto for ATTEMPTED irony, drama and tragedy but are not given enough time or narrative care for the audience to process it to be impactful.

P.S. I’m back after a few months off lol I was just wrapping my head around some things and well just trying to get through an insane back log of my gaming library as I only have time on weekends to play mostly


Edited by Phantom_999, 12 September 2022 - 06:49 PM.

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#53969 Phantom_999

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Posted 12 September 2022 - 06:58 PM

It's hard to believe it's been 8 years since the series ended. I remember I was depressed about it for weeks. I mean a bad ending is one thing. Seinfeld had a bad ending but I got over it. But how this ended was an inexcusable cop out to write your characters.  This could have been one of the great finales like Fullmetal Alchemist. Instead  it was an atrocity. I am still not over it and I don't think I will be.

 
Even at it's best, I doubt it could reach Fullmetal Alchemist lol. Bias on my part, I know. But Fullmetal Alchemist was just the tops for me back then and still is now. In fact the story was so impactful because it was stated that Arakawa-sensei went to great lengths to flesh out her world. In fact, on top of reading books on alchemy regularly she would interview a wide variety of people including War veterans, ex-yakuza etc. etc. the care that she put into the series is second to none in my eyes :smile: Naruto seems barely planned even at the height of it's writing and more often than not just followed "typical shonen conventions" either because it was popular or was told to Kishi it would be popular. THEN we have the splattered mess that followed Pain's invasion of Konoha which did not give me a good impression anymore at that point
 

Kakashi is not a bad teacher because he "favored Sasuke." The only thing he taught Sasuke that he didn't teach the others was the chidori, and the reason for that is to look at the situation. Sasuke was going up against Gaara an incredibly powerful genin that defeated Lee, the prized student of his rival Gai. He had to focus on him or Sasuke would be killed. Yes, he shoved Naruto off to Ebisu but it was very likely that the water walking was what he was going to train the team in anyways. Which he considered fine because, Neji was unlikely to kill him. Look at both fights Neji had during the chunin exam, he constantly requested the matched be call in his favor once it was obvious he was more skilled than his opponent, so he would not seriously injure or kill his opponent if the match went on, and of course both refused. So if Naruto lost he would live if seriously injure at worse. Sasuke would be killed. Which one do you focus on?
 
Granted this is somewhat the fault of the story rushing. It was implied before the chunin exam that Kakashi mostly trained the main cast as a team. Granted it would have been better if he had done more individual training. As Naruto's education before joining the team was atrocious and Sakura lacked a specialty.
 
Now granted I did point out...awhile back how Kakashi is a bad teacher, he does not adjust his training on an individual level. Look at how he taught the team tree climbing and Naruto wind release as well as the shadow clones. He begins with a long technical explanation of what he is teaching them. Naruto doesn't get it. Kakashi give another simpler but still very technical explanation. Naruto doesn't get it. Kakashi tries simplifying again, and Naruto still doesn't get it. Finally, an exasperated Kakashi shows him what they will be doing, he finally gets it, and Kakashi gives one last explanation that Naruto also gets.
 
Naruto needs to be shown what his is suppose to be doing, he doesn't get things when it only explain to him on a conceptual level.
 
Jiraiya was able to teach Naruto the Rasengan by showing him the steps and letting him figure it out. Granted with a few tips here and there.
Asuma gave Naruto a explanation then a demonstration then finished off his explanation.
Fukasaku had Gamakichi with him to give him a simplified explanation. 
Killer Bee seemed to be able to connect with Naruto.
 
Yamato wasn't a teacher he was a captain. The closest thing to a lesson he gave Naruto was a dress-down where he told him, he needed to find his own strength instead of relying on Kurama.

 
And I would like to point out 2 other things. 1. (I'm not sure if it is filler though) Jiraya ASKED Kakashi to train Sasuke because of what he found out about Orochimaru and Itachi plus Sasuke needs more guidance on his Sharingan, which leads to point 2. Chidori has tunnel vision without Sharingan so teaching it to Naruto would be useless and I don't imagine Sakura would have the chakra reserves for it. Ultimately not teaching them on in individual level was not addressed because they were in an exam anyway and there was no time to. And as you said, Sasuke was fighting against Gaara so obviously he takes priority in learning a very high level skill to even the playing field or he will get killed. Naruto again was left with Jiraiya as intended for the upcoming fight with Akatsuki so it is not as bad but the main problem on that front is that summoning is a situational skill and Naruto doesn't have enough Chakra to do large summons on his own in the first place so that is the only reason why it looks like he got the short end of the stick. Plus it's not like Kishi planned ahead on either but in retrospect, learning rasengan against Neji would seem like overkill because he's not a blood thirsty killer. Sakura was already eliminated in the preliminary rounds she required no further attention because she was safe already.


Edited by Phantom_999, Today, 10:49 PM.

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#53970 Tiller

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 05:39 AM

Well, I still hate the ending. I can't believe it's been 8 years. I'm glad you guys are doing well.



 


#53971 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 10:34 PM

 And I would like to point out 2 other things. 1. (I'm not sure if it is filler though) Jiraya ASKED Kakashi to train Sasuke because of what he found out about Orochimaru and Itachi plus Sasuke needs more guidance on his Sharingan, which leads to point 2. Chidori has tunnel vision without Sharingan so teaching it to Naruto would be useless and I don't imagine Sakura would have the chakra reserves for it. Ultimately not teaching them on in individual level was not addressed because they were in an exam anyway and there was no time to. And as you said, Sasuke was fighting against Gaara so obviously he takes priority in learning a very high level skill to even the playing field or he will get killed. Naruto again was left with Jiraiya as intended for the upcoming fight with Akatsuki so it is not as bad but the main problem on that front is that summoning is a situational skill and Naruto doesn't have enough Chakra to do large summons on his own in the first place so that is the only reason why it looks like he got the short end of the stick. Plus it's not like Kishi planned ahead on either but in retrospect, learning rasengan against Neji would seem like overkill because he's not a blood thirsty killer. Sakura was already eliminated  in the preliminary rounds she required no further attention because she was safe already.

From what I recall, Jiraiya had this conversation with Kakashi after he met with Naruto. He met Naruto found him interesting and decided to take him under his wing. Jiraiya recognized Naruto but didn't feel like bending over backwards for the son of his old student and had to be bribe with the sexy jutsu to train him. So it wasn't some scheme by Kakashi for Naruto to meet Jiraiya. Ebisu was suppose to train Naruto but he met Jiraiya at the hot springs. Naruto was just suppose to spend a month learning water walking then whatever else Ebisu felt like training Naruto in...probably more chakra control.

 

The purpose of the toad summoning was to see if Naruto could access the power of Kurama since its power would allow him to beat anyone in the chunin exam. So he spent a month training by summoning a tadpole to see if he could access that power. Till Jiraiya realize that the month was almost done and had to use a last resort to force Naruto  to access that power.

 

So I always felt that the conversation happened either near the end of that month or after the third died. As his death would make jiriaya realizes that orochimaru was too far gone, and there was no safety net anymore so he needed to train Naruto to protect him from the akatsuki.



#53972 totherpage95

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 11:41 PM

From what I recall, Jiraiya had this conversation with Kakashi after he met with Naruto. He met Naruto found him interesting and decided to take him under his wing. Jiraiya recognized Naruto but didn't feel like bending over backwards for the son of his old student and had to be bribe with the sexy jutsu to train him. So it wasn't some scheme by Kakashi for Naruto to meet Jiraiya. Ebisu was suppose to train Naruto but he met Jiraiya at the hot springs. Naruto was just suppose to spend a month learning water walking then whatever else Ebisu felt like training Naruto in...probably more chakra control.
 
The purpose of the toad summoning was to see if Naruto could access the power of Kurama since its power would allow him to beat anyone in the chunin exam. So he spent a month training by summoning a tadpole to see if he could access that power. Till Jiraiya realize that the month was almost done and had to use a last resort to force Naruto  to access that power.
 
So I always felt that the conversation happened either near the end of that month or after the third died. As his death would make jiriaya realizes that orochimaru was too far gone, and there was no safety net anymore so he needed to train Naruto to protect him from the akatsuki.

Keep in mind the nine tails chakra was sealed so any water walking that naruto tried failed because his chakra network had started to become more in sync with the nine tails one after some more of the nine tails chakra began to leak out when he used it to fight orochimaru in the forest. Once jiraiya realized naruto was doing worse than he usually would he removed the cursed seal orochimaru put on naruto and realized that the intention the fourth hokage had when he left the nine tails in naruto had begun to happen and naruto would probably be able to learn how to use the nine tails chakra. It's also interesting how brutal orochimaru was with the sealing jutsu it's possible his seal would kill anko and sasuke and the one he used on naruto could have killed him i suspect if he wasn't a uzumaki

#53973 Phantom_999

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Posted 16 September 2022 - 12:46 AM

From what I recall, Jiraiya had this conversation with Kakashi after he met with Naruto. He met Naruto found him interesting and decided to take him under his wing. Jiraiya recognized Naruto but didn't feel like bending over backwards for the son of his old student and had to be bribe with the sexy jutsu to train him. So it wasn't some scheme by Kakashi for Naruto to meet Jiraiya. Ebisu was suppose to train Naruto but he met Jiraiya at the hot springs. Naruto was just suppose to spend a month learning water walking then whatever else Ebisu felt like training Naruto in...probably more chakra control.

 

The purpose of the toad summoning was to see if Naruto could access the power of Kurama since its power would allow him to beat anyone in the chunin exam. So he spent a month training by summoning a tadpole to see if he could access that power. Till Jiraiya realize that the month was almost done and had to use a last resort to force Naruto  to access that power.

 

So I always felt that the conversation happened either near the end of that month or after the third died. As his death would make jiriaya realizes that orochimaru was too far gone, and there was no safety net anymore so he needed to train Naruto to protect him from the akatsuki.

 

Yeah it's not like Kakashi planned for Naruto to meet Jiraiya that's just how it panned out, but Jiraiya had a point in Sasuke needing to learn more about the sharingan. It's true that learning summoning was to help Naruto access Kurama's chakra but again that is situational since Naruto can't call it on command anyway and it wasn't used against Neji so that's why "it seemed" like he got the short end of the stick, I said. but back on point. Maybe Kakashi might have started training Naruto and Sakura on an individual level, who knows. The plot never developed to a point where he could or should have so it definitely would not be fair to say he's a bad teacher and playing favourites in that sense. Even with Rasenshuriken, at that point Sakura has fully developed into a medic and there was nothing he could help her with on that front, and Naruto wasn't being taught so much as get a basic idea of what he was doing and figuring it out from there.


Edited by Phantom_999, 16 September 2022 - 12:54 AM.

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