266 replies to this topic

[CloudMountainJuror]

 

I don't think it's petty at all. I understand an adaptation necessitates deviation from the text. I had quibbles with changes Jackson made to Lord of the Rings. But at the end of the day, I still felt the characters on screen were the same ones in the text. That part of the adaptation was true. The same cannot be said for Game of Thrones. I don't mind that Littlefinger didn't utter "only Cat." Or that the Hound didn't tell Beric "This cave is dark, too. But I'm the terror here." My problem is that the show is fundamentally altering who these characters are. They're changing their personalities, their motivations, their desires, etc. That isn't an adaptation. That's AU fanfiction. The Cersei on screen has a completely different set of values and actions than does the one on the page. 

 

No, it's an adaptation. Adaptations are fully capable of diverging from source material or altering core elements. Example: FMA 2003 altered how characters were in the source material and drastically altered the story. Do you ever hear people calling that "fanfiction"? No, because it's absurd, spiteful, and plain unnecessary. It's an adaptation. Just because the show is establishing the characters in its own way doesn't warrant it to be labeled fanfiction, It's disrespectful to label it with a spiteful term like such.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 14 April 2015 - 03:57 PM.

[Luna m.]

 

I'll wait until I see episode 4 in three weeks to discuss the writing with you. As someone who hasn't read the books and thereby has a view of the characters and story with no preconceptions, and who's just seen the first episode of season 5 by now, the show is doing great.

 

Anyways, the writing isn't the subject here. Calling it "fanfiction" is condescending and petty.

 

 

Yes for non books readers.

 

 

I don't think it's petty at all. I understand an adaptation necessitates deviation from the text. I had quibbles with changes Jackson made to Lord of the Rings. But at the end of the day, I still felt the characters on screen were the same ones in the text. That part of the adaptation was true. The same cannot be said for Game of Thrones. I don't mind that Littlefinger didn't utter "only Cat." Or that the Hound didn't tell Beric "This cave is dark, too. But I'm the terror here." My problem is that the show is fundamentally altering who these characters are. They're changing their personalities, their motivations, their desires, etc. That isn't an adaptation. That's AU fanfiction. The Cersei on screen has a completely different set of values and actions than does the one on the page. 

100 % agree

 

 

No, it's an adaptation. Adaptations are fully capable of diverging from source material or altering core elements. Example: FMA 2003 altered how characters were in the source material and drastically altered the story. Do you ever hear people calling that "fanfiction"? No, because it's absurd, spiteful, and plain unnecessary. It's an adaptation. Just because the show is establishing the characters in its own way doesn't warrant it to be labeled fanfiction, It's disrespectful to label it with a spiteful term like such.

 

Adaptation are season 1-4. Now is pure fanfic. Tx to GRMM trough.

 

Over all:

I agree with narutofan here.
You are show watcher. You are ok with  the show. I am book reader and  i dont like it.
let me explain:
After this naruto fiasco i needed to find new obsession.  I watch GOT all 4 seasons in 1 week and i find one.  I was GOT fanatic.Good show good story.But...
Then I start reading the books.yes i am that kind of fanatic Atm i am on book 3.My preferences changed. Books are 100 % better then the show.
Show gives faces, but books gives feelings .And the  show skips a lot. Sandor x sansa things e.g..
Sansa is my fav i know she is Alayne in Eyrie and i read new sansa pov and i like it.I dont like this wf "dark sansa " bolton stuff. I will comment more after ep 3

Edited by Luna m., 14 April 2015 - 09:10 PM.

[Nar123]

This new Sansa storyline  ... c'mon D&D I thought you guys could do better than this ? Srsly ?

 

From the first ep, tho, I have to say the wall is by far the best part of the show, as it was in the books. Stannis is a great foil for Jon, their interactions are gold.

[Luna m.]

The Wall is the best part of the story/show .From season/ book 1 

Edited by Luna m., 14 April 2015 - 08:44 PM.

[sushi.]

 

No, it's an adaptation. Adaptations are fully capable of diverging from source material or altering core elements. Example: FMA 2003 altered how characters were in the source material and drastically altered the story. Do you ever hear people calling that "fanfiction"? No, because it's absurd, spiteful, and plain unnecessary. It's an adaptation. Just because the show is establishing the characters in its own way doesn't warrant it to be labeled fanfiction, It's disrespectful to label it with a spiteful term like such.

I never saw anyone calling it fanfiction, including myself. :/ And don't act like you have a more objective opinion because you are not a book fan. You actually sound like a pro-ending fan from Naruto. Just like they tell us to respect Kishimoto, which I don't, you tell people here to respect D&D, which I don't. The show has reduced a series with a wonderful and deep message to kill, sex, hate, die. That's a lot to be upset about.

Look at this

Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?

I think that quote represents the books so well. It's just like the cycle of hatred in Naruto, where vengeance is wrong. (and a very pitiful and overused plot) In the show, Ellaria wants revenge just like the 3 snakes. In the books. Arya doesn't, but in the show she does. D&D have strategically picked what attributes of the character they want to embrace, and throw in the trash. There is a reason they cut Arianne Martell completely out. It angers me because it all boils down to two racist, misogynistic a**holes who disgrace the books.

[六道仙人]

great season premiere.

[Narufan85]

 

No, it's an adaptation. Adaptations are fully capable of diverging from source material or altering core elements. Example: FMA 2003 altered how characters were in the source material and drastically altered the story. Do you ever hear people calling that "fanfiction"? No, because it's absurd, spiteful, and plain unnecessary. It's an adaptation. Just because the show is establishing the characters in its own way doesn't warrant it to be labeled fanfiction, It's disrespectful to label it with a spiteful term like such.

 

If it's disrespectful, so be it. They are doing a terrible job adapting the text. Again, making logical changes is fine. Completely changing the nature of characters is not. As for your FMA response, well, they had to make Brotherhood because everyone realized the first FMA was terrible. There are some serious problems with AFfC and DwD, but they're still way better than what we're seeing on the show and if it means disrespecting this garbage adaptation, I don't mind.

 

This new Sansa storyline  ... c'mon D&D I thought you guys could do better than this ? Srsly ?

 

From the first ep, tho, I have to say the wall is by far the best part of the show, as it was in the books. Stannis is a great foil for Jon, their interactions are gold.

I actually think the show is pretty darn entertaining as a show. I can't wait for all the Stannis-Jon interactions. I hope they keep Sam's storyline the same. I really think there's some good stuff where he can shine onboard the ship. 

 

The Wall is the best part of the story/show .From season/ book 1 

 

It's funny. I hear a lot of show-only folk talk about how Bran's storyline is "so dull" and "the WORST!" I think it's the most fascinating and engaging part of the entire series. 

 

I never saw anyone calling it fanfiction, including myself. :/ And don't act like you have a more objective opinion because you are not a book fan. You actually sound like a pro-ending fan from Naruto. Just like they tell us to respect Kishimoto, which I don't, you tell people here to respect D&D, which I don't. The show has reduced a series with a wonderful and deep message to kill, sex, hate, die. That's a lot to be upset about.

Look at this

Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?

I think that quote represents the books so well. It's just like the cycle of hatred in Naruto, where vengeance is wrong. (and a very pitiful and overused plot) In the show, Ellaria wants revenge just like the 3 snakes. In the books. Arya doesn't, but in the show she does. D&D have strategically picked what attributes of the character they want to embrace, and throw in the trash. There is a reason they cut Arianne Martell completely out. It angers me because it all boils down to two racist, misogynistic a**holes who disgrace the books.

 

I called it fanfiction, actually, but I don't regret it. And your quote about Ellia is so absolutely spot on. They're trouncing her character. What bothers me is they cut so many little things that, when taken together, could add so much to the show. But they always have time to show how gay Loras is. Remember? He's gay. Forget the fact that "when the sun has set, no candle can replace it." Or they have plenty of time to turn Ros into Littlefinger's accountant only to kill her when the actress said she didn't want to get naked anymore.

[CloudMountainJuror]

 

If it's disrespectful, so be it. They are doing a terrible job adapting the text. Again, making logical changes is fine. Completely changing the nature of characters is not. As for your FMA response, well, they had to make Brotherhood because everyone realized the first FMA was terrible. There are some serious problems with AFfC and DwD, but they're still way better than what we're seeing on the show and if it means disrespecting this garbage adaptation, I don't mind.

 

At least you admit you're going to continue to be childish about it. Though I feel bad I ever brought the word "disrespect" into this; it seems to be taking away from my point. It's about accuracy. My problem isn't that you're being disrespectful, it's that you're forsaking accuracy for the sake of trying to be disrespectful, and it's obnoxious.

 

And yeah, no. People wanted an anime adaptation of FMA that followed the manga, sure. But everyone did not "realize" it was terrible. There are many, including myself, who consider FMA 2003 vastly superior to FMA Brotherhood in tons of ways. But that's a different, never-ending war of a subject. Still, you want a better comparison? Ok. The Eragon movie is widely considered by just about everyone I've ever seen to be a horrible movie. But it's still an adaptation of the book, no matter how you slice it, no matter how different it treated its characters and story. And it treated them pretty damn differently, considering they made it impossible to make the sequel Eldest should they have decided to keep following the book plotline.

Yes for non books readers.

 

100 % agree

 

Adaptation are season 1-4. Now is pure fanfic. Tx to GRMM trough.

 

Over all:

I agree with narutofan here.
Your are show watcher. You are ok with  the show. I am book reader and  i dont like it.
let me explain:
After this naruto fiasco i needed to find new obsession.  I watch GOT all 4 seasons in 1 week and i find one.  I was GOT fanatic.Good show good story.But...
Then I start reading the books.yes i am that kind of fanatic Atm i am on book 3.My preferences changed. Books are 100 % better then the show.
Show gives faces, but books gives feelings .And the  show skips a lot. Sandor x sansa things e.g..
Sansa is my fav i know she is Alayne in Eyrie and i read new sansa pov and i like it.I dont like this wf "dark sansa " bolton stuff. I will comment more after ep 3

 

By definition. It's an adaptation. That is set in stone. That's what it is. It doesn't matter whether you like the show or not. It's an adaptation. That is what it is. That is what it's called. I can't believe you're trying to argue that it isn't. It's ridiculous.

 

It doesn't matter whether you like the books more than the show. It doesn't matter how "ok" you are with it. It doesn't matter if your preferences changed. It doesn't matter how you feel about the show. The show is an adaptation, love it or hate it. That is what it is. That is what it's called. Intentionally slandering it by calling it fanfiction is childish. That is letting your feelings get in the way of fact, and kitten like that contributes to a a stigma that damages the atmosphere of honest discussion and the enjoyment of non-book readers.

 

If you don't like the direction the show is going, fine. Say you're displeased. Say you don't like it. Just, please, for the sake of peace and reason, don't snidely slander it by misidentifying it.

 

I never saw anyone calling it fanfiction, including myself. :/ And don't act like you have a more objective opinion because you are not a book fan. You actually sound like a pro-ending fan from Naruto. Just like they tell us to respect Kishimoto, which I don't, you tell people here to respect D&D, which I don't. The show has reduced a series with a wonderful and deep message to kill, sex, hate, die. That's a lot to be upset about.

 

Before anything, go back and look at who I was replying to. Look at who I quoted in my first recent post. It seems like you missed the entire point of me saying anything. I said something in the first place because someone said the show was turning into fanfiction.

 

I'm not asking you to "respect" the show, necessarily. I'm asking people not to misidentify it because they're butthurt the show is going a different direction. The Naruto analogy also doesn't hold here; Naruto's ending wasn't "fanfiction". It was real. That was the ending. That is the official ending. That is fact, no matter how bad it might have been.

 

As for the "objective opinion", I argue every non-book reader has a more objective view of the show than book readers do. I'll elaborate, as that statement probably doesn't mean what you think it means on first glance. By the very nature of having no preconceptions from the source material. we are seeing the show for exactly what is there, and nothing else. We aren't seeing missing or altered plotlines/characters, we aren't seeing altered dialogue. We are experiencing this all for the very first time. We inherently have a "cleaner" view of the show because of that, so to speak.

 

Now, I wouldn't say that having a more objective view of the show necessarily makes us more correct. But it inherently, unarguably makes us more objective about the material in the show. When I said I was speaking as a non-book reader who had only seen up until season 5 episode 1, that's what I meant I was speaking as. I wasn't speaking as a god, or as an ultimate judge. I was speaking as a non-book reader who had only seen up until season 5 episode 1.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 15 April 2015 - 01:13 AM.

[Narufan85]

Yeah, it's not childish to want a faithful adaptation? That's dismissing my point through laziness. And I'm certainly not alone in my position. So you are totally cool with all the important plot points that have been cut for more torture porn and sexploitation? Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I'd rather they take two seconds to mention the Valonqar than show us another naked prostitute.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Yeah, it's not childish to want a faithful adaptation? That's dismissing my point through laziness. And I'm certainly not alone in my position. So you are totally cool with all the important plot points that have been cut for more torture porn and sexploitation? Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I'd rather they take two seconds to mention the Valonqar than show us another naked prostitute.

 

It's not childish to want a faithful adaptation. It's childish to - I'll say it again - forsake accuracy for the sake of trying to be disrespectful. Discussion on the quality of the material isn't relevant on this subject. We clearly have such different opinions on the show's quality that even trying to persuade one another over it would be a massive waste of time. Yes, I'm fine with the "important" plot points that have been cut because they were never in the show's canon to begin with. They never existed in the show, so they don't matter in the show. But this isn't even about that. This is about purposefully misidentifying the show in an attempt to be snide.

 

I'm down to talk about the show with others, even the ones who dislike it. But seeing underhanded condescension like this ruins the whole experience. Obnoxious crap like this discourages me from even looking at GoT discussions in the first place, and I know I'm not the only one.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 15 April 2015 - 12:13 AM.

[Narufan85]

 

It's not childish to want a faithful adaptation. It's childish to - I'll say it again - forsake accuracy for the sake of trying to be disrespectful. Discussion on the quality of the material isn't relevant on this subject. We clearly have such different opinions on the show's quality that even trying to persuade one another over it would be a massive waste of time. Yes, I'm fine with the "important" plot points that have been cut because they were never in the show's canon to begin with. They never existed in the show, so they don't matter for the show. But this isn't about that. This is about purposefully misidentifying the show in an attempt to be snide.

 

I'm down to talk about the show with others, even the ones who dislike it. But seeing underhanded condescension like this ruins the whole experience. Obnoxious crap like this discourages me from even looking at GoT discussions in the first place, and I know I'm not the only one.

 

I acknowledge I'm rather... firm in my opinions. But you've also been rather condescending, calling my opinions disrespectful and childish. And there is only one canon, that which comes from George R.R. Martin. It should have been obvious that D&D wanted to make their own show when they chose to ignore the actual name of the series in favor of the title of the first book.

 

You cannot talk about the show without taking into consideration the ongoing source material from which it draws. As such, you must take into consideration the fact that the show producers are more concerned with cheap thrills than plot and themes. How, exactly am I misidentifying the show to be snide? 

 

I admit, this is one of the few times I've engaged so heavily from the position of a book snob, but I understand now why it's frustrating to have these conversations with non-readers. I don't really think, however forceful I've been in arguing, you have much ground to lecture me about what plot points are worth cutting. That doesn't give you much actual ground to stand on when you are assessing if this is a good adaptation or not.

 

Finally, I apologize for being direct. This is an issue I feel strongly about. But I don't think I've been overly rude. Certainly not enough for you to take your ball and go home.

Edited by Narufan85, 15 April 2015 - 12:19 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

 

I acknowledge I'm rather... firm in my opinions. But you've also been rather condescending, calling my opinions disrespectful and childish. And there is only one canon, that which comes from George R.R. Martin. It should have been obvious that D&D wanted to make their own show when they chose to ignore the actual name of the series in favor of the title of the first book.

 

You cannot talk about the show without taking into consideration the ongoing source material from which it draws. As such, you must take into consideration the fact that the show producers are more concerned with cheap thrills than plot and themes.

 

I admit, this is one of the few times I've engaged so heavily from the position of a book snob, but I understand now why it's frustrating to have these conversations with non-readers. I don't really think, however forceful I've been in arguing, you have much ground to lecture me about what plot points are worth cutting. That doesn't give you much actual ground to stand on when you are assessing if this is a good adaptation or not.

 

Finally, I apologize for being direct. This is an issue I feel strongly about. But I don't think I've been overly rude. Certainly not enough for you to take your ball and go home.

 

I haven't been calling your opinions disrespectful and childish. I even explicitly said: "Discussion on the quality of the material isn't relevant on this subject". Read what I said. Your opinions on the quality of the show are not relevant here, just as mine aren't. Your dubbing the show as "fanfiction" is what I've been dubbing as disrespectful and childish. Because it is.

 

Yes. Yes you can talk about the show without knowledge of the books. The show is to be treated its own stand-alone story, as is every movie, show, anything based off of a book. If it doesn't stand on its own, it fails. The show is the show, and the books are the books. Their individual quality is their individual quality. They can be compared, but one does not determine the other. The Eragon movie failed because it was sloppy and hammy (among other reasons), not because it didn't follow the book's plotline. It failed because of its own individual traits, its own mistakes. It did not stand on its own, and so it failed. On the other hand, The Shining movie succeeded because it stood on its own as a film, due to its own merits, even though it was drastically different from the book in a ridiculous amount of ways.

 

I have not been lecturing you about what plot points are worth cutting. We haven't even discussed individual plot points or their worth. We just acknowledged that plot points were indeed cut, and I said the cut plot points don't matter for the show. Because, well, they aren't in the show. So, logically, they can't possibly matter for the show. Something that didn't happen can't affect the plot or characters of the show, because it didn't happen. 1 + 0 = 1.

That's it. We didn't go into any specifics on plot points. Nothing. This is the second time in one post that you've misread or misinterpreted what I said.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 15 April 2015 - 01:01 AM.

[rocci]

Wait, mance died?

The show can be reboot. So let just wait for the book to complete and wait for how this tv series end. Will it deviate from the book? or not.

I think for best in the future, the tv show need to completely branch off from the book. So in the reboot, the tv show could faithfully follow the novel.

[Narufan85]

Thoughts immediately following my viewing of tonight's episode.

 

General Spoilers

I enjoyed tonight's episode all in all. I'm really happy to see Jaqen H'ghar back. I think his actor does a fine job and it's a pretty spot on representation of what I imagined reading the books. I also love the House of Black and White so it was great seeing it for the first time.

 

I confess, I am utterly bored and uninterested in Sansa and Littlefinger. I loved Kevan standing up to Cersei. Brown's scene was nice as well. Tyron is as aggravating on the show this season as he is in DwD. It was also nice seeing Dorne for the first time.

 

Now, some thoughts as a book reader:

 

Book Spoilers

Who are these characters? Brienne is suddenly cutting people down left and right? Sansa's storyline is terrible. I realize her book stuff is really hard to adapt, because it is SOOOOO internal, but part of why I love her book chapters is because she finds ways to be so subversive and I really find that fascinating. Making everything so overt takes away some of the charm of her character.

 

Ellaria is completely different, too. As for Jaqen, while I like the actor, shouldn't he be at the Citadel? I really wanted to see that storyline play out because the idea of him bumping into Sam is so super interesting.

[Nar123]

Thoughts immediately following my viewing of tonight's episode.

 

General Spoilers

I enjoyed tonight's episode all in all. I'm really happy to see Jaqen H'ghar back. I think his actor does a fine job and it's a pretty spot on representation of what I imagined reading the books. I also love the House of Black and White so it was great seeing it for the first time.

 

I confess, I am utterly bored and uninterested in Sansa and Littlefinger. I loved Kevan standing up to Cersei. Brown's scene was nice as well. Tyron is as aggravating on the show this season as he is in DwD. It was also nice seeing Dorne for the first time.

 

Now, some thoughts as a book reader:

 

Book Spoilers

Who are these characters? Brienne is suddenly cutting people down left and right? Sansa's storyline is terrible. I realize her book stuff is really hard to adapt, because it is SOOOOO internal, but part of why I love her book chapters is because she finds ways to be so subversive and I really find that fascinating. Making everything so overt takes away some of the charm of her character.

 

Ellaria is completely different, too. As for Jaqen, while I like the actor, shouldn't he be at the Citadel? I really wanted to see that storyline play out because the idea of him bumping into Sam is so super interesting.

 

I agree with your interpretation as a book reader...this episode felt really off for me

 

Book Spoilers

It would probably be fine if I hadn't read the books before but since I have already read them, some changes feel are terribly aggravating like that one in Dany's conversation with Ser Barristan,Sansa's whole storyline this season, Varys entire's character and Ellaria's talk. But I wouldn't really worry about Jaqen since that's not him, it's just a no one from that organization using his face for fanservice

 

 

Now on a good note, the series is amazing from the visual aspect, seriously, the water gardens from Dorne are majestic and all the other locations were almost equally outsdanding

And once again the Stannis - Jon plot in the wall is the most interesting of the season until now

Edited by Nar123, 20 April 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[rocci]

If there's protagonist in a song of ice and fire, I think it is jon snow.

[Narufan85]

 

I agree with your interpretation as a book reader...this episode felt really off for me

 

Book Spoilers

It would probably be fine if I hadn't read the books before but since I have already read them, some changes feel are terribly aggravating like that one in Dany's conversation with Ser Barristan,Sansa's whole storyline this season, Varys entire's character and Ellaria's talk. But I wouldn't really worry about Jaqen since that's not him, it's just a no one from that organization using his face for fanservice

 

 

Now on a good note, the series is amazing from the visual aspect, seriously, the water gardens from Dorne are majestic and all the other locations were almost equally outsdanding

And once again the Stannis - Jon plot in the wall is the most interesting of the season until now

 

Book Spoilers

I hadn't considered that Jaqen was actually someone else simply using his face. That's my official head cannon. And to be honest, that's one adaptation that makes sense to me. Non-readers (or the Unsullied as they're called over at Westeros.org) have enough trouble keeping non-POV characters straight. There's no need to add the Kindly Man to further complicate things.

 

I'm quite torn about Mereen. I didn't like the conversation between Barristan and Dany, but the Merenese Knot is so frustrating in the book that I'm willing to see how it plays out on the show. 

 

You are spot on, the scenes at the Wall continue to be the strongest part of the show. I loved Sam's speech. While it would have been nice to see him do all the back channel stuff, that's just not going to work on the show. I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED that they included Lyanna's reply to Stannis. Jon's little smirk was so priceless.

What I didn't like about that, but I could probably justify, was the fact that Stannis didn't tell Jon he would have to reject the old Gods and burn the Heart Tree. That's a big reason why Jon turns him down. But seeing as how they really haven't focused on religion much outside Melisandre, it makes sense to cut it.

Edited by Narufan85, 20 April 2015 - 01:33 PM.

[Nar123]

If there's protagonist in a song of ice and fire, I think it is jon snow.

 

There is no protagonist 

 

and that's the beauty of it 

[rocci]

 
There is no protagonist 
 
and that's the beauty of it 

Yes, and that's why I said if there's protagonist.
And if r + l = j is right, well

[Narufan85]

Yesterday's episode made me very, very upset for a lot of reasons. I think I need to fundamentally alter how I watch the show because this is quickly becoming an untenable situation.