49 replies to this topic

[Syn11]

 

It's a better alternative because it doesn't equate mental illness to murderers and rapists. Mentally well people murder and rape all the time. It's time to get rid of the stigma that they are things that only "cr*zy" people do. He didn't do because he was mentally unsound. He did it because he decided that what he wanted to do was more important than the well being of others. 

 

Yes, I would prefer psychiatric terminology actually, so we're not throwing insults at people who don't deserve to be insulted. And of course I didn't point out the ableist connotations of the terms for the sake of the murderer; I did it for the sake of disabled people as a whole. I'm well aware of what you were referencing. 

 

(Throw a PM my way if you're interested in continuing this discussion. We're probably derailing this thread a bit too much.)

Not all mentally ill people are criminals, and not all criminals are mentally ill. I don't know how my words above favour the lack of ability to perform such a simple logical operation. I was talking about criminals who are mentally ill. This is a different set which is separated from just criminals and just mentally ill non-dangerous folk. Using psychiatric terminology is not an adequate way if you want to get your point across to those who are not in the field. It isn't hard to understand that a "nutcase" is resticted to the subject of this thread, and I'm not attempting to demonize every person who has some kind of mental disorder. Be more careful when turning on that ableist alarm.

 

Mental pathology or not is for psychiatric evalution to decide. The notion of free will is good and all, but it is a known fact that our free will is not exactly free (it is a product of many factors). We are talking about a young man with "suicide" (as he claims) and homicide sadistic tendencies, not about a respected man who suddenly battered his wife because she wanted to divorce him. You can call him a piece of kitten, and it will make sense. He may feel guilt and repent. But psychopaths are mostly incapable of such emotions. Kevin Davis is not Dostoyevsky's Raskolnikov. That is why calling such an individual a "piece of kitten" changes absolutely nothing. And yes, psycopaths (a lot of them, by the way, never have any problems with the law) kill and deceive on their own free will (no one puts those "voices" in their heads... and there are rarely any voices, they just feel like doing it without any good reason). Mental specifics (sociobiological in nature) are not an excuse in their case, it is a major factor that influences their behavior (like alcohol or drugs which impair judgement but are not considered extenuating circumstances) and actually toughens their prison sentence. And we need to "control" this factor as much as we can. Young psyco(or socio)paths' behavior (marked by violence) yields to the timely correction.      

 

It was an interesting discussion. However it was moslty based on misunderstanding. I'm sure as hell I didn't intend to insult a crowd of people. But next time I will choose my words more thoughtfully. Thank you.

 

Dixi.

Edited by Syn11, 12 October 2014 - 11:06 PM.

[Anthony]

What the actual kitten? Rotting in jail should do, the piece of kitten thinks he's above all.

 

Psychopaths everywhere. There should be surveys every year in every country, examination and all that. Even if it is expensive, a life is more valuable than kittening paper.

Edited by TeeBee, 12 October 2014 - 11:16 PM.

[KnS]

I think of worse crimes that happened before this. Check out Jeffery Dahmer's wiki page. Whatever it is you think he did, it was worse. Like drilling holes in the sides of people's heads and injecting acid in an attempt to creak zombies (they were alive when he did this) (this was the mid 1990's). John Wayne Gacy (raped and murdered 33 young boys) (1970's), Ed Gein (who inspired more than one horror movie villain, for example, Leather Face is based on him) was in the late 1950's. Gein had a low body count for a serial killer (2), but he did have a thing for whacking body parts off dead people just before burial though.

I can keep going.

EDIT: Forgot, the killer in psycho is also based on Gein.

 

I've been interested in studying serial killers for years.  Unfortunately there are a lot of cases to analyze, but of the cases you've mentioned....

 

Jeffrey Dahmer is a name that frequently pops up in such conversations, not only because of the number of victims but the manner of abuse to which they were subjected.  It's difficult to forget about a homosexual, necrophiliac, cannibalistic murderer whose basic motivations were sexual gratification and loneliness.

 

Then you've got a guy like John Wayne Gacy, another prolific murderer of young men. A couple of different things distinguish Gacy, including his seemingly normal home life and business accomplishments.  It's boggling to realize how many times the police failed to connect the dots, even though Gacy's name and or business was associated with many disappearances. 

 

Ed Gein is one of the most fascinating in the gallery, a schizophrenic necrophile and apparent cannibal with major mother issues.  You can't hear about a weird man who made suits out of women's skin and used their skulls as soup bowls and ever forget it.

 

But there are so many others.  Ted Bundy, Andrei Chikatilo (the Butcher of Rastov), Jerome Brudos, Keith Jesperson (the Happy Face Killer), Richard Ramirez.  The US has produced a frightening number of serial killers, but only Gary Ridgway (the Green River Killer) makes the top ten most prolific with 49 proven victims.

 

What has always interested me is what serial killers might have in common, what events occurred during their formative years that either generated or shaped their sociopathy/psychopathy, and the killer's reaction to their own behavior.

 

There's nothing simple about any of it.  The brain is an immensely complex organ, with interworkings and a capacity that science has only begun to properly investigate.  When something goes wrong with a brain it's not like a failing liver or kidney, or a spot on a lung.  Any number of pathologies can result from psychological trauma, structural defect, chemical imbalance, or all of the above.

 

I remember my neuro professor lecturing about the dangers of the tendency to compartmentalize or label behavior and mental illness. Even the label "mental illness" is unfair, as it implies that the sufferers' deficiency or issues are automatically subject to moral judgment.  It's a normal human reaction, but one of emotion not objective logic.

 

The article included at the beginning of this thread doesn't contain a lot of information, but it appears the kid is a sociopath. He could be a psychopath, depending on how much he might have been coached on what statements to make about his behavior.  

 

Either way, he's unlikely to be mistaken about killing again if he were released. It's also a waste of emotional energy to hate him, define him as a piece of human excrement, or prefer he rot in prison so he has time to consider what he did.  Although it's not impossible (with medication and a lifetime of therapy), it's highly unlikely he will ever be able to view his behavior or be shocked by his actions the way "normal" people will.  Or care what you think about him or what he did.

 

On the subject of capital punishment....  Of the serial killers mentioned earlier, Gacy, Bundy, and Chikatilo were executed, while Dahmer was murdered in prison and Ramirez died of lymphoma (if I remember correctly) while on death row.  In all these cases, and those of many other serial killers, there was/is no question about their guilt.  It's my personal opinion that the world is no worse off for their departures.

 

For people who are serious in their concern for the falsely imprisoned, you might look into supporting the Innocence Project. 

[Nate River]

But there are so many others.  Ted Bundy, Andrei Chikatilo (the Butcher of Rastov), Jerome Brudos, Keith Jesperson (the Happy Face Killer), Richard Ramirez.  The US has produced a frightening number of serial killers, but only Gary Ridgway (the Green River Killer) makes the top ten most prolific with 49 proven victims.

I picked Gein and Dahmer because of the sheer horror involved in those crimes. Gacy because it's of the same vein as this crime, only so much worse. Gacy worked as a volunteer clown for kids.

My basic point was that this case isn't even close to the worst. I am familiar with Bundy, Brudos, and Ridgeway. Ridgeway and Bundy didn't do the grotesque behavior of Gein and Dahmer (by that I mean, they didn't mutilate the bodies the way the others did). They are notorious for their body counts. Ridgeway's is estimated to be 71. I think Bundy's was over 30. I also think he managed to escape custody once and then murder while on the run.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about Jesperson and Ramirez. There's Bradford (first name escapes me), Christopher Wilder and so on. ALthough I don't know if Wilder is a serial killer or simply just a spree killer.

I remember I watching the Dahmer one at like 12:00 in the morning. I had trouble sleep when I did that. As I said before, whatever it is people think he did. It was worse.

EDIT: I add that in Dahmer's case they had a chance to catch him half way through. One of his victims escaped and Dahmer managed to convince the office to return him to Dahmer's custody. I'd have to check the wiki page to recall the specific.

Gacy was eventually done in by the odor all the bodies produced from the crawl space where he entombed them.
 

There's nothing simple about any of it.  The brain is an immensely complex organ, with interworkings and a capacity that science has only begun to properly investigate.  When something goes wrong with a brain it's not like a failing liver or kidney, or a spot on a lung.  Any number of pathologies can result from psychological trauma, structural defect, chemical imbalance, or all of the above.
 
I remember my neuro professor lecturing about the dangers of the tendency to compartmentalize or label behavior and mental illness. Even the label "mental illness" is unfair, as it implies that the sufferers' deficiency or issues are automatically subject to moral judgment.  It's a normal human reaction, but one of emotion not objective logic.
 
The article included at the beginning of this thread doesn't contain a lot of information, but it appears the kid is a sociopath. He could be a psychopath, depending on how much he might have been coached on what statements to make about his behavior.  
 
Either way, he's unlikely to be mistaken about killing again if he were released. It's also a waste of emotional energy to hate him, define him as a piece of human excrement, or prefer he rot in prison so he has time to consider what he did.  Although it's not impossible (with medication and a lifetime of therapy), it's highly unlikely he will ever be able to view his behavior or be shocked by his actions the way "normal" people will.  Or care what you think about him or what he did.
 
On the subject of capital punishment....  Of the serial killers mentioned earlier, Gacy, Bundy, and Chikatilo were executed, while Dahmer was murdered in prison and Ramirez died of lymphoma (if I remember correctly) while on death row.  In all these cases, and those of many other serial killers, there was/is no question about their guilt.  It's my personal opinion that the world is no worse off for their departures.

Gein was thought to have a massive fixation on his mother. His house was a wreck, except for the room his mother used while she was alive.

Ridgeway is still in prison. I know as part of his plea he had identify/confirm many of his victims, which is not that unusual. I don't know if he avoided death because of that, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[KnS]

I picked Gein and Dahmer because of the sheer horror involved in those crimes. Gacy because it's of the same vein as this crime, only so much worse. Gacy worked as a volunteer clown for kids.

 

I know.  There are some truly horrific stories out there.  I think it might be the addition of necrophilia and cannibalism that bothers people so much about their crimes.  Dahmer's pathological need for companionship and control led him to his zombie experiments, and eventually to cannibalism. And it's so weird -- that a guy who was capable of those acts would at the same time suffer from isolation and try to resolve it through utterly inhuman means.

 

In truth, Dahmer and Gein combined killed considerably less than Gacy. It's true that Dahmer was nearly caught once, and it's difficult to believe that none of his neighbors had a clue what he was doing in his apartment.  But it still doesn't beat the astonishing number of times Gacy came to the attention of police and nothing was done.  

 

Gacy killed so many boys over a relatively short period of time, and even admitted to killing more than one in an evening. Boys who worked for is company or had been promised employment there.  Other boys hired to dig trenches in the crawl space of Gacy's home and spread lime.  How could none of them have realized?  How could they not smell the decomposition?  How could they not have seen something?  It boggles the mind.

 

Overall, though, I think Ramirez is the one that gets me. His crimes were so random, so unpredictable.  His victims fit no pattern.  He killed men and women alike, but raped and sodomized only the female victims.  Didn't matter if they were 18 or 80.  If there was ever an agent of chaos, like a real-life Joker, it was Ramirez.

My basic point was that this case isn't even close to the worst. 

 

Yeah, I get that.  And I agree.  It isn't.  But I find it disturbing to say, nevertheless.  I fear society's slow desensitization to these kinds of killers.  The fact that it isn't the worst should make it no less horrific to us.

Gein was thought to have a massive fixation on his mother. His house was a wreck, except for the room his mother used while she was alive.

 

That's why I was starting to call Black Zetsu "Norman Bates."  His fixation on his "mother" was very reminiscent of Bates, who as you pointed out was based on Gein.

 

Out of all the serial killer cases I've studied and other weird stories I've reviewed, there's another one that I will never forget:  Carl Tanzler, aka Carl von Cosel.  He was not a killer, but possessed of an equally disturbing pathology.  

[Ace of Circle]

The scariest thing in this world is the people...how messed up can we get?I guarantee that in human depravity this is only the tip of the iceberg,but humans do good things sometimes too,I guess the more you think about something, even if it's not in a bad way, the closer you are to it.

[somilmish]

=/
really?
sad.

US does not have death sentence?Wonder what motivated him.
I cant believe that he just up and decided one day that he would do this...

He was a scum.

[Win-chan]

Just from reading that I'd wonder if he's got severe antisocial disorder. Objectively, he understands it was wrong, but mentally he doesn't give a crap *shudders* Man that was disgusting. My face while I was reading that went from creeped out to absolutely horrified and disgusted. How can a person BE that way? Oh my gosh I just can't even handle how horrible that is.

Edited by Win-chan, 06 January 2015 - 04:01 AM.

[Nate River]

=/
really?
sad.

US does not have death sentence?Wonder what motivated him.
I cant believe that he just up and decided one day that he would do this...

He was a scum.

 

At the federal level yes, and some State's do. Some State's do not. Texas does have it, but only for Capital Murder. I'm not sure this would qualify. Captial murder is essentially murder plus one. Statute defines what extra things would qualify to turn Murder into Capital Murder.

 

Murder in the course of a aggravated sexual assault would do it, but she was dead at the time he sexually violated her (at least according to the link). I'd have to research it, but that may be Abuse of a Corpose and not sexual assault. Moreover, that it is available does not mean it will be invoked. As to why, it's case specific and I am not going to speculate on so little information.