72 replies to this topic

[Nar123]

What I found funny was in the end Tobirama was proven right. He was right in a sense to not trust the Uchiha. They were segregated somewhat yes, but they weren't openly ostracized. They weren't slaves or outcasts or exiled by the village. They didn't have the power or say they wanted when it came to village politics and protocols so they to planned a coup. So why am I supposed to feel sorry for them? They were the ones willing to risk civil war just for more power in Konoha. It was that choice that gave Danzo the opening he needed to deal with them. It's one of the few times in this manga you see a choice lead to devastating consequences.

 

I've always believed that you must take responsibility for your choices and accept the consequences of those choices whether good or bad. While I don't like Itachi's character I never really disliked it either because he was shown to be willing to suffer the consequences of his choices. He chose the safety of his little brother over his entire clan. The safety of Konoha I always felt was secondary. But he was willing to take on the consequences anyhow.

 

Hiruzen Sarutobi was also shown to be someone who knew that one day he would have to answer for the choices he made, and answer he did. However these seem to be the exceptions to the rule in this manga. Forgiveness and redemption without consequence became the norm. The hokages, the counsel and the village itself became the excuses for Kishi to use to try and pull that ideal off. Once Kishi decided that he was truly going to focus on the redemption of certain characters rather than the change and justice that was supposed to be brought on by others, the story was ruined. So instead of the heroic tale of Naruto Uzumaki, we got the redemptive tale of Sasuke and the Uchiha clan.

 

You're not supposed to feel sorry for them but you're supposed to understand that konha had a part to blame too

 

And Tobirama was proven right because of his  own actions, his fear and distrust generated anger and hate within the clan

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

You're not supposed to feel sorry for them but you're supposed to understand that konha had a part to blame too

 

And Tobirama was proven right because of his  own actions, his fear and distrust generated anger and hate within the clan

Which is why I said that each side holds some blame in it, not just Konoha and/or Tobirama like so many seem to want.

Even with what Tobirama did, there were still also most likely other options the Uchiha Clan could've taken (a coup should've been the absolute last resort unless things really got out of hand, which it didn't from what I could tell), but they chose not to take them and, instead, just let their own anger and whatnot stew for decades while, on the outside, appearing to be accepting barring more outspoken ones later like Fugaku. This is where they bear some responsibility. And even if Tobirama didn't do anything, from how the "Curse of Hatred" was described, the Uchiha Clan would have inevitably ended up doing something bad (essentially being predestined to), going down a "dark path" out of "too much love". One of Kishi's ultimate attempts to absolve responsibility only shoots them in the foot; another show of how badly Kishi didn't think things through and his inability to properly execute such things.

[Sarahmint]

The moment I learned about Itachi's motivation, my first instinct was "well this is kitten", while my second thought was "wait a minute!  Naruto is going to defect from Konoha only to return and become Kage or something even greater to end the evil system!

 

Soon I believed Sasuke was going to be this.  

 

That was shattered in chapter 699 with "I'm sorry for everything I've ever done".  Well that was easy, Naruto.  Sasuke just removed everything that he stood for on a whim of laughing at Naruto and giving up on trying to kill his dearest friend.  Naruto does nothing about changing the system either (along with getting the credit for Ino and Madara's work of uniting the world and then uniting their hearts).

 

As for Tobirama, he did contribute to one of these steps:

 

 

And Hiruzen completed the genocide with step 8. This was absolute as he died with only Itachi and the elders knowing about it.

Edited by Sarahmint, 11 July 2015 - 08:14 AM.

[BlackBird19]

My thing is that Tobirama didn't do anything to them but dislike them. He didn't trust them but he sure as hell didn't try to exile them either. They were still a major part of the village. Sarutobi didn't really do anything to them either. So they felt slighted, distrust and to be quite honest paranoia and figured a coup was the answer. That's not a good enough reason to come up with an idea as violent as a coup. No, what happened to the Uchiha was their own fault no matter the mitigating circumstances. The Uchiha are the ones that chose to coup de taut. Not Tobirama, not Sarutobi or Konoha as a whole. It was the Uchiha's choice and their choice alone. They would of held the brunt of the blame whether they had been massacred or had successfully pulled off the coup. Blood just happened to be on the hands of those who committed the massacre rather than on the Uchiha's hands for the number of people who would've died during their coup.

 

But that's just me. I don't believe in excuses. Once you make one excuse then you can keep making others until you truly believe it's everyone else's fault but yours. You see it in everyday life where criminals blame everything from the system to their environment for why they committed a crime. I'm sure it played a role in it, but the fault still lies with the person committing the crime because they chose to do so. That's why I hold the Uchiha more responsible for their plight more than I ever will Konoha or Tobirama.

Edited by BlackBird19, 11 July 2015 - 08:36 AM.

[Nar123]

Which is why I said that each side holds some blame in it, not just Konoha and/or Tobirama like so many seem to want.

Even with what Tobirama did, there were still also most likely other options the Uchiha Clan could've taken (a coup should've been the absolute last resort unless things really got out of hand, which it didn't from what I could tell), but they chose not to take them and, instead, just let their own anger and whatnot stew for decades while, on the outside, appearing to be accepting barring more outspoken ones later like Fugaku. This is where they bear some responsibility. And even if Tobirama didn't do anything, from how the "Curse of Hatred" was described, the Uchiha Clan would have inevitably ended up doing something bad (essentially being predestined to), going down a "dark path" out of "too much love". One of Kishi's ultimate attempts to absolve responsibility only shoots them in the foot; another show of how badly Kishi didn't think things through and his inability to properly execute such things.

 

I agree with the bolded part, the rest, well it's unknown if the Uchiha would end up being pushed to Madara's ideals if Tobirama wasn't being an ass, as it stands, it was thanks to Tobirama that Madara's supporters within the clan gained strenght 

Besides not every member of the clan was affected by this curse to begin with, Shisui had the magekyou and still managed to keep his mind sane, the thing about this curse of hatred thing within the clan, is that it's just another shady plot point that Kishi used to try to make things less complex in story terms and ended up failing and making something that it's hard to pinpoint it's accuracy

 

 

But I agree with you also on the matter of some parties in the story not ever appearing to receive a degree of responsability for their past actions

 

 

 

My thing is that Tobirama didn't do anything to them but dislike them. He didn't trust them but he sure as hell didn't try to exile them either. They were still a major part of the village. Sarutobi didn't really do anything to them either. So they felt slighted, distrust and to be quite honest paranoia and figured a coup was the answer. That's not a good enough reason to come up with an idea as violent as a coup. No, what happened to the Uchiha was their own fault no matter the mitigating circumstances. The Uchiha are the ones that chose to coup de taut. Not Tobirama, not Sarutobi or Konoha as a whole. It was the Uchiha's choice and their choice alone. They would of held the brunt of the blame whether they had been massacred or had successfully pulled off the coup. Blood just happened to be on the hands of those who committed the massacre rather than on the Uchiha's hands for the number of people who would've died during their coup.

 

But that's just me. I don't believe in excuses. Once you make one excuse then you can keep making others until you truly believe it's everyone else's fault but yours. You see it in everyday life where criminals blame everything from the system to their environment for why they committed a crime. I'm sure it played a role in it, but the fault still lies with the person committing the crime because they chose to do so. That's why I hold the Uchiha more responsible for their plight more than I ever will Konoha or Tobirama.

 

I agree that the Uchiha ultimately choose the coup instead of looking for another peaceful solution and for that they are to blame, but Tobirama pushed them to that degree

 

Tobirama was the one who segregrated them ( knowingly or unknowingly), he was the one who (maybe) started spying on them because " most uchiha = evil " in his mind . They were pratically exiled anfd forgotten about,lost prestige within the village and had to stay in the outskirts as theis positoon of police had to make them stay near the cells, this is sure to bother the proudest members of the clan, so ultimately Tobirama's actions are what sparked the seed of rebellion in their minds

 

Sarutobi is to blame too as I said before he gave Sanzo free reign, and Danzo is the one person who was most interested in the massacre, he stopped Shisui ( who was going to stop the rebellion) and then he pretty much manipulated things to go in his way in the end. If Sarutobi had given Danzo and hard time and stopped him from building too much power maybe the outcome would've been different so yeah the uchiha are too blame but tihs doesn't make konoha, Sarutobi and Tobirama less respoonsibles for their tragic outcome

[BlackBird19]

@ Nar123 in regards to your argument about Tobirama being at fault. I have a question for you. If myself and a group of my friends let it be known that we didn't like a certain other group who had a shifty history and all we did was avoid them and warn some others to be careful around them. But that's it, nothing more than that and they decide to make a plan and then violently attack us. Would it truly be my fault that I was attacked? Would I hold just as much responsibility as the people who took time to plan and execute a violent attack on another person who never physically did anything to them? Who would honestly hold more of the responsibility?

 

 

My answer to those questions is the reason I put most of the blame on the Uchiha.   

[Nar123]

@ Nar123 in regards to your argument about Tobirama being at fault. I have a question for you. If myself and a group of my friends let it be known that we didn't like a certain other group who had a shifty history and all we did was avoid them and warn some others to be careful around them. But that's it, nothing more than that and they decide to make a plan and then violently attack us. Would it truly be my fault that I was attacked? Would I hold just as much responsibility as the people who took time to plan and execute a violent attack on another person who never physically did anything to them? Who would honestly hold more of the responsibility?

 

 

My answer to those questions is the reason I put most of the blame on the Uchiha.   

 

No, but at the same time, you're not a leader of a village or something like that

 

 

If you are the leader of a group in which such person of dubious past in inserted into will you just forget about him and isolate him? That's a bad idea. 

 

Tobirama was just too stubborn to change his mind, the Uchiha were fine in konoha chosing it instead of Madara's solution of running away at the time, however his actions ended up isolating the clan and creating what he feared the Uchiha already were

Edited by Nar123, 11 July 2015 - 09:42 PM.

[sushi.]

It's not just Tobirama and Konoha. They are just small examples of Kishi's twisted idea of peace, forgiveness, and love. The author himself doesn't understand the corruption he wrote about, he just shoots with closed eyes, not caring who he hits, and doesn't deal with any of the consequences. He's an expert at writing himself into a corner. It's just like he tells himself he can do this, then he figures out he cannot and then comes plotholes and excuses and he pretends like nothing happened.

Edited by sushi., 11 July 2015 - 09:58 PM.

[Nar123]

It's not just Tobirama and Konoha. They are just small examples of Kishi's twisted idea of peace, forgiveness, and love. The author himself doesn't understand the corruption he wrote about, he just shoots with closed eyes, not caring who he hits, and doesn't deal with any of the consequences. He's an expert at writing himself into a corner. It's just like he tells himself he can do this, then he figures out he cannot and then comes plotholes and excuses and he pretends like nothing happened.

 

This

 

Everything comes down to Kishi's inability as a writer

that's why we have this mess of a story

[BlackBird19]

I think we all can agree with sushi's post. At the end of the day the entire convoluted history of Konoha and the Uchiha clan was just Kishi's poorly executed reasons for Sasuke to be absolved of blame and give him a harsh past that rivals or outweighs Naruto's own.

[AHK]

Tobirama had absolutely nothing to do with it besides his initial distrust of the Uchiha. He didn't segregate them, that happened after Obito attacked, which was under Hiruzens reign. Hiruzen and Danzo are the ones at fault, along with the Uchiha.

Edited by AHK, 12 July 2015 - 02:12 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I think we all can agree with sushi's post. At the end of the day the entire convoluted history of Konoha and the Uchiha clan was just Kishi's poorly executed reasons for Sasuke to be absolved of blame and give him a harsh past that rivals or outweighs Naruto's own.

Actually, when one thinks about, Naruto still had it far worse than Sasuke. Sasuke is merely riding the coattails of his clan's history. Otherwise, the massacre itself was the only real bad thing in his life that was completely out of his control (as he didn't know anything about such history at the time). Otherwise, at least he still has memories of his family, was treated like royalty afterwards and so on. It was only his own inability to move on and find his own way in life that lead him to willingly make the choices he did that landed himself in such hard spots.

Naruto may not have had such memories at the time, but he still lost everything when Minato and Kushina were mortally wounded by an Obito-controlled Kurama and whatnot, and on top of that, at least us knowing about the Uzumaki Clan also being completely destroyed because, unlike the Uchiha, which was largely left alone most of the time until suspicion boiled over after Kurama's attack (which, one has to admit, was understandable when you consider Hashirama was dead while there were many Sharingan users and Kurama just so happened to attack Konoha literally out of nowhere), the Uzumaki Clan were mostly destroyed by who knows how many villages solely because they were feared for their fuijutsu prowess and "special chakra" and such when, as far as we know, they never did anything to deserve it at all. Then you have Naruto's treatment throughout his childhood and other things represented through the constant "Naruto gone wrong" foils in antagonists (which really should've stopped after Nagato).

Compared to Sasuke, Naruto had far more reason to hate, betray, and destroy Konoha than Sasuke ever did right from the get-go. It's only because, again because of Kishi's complete bias, we get far more (mish-mashed) details involving the Uchiha than we ever did or will with the Uzumaki Clan, coupled with Sasuke constantly made the MC and focus, that it makes it easy to overlook such things.

[Nar123]

Tobirama had absolutely nothing to do with it besides his initial distrust of the Uchiha. He didn't segregate them, that happened after Obito attacked, which was under Hiruzens reign. Hiruzen and Danzo are the ones at fault, along with the Uchiha.

 

Again AHK?

 

 

Just look at what Orochimaru said, even if Tobirama didn't really wanted to isolate them, he ended up doing it 

 

just look

[Nar123]

Compared to Sasuke, Naruto had far more reason to hate, betray, and destroy Konoha than Sasuke ever did right from the get-go. It's only because, again because of Kishi's complete bias, we get far more (mish-mashed) details involving the Uchiha than we ever did or will with the Uzumaki Clan, coupled with Sasuke constantly made the MC and focus, that it makes it easy to overlook such things.

 

Basically this

The Uzumaki clan story was never truly exposed to us, it's a shame that such potential will probably remain untouchable

 

Kishi just screwed up majorly in the direction he chose to take this story

[rocci]

 
Basically this
The Uzumaki clan story was never truly exposed to us, it's a shame that such potential will probably remain untouchable
 
Kishi just screwed up majorly in the direction he chose to take this story

If this is the direction he take. He shouldn't make uzumaki an important clan.

[AHK]

Again AHK?
 

 
Just look at what Orochimaru said, even if Tobirama didn't really wanted to isolate them, he ended up doing it 
 
just look

Maybe you missed the part where he was clearly talking about the headquarters of the police being in the same building as as the prison, which was at the edge of town. That was not segregation. Orochimaru clearly stated as well that the situation arose from the "ones controlling crime becoming conceited".

Tobirama did not segregate them. That only happened after Obito attacked. The only thing that was at the outskirts of the village was the prison, then the headquarters.

[Nar123]

Maybe you missed the part where he was clearly talking about the headquarters of the police being in the same building as as the prison, which was at the edge of town. That was not segregation. Orochimaru clearly stated as well that the situation arose from the "ones controlling crime becoming conceited".

Tobirama did not segregate them. That only happened after Obito attacked. The only thing that was at the outskirts of the village was the prison, then the headquarters.

 

 

you forgot the part where Orochimaru says, that Tobirama suceeded in "bluntly chasing them away to the outskirts of the village" which also promoted the Madara sympathizers

 

you also forgot the "it was you who cornered the Uchiha, second" statement in the second panel

 

Stop with the selective reading , Tobirama is to blame too, even if he was not intending on spying on the uchiha his action of delegating them to the outskirts ended up spurning their pride thus giving start to the feelings of rebellion within the clan

 

If you don't remember before this the Uchiha were quite okay in Konoha, chosing to stay there instead of following Madara

 

You're debating for a lost cause AHK, Tobirama is at fault here too

Edited by Nar123, 12 July 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[AHK]

you forgot the part where Orochimaru says, that Tobirama suceeded in "bluntly chasing them away to the outskirts of the village" which also promoted the Madara sympathizers
 
you also forgot the "it was you who cornered the Uchiha, second" statement in the second panel
 
Stop with the selective reading , Tobirama is to blame too, even if he was not intending on spying on the uchiha his action of delegating them to the outskirts ended up spurning their pride thus giving start to the feelings of rebellion within the clan
 
If you don't remember before this the Uchiha were quite okay in Konoha, chosing to stay there instead of following Madara
 
You're debating for a lost cause AHK, Tobirama is at fault here too

Lol Tobirama isn't at fault, it's not selective reasoning, it's logic. Honestly, just think about it. Where else would he put a prison? Unless you're suggesting that the prison should be right in the middle of the village. And then, while you're at it, let some random citizens guard it. It's laughable.

Tobirama placed a prison away from the population for their general safety and created a police force to uphold, control, and enforce the law, which includes maintaining the prisons. The Uchiha were pissed because they got power, but it wasn't as much as they wanted. Tobirama didn't "delegate them to the outskirts", he made HQ of the police force in the same place as the prison. They worked in the outskirts because that's where their job was. The didn't get segregated until Obito attacked.

The only blame that you can place on Tobirama is when it comes to Madara himself. Any other blame is asinine and ridiculous. Let's blame Tobirama because he tried to help them by giving them something they'd be good at, which they turned out not to like because it wasn't enough control for them.

Absolutely ridiculous. It's like buying a child a chocolate chip cookie, only to have them say they don't want it because there isn't enough chocolate chips, and then blaming the person that bought it.

Edited by AHK, 12 July 2015 - 10:34 PM.

[BlackBird19]

That chapter was contrived to be the start of the Uchiha's absolution of blame. However in that same chapter we never hear of an edict that states the Uchiha have to live close to where they worked. We weren't told that they couldn't come into the village and be a part of the normal everyday village happenings. In fact they seemed to have isolated themselves quite honestly. Placing all their businesses and what not in their private section of the village. And it wasn't Tobirama's fault that when they were given the authority of the police force that they abused it and thought themselves better than others.

 

What we did learn in that chapter is that basically The Uchiha are a clan of yanderes. They love so much to the point of madness and violence. That was Tobirama's reasoning for not trusting them and was backed up by the past experiences of him and his brother seeing it first hand, which Hashirama also confirmed.

 

But I guess the main reason I didn't place much blame on Tobirama was that no one disputes that whatever he did was for the safety and betterment of the village. What the Uchiha were planning to do was simply out of pride and paranoia. So who honestly is to blame here? Anyway that's just the way I see it, whether you agree or disagree.

Edited by BlackBird19, 12 July 2015 - 11:20 PM.

[Nar123]

Lol Tobirama isn't at fault, it's not selective reasoning, it's logic. Honestly, just think about it. Where else would he put a prison? Unless you're suggesting that the prison should be right in the middle of the village. And then, while you're at it, let some random citizens guard it. It's laughable.

Tobirama placed a prison away from the population for their general safety and created a police force to uphold, control, and enforce the law, which includes maintaining the prisons. The Uchiha were pissed because they got power, but it wasn't as much as they wanted. Tobirama didn't "delegate them to the outskirts", he made HQ of the police force in the same place as the prison. They worked in the outskirts because that's where their job was. The didn't get segregated until Obito attacked.

The only blame that you can place on Tobirama is when it comes to Madara himself. Any other blame is asinine and ridiculous. Let's blame Tobirama because he tried to help them by giving them something they'd be good at, which they turned out not to like because it wasn't enough control for them.

Absolutely ridiculous. It's like buying a child a chocolate chip cookie, only to have them say they don't want it because there isn't enough chocolate chips, and then blaming the person that bought it.

 

 

Just stop, you're completely changing the fact to fit your own headcanon of the Uchihas being the only ones to blame

 

Not only Tobirama's reason for putting them at the police force is dubious in the first place ( You're just chosing to trust Tobirama's words over Obito's, the objective triuth was never revealed)  but by putting them there and basically isolating them from the rest of the village, he ended up segregrating them, this is a fact said in the story itself and that's why the Madara supporters gained power whithin the clan not because they wanted more power above the one from the police force...

 

This has nothing to do with logic or where the prision should stay, it has to do with relegating the Uchiha to the police and leaving them there, isolated, of course this would end up hurting the pride of the clan, so either way it remains that Tobirama's decision of putting them as the police was a badly thought and badly executed decision which sparked the rebellion within the clan, it could have happened differently though if Tobirama left his biuas behind him which he clearly didn't

 

 

As I have to say yet again before Tobirama's actions as a hokage, the Uchiha were perfectly fine even going against their leader in favour of the village

 

It's clear AHK that your irrational bias hurts your perception and that's a shame....look, I too, don't like the Uchiha and how much attention they got over the entire manga but that's not the reason to completely blame only them for a thing that ultimately didn't even started with them

 

Just think a little like this, there is the leader of a group, he doesn't like a person, so he gives this person something to do and divides him from the group, any prideful person would take an insult from the fact they are being trashed upon by their supposed leader and that they are not being given the respect and recognition they think they deserve

Tobirama's fail was basically like this, even if he ultimately didn't actively spy on them like Obito said ( which I doubt considering he was quite the paranoid) , he isolated them and gave start to the uprising of Madara's supporters, either way you llok everything began due to Tobirama's actions consequently one way or another he is at fault.

Edited by Nar123, 14 July 2015 - 01:34 AM.