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Riverkid

Member Since 01 Dec 2016
Offline Last Active Aug 06 2023 02:09 AM

#988368 The Great Naruto Discussion Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 14 January 2023 - 12:10 PM

 

I used to fundamentally hate this idea. But for some reason . . .after reading your explanation here and thinking about it, it would have undoubtedly been a great (not to mention gutsy) decision on Kishimoto's part and would have improved the story. As you know, the actual series cowered away from any instance of Naruto have to actually come to terms with the flaws in his ideals. All the villains simply succumb to the talk-no-jutsu (or were otherwise dispatched by outside forces) for this to actually ever be placed on the table. When confronted by Sasuke's multiple efforts to murder Sakura during the land of iron arc, what is Naruto's response? To simply sing kumbya and even preach nonsense about how both he and Sasuke would "die together" and "understand each other" in the afterlife. And Naruto justified this claptrap by claiming that if he couldn't even save one friend, he could not become hokage. Really? Last I checked, the 1st Hokage managed that just fine!!!

 

In terms of your idea, I LOVE the idea of Naruto leaving the village and believe that this should have happened right after the Pain arc. Take out the Land of Iron nonsense and instead have Naruto go on his own journey directly afterward (which would have been a result of having contemplated on his last conversation with Nagato and how he had intended to find a way to bring peace to the world). At this point, we get multiple mini arcs on the scale of the Zabuza arc with Naruto solving smaller scale problems while being exposed to the world without the lense of the leaf village limiting his worldviews. Because Sakura had basically been shafted since the Rescue Gaara arc, I think it would be appropriate to have her accompany Naruto initially. Just Naruto and Sakura since the series seldom gives them any solo time together. Throw some news friends and enemies in every now and then, but Naruto and Sakura remains the focus and both get some character development over the course of these mini-arcs (Naruto slowly matures and Sakura slowly begins realizing her feelings for Naruto; there could be one scene, albeit played up for laughs, that hint a tad of jealousy, towards the way Hinata protected Naruto from Pain). Naruto and Sakura mini-adventures last one year and they return to the leaf village only to see that it has become cold & despotic and ruled with an iron fist by Danzo. I won't get into too many details, but I think the series would ultimately end in another battle within the leaf village (i.e. no war arc), only Sasuke being the one to try to destroy it this time and Naruto finally coming to terms with what it will take to protect the village and bring about world peace.

 

I used to think that Naruto's POAL was the main obstacle in the way of this idea, but a good writer could use Naruto's failure to uphold this promise to their advantage. Believe it or not, aside from the stupidity of Sakura giving a fake confession to Naruto, I actually LIKED seeing Naruto and Sakura argue with each other afterwards. Not in the playful fashion we're accustomed to when Naruto does something stupid, but hashed out spirited debate. I think this alternate version of events would incorporate more of that when it came to the subject of Sasuke. I could see Sakura being the first to come to the conclusion that Sasuke might be beyond saving and Naruto and Sakura hashing it out over this. I could see Naruto and Sakura saying all kinds of HARSH things about one another and even splitting up temporarily. Ultimately, their division on the subject would be portrayed as a reflection of just how much each one loves the other (Naruto doesn't want to abandon his promise to Sakura and Sakura does not want to lose Naruto).

 

I feel like Naruto's ultimately takeaway from all of these events and even his failure to save Sasuke would be the method of bringing about world peace and ending the cycle of hatred boils down to one thing and one thing alone: The Future. The way to end the cycle of hatred is to ensure that the next generation does not succumb to it. Naruto's tenure as hokage would be focused on the leaf village's youth; he would erase the circumstances that allowed children to grow up become Sasuke, Obito, Orochimaru and Nagato. The next generation of ninja would be steered towards love and peace as opposed to hatred and isolation. There would be no better example of this than Naruto and Sakura's own children who they raise to the best of their efforts.

 

But yeah, the actual canon Naruto is a complete loser who is so inept that he can't even solve the problem of juggling multiple responsibilities even though he can literally appear in 1000 different places at once for extended periods of time.

I would have changed the Pain-Arc completely. I've already talked this up and down, but the meeting between Sasuke and Akatsuki was terrible. If we follow the plot that Obito managed to convince Sasuke to spark a hatred against Konoha, the events afterward make zero sense. Sasuke was persuaded to join Akatsuki as a party, because both parties have the same goal - the destruction of Konoha - but is then excluded from said goal. Sasuke had no benefits at all in this whole interaction. Why does he leave the act of revenge, which he is seeking, on Akatsuki to deal with KilleBee instead? But well, I don't have to pretend that I don't understand the intention of Kishimoto. It would have been impossible to justify further the relationship between Naruto and Sasuke in the constellation as it is, if Sasuke attacked the village and its people for real.

But that's what should have happened. Not Pain, but Sasuke attacking Konoha. Pain would have taken care of KillerBee, at which point the Raikage then proclaims a world emergency to end the affair with Akatsuki once and for all - as it also happened in the plot, only that you bypass the obsolete plot with Sasuke-Mising-Nin which has been irrelevant in retrospect. And meanwhile, we have Sasuke, who then attacks Konoha. In this event, you got countless interactions between Sasuke and his former comrades and friends. Some would try to stop him without killing him, like Sakura and Kakashi, who share a special bond. Others might intend to kill him but are inferior to him. You would have the Batman-Joker dilemma that someone unstoppable can't be stopped unless you kill him. Naruto then appears late at Konoha's gates and sees Sasuke's path of destruction. Houses in flames, bodies on the ground, the streets filled with screams and fear - perhaps even the death of Teuchi (Ayame then takes over the shop). Naruto finally acknowledges a fatal realization: Sasuke is too far gone, and his only rescue is death. They meet at last, eyes met, and without exchanging words, a long bitter fight ends with Naruto doing the killing blow. That would have been the most critical point in the whole story. This would not be a friend killed in battle, as was the case with Neji or Asuma, but the death of a friend by the world into which he was born. A young boy, still haunted by his past and exploited by antagonists who have brought him more despair. This would be the biggest fire inside Naruto to pursue Jiraiya's dream. A world where this would never happen again. The death of Sasuke will serve as an exemplary symbolic figure for him and something that will forever haunt him on the path to finding true peace.

You have saved the plot by that. Obito (Akatsuki) is further antagonized because he gives Sasuke the final push over the cliff. Pain can be further held as the final antagonist - the same motivations as Naruto, but with different goals and approaches, collide to a climax at the end, deciding who found the solution to save this corrupted world.

This leads to a trembling relationship between Sakura and Naruto, who still doesn't quite understand why Naruto had to kill him - when he was the one who risked everything to save him. A mix of disappointment, helplessness, anger, and hatred would then arise in their relationship. Until the dust settles and Sakura realizes how many victims have been created by the hand of Sasuke. She realizes at the mass funerals how a young boy who has lost his parents suddenly carries the same hatred and anger in his eyes as Sasuke once did. She gets the whole picture, the depth of the entire tragedy, and why Naruto had to kill him.

On the other hand, you have Kakashi losing another one close to him. He lost Obito and Rin to senseless wars that he never understood and has now lost his student for whom he was responsible. He and Sakura would be the first to know why Naruto had to do it, beyond the fact that the village had to be saved. They might also get the motivation to follow Jiraiya's dream and support Naruto on his upcoming path.

With Naruto, you would have a different case. The triumphant hero who doesn't feel like celebrating. The smiling faces and celebrations are cheering the death of Sasuke and, thus, the salvation of Konoha. The hateful words and insults Naruto endure toward his deceased friend. A nagging feeling that the people cheering him were the very people who despised and rejected him back then. The thought occurs to him whether he would have suffered the same fate if he had taken the same path back then - that the cutting edge between hero and villain, him and Sasuke, is so thin. That would be the moment when he should not care about the Hokage title and distance himself from what has always been his home. Konoha would be just one puzzle of many that needed change, and he longs to go out into the world to find the answer.




#988339 The Great Naruto Discussion Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 09 January 2023 - 10:23 AM

Another problem with this series is Naruto's transition to being hokage; there is none. At no point does Naruto ever get presented in any leadership capacity prior to donning the white coat. All we know about him is that he has a bigger number than the other ninjas due to fox magic. Much of the 1st timeskip should have revolved around Naruto being put in leadership positions and slowly developing into someone who the reader feels is ready to promote to hokage.

Hell, part of the reason Sakura apprenticing for Tsunade works so well is because it gave her ample opportunity to assist to hokage. Imagine an ending where she puts these skills to good use and is handling the managerial/organizational side of the job for Naruto while keeping him in line!

What has been mentioned several times: Naruto should have killed Sasuke at the end. Ignoring the narrative decision that Sasuke needed to live to break off the global Genjutsu, it would have been the most crucial focal point for naruto to start his natural character arc, and that shouldn't have been him becoming Hokage. Even tho that has been build up for many years.

Up to this point, he always followed what he was given and what was expected. To follow his father's footsteps, protect his friends, forgive enemies and fork new allies and be the hero of his village. Some of his decisions may have been stubborn, but he never made a decision that others wouldn't get behind. He always put others before himself because thats what the idea of being a Hokage is about - or rather, has been constantly told. Didn't Minato, Hiruzen, or Tsunade reign precisely that way? And yet the cycle of hatred still prevailed during their time. Shouldn't Jiraiya have made the turning point for Naruto to become more than just a Kage of a village? To become someone who can achieve what none other achieved before? True peace. The goal might be foolish, but it's not the destination that matters - it is not a switch; it's a path, a way - being the inspiration and guidance for others to follow. You can only lead the way if you can take on hard decisions. When Sakura couldn't bring herself to kill Sasuke, Naruto should have done it with pure determination. As a child, he chased Sasuke with narrow eyes, emotional and naive. But with age, the fog and mist around him should have revealed the true path he must follow. Finally, bringing the chase to a halt and realizing that your long-lost friend is standing in your way. The burden of having to make a fatal decision that changes your destiny forever.

And it should have been Naruto who leaves the village and takes on a journey to explore the world that needs to be fixed — meeting all different people, going to places that are hidden and unexplored, tumbling over new friends and enemies, getting a sense of the social opinion and political positions, being the first to understand the world before deciding on its solution, and having to deal with his past decision of killing a friend and resolving himself around it.

But our great Kishimoto was presented with the trolley-problem and he just created a rail in the middle to bypass any consequences. Showcasing zero balls to challenge a more mature approach to his plot. We are left with Naruto as the kage of a village, sitting in his chair and doing paperwork. In contrast, he does nothing different than the previous kage before him. And Jiraiya actually put all his hope in Naruto.




#988331 The Great Naruto Discussion Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 08 January 2023 - 11:47 AM

Yo, what kind of poll am I witnessing right now? Who came up with this marketing idea of introducing a potential spin-off manga? Like, what is going on?

Am I seeing this right? Are you actually telling me that the top ten voted characters are from Konoha? Wow, what an enrichment! What still needs to be said about Konoha and its people? Imagine following Minato and how he interacts with other characters that have been mentioned and shown over 100 times. In an environment that has been established and fleshed out over 100 times. As cool as Minato is, choosing anyone from Konoha would make a terrible decision for a spin-off manga. It is already a complete disaster that we still have to stick to Konoha with the Boruto-Series, but again in a spin-off? Give it a goddamn rest. You have the foundation of the whole world with multiple nations, dozens of cities, and hundreds of different clans - how about expanding that world by showcasing other people, environments, cultures, and ways of life? Even years after the original series ended, they still neglect so much potential and expansion. How they treat this franchise is a goddam crime.

But yea, let's still milk out the fanbase. Let the fans vote for their favorite character so that we can create content around the said character. What a tremendous business-oriented mindset. Who cares for quality when you can achieve peak engagement to revive a sales boom because you can't stop milking this franchise of a dump enough?

Imagine rushing out the original series and forcing it to an unsatisfying end, so we have to witness this series of trash follow-ups. Kishimoto had to end the original series. He couldn't have passed it over to a different author who may still have time and motivation to wrap this story to a satisfying end. No, he had to end this so that we were left with an unpleasant feeling in our mouths, ultimately killing our appetite before his successors try to spoonfeed us with this junk again.

Imagine voting for Sakura and trusting them to write a good female protagonist.




#981158 The Great Naruto Discussion Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 14 October 2020 - 08:11 PM

 

Very wise words for sure, man. And some of it really just feels so weird to have it occur now and then, like how Obito's words to Sasuke about Itachi just instantly make him want to shift the source of his anger to the Leaf, while in the same case, being about his jealousy towards Itachi and how he could never surpass him, so he's going to destroy what Itachi cared about just to make himself feel better, like so much of Sasuke's motivation seemed to be when he went to Orochimaru-- the jealousy and hate he felt for his brother's successes, while using the massacre partially as an excuse to masquerade the real agenda for it.

 

 

We have the following scenario:
 
Obito has successfully manipulated Sasuke and brought him into the ranks of Akatsuki, based on the fact that he managed to put him against Konoha - to share a common goal. After all, this common goal is the main reason why Sasuke gets himself involved with Akatasuki in the first place.
 
In Chapter 404 Obito announces that Akatsuki will take care of Naruto (Pain vs. Konoha) while Sasuke (Taka) will hunt Killerbee. But this raises the question why Sasuke should deal with Killerbee in the first place. He joins Akatsuki because of a common goal (Konoha), which he won't even participate in in the end. Pain is actually the one dealing the damage to Konoha that Sasuke actually longed for himself.
 
This confusing constellation is justified by the act of Obito who offers the 8-tailed-beast to Sasuke - that would give him more strength (reasonable), which he however simply rejects in Chapter 417. So he managed to deal with something that is not even in his interest from begin with and he doesn't want anything in return to compensate for the wasted time, effort and risk. To top this insanity, Sasuke announce his seperation from Akatsuki in Chapter 453 because he can't seem to get any advantage out of it (bright spark).
 
We have an illogical sequence of actions which simply plays against all rules of the respective character motivation. It makes no sense from front to back. The only thing that becomes obvious here is to project Sasuke not as a rival but as an antagonist in the story (building up for the dramatic end-run). His unnecessary hunt on Killerbee triggered the Kage summit and the decleration of him as a missing-nin. Not sure why the summit not already happened after Jiraiya's death - but who knows, maybe it was fine because it wasn't Sasukes fault yet to drive the plot further ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
 
And many readers don't even realize this problem. It is simply taken for granted and sometimes even praised.



#981151 The Great Naruto Discussion Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 14 October 2020 - 03:10 PM

You know as much as we all say that the ending can't get fixed and how Kishi and SP and the Hinata fans destroyed Naruto because they all wanted Hinata to get her happy ending. My friend and I were talking today on how or what would happen if Kishi came to our house and told us we could fix Naruto in any way we saw fit, but we knew that we wanted to challenge ourselves and not just have a rewrite of Naruto as that would be too easy.

 

So what we did is set it just after either the Pain arc or when Naruto has just met his mother.

 

To be honest, I would have reworked the whole Shippuden part from scratch.
 
In my opinion, the core problem is the persistent Shonen genre. Naruto (Manga) ran between 1999 and 2014, which means it has a time span of 15 years. Someone who started the manga at the age of 12 years would be at the age of 27 years at the end. So while one's own perspective develops over the years, the series remains constant in its demands and narrative depth. This leads to a descending view the further one has progressed in age. The focus on a younger audience is also reflected in the superficial principles the story is based on (good > evil, reason > violence, friendship > power etc.), especially when these principles are worked out again and again and again. It's the same themes that have stood on a pedestal for 15 years, preventing any potential alternatives - which might have given more depth and ground to the story.
 
During the timeskip Naruto really leaves Konoha for the first time. He leaves an environment of prejudice and aversion, and in theory he should now experiences an atmosphere where people see him for what he really is, just a growing child. Being in new surroundings should have a positive effect, because his background story (unknown to strangers) would no longer be an obstacle. You could highlight the psyche of Naruto more, where he is perhaps preoccupied with the question of wanting to return to Konoha (bad environment) at all - which is then also in confrontation with his goal of becoming Hokoage. One gives, especially to the protagonist, such an unnatural childhood, distorted by the normal form, but does not dare to work more precisely with this point of view. It is only used to create a compassion that has little relevance in the present as long as it is not about the Kyubi himself. The Author really doesn't dare to go into the details here in order to create completely new depths for the character, which might have kept him away from the one-dimensionality which we have in the end.
 
The general global world-setting is also not highlighted enough. There are so many nations, the possibility to conceive many different cultures and norms. Apparently it is better to draw a generic global antagonist (group or single persons) and take away any relevance of the outside as long as Konoha is somehow involved. There have been so many stories about past-wars, but what impact did they have? Who is enemy and ally? What is the role of politics or society? These are all important core issues that a leader has to deal with and take responsibility for - so why is Naruto's Hokage position based only on his strength and willpower? Should a position, so highly narrated by the story, be shaped by such few characteristics? The fact that Naruto became Hokage was less a meaningful cumulation of constant development and more a bleak act of defining a conclusion to the story. Atleast we were constantly reminded that he wants to become Hokage one day. In addition to this, there was this one question that Naruto should have answered - how he wants to stop the cycle of hatred - but he was busy chasing Sasuke. The author reduces everything here to banal points, konoha is the solely important object of the story and everything is answered when Naruto finally wins Sasuke back - because only then every question and every existing problem is supposedly solved.
 
The plot is also too much based on spontaneous and sporadic events. You never have the feeling that something builds up over longer stretches, everything is driven by flashbacks or resolutions. Sasuke has now killed Itachi? Tell him a story so that he will now attack Konoha. Pain was defeated, what now? Just let Sasuke attack Killerbee to push for a Kage summit. The story of the Uchiha has been retold three or four times, I think, just to steer Sasuke from left to right and right to left again. You can really skip 200 chapters without feeling like you're missing anything - since most of it is based on recent events anyway. The author simply lacks a narrative plan that is forward-looking and constructive. 

 

You cannot fix the story from a certain point on. The general concept and preparation are simply too inferior for a needed foundation to work with. From Shippuden on, the level should have been raised and an exact basic plan for the story should have been worked out. 




#981053 The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 09 October 2020 - 09:16 PM

What's really infuriating about this fanbase is that those who attempt to argue for the legitimacy of NH have no real stance.

 

This simply shows how people receive a story.
 
It's less about the argumentation and the points of view, but why one takes this position in the first place. The arguments, whether they are right or wrong, are only the by-product of their own conclusion to take a certain position. If you stand up for something, you will argue for it - exaggeratedly or reasonably.
 
Where the core motivation to support Naruto and Hinata comes is more interesting than dealing with the arguments about them itself.
 
The good thing is that the search for the answer does not take that long, because there were just short, sporadic - but concise - events between Naruto and Hinata. Her confession in a dramatic situation with Pain and their cohension in the tragic case of Neji stand out the most here. There are many more events, but most of them are only characterized by Hinata's one-sided admiration towards Naruto. Of course, on the mentioned points, one can open the case for a possible romantic relationship between the two of them - if the romantic relation was a single-usecase in the story.
 
There are no alternatives from Hinata's point of view. This lies in the nature of the character - to have only eyes for Naruto. In addition, Hinata herself is not an unlikable character and people who are very sympathetic to her character commit themselves to her attentions aswell.
 
It is a bit more difficult from Naruto's point of view, because there are several variables involved. There are alternatives and the audience has to weigh them up for themself. The real problem becomes clear in this case. Of course, one can go into more detail and interpret and evaluate every spoken word and every action, however It becomes clear how many people take the sporadic events with Hinata more strongly, where the author also emphasized them psychologically in the process, than the constant and long lasting relationship with Sakura. The relationship with Sakura is not directly triggered, it is a slow building relationship with dynamic states. The relationship with Hinata is only characterized by events that trigger the psychological approach - which i will be mention below.
 
For this reason TV-Shows are often strongly criticized. The plot and the subject is usually in the background, because it is preferred to play around with interpersonal constellations to hit some emotional nerves from the audience. Oh, this is a post-apocalypse? Medieval Setting? a trip to an unknown planet? - Let's build in a triangular relationship with jealousy and unwanted pregnancy. How about we add an amazing backstory to person A that turns the tide. We are about to rob a bank? Anyway, we have to settle unresolved arguments from the past here and now!
 
The main thing is that the viewer is constantly confronted with drama in order to take a psychological position, which is actually completely irrelevant in the respective scenario and world setting. Many people like to be driven by such things, which is why many people like to watch such things in the end. It also leads to the misleading prediction that complex stories are profound and contain quality - whereby the complexity here is simply reflected in the fact that most people want to be emotionally touched in several facets. They see the event of Hinata risking her life and confessing her love - and it trumps 400 episodes of long-term development between Naruto and Sakura. The bad thing is that the author is also actively involved in making this happen, not only with Hinata - but in general.
 
Hinata could have been used to developed the setting in so many ways in relation to the Hyugas, but instead she is only used as a psychological tool, which works in a simple and naïve way on most people - as if a growing person is fed by someone else's hand (in this case by the author) and can't resolve the natural process of the story on his own.
 
The natural process that the author deliberately breaks for his naïve methods and to push for his desired outcomes.
 
EDIT: Wording / Additions



#976715 The Great Naruto Discussion Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 03 January 2020 - 08:10 PM

It's not just Naruto.
Over the last few years, we've seen more and more bad scripts in cinemas and TV shows.
 
TV shows have gained the upper hand in recent years. Titles like "The Sopranos", "Breaking Bad", "The Walking Dead" (earlier seasons), "Westworld", "Mr. Robot" etc. show more and more how to experience a story and not just watching it passively. Nevertheless you can still find a wide range of garbage on Netflix or Amazon.
 
I recently went to see the movie "Star Wars" with friends and found a lot of similarities to Naruto.
 
Many retcons, forced emotions, unprepared twists, boring and repetitive dialogues. Everything is thrown at the protagonists feet to make the fight against the antagonist easy. Logic and meaning are cannibalized by values like "force", "hope" and "friendship", which in an exaggerated way get a pedestal in every imaginable scene.
 
It is always this "safe way" that most scripts follow to appeal to the largest audience. Just so that every character gets at least one scene and is there until the end. Just so that it looks cinematically great at the end. Just so that the opinions, views and expectations of many are met.
 
In most cases it's not about how to write a good script but how to reach the masses and entertain them in the easiest way.
Thats why i also hate the Avenger-Movies. Everything is only carried by the CGI and the Score. How Game of Thrones was mostly carried by the film Score last season. Just like most of the music songs today with all the good beats, which the artists don't even produce themselves, covering their bad and boring lyrics. It doesn't matter as long as people watch and listen to it.
 
Naruto is just one of those examples. You've never experienced the relationship between Naruto and Hinata, it was always just thrown right in front of your face. You just watched it. There aren't countless dialogues where you might have to read between the lines to find hidden feelings. Everything has been revealed since the beginning and nothing has been explored. Don't want to start with the other hundred things that "Naruto", like "Star Wars", did badly.
 
That's how I see most movies and series these days, it's just all openly bluntly provided and you don't enjoy the little details that make for the quality. It's kinda sad that most people don't care for stuff like that. They are happy enough when their favourite game (e.g. The Witcher) is getting a TV-Show on Netflix. Happy enough to ignore all the flaws and bad writing, to the point where they even give 10-Star ratings with the comment "I give it a 10/10 against those people who criticize my favourite show". People who try to argue with "Art is in the eye of the beholder" are the ones who don't understand art.



#969497 The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 29 November 2018 - 09:27 PM

Oh  the American fan base WASN'T a factor, actually. The More I think about it, the American fan base or any pro NH fan in general was actually just a means to an end. Kishimoto was not convinced to change Hinata to being "THE heroine", BUT MANY male members of the Naruto anime team and and ALMOST ALL OF of his post- Yahagi editors want their self insert Naruto Uzumaki to boink the precious, shy, big kittens, innocent and pure girl Hinata Hyuga that was always "into him", so they gathered the opinions of like-minded masses as "evidence and data". 

Its actually hilarious. 

"Kishimoto stated that many who work with him have told him Hinata is more of a heroine than Sakura"- 2010, interview.

I'm really curious about how they define a 'hero'. Having pity for naruto, but never doing anything all the years is apparently a heroic act. 

Hiding behind a corner and watching Narutos back ? she must be a hero! 
Looking back with concern how Naruto gets beaten after he saved her from bullies ? she must be a hero!
Doing nothing to fix her clan-issues because her whole life-focus is on Naruto ? she must be a hero!

Apparently im also a hero because i feel sad/angry for all the animal-abuse, even tho i don't do anything about it.
But lets not forget her big moment during the pain-arc to showcase that she is really meant to be the heroine.. it was just a 400 chapter build-up of doing nothing and absolut nothing. 

Sakura risked her life many times chasing Sasuke, i mean... its stupid, ye! However thats way more productive than what hinata was doing in the meantime. Not to mention her other encounters with akatsuki, or her trying to protect Sasuke and Naruto in the chunin-exam. Sadly sadly she wasn't as passive as hinata.. because thats what a 'hero' is about apparently. 

Kishimoto stated in subsequent interviews that he had been building up Hinata to become part of the main cast ever since the 4th Shinobi War started

 

the 400 chapters of build-up wasn't enough.. it had to be 500-600 chapters. Lets just choose one character who did 1 usefull thing in the entire show.. and that character deserves to be on the main cast. Thats how character-development works.




#969033 The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 24 October 2018 - 10:38 PM

Maybe Naruto could have spoken to Nagato if there had been real trials and tribulations that separated him from the group in the manga. Like if his happy smile really hid a dark-Sasuke-like interior, where he was seriously in trouble of falling into that dark role. But...at no point is he ever in danger of becoming like Sasuke. Sure he says he understands him, but how can he really? At no point in the manga was he like Sasuke and going to leave, throw over his whole life for some personal goal.

Exactly. You can understand Naruto to a certain degree. He was a child who just didn't know why he was hated and ignored, and he came to the conclusion that he needs to 'do something' for it. So thats why he did these pranks, and wore flashy clothes to attract attention. That wasn't/shouldn't be his personality, just a pro-active behaviour to gain something he wants. After he got told the true secret to why they ignore him, there is litteraly no need to continue his acting. Because he should realize by now that its pointless. No pranks or loud-mouth-talking will distract anyone from the fact that he bears the 9-tail. 

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Thats him, one chapter after being told the secret.. just continuing his pranks infront of the Hokoage (who MAYBE ist the perfect person to ask about every question he 'SHOULD' have). There is no curiosity, no desire, no innocenct reflection. They never told him anything, not about his parents, not about their attitude towards him, why he has to live alone.. and mostly about his fate. That place should be 'hell' for him, and he should been gone years before sasuke even considered to leave. As a Protagonist you have to deal with the fact that the audience is trying to empathize with you, and you are not doing a good work if you ignore the questions and the situation around you.

 

So yeah, how can he relate to Nagato, Konan, Obito, Sasuke or anyone else...and then be expected to change the ninja world as the chosen one? He's 16 with very limited life experiences.

 

Yea, he shouldn't be able to do it. Just because someone struggled in his life, doesn't mean he knows how to deal with it or give advice to others. Naruto did nothing about his problems, besides doing pranks or being a loud-brat he never really tried to take care of his situation.. he just accepted it and the author managed it for him to have a successfull storyline. His development isn't working around his narrative timeline. 

 

That might have been different if he'd taken a closer look at the situations around him and people who were supposed to care for him in Konoha. If he'd questioned or even seriously rebelled, outside of some juvenile graffiti.

It wouldn't be just a different character then, it would be a different story overall. 

 

Its kinda funny how he praises friendship over everything, and tries to chase a guy who doesn't seek his friendship... but on the other hand he takes the people who a real friends to him at risk for this said guy. He doesn't even think about consequences. What if Sakura really managed to die because of sasuke ? There was a fanfic i recently read, where sakura becomes blind because of sasuke for the rest of her life, it was a good story, but i cringed so damn much about the phrase "i think i can't hate Sasuke". Its just the same as in the canon-plot. Sasuke could have killed Jiraiya, and naruto wouldn't change his mind. I mean Obito, who was the source of his fate and the death of his parents, manages to befriend with Naruto.. i dont know... there is just zero grasp of Narutos mind, its impossible for the audience to understand this character at all... unless you are as ignorant his him. 

But its not only him, it everyone around him. 

WriFe0d.png

 

Over and Over again they fail to chase him or bring him back, and no one (not even the hokage, who should stop him) is doing anything. Jiraiya mentioned about his seal weakening [Tsunade: "go and catch sasuke if u want :-)"], Sakura who nearly died because of Sasuke ["he is our friend! i need to support naruto on this way!"]. 


yKE2xMD.png

 

This is exactly the moment where i started to hate this character, where i was like "**CK YOU Naruto!". The same thing could have happened to Sakura, Yamato, Sai, Neji, Shikamaru, Choji if it wasn't for (cough* Author cough*) lucky outcomes after your whole damn Sasuke-chase. Atleast Jiraiya tried to take care of  Akatsuki, atleast Asuma tried to stop Akatsuki taking more and more Jinchurikies while you were busy RISKING your friends by chasing Sasuke who was 000000 threat to Konoha at that point. 

 

But he never does. And yeah, he chasing Sasuke (at the peril of everyone he knows) to force him to come home to a place Sasuke should rightfully hate is veeerrrry different than Naruto have a parallel life experience then understanding him because he lived through his own hell. But by the time the manga starts, we are told to believe that the worst part of Naruto's life is behind him in his childhood. But this is always that part he draws on when he tries to relate to every other bad guy in the series! wtf?

Its just kishimotos logic: Naruto can't hate the bad guy, he can't kill the bad guy, in fact.. he will manage to relate and be a mature response for all big problems because he is Naruto with the sad past. 

 

 




#969003 The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 22 October 2018 - 07:05 PM

Yep - right there with ya. Though in the manga, Part One Naruto and company were great for getting people acquainted with the village and the rules of their world, they quickly seem to young to be fighting people to the death. If Naruto's out of the village for his upbringing, I don't think he should return until he's more mature. 18 or older. That way he sidesteps all the youthful hijinks and has to relate to the Leaf nins when the stakes are so much higher. And having him come back also goes around the problem of why the village treated him so badly and how he could possibly love it as much as he did. It just becomes a non issue. And the whole tone of the story levels up. The rivalries become more pointed, the love interests become more real, the losses become much greater, etc. 

I can only aprove your point. They are not living in the wild, where a killing-survival-mentality would be beneficial, even in such a young age (like Naruto in your Fanfic: a voice in the wind). They are living a safe place, trying to become shinobis. To be a shinobi you need a right mindset, so you are able to execute orders/task in a strong point of view. A 12 year old, or even a 16 year old, human shouldn't be near having the developed experience to understand his responsilbities at the full extent and 'how' the best execution, given the task, should be handled.

The first Problem is having a 16 year old guy as your 'hero'. He is 16! how can a 16 year old guy be able to carry the world ? How can a 16 year old guy discuss a mature topic with Nagato who was like 35 year old and even convince him ? A 20-25 old guy could 'maybe' perform something like that, but not 16. Just compare to it to Kakashi who already carried a war in his experience-list, and still had much less influence than his student before any of them turned 18. 

The second Problem is what you mentioned. just a non-issue. he acts like konoha is his big family, ignoring the fact what they did to him. he acts like that chasing sasuke is a zero-threat, ignoring the fact how many of his friends (including sakura) died nearly because of that. Even when they praised him as a hero, there were 0 thoughts of him questioning the double-faced villagers who now seek to him for protection because he got stronger. He just accept it, plain and static.




#968964 The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 20 October 2018 - 03:09 PM

/\Really like the idea of Naruto seeing/meeting his father for the first time on the battlefield. I don't remember seeing it anywhere, in fanfic or anything, before.Definitely sets up some good scenarios and interactions.

Sadly im not a writer, otherwise there would be a fanfic with that scenario.

I would start my Story around the time where Naruto is 18 years old and is heading back to Konoha for the first time, after Jiraiya took him out of the village to a better/hidden place, providing him a healthy/safe development regarding his status as a jinchuriki (i dislike the idea of Naruto being kept in the village after the destruction of the tailed beast, it just builds up tension from the villagers - and i think Jiraiya is the best Person to do that -> he knows his father, he is one of the strongest shinobis who can protect him and knows stuff about seals/jinchurikis). The reason of him heading back is because of the deal he made with Jiraiya, that he hast to go back if Jiraiya has fallen in the battle or manages to dies. (he can't walk around alone with the treath of akatsuki out there, and the gap of 18 years should have calmed the villagers a bit down) he would arrive in Konoha, basically as a stranger.. maybe due to the fact that only the 3rd Hokage knew the location of them, and after tsunade took over they both were suspected to be missed/dead. Slowly and surely he would try to integrate himself in the village, and meet the other konoha-nins for the first time. While he build up new relationships to give himself a new purpose in life after the death of jiraiya, some people slowy suspect him to be the lost jinchuriki which will open up old scars. ... and so on... 

 




#968949 The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 19 October 2018 - 09:31 PM

*Person* So what can you tell me about the Uchiha Clan?

*Kishi spends 6 hours explaining every minute detail*
 

I can understand the intention here to a certain extend. You got some important characters (Madara, Itachi, Obito, Sasuke) with each of them having a big role in the story. So trying to cover up their background-story + including the needed details about their special sharingan = requiers a large spectrum of narrative information. The problem is that kishimoto felt the need to extend/fill these informations with more and more unnecessary content. Many of them don't even make sense.

For example:

You got the tension between the Uchiha-Clan and the rest of Konoha. It was so much boiled up that the elders feared a upcoming civil-war. The rumor that the Nine-tailed attack was planned by an uchiha (it was known that uchihas can gain the ability to control the beasts) was also adding more pressure to that tension. The Uchiha-clan received almost no sympathy (few exceptions like the 3rd Hokage). So i dont understand the love/praise for sasuke, since he was the brother of the guy who did the massacre. 

How can they say "Get away from that demon-brat, he can kill us all one day", but they dont come to the conlusion "Throw that Red-Eye out, he will follow the footstep of his brother and repeat the massacre in konoha.. the Uchihas are crazy"

 

Sasuke being the 'prodigy' doesnt make sense either since he was always in the shadow of his brother who achieved much more at his age. Its like "sad, the talented Uchiha-Guy isn't around anymore... wait.. he got a brother! he must be a prodigy too then!!"

 

The are logical errors in the way kishimoto tried to combine his pieces regarding the uchiha-clan.

But hey, Kishimoto would likely say "He got much praise and attention because they felt pity for him after the massacre" (sitting next to him: Naruto, in disbelief).

 

Yeah, I liked that revelation about Naruto being the 4th's son because Kushina and Minato were great. The only problem I had with it was that it felt like an insert later on because the way people treated him at first. Despite being an orphan and having the nine-tailed fox, you think him being the son of the 4th would have had people treating him differently that how it was depicted early on. Also, the whole nine-tails thing seemed of little importance to the village even though didn't it show that other holders were treated in much higher regard in their villages? I don't know. I think Kishi played a hand for coming up with some of these big ideas later on when they should have been established earlier.

 

I agree with the fact that having Naruto as the son of the 4th Hokage/Kushina is a nice and great thing, i'm not a fan of the revelation though. it was so unstatisfying to see the revelation. There will never be a time, where i think that reviving a dead-character for a short amount of time is a good thing. You take away so much of the effect. 

You never saw Minato. You only had a glimpse of him from stories, told by some villagers/elders. He was known to be a killer, a century-talent, a hero who could stand 1-on-1 against the strongest tailed-beast and a guy so strong that all the enemies wanted his head to roll down. You can make up your own impression of him. Personally for me i thought of him as a bad-ass guy with serious priorities as a hokage. And then you 

 

 

see him in the next panel "Hey Naruto, im your father" with a soft-hearted pesonality. It just destroyed my impression and i was left with disappointment.

Also Afterwards, Narutos reaction infront of Kakashi ??? I mean standing infront of him was porpably the last person alive who knew the most about his father.. and he didn't ask a single damn thing.

"How was my Father?"

- Kishimoto: "I think that doesn't sound like a logical question to ask"

"Did u know my mother too? what was her name?"

- Kishimoto: "Should Naruto know at this point that he came out of a Woman, called "mother"?"

 

----[Start of the Conversation about Narutos Father]----
Kakashi: "What did your father say?"
Naruto: "That he is proud of me!"

----[End of the Conversation about Narutos Father]----

- Kishimoto: "Perfect! im such a masterpiece author"

My ideal vision back in the days was having Naruto fighting in some kind of war-scenario, taking out enemies who got revived by edo-tensei until he faces the 4th Hokage who looks similiar too him. Naruto facing his father for the first time, on the battlefield as a opponent. He doesnt even have to know beforehand that the dead-man before him was his father, just the similarity should alrdy point it out, forcing him to feel uncertain through the fight against him. And afterwards confronting kakashi with the question "was the 4th Hokage my father?" with a dead-serious expression. Imagine the tension as a viewer if you see the 4th Hokage for the same time, and he just looks like to be the father.. and he has to fight him right now. that kitten would have gotten me hyped up.

 

Of course with the fact that revived people shouldn't have any soul left or being able to talk.
 

 

I keep thinking that the problem isn't fully about Naruto being Minato and Kushina's son or being a Jinchuriki, considering that he still for a while had to work hard to be able to do some things, it was just how it was handled, since the concepts are solid, it just was done by piss-poor writing, just like nothing done with the Senju and Uzumaki clans or some of the others. And that also takes me to some relevance to my fanfic and what I was thinking.

I agree with many of your following points, and i also really do like your ideas and thoughts-process behind your concepts to fix issues. But i think the issue wasn't "doing them in a poor way" but more "having them taking such a big role in the first place".

Thats mainly because im not really interested in the clan-stories, and i think they shouldn't take such a big role in the plot. 

 

It doesnt matter how much u try to fix these background-stories, it still leads to the same problem: Konoha got all the important history-interfaces and the other villages are meaningless. The source of every big event lies in konoha. they have the strongest shinobis, the strongest clans, they got the re-incarnation of X and Y. they got everything.

There are other villages, there are other clans and other characters lack so much depth, and primary because Kishimoto focused to much on konoha, specific clans (uchiha) and the history. I wanted to see Naruto growing up from Zero to Hero, in a World filled with interesting and detailed characters/places/styles/villages etc. i dont want to go through 30%-Screen-Time-History-Class in the last Arcs on how interesting the build-up of konoha and their clans was. 

i would welcome more details on other parts of the story, rather than having a fixed history/clan background. 

because you don't need it.

Naruto doesn't need a big chakra pool. I dont want to see him making 1000 clones who fight like fresh-up genins without any use of brain, or him throwing flashy jutsus just to miss 80% of them. 4-5 clones with a smart-use is enough (like in Part-1). I mean Sasuke has the same chakra-pool as him, litteraly. There was never a hint of Sasuke having less chakra than Naruto.. he could always keep up with him without a tailed beast or being a uzumaki-member.

Hyuga-Clan doesnt need such a OP-eyepower. they can just have their own martial-art style with the focus to hit the choke-points of the human body and a good chakra-control to force all their power into their hands. 

The uchihas can also just have their own style of training where they read the body-language to read enemy movements and react/counter them in addition having fire/lighting style jutsus. 

Etc. etc.

all in all u still have unique clans without digging so DEEP in the history to explain their source. And you can have this cute love-story between Naruto and Sakura, both having 0 Clan-Bonus and just trying to achieve their goals just with amibition and hard work. 

EDIT:

 

but thats only my preferred view of course, everyone got their own preferences and ideas on how to improve the story




#968653 The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 01 October 2018 - 11:28 PM

I agree. An alternate ending isn't good enough. The current canon isn't the reality of Naruto that deserves to grow and evolve. Not that Boruto will ever do any such thing, but still.

Naruto(the Story) is like this upcomming child you are happily waiting for as a parent just to fail the whole parenthood because you have zero clue how to raise that child. So this child arrives into a serious world and its raised in a fairytale-nonsense where he believes that moral-beats-everything and chasing-a-friend-to-the-death are the way to go. And you as a outsider just feel pity for this kid because you know he will never make it far in life. 

If there was ever a chance of a reboot, then it needs to be done in a 'seinen'-genre. You can't provide a Story with Villains such as Madara, Obito, Orochimaru and Pain (who would perfectly fit in that genre) with serious ambitions and cold-cruel actions in combination with Protagonist who would fit more in a classical disneymovie. Its not like in One Piece where u have these perfectly fine interesting-styled arc-villains without much backgroud-stories who actually fit in a shonen-genre.

Get rid of Hinata as a Character... because she is kinda useless for the story? and she doesn't have a well-founded purpose in the Story (other than having a tunnelvision on Naruto). Its the same Problem in Attack-on-Titan where u have Mikasa with really cool bad-ass moments, and her affection towards Eren can be cute sometimes.. but on the big picture her character lacks so much depth and purpose. I honestly dont understand why stuff like that is even happening in terms of characterwriting. She is just a Character for bad-ass moments, thats it. Hinata is just a character for... idk what its called.. this... repeating-realiziation-of-naruto-who-fought-alone-to-the-top-moments and her trying to be 'inspired' by that.

Make Naruto less dumb, and more versatile with his emotions and experience. I want him to think over his situations, to think about the 2-faced-villagers who treated him like kitten and then worshipping him as a hero just because he got strong. He had nothing in his childhood, surely chasing-sasuke isn't the only thing he wants to do or catch-up in his life. There should be more stuff going around in his mindest and inner-self conflicts with some relationships and situations. I don't want him to find out that he holds the 9-tails so in the next episode he can act as if nothing happpened.
 




#949734 The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 22 September 2017 - 05:31 PM

 

 

This enduring love is very thematic in the manga.  

 

 

There shouldnt be 'love' in the first place, it was unjustified.

 

 

A relationship can't be unhealthy for a story

 

every element can be unhealthy within a story if its done poorly and out of the line. which happened with the relationship and the obsession
 




#949721 The NEW NaruSaku Debate Thread

Posted by Riverkid on 22 September 2017 - 04:46 PM

 

 

What I defend really are criticisms that the ending is bad, because he did not make NS happen, which is the root of most arguments that I see. NS would have been great, but not having it happen does not make the story bad. 

why would someone use NS as an argumentation to why the ending was bad when there are 10x other things to compensate that argumentation ?