31574 replies to this topic

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

Oh there's no need to even do  any of that. the solution was very simple from the start, if you ask me and it's not hard to do. Make Sakura Naruto's childhood friend that is still a tsundere to him when he does something stupid but have her smiling and blushing when he talks about how he wants to be Hokage, Make Hinata the same but not as Naruto's fan girl and have her shrink away even around him. THEN those fans would not find her so cute anymore. How do I know? Remember, Sakura is not even that bad of a tsundere compared to some other cases but those other cases are far more tolerated than her.

 

Case in point. I know not all of us here watch Black Clover here but it is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of this dynamic DONE RIGHT (and is one of my very favourite series right now, but besides the point).  You have the main character Asta who is exactly like Naruto. (and I am not saying this lightly) He is a idiotic simpleton that wants to the biggest political figure in his home kingdom, the Wizard King, which is the strongest combat magic user in said kingdom and commands all other mages of said category called "magic knights" which all use magic as a military force and law enforcement at the same time. He was bullied and teased since childhood because he HAS NO MAGIC which is completely unheard of but still is determined to be the Wizard King, and has MANY MANY naysayers even now in the series. Spot the similarities RIGHT THERE? I won't delve into HOW He is trying to become wizard king despite having no magic or the setting and premise, but you get the idea.

 

Now you have the main female lead of the manga/anime, Noelle Silva, who is a princess of that kingdom, and a tsundere completely not unlike Sakura. She was snooty at the start of the manga/anime (still is somewhat now even after character development) and would rub her status in the faces of others, even her friends (she and Asta are assigned to the same magic knight squad), and uses it as a justification of her haughty attitude, BUT "SHOCKER!!", she is in love with Asta. She berates him like a typical tsundere love interest and smacks him with her magic when embarrassed or he does something stupid, but shows to completely fan girl him in silence and inside her head, shows visible concern when there was one time when he lost control of his powers and he looked like a monster similar to Sakura and Naruto, etc etc. and develops into a stronger more confident young woman. How popular is she you ask? She placed third in the Black Clover Popularity polls TWICE.

 

And do note, Asta has has a "Hinata" too in this scenario which is Noelle's cousin. Said cousin is a sweet-natured healer, and also falls for Asta soon after she is introduced, and while she does have fans that prefer her over Noelle to get with Asta, Noelle is still far more popular overall. The cousin's name is Mimosa if you're curious, and has the EXACT SAME dynamic as Hinata, in that she is not on the same team as Asta, barely interacts with him, and has a bust size that is noted by other characters and also used as the butt of jokes on occasion. Despite her obvious crush on Asta she is rarely seen with him, does not spend time with him off duty, and is not hardly seen at all in the series overall, and Asta spends more time with Noelle than even his "best friend/ rival". That's right Asta ALSO has a "Sasuke" that he is life partners with and strives toward the same goal to become wizard king (if you want I'll talk about him later), but Asta spends most of his time with Noelle.

 

My point on all of this is that you see the difference between Noelle and Sakura in the eyes of the fans here here? Noelle is just like Sakura in her dynamic with Asta but she was established incredibly early in the manga to have started liking him in secret but is too embarrassed to show it to him properly, plus she has competition for his affections and it is not just Mimosa, there are a couple of other characters I did not mention that could be called "love interests" for Asta, but these two are the most prominent in the story and again Mimosa is not shown to be with Asta frequently and is off screen a lot of the time just like Hinata. So what is the difference between Noelle and Sakura?

 

Pretty sure that it is because Noelle has shown to have a very soft spot for the MC despite her reluctance to show it or hell even admit it to others or herself most of all. And get this, SEVERAL character can see she loves Asta, even character that don't see her often or know her that well. there are several characters in universe that outright WANT to see them as a couple or acknowledge Noelle's feelings. Also, Noelle progresses a lot as a character in that she has an INSANE amount of magic power, but can't control properly so she started off as a liability early in the manga (just like Sakura again) so her development is learning to actually use her powers and become a stronger person , and she has goals that don't involve Asta at all might I add. It also helps that she is quite the beauty herself, with author himself admitting she is one of the most physically attractive women in the kingdom. If that is not double standards, I don't know what is.

 

BUT do you get it now? the problem is not Hinata at all, but to fix all first impressions of Sakura. I've argued this for years, Hinata is NOTHING, there is nothing special about her besides her family name, she is a side character at best and her so called feelings for the MC are her sole defining feature and she' is NOT EVEN PROMINENT AT THAT. all of Sakura's hatred and Hinata worship has nothing to do with Hinata and everything to do with how others viewed Sakura at the start. If Sakura was shown to love Naruto at the start she likely would be more popular than she is now just like Noelle. And notice, you see A LOT of other Shonen manga/anime heroines that are not physically involved with the plot either. They don't have plot important fights or even fights at all in their series, but do you see them being called weak useless, annoying etc etc. like Sakura has? Often no. Why? because their love for the MC is plot relevant and fans seem to latch on to that and adore it. 

 

But what I'm saying is Hinata is not the problem. And even if she was, the problem is not solved is solved by simply making her a horrible character. That has been done before and those females are still loved for it by these fans, so that is not working. Perfect example. Yuno Gasai from "Future Diary". THAT GIRL is an outright psychotic killer and actually embodies everything you WANT to paint Hinata as. She casually murders others and with a child like glee in her facial expression, and is physically, emotionally and even socially abusive towards her love interest, the MC of the story. she considers anyone he interacts with in their age group a threat to their relationship, so she kills them or attempts to kill them on typical basis. She even drugged and kidnapped him one time for at least a week. Fans STILL love her and want her with the MC and SHE DOES get with him at the end. So you see, it is not enough to just make Hinata as heinous as possible to get these fans to stop worshiping her, and Yuno Gasai is one of MANY examples that prove this point. Just my two cents.

 

And while Mimosa has a thing for Asta, she doesn't let it be something that determines all her existence, and she can work well with him when the two are partnered up together as I've seen in Black Clover, plus Mimosa gets inspired by him.

 

Also, even for being "rivals", Asta and Yuno are more of natural friends due to both having grown up together, in spite of Yuno looking down initially on Asta, but being reminded of his determination and how Asta has more of that at times than he does, and how Yuno gets inspired by Asta's determination, hard work, and guts, just like Asta gets inspired by Yuno's talent and knowledge.

[Phantom_999]

EXACTLY.   I just didn't bring that up because it wasn't part of my point of debate. I was only saying that Noelle is probably everything Sakura could have been if some more love and care were put into her character, plus if she had maybe liked Naruto from the beginning she probably wouldn't have been the point of contention that she was back in the day among American fans ( at least, I hear it was really only in America where she is so divided). I'm sure of it.

 

Let me use another example. Rurouni Kenshin. Kaoru is like Sakura as well in that she is a tsundere that is the love interest with the MC and has little to do with the major fights in the series despite being hailed as a great Kendo Master because because of the borderline supernatural fighting styles and physical gifts that Kenshin, Sanosuke and many many of their adversaries had. That is how it is explained but you don't see her getting ANY CRAP for it by fans that hate on Sakura, mostly. Or how about Dragon Ball? All of the women were reduced to mothers and home makers, even Bulma who was was the deuteragonist at the very start of the manga, yet no one is complaining about them either or calling them "useless", to my knowledge at least, again from these same fans that rag on Sakura for no particular reason.

 

You only see this treatment reserved for Sakura and only for Sakura. And by what I witnessed and hear even now it has to do with the fact that she was the love interest of the MC that was a tsundere to him yet did not have a crush on him like he did on her and instead was was after the popular "bad boy" Sasuke. And yet again I must bring up, no other fans seem to be hating on the girls of their age group squealing and daydreaming about Sasuke, not even Ino. It is only Sakura that gets the heat for that, more or less. Am I wrong?

Edited by Phantom_999, 03 May 2020 - 11:18 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Sigh well, Koshej is at it again attacking a friend of mine on DA, more of his BS. Hell and the thing is he didn't post anything of NH or NS just pokemon with May and Ash, with their wedding.

[VanitasDS76491]

Sigh well, Koshej is at it again attacking a friend of mine on DA, more of his BS. Hell and the thing is he didn't post anything of NH or NS just pokemon with May and Ash, with their wedding.

Wow that's low dudes ego must be huge, wait he commented on a may x ash wedding pic and brought up NH.

[Kagomaru]

EXACTLY.   I just didn't bring that up because it wasn't part of my point of debate. I was only saying that Noelle is probably everything Sakura could have been if some more love and care were put into her character, plus if she had maybe liked Naruto from the beginning she probably wouldn't have been the point of contention that she was back in the day among American fans ( at least, I hear it was really only in America where she is so divided). I'm sure of it.

 

Let me use another example. Rurouni Kenshin. Kaoru is like Sakura as well in that she is a tsundere that is the love interest with the MC and has little to do with the major fights in the series despite being hailed as a great Kendo Master because because of the borderline supernatural fighting styles and physical gifts that Kenshin, Sanosuke and many many of their adversaries had. That is how it is explained but you don't see her getting ANY CRAP for it by fans that hate on Sakura, mostly. Or how about Dragon Ball? All of the women were reduced to mothers and home makers, even Bulma who was was the deuteragonist at the very start of the manga, yet no one is complaining about them either or calling them "useless", to my knowledge at least, again from these same fans that rag on Sakura for no particular reason.

 

You only see this treatment reserved for Sakura and only for Sakura. And by what I witnessed and hear even now it has to do with the fact that she was the love interest of the MC that was a tsundere to him yet did not have a crush on him like he did on her and instead was was after the popular "bad boy" Sasuke. And yet again I must bring up, no other fans seem to be hating on the girls of their age group squealing and daydreaming about Sasuke, not even Ino. It is only Sakura that gets the heat for that, more or less. Am I wrong?

Additionally, Noelle had a sympathetic backstory of being verbally abused and ostracized by her entire family for most of her life to justify her tsundere personality and behavior, which would blunt any annoyance that the fans would have with her attitude.

 

And yeah, I don't understand why Ino gets a pass. Despite popular belief, she doesn't get over her idol crush on Sasuke and still fangirled over him after the Shippuden time-skip, in spite of him being a missing nin. Whereas Sakura is realistically and incredibly conflicted over the issue of Sasuke throughout the manga/anime.  Yet, NaruIno is surprisingly popular despite the fact that such a pairing would theoretically have the same damn dynamics as NaruSaku.

Edited by Kagomaru, 03 May 2020 - 11:39 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

Additionally, Noelle had a sympathetic backstory of being verbally abused and ostracized by her entire family for most of her life to justify her tsundere personality and behavior.
 
And yeah, I don't understand why Ino gets a pass. Despite popular belief, she doesn't get over her idol crush on Sasuke and still fangirled over him after the Shippuden time-skip, in spite of him being a missing nin. Whereas Sakura is realistically and incredibly conflicted over the issue of Sasuke throughout the manga/anime.  Yet, NaruIno is surprisingly popular despite the fact that such a pairing would theoretically have the same damn dynamics as NaruSaku.

So would narutema aka Naruto x temari

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

So Obi-Wan Kenobi beat Kakashi. Thoughts?

[TheFirstEvil100]

Lol happy another Naruto character got killed in a nasty way, now all we need is one which Hinata gets her ass brutally handed to her. But Naruto fans (if we can call them that) are pissed saying Kakashi should have won.

[Illnevergiveup3]

Kakashi died?

[TheFirstEvil100]

Kakashi died?

Yep killed with a lightsaber Kakashi got Darth Maul.

[Bail o' Lies]

So Obi-Wan Kenobi beat Kakashi. Thoughts?

Haven't watched it but the thing is that Kakashi does have a lot of weaknesses. He has an eye the drains his stamina to the point he collapse after using it in the first battle we seen. He once admitted he could only use his signature attack maybe 3-4 times. His signature attack is a rushing straight charge thrust that was outright stated to need the special eye for that attack to ever hit.

 

Kakashi is adaptable but by default he is a close range fighter...and his opponent has a laser sword that can cut through anything.

 

Mid and long range he has the advantage and its a question of can Obi wan use the force to deflect the ninjutsu? 

 

Kakashi real advantage would be his hypnosis and genjutsu mainly because it a question of can obi wan resist or dispel it.

 

Also it a fight between a guy that ends all his well known battles collapsing due to exhaustion versus a guy that is THE master of a defensive style all about playing defensive till their opponents stamina wares out. Who wins?

 

The problem with Naruto characters is that in shounen they are in a weird place power wise compared to other manga. They are not as strong as some of the high end ones like Dragonball, but they are too strong for others that are on the lower end.

 

Which is why Naruto was able to beat Ichigo because assuming Naruto -can hit ghost in the first place- Ichigo has only really been shown strong enough at full power to have the potential to destroy a city. Naruto gained that power once he gain control of Kurama power and was able to produce Beast ball rasengans.

 

While Sasuke versus Hiei. Hiei is a incredibly fast demon (therefor by default physically superior to humans) swordsman with a fire attack that has been shown to annihilate his opponents.  Sasuke fire attacks rarely ever do anything other than leave small burn marks, his strongest attacks are very situational, his special ability is a gimmick where he can swap places with an object, and he just not as fast as Hiei.

 

Toph versus Gaara is came out as her winning. This is apparently one of their more debated decisions as Toph has a noted problem with sand, and its a battle of whose control of it would overpower the other.

 

Jiraiya and Roshi why I mentioned dragonball earlier.

 

Sakura fought Rin Tousaka in DBX she won. Probably because she can kill someone with a punch while Rin's big attacks need expensive gems as foci/catalysis. 

 

Edit: Watched it...dear god the fight dialogue was cringy. Also Obi-wan can get exhausted if he uses too much of the Force and his connection to the force is not as strong as some of the other force users we have seen. He is just more skilled at using what he has.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 05 May 2020 - 03:09 AM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Something Ive been working on for my Walking Dead/Naruto crossover. Its a very rough version mind you.

"You can't trust Sakura, trust me I know she likes to act she is working with you, but in time she will get everyone to fight back," Hinata said, looking at Negan.

"So what are you suggesting?" Negan said, looking at the girl while everyone else watched with fear.

"You need what Naruto Kun can do in time, she will use his confused feelings for her to fight back, Naruto Kun is confused right now, but you can stop her," Hinata said with a smile.

"I'm thinking Hinata. I'm thinking how Rick and Naruto both threatened to kill me, how this Sakura looks at me with hate with them lady balls. How they clearly hate my guts. But they are out there right now gathering kitten for me, so I don't hurt any of the fine people that live here." He said, looking at the girl. "They are swallowing their hate and getting kitten done. That takes guts, and then there's you the girl who waits till they are both gone to sneak over and talk to me and get me to do her dirty work so you can have whisker face. So I got to ask if you want Sakura dead why don't you just kill Sakura yourself."

"What no, I didn't. I don't..." Hinata said, knowing she was caught out.

"You know what I think cuz I have a guess," Negan said as he moved closer to Hinata. "It's because you've got no guts," he said taking his knife stabbing her in the gut.

[VanitasDS76491]

Lol happy another Naruto character got killed in a nasty way, now all we need is one which Hinata gets her ass brutally handed to her. But Naruto fans (if we can call them that) are pissed saying Kakashi should have won.

Yep we need that and Sakura to win her fight depending on who she's fighting.  

Yep killed with a lightsaber Kakashi got Darth Maul.

Yes he did and it was awesome Naruto is like 2 wins and 4 losses.

[James S Cassidy]

So Obi-Wan Kenobi beat Kakashi. Thoughts?

Obi-Wan is a beast in lightsaber combat and has fought many different types of enemies across galaxies. We know he survives every fight up until Darth Vader, but even then he let himself be taken and didn't lose to Darth. This guy has defeated enemies that were trained to be Jedi hunters and some have even defeated many of them before Obi-Wan got to them. One he defeated why being just a padawan.

Kakashi is a product of poor writing and is only powerful by work of mouth and NOT through action.

I alreaydy had one guy try to debunk me saying that Kakashi was far more powerful, but every single thing he showed, save for maybe two incidents, was Kakashi either being boosted by Naruto or was boosted by Obito like with the Susanoo. Both of these were not used in Death Battle because it is outside help.

Hell, Kakashi shouldn't have even had the Sharingan in the fight, but they gave it to him anyway even though the canon story took it from him.

"Kakashi could use the Kamui to instantly kill Obi-Wan"
Maybe, if Obito gave him help, but Obito wasn't in this fight. Plus, Obi-Wan had force precognition. The force could easily tell him that something was going to happen and then help him dodge it. Especially since Kakashi had trouble aiming the Kamui on moving targets. Sure, he had better aim later, but I could also argue that was because of Obito standing near him. As Madara said "The eyes powers get strong when they are together."

Kakashi also couldn't use it more than 3 times per day. I get told he used in multiple times in the war, but other than Kishimoto doing bad writing plots, it could be argued again that it was because of Naruto's influence, all the healings, and the like. Not one week before he used it three times and he nearly died. He used it once against Sasuke and he was weakened and was tripping over himself. One week before the war. How can he go from using it once and losing strength to being able to use it multiple times and still be in fighting form? That is utterly ridiculous. That's bad writing on Kishimoto's part.
 
And was funny where one guy called me a "Naruto Casual" and then shut the F up after I explained to him several details he missed.

"Star Wars Legends is non-canon"

Well, it WAS canon until Disney bought it and destroyed the canon to make way for their own. I mean, George Lucas even signed off saying they were canon. This argument is such a hard one because many Star Wars fan argue that Star Wars Legends will always be THE canon.

George Lucas' Star Wars works much differently than Disney's Star Wars. So, they deiced to use the creator's Star Wars. Hell, they even handwaved George Lucas away when he gave them advice.

That's like Boruto writers telling Kishimoto to kitten off and doing their own thing.

Although, that makes me question....if another studio bought the rights to Naruto...and they changed the ending and everything....would the American fanbase accept it or would they treat Naruto like the old Star Wars fans treated Disney and say that their canon and the original and REAL canon?

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 06 May 2020 - 03:57 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Obi-Wan is a beast in lightsaber combat and has fought many different types of enemies across galaxies. We know he survives every fight up until Darth Vader, but even then he let himself be taken and didn't lose to Darth. This guy has defeated enemies that were trained to be Jedi hunters and some have even defeated many of them before Obi-Wan got to them. One he defeated why being just a padawan.

Kakashi is a product of poor writing and is only powerful by work of mouth and NOT through action.

I alreaydy had one guy try to debunk me saying that Kakashi was far more powerful, but every single thing he showed, save for maybe two incidents, was Kakashi either being boosted by Naruto or was boosted by Obito like with the Susanoo. Both of these were not used in Death Battle because it is outside help.

Hell, Kakashi shouldn't have even had the Sharingan in the fight, but they gave it to him anyway even though the canon story took it from him.

"Kakashi could use the Kamui to instantly kill Obi-Wan"
Maybe, if Obito gave him help, but Obito wasn't in this fight. Plus, Obi-Wan had force precognition. The force could easily tell him that something was going to happen and then help him dodge it. Especially since Kakashi had trouble aiming the Kamui on moving targets. Sure, he had better aim later, but I could also argue that was because of Obito standing near him. As Madara said "The eyes powers get strong when they are together."

Kakashi also couldn't use it more than 3 times per day. I get told he used in multiple times in the war, but other than Kishimoto doing bad writing plots, it could be argued again that it was because of Naruto's influence, all the healings, and the like. Not one week before he used it three times and he nearly died. He used it once against Sasuke and he was weakened and was tripping over himself. One week before the war. How can he go from using it once and losing strength to being able to use it multiple times and still be in fighting form? That is utterly ridiculous. That's bad writing on Kishimoto's part.
 
And was funny where one guy called me a "Naruto Casual" and then shut the F up after I explained to him several details he missed.

"Star Wars Legends is non-canon"

Well, it WAS canon until Disney bought it and destroyed the canon to make way for their own. I mean, George Lucas even signed off saying they were canon. This argument is such a hard one because many Star Wars fan argue that Star Wars Legends will always be THE canon.

George Lucas' Star Wars works much differently than Disney's Star Wars. So, they deiced to use the creator's Star Wars. Hell, they even handwaved George Lucas away when he gave them advice.

That's like Boruto writers telling Kishimoto to kitten off and doing their own thing.

Although, that makes me question....if another studio bought the rights to Naruto...and they changed the ending and everything....would the American fanbase accept it or would they treat Naruto like the old Star Wars fans treated Disney and say that their canon and the original and REAL canon?

Even if they dismissed most of the old EU.  They still have both the clone wars cartoons. Which does give obi wan force techniques that would help him out in this fight.

 

Kishimoto doesn't really keep an eye on people stamina or chakra level unless its relevant to the plot at the time. Often in shippuden people can just spam their ability until Kishimoto decides they are out. Though of people hit with low chakra level leading to exhaustion kakashi is hit with it the most. Throughout the entire manga.

 

Kakashi had that eye throughout Naruto.  They put people -in theory- at their most powerful and iconic. So, Kakashi has the sharingan.

 

Honestly, his biggest problem is his stamina since he one who admits it is his biggest weakness and he has several ability that he admits drains him, and he up against a guy known for being master of a defensive style based around waiting till their opponents are exhausted to strike.

 

Its really a question of do you believe Obiwan can use the force to defend against Kakashi's ninjutsu, and how resistant is he to genjutsu if at all? If he can't Kakashi has an advantage if he can then its a battle of who can hit the other first along side a battle of endurance.

 

The big problem with the fight is they basically describe Obi-wan of having infinite energy due to the Force. He doesn't. Jedi have limits on how much they can uses similar to chakra and Obiwan is consider to have an average connection to the force which he uses skillfully.

 

They would treat it as non canon if kishimoto did it himself.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 07 May 2020 - 05:35 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Even if they dismissed most of the old EU.  They still have both the clone wars cartoons. Which does give obi wan force techniques that would help him out in this fight.

 

Kishimoto doesn't really keep an eye on people stamina or chakra level unless its relevant to the plot at the time. Often in shippuden people can just spam their ability until Kishimoto decides they are out. Though of people hit with low chakra level leading to exhaustion kakashi is hit with it the most. Throughout the entire manga.

Kishimoto, especially during the War arc, loved playing fast and loose with the rules. However, my argument is based on several scenes with Kakashi saying that both Naruto and Obito were boosting his eye abilities. It is one of the rules that was actually stuck the guns to.

It is not a great rule, but at least it shows limitation. What is broken is not Kakashi, but Naruto's Kurama cloak that seems to just gives everyone such a boost to make them 3 times more powerful than they actually are. The fact that Kakashi can spam Kamui during this time, but every other time he gets extremely weak during this is proof enough.

I challenge anyone to prove me otherwise that Kakashi can still do as much as he did in the war arc WITHOUT the boosts from Naruto and Obito.
 

Kakashi had that eye throughout Naruto.  They put people -in theory- at their most powerful and iconic. So, Kakashi has the sharingan.

o

People in the comments loved using Kakashi infused with Obito to show how powerful Kakashi is like him phasing through Kaguya and using those Kamui shurikans. I know they use the characters at their maximum potential, but it is funny about this back and forth between their strongest form and chronological form can be two differient things. Kakashi in his later years loses his most devastating techniques, but he longer loses as much stamina and has to compensate for his short comings now. Obi-Wan was still kicking ass even in his old age to the point that he beat Darth Maul a second time even in his 60s.

If we want to go that route, then Obi-Wan being a force ghost is his most powerful form and considering that Disney has made it so that Force Ghost can basically do whatever they want from moving objects to even wielding lightsabers.....why not?

Force Ghost Obi-Wan would have literally infinite Force, can't be killed, and tons more.... and it is something not alot of Jedi can do. It is the ultimate force technique to be able to keep your form despite death and being one with the force and since Disney loves making their own rules...Obi-Wan might be more powerful now than he has ever been.

 

Honestly, his biggest problem is his stamina since he one who admits it is his biggest weakness and he has several ability that he admits drains him, and he up against a guy known for being master of a defensive style based around waiting till their opponents are exhausted to strike.

 

Not only did Kakashi admit it is his biggest weakness, but he even admits when attacking the Gedo Mazo that Naruto has increased his strength and stamina 3 times over. So, it is not unreasonable to believe that Kakashi is just juiced from Naruto and is the reason why he can do so much.
 

Its really a question of do you believe Obiwan can use the force to defend against Kakashi's ninjutsu, and how resistant is he to genjutsu if at all? If he can't Kakashi has an advantage if he can then its a battle of who can hit the other first along side a battle of endurance.

 

This is just a hard question to answer because you're using a hypothetical that can't be answered. Is the force more powerful than chakra? The answer mostly likely is the same: "Depends on the user." It is also asking, would mind-trick work on Kakashi since he is NOT a force user? What does it mean to be "weak-minded?"

Can ninjutsu work on Obi-Wan? I'd make an argument for no for 2 reasons.
1. Force users can use their sense to see reality and precognition. As Obi-Wan said himself: "Your eyes deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings." Even Luke taught this to Rey. So, I don't think genjutsu can work on him and how Death Battle made Obi-Wan concentrate and despell the genjutsu is totally possible. Especially since Kakashi is not really known for his genjutsu even with the Sharingan.

2. The force is something that exists everywhere while most chakra exists in the individual. Yes, you can have nature chakra, but they classify it as something different and Kakashi has never used nature chakra.

Honestly, unless something states otherwise, we have to assume that the Force and Chakra are two very different things and they work on two different principles. Especially since the force is more wide-spread than chakra and it allows so many more abilities that any force-sensitive user could achieve.

 

 

The big problem with the fight is they basically describe Obi-wan of having infinite energy due to the Force. He doesn't. Jedi have limits on how much they can uses similar to chakra and Obiwan is consider to have an average connection to the force which he uses skillfully.

This is where I have to say that it really truly depends on what their forte is.
Take example, Naruto has a HUGE ton of chakra to the point that he is a power house, but he sucks at precision and thus he over expends chakra to force abilities to occur. Like his shadow clones. Naruto only makes it work cause he uses twice as much chakra to make it happen.
Sakura, on the other hand, it the best at precision. She may not have alot of chakra, but she knows how to use it the most effectively.
Sasuke also does not have alot of chakra, but because he is an Uchiha, most of his abilities are circumvented and he just naturally uses the least amount of chakra to do the most damage.

Obi-Wan is like Sakura. No, he doesn't have as strong a force ability like Yoda, Mace Windu, and the like, but what he excels at is he uses what force he does have to be the best Jedi duelist of his age. He is even stronger than Mace Windu and Yoda is in terms of combat.

He is able to react in nanosecond and move just as quickly. (And this is in both canons)
He can almost see the world in slow-mo with concentration and this is something not even Kakashi can do. We know the Sharingan can help see just as fast, but as he said, it doesn't mean he can actually perform the same techniques. Sasuke has a hard time with Rock Lee despite the sharingan because Rock Lee was trained in that area much better. Alot of people say the Kamui is light speed, but if Obi-wan can fight and move in nanoseconds then Kakashi can't hit him even if he wanted to.

Anakin was stronger in the force than Obi-Wan and was even boosted by the dark side and yet Obi-Wan was not only an even match, but beat him. Keep in mind, Obi-Wan wasn't even trying to kill Anakin at first either and was argued holding back.

This is true even in his old age. Obi-Wan was just a beast in combat dueling and such. He survived Order 66 where most of the Jedi were killed and took out small armies by himself.

That's why I think Obi-Wans wins even without force techniques at his disposal like moving heavy rocks and such. Although, that doesn't mean he doesn't have defensive abilities. He can block force lightning and such easily and is this comparable to the Chidori? I am not sure.

In Legends, he is even faster and stronger than the Disney version.

Kakashi could technically see Obi-Wan and follow with the Sharingan, but that doesn't mean his body will be just as fast nor can he just copy the techniques. No, I think Obi-Wan takes it.

[Nate River]

 

Oh there's no need to even do  any of that. the solution was very simple from the start, if you ask me and it's not hard to do. Make Sakura Naruto's childhood friend that is still a tsundere to him when he does something stupid but have her smiling and blushing when he talks about how he wants to be Hokage, Make Hinata the same but not as Naruto's fan girl and have her shrink away even around him. THEN those fans would not find her so cute anymore. How do I know? Remember, Sakura is not even that bad of a tsundere compared to some other cases but those other cases are far more tolerated than her.

 

Case in point. I know not all of us here watch Black Clover here but it is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of this dynamic DONE RIGHT (and is one of my very favourite series right now, but besides the point).  You have the main character Asta who is exactly like Naruto. (and I am not saying this lightly) He is a idiotic simpleton that wants to the biggest political figure in his home kingdom, the Wizard King, which is the strongest combat magic user in said kingdom and commands all other mages of said category called "magic knights" which all use magic as a military force and law enforcement at the same time. He was bullied and teased since childhood because he HAS NO MAGIC which is completely unheard of but still is determined to be the Wizard King, and has MANY MANY naysayers even now in the series. Spot the similarities RIGHT THERE? I won't delve into HOW He is trying to become wizard king despite having no magic or the setting and premise, but you get the idea.

 

Now you have the main female lead of the manga/anime, Noelle Silva, who is a princess of that kingdom, and a tsundere completely not unlike Sakura. She was snooty at the start of the manga/anime (still is somewhat now even after character development) and would rub her status in the faces of others, even her friends (she and Asta are assigned to the same magic knight squad), and uses it as a justification of her haughty attitude, BUT "SHOCKER!!", she is in love with Asta. She berates him like a typical tsundere love interest and smacks him with her magic when embarrassed or he does something stupid, but shows to completely fan girl him in silence and inside her head, shows visible concern when there was the time when he lost control of his powers and he looked like a monster similar to Sakura and Naruto, etc etc. and develops into a stronger more confident young woman. How popular is she you ask? She placed third in the Black Clover Popularity polls TWICE.

 

And do note, Asta has has a "Hinata" too in this scenario which is Noelle's cousin. Said cousin is a sweet-natured healer, and also falls for Asta soon after she is introduced, and while she does have fans that prefer her over Noelle to get with Asta, Noelle is still far more popular overall. The cousin's name is Mimosa if you're curious, and has the EXACT SAME dynamic as Hinata, in that she is not on the same team as Asta, barely interacts with him, and has a bust size that is noted by other characters and also used as the butt of jokes on occasion. Despite her obvious crush on Asta she is rarely seen with him, does not spend time with him off duty, and is hardly seen at all in the series, plus Asta spends more time with Noelle than even his "best friend/ rival". That's right Asta ALSO has a "Sasuke" that he is life partners with and strives toward the same goal to become wizard king (if you want I'll talk about him later), but Asta spends most of his time with Noelle.

 

My point on all of this is that you see the difference between Noelle and Sakura in the eyes of the fans here here? Noelle is just like Sakura in her dynamic with Asta, withthe tsundere attitude but she was established incredibly early in the manga to have started liking him in secret but is too embarrassed to show it to him properly, plus she has competition for his affections and it is not just Mimosa, there are a couple of other characters I did not mention that could be called "love interests" for Asta, but these two, Noelle and Mimosa, are the most prominent in the story and again Mimosa is not shown to be with Asta frequently and is off screen a lot of the time just like Hinata. So what is the difference between Noelle and Sakura?

 

Pretty sure that it is because Noelle has shown to have a very soft spot for the MC despite her reluctance to show it or hell, even admit it to others and herself most of all. And get this, SEVERAL character can see she loves Asta, even character that don't see her often or know her that well. there are several characters in universe that outright WANT to see them as a couple or acknowledge Noelle's feelings. Plus, Noelle progresses a lot as a character in that she has an INSANE amount of magic power, but can't control properly so she started off as a liability early in the manga (just like Sakura again) so her development is learning to actually use her powers and become a stronger person , and she has goals that don't involve Asta at all might I add. It also helps that she is quite the beauty herself, with author admitting she is one of the most physically attractive women in the kingdom. If that is not double standards, I don't know what is.

 

BUT do you get it now? the problem is not Hinata at all, but to fix all first impressions of Sakura. I've argued this for years. Hinata is NOTHING, there is nothing special about her besides her family name, she is a side character at best and her so called feelings for the MC are her sole defining feature and she' is NOT EVEN PROMINENT AT THAT. All of Sakura's hatred and Hinata worship has nothing to do with Hinata and everything to do with how others viewed Sakura at the start. If Sakura was shown to love Naruto at the start she likely would be more popular than she is now just like Noelle, and not have her tsundere behaviour held in contempt because she did not even secretly like him. And notice, you see A LOT of other Shonen manga/anime heroines that are not physically involved with the plot either. They don't have plot important fights or even fights at all in their series, but do you see them being called weak useless, annoying etc etc. like Sakura has? Often no. Why? because their love for the MC is plot relevant and fans seem to latch on to that and adore it. 

 

But what I'm saying is Hinata is not the problem. And even if she was, the problem is not solved is solved by simply making her a horrible character. That has been done before and those females are still loved for it by these fans, so that is not working. Perfect example. Yuno Gasai from "Future Diary". THAT GIRL is an outright psychotic killer and actually embodies everything you WANT TO paint Hinata as. She casually murders people and with a child like glee in her facial expression, and is physically, emotionally and even socially abusive towards her love interest, the MC of the story. she considers anyone he interacts with in their age group a threat to their relationship, so she kills them or attempts to kill them on regular basis. She even drugged and kidnapped him one time for at least a week. Fans STILL love her and want her with the MC and SHE DOES get with him at the end. So you see, it is not enough to just make Hinata as heinous as possible to get these fans to stop worshiping her, and Yuno Gasai is one of MANY examples that prove this point. Just my two cents.

 

I'll start by saying, I like Black Clover (though I've only seen the anime), but I don't give a rip about the pairings. Since it's a paint by numbers Shonen I fully expect it to end with a paint by numbers pairing. That's fine. It doesn't concern me whether Asta is paired with Noella, Mimosa, or anyone else as long as the writing for it holds up. 

 

That said... 

 

I like Sakura a great deal more than Noelle. When I think of the typical tsundere and what I dislike about the trope Noelle is exactly the type of character I think of: where physical violence and insults are often hurled unfairly at the love interest and other characters. I mean she isn't on the same level as a Takahashi tsundere and someone like Naru from Love Hina, but its bad. She hits and yells people (especially Asta) to hide her feelings and cover up there her own embarrassment. I understand the trope often involves comedic elements and exaggeration and I don't have much of an issue when its in response to a character saying or doing something stupid (and I'll grant Asta is frequently a moron with limited emotional intelligence). Howeber, its hard to watch characters get smacked around and treated badly when they did not do anything wrong or made an honest mistake because the tsundere can't adequately deal with there own feelings. And unfortunately, Noelle does this frequently. It's not the only piece to her character, so I don't hate her. However, she grates on me at time.

 

I also dislike the comparison between Mimosa and Hinata. Mimosa has a similar personality type, but isn't nearly as withdrawn, is on screen more frequently, and is a better developed character. From the parts I've seen, she does more than like Asta. 

 

As for Sakura, I think she's generally well written. In the manga, she's an incredibly mild Tsudnere and most of the examples where she is one occur because not because she's unable to handle her feelings because Naruto is being an idiot. I don't mind that she hates him the beginning or that she is both superficial and puts on a front because that's how she thinks she is "supposed" to act. It gives her character room to grow and change. That growth is why I like it. She realizes her own immaturity and weakness and actively take steps to move past it. Those can be seen throughout Part 1. The one blind spot remains Sasuke at that point and this is where Kishimoto fails with her. I'm honestly fine with it remaining after Part 1, provided it was addressed in Part 2. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Sasuke's initial lack of screen time and Naruto's own feelings about Sasuke hid this for awhile, but it eventually falls apart because its not properly addressed. To be fair  to Sakura, this is a problem exists across the board. I have less of an issue with Sasuke actions (with two exceptions (taka and his reasons for wanting to Hokage)) and far more of an issue with the casts reaction to them. His actions match his motivations. It's the tolerance of those actions that is so bad. Sakura's feelings, to me, are less of a Sakura problem and more of a series wide problem. To many characters either ignore those actions or too easily accept that Naruto is right in wanting to save him not matter what he does.

 

This to me is what makes 693 so awful. It's not simply the pairing component, its that it takes all that development and throws it in the trash. Turns out, she's still the same person she was in 181. What was the point of that development? The fact that she's a stronger ninja is beside the point because the story is as much as about character growth as it is about throwing punches. I get his desire for a parallel, but I can't recall seeing so poorly used. The purpose of such a comparison is to show the change and not highlight the lack of it. One of her major flaws as a person relates to her view of Sasuke. Turns out, nothing changed. Even if he were dead set with SasuSaku, Kishimoto didn't need to do this. 

 

Making her his childhood friend probably would have make her more liked, but then she's not the same character and all that growth we see is gone. I can't say it would be bad, but it'd rob what I liked about her part 1 character. Making her like Noella....no, thanks. It also conflicts with Naruto's back story. I honestly was looking forward to the Kyuubi revelation with her. I have no idea what he was smoking when he decided not to show that. Additionally, I'm not really in love with the idea of molding her to make her more popular. I understand this is a business and the audience reaction does matter, but I've never seen anything that would suggest she was so disliked that pandering was necessary. The accusation is Kishimoto did this with Hinata and, to me, this kind of desire to change Sakura suggest that he needed to pander with her instead of Hinata so the audience liked her more and, thus, we'd could get what we want instead of them. I don't see a meaningful difference beyond character preference and most of the stuff put forth would change what was good about Sakura. It feels like people want to mold her to compensate for the author and editors lack of intestinal fortitude. If you think that was why we got the pairings we did, what faith should you have that efforts to change Sakura so that the pandering goes your way instead wouldn't also result in a colossal dumpster fire? In the end, you're still putting faith in the guys you believe screwed it all up to begin with.

 

The one area I feel (possibly) for Kishimoto is that I think he genuinely wanted to end it much sooner. With the way the pain arc ended and the numerous rumors that he wanted to do other things, I genuinely believe this series was supposed to end long before it did. I had issue with Pain and some of the things before it, but the whole thing truly begins to fall apart post-Pain.

 

I agree that making her a horrible character as suggested earlier is not the way to go, especially the way it was described in the post you're referring to. I I cannot see how that could be executed in a way that wouldn't elevate the romance subplot to a major plot point nor do I see how you avoid screwing up tone of the series because such a plot probably does not end well for Hinata or Naruto. The romance is a subplot. This doesn't excuse the bad writing, but its not a romance story . Making Hinata a horrible character elevates that plot and elevates her as character. The problem with Hinata is the series does nothing to develop her and does nothing to develop her relationship with Naruto. SasuSaku suffers from a similar problem. It needed to something to develop these, but it does nothing.

 

EDIT: As an aside, one of the great ironies of Hinata is that she is seen as a stronger person for essentially meeting expectations. By that I mean, she proves herself by doing the thing that her father wanted of her in the first place, when a much stronger showing would be to tell her family where to shove it and do her own thing. Being a ninja is a pathway to relevance, so it'd be hard to do this without sidelining her.

 

Serious question: Did Hinata actually want to be a ninja? Does the series ever say?

 

One of my crack pairings was Naruto and Hanabi, and I've always enjoyed stories where Hanabi casually tells her family to kitten off, especially since the Hyuuga issues played straight means she has very limited control over her own destiny (far less than Hinata does).

[Phantom_999]

I'm happy to hear that you like Black Clover, Nate. Well I'd like to address this first. Noelle is exaggerated in her tsundere tendencies, in the same way as Sakura was in the anime compared to the manga and it is very apparent in the Black Clover manga. While Noelle's personality is not much different in the manga, I assure you she is nowhere near as bad, and most of the times she hits Asta are mere anime extensions that did not exist with only a handful of those moments being "canon material" in the manga. And to be honest If you say that the pairings are not a concern for you as long as the writing incorporates justification for the couple, then agreed. But let's not pretend here, Asta has gotten the most development with Noelle by far, in comparison to Mimosa or any other girl he is shipped with at this point. And Mimosa is definitely a better character than Hinata, but I really haven't seen anything that would differentiate her form Hinata either, since you see a lot of her motivation is to stand beside Asta and she mostly wants to grow stronger so she can fight beside him. You don't see much beyond that, though granted she does show to care about Noelle and does her duties as a magic knight without hesitation, so she does not have "Asta in the brain" entirely, but the fact remains. And trust me I overlooked nothing, and it's not hard since she does not appear that often in the story. With that out of the way.
 
I will agree that that Sakura is or was a well written character, all things considered. My suggestion for her to be Naruto's childhood friend that liked him from the start was merely to address the double standard that she has compared to other tsunderes. Sakura is definitely not even as bad or annoying of a character when compared to the likes of Naru from Love Hina. But It seems that Sakura is far less tolerable than Takahashi's tsunderes or any incredibly exaggerated example you can think of like Louise from the Familiar of Zero. Like I said those characters have their haters too but for some reason it looks like Sakura is far more hated than any of them and no matter the character development she goes through her haters can never let go of their initial impressions of her, and to my experience even detractors of tsunderes in other series don't seem to have such a fueled vendetta like they do to Sakura. You really have to wonder what's up with that, since I'm sure many of these "vocal haters" of Sakura watch other anime and they probably would be fine with other tsunderes, maybe.
 
But yes there really nothing wrong with how Sakura was written, in fact I have already made the argument before the only real issue with The Naruto Sakura and Sasuke Dynamic is that the love triangle was dragged out to very unrealistic and unrelatable proportions. That Sakura would still be smitten with Sasuke after all that time is probably what many take issue with even some of us here. The writing itself especially was not giving any reason for her to still hang on to any feelings for him him, romantic or not since it was apparent she did not really see anything past the mysterious "bad boy" Sasuke was and there shows to be no bonding between them because Sasuke would not even let her in "emotionally" so for them to be together despite all of that is nothing short of an "ass pull". Definitely the low point for Sakura in the series was to throw all of her development out the window, but the same can said for Naruto, so whatever.
 
Ultimately we can all agree here that Sakura' character was not the real issue, but how her character resolution was handled. and that extends to the series as a whole. But again, I was only addressing the issue that the story only turned out they way it did partially because there were too many sympathizers with Hinata for no real reason other than the fact that she liked him when he was an an ostracized social pariah, with nothing else outstanding or even remarkable about her, but she is loved for that fact alone. There was also not nearly as much fan support for Sakura as there should have been for the opposite reason in that she is the object of Naruto's affection, but it was unrequited and she was pining after Sasuke instead. I am merely theorizing that things may not have played out as they did IF Sakura did indeed like Naruto from the beginning or at least was more sympathetic to him, or just drop the crush on Sasuke because their dynamic would maybe have worked out the same even without the drama of a likes b who likes c, but that is an assumption on my part obviously. Who knows?

Edited by Phantom_999, 09 May 2020 - 08:48 AM.

[Nate River]

I'm happy to hear that you like Black Clover, Nate. Well I'd like to address this first. Noelle is exaggerated in her tsundere tendencies, in the same way as Sakura was in the anime compared to the manga and it is very apparent in the Black Clover manga. While Noelle's personality is not much different in the manga, I assure you she is nowhere near as bad, and most of the times she hits Asta are mere anime extensions that did not exist with only a handful of those moments being "canon material" in the manga. And to be honest If you say that the pairings are not a concern for you as long as the writing incorporates justification for the couple, then agreed. But let's not pretend here, Asta has gotten the most development with Noelle by far, in comparison to Mimosa or any other girl he is shipped with at this point. And Mimosa is definitely a better character than Hinata, but I really haven't seen anything that would differentiate her form Hinata either, since you see a lot of her motivation is to stand beside Asta and she mostly wants to grow stronger so she can fight beside him. You don't see much beyond that, though granted she does show to care about Noelle and does her duties as a magic knight without hesitation, so she does not have "Asta in the brain" entirely, but the fact remains. And trust me I overlooked nothing, and it's not hard since she does not appear that often in the story. With that out of the way.
 
I will agree that that Sakura is or was a well written character, all things considered. My suggestion for her to be Naruto's childhood friend that liked him from the start was merely to address the double standard that she has compared to other tsunderes. Sakura is definitely not even as bad or annoying of a character when compared to the likes of Naru from Love Hina. But It seems that Sakura is far less tolerable than Takahashi's tsunderes or any incredibly exaggerated example you can think of like Louise from the Familiar of Zero. Like I said those characters have their haters too but for some reason it looks like Sakura is far more hated than any of them and no matter the character development she goes through her haters can never let go of their initial impressions of her, and to my experience even detractors of tsunderes in other series don't seem to have such a fueled vendetta like they do to Sakura. You really have to wonder what's up with that, since I'm sure many of these "vocal haters" of Sakura watch other anime and they probably would be fine with other tsunderes, maybe.
 
But yes there really nothing wrong with how Sakura was written, in fact I have already made the argument before the only real issue with The Naruto Sakura and Sasuke Dynamic is that the love triangle was dragged out to very unrealistic and unrelatable proportions. That Sakura would still be smitten with Sasuke after all that time is probably what many take issue with even some of us here. The writing itself especially was not giving any reason for her to still hang on to any feelings for him him, romantic or not since it was apparent she did not really see anything past the mysterious "bad boy" Sasuke was and there shows to be no bonding between them because Sasuke would not even let her in "emotionally" so for them to be together despite all of that is nothing short of an "ass pull". Definitely the low point for Sakura in the series was to throw all of her development out the window, but the same can said for Naruto, so whatever.
 
Ultimately we can all agree here that Sakura' character was not the real issue, but how her character resolution was handled. and that extends to the series as a whole. But again, I was only addressing the issue that the story only turned out they way it did partially because there were too many sympathizers with Hinata for no real reason other than the fact that she liked him when he was an an ostracized social pariah, with nothing else outstanding or even remarkable about her, but she is loved for that fact alone. There was also not nearly as much fan support for Sakura as there should have been for the opposite reason in that she is the object of Naruto's affection, but it was unrequited and she was pining after Sasuke instead. I am merely theorizing that things may not have played out as they did IF Sakura did indeed like Naruto from the beginning or at least was more sympathetic to him, or just drop the crush on Sasuke because their dynamic would maybe have worked out the same even without the drama of a likes b who likes c, but that is an assumption on my part obviously. Who knows?

 

I had a feeling the anime probably exaggerated it. That was why I mentioned I had only seen it and not read the mange. Given what happened to Sakura, this seems to be a relatively common accurance in manga adaptations. Maybe, its only anime stuff, but I still feel Mimosa exists for more reason than just to like the main character. But as I said before, I have zero pairing preferences in that series. In fact, the romance subplot feels more comedic than Naruto's given that Asta seems to unintentionally and unknowingly causes girls to like him while he only has eyes for the nun. And his infatuation with her feels completely comedic. 

 

As far as why she gets more hate, I doubt there is any one reason. I think Naruto's back story contributes a great deal to this because where it places the characters. To me, Naruto's back story both brilliant and terrible in terms of writing. I think its brilliant in that it very quickly and effective gets the audience to sympathize with him. It's also brief while still getting across what it needs too. He's a bit of brat in part one, but we know why almost immediately and its a sympathetic because his treatment is so unjust. It's terrible in that it barely survives first contact with the plot. A problem that actually gets worse as the series goes on. Even brushing aside basic questions of and why he was living alone, there are so many continuity problems. Minato's guard for example.

 

By the time the audience is introduced to Sakura, the story is already built to view thinks from his sympathetic point of view. Her negative treatment has nothing to do with Kyuubi, but its not hard to think that the audience may have seen it through that lens. It comes across as unfair, especially since we know why he likes and that its genuine in Chapter 3 while she has a superficial crush on someone who hates her. Is her view of Naruto as an impediment to her crush on Sasuke (her stated reason for not liking him)? Who knows? We only see this from Naruto's point of view.  I also think the anime's inclusion of Hinata in the classroom didn't help because it was a big basis for the argument that she was the first to be nice to him. First impressions are hard to shake.

 

As for SasuSaku, I couldn't pinpoint a specific scene, but I think her feelings are more genuine later in Part 1 because she actually knows more about him. That doesn't excuse Part 2 because he's genuinely a terrible person for the entire second half of the series (one of the reasons I loathe taka). And I agree, this is less a Sakura problem and more a series wide problem. I think Sakura (in terms of popularity) is unfairly burdened with this issue when the whole cast does it throughout part 2. I mean, quite a few people in the NS fandom sideshipped SK, which always baffled me because everything bad you can say about Sakura and Sasuke exists (and is worse) with Sasuke and Karin. But there is nothing on the Sasuke side, just as there is nothing in the Naruto side of NaruHina. As bad as the Last is, at least its something. Did we ever get anything for the Sasuke part of SasuSaku? Nevertheless. I agree with you on this front. She continues to like him despite all he does and the series never makes any effort to justify it. It just assumes it, and then when called on after the series end Kishimoto gave an incredibly poor answer. 

 

I would quibble with saying Naruto's resolution was a problem. The problem is more an issue of timing than execution, if you consider its main resolution to be the Pain arc (which I do). Naruto largely resolved how you would expect him too. For me, Naruto's treatment in Part 2 had two big issues (1) he was flanderized (especially post-pain) and (2) the resolution occurred too early. With the exception of bringing Sasuke back, Naruto's character resolved after the Pain fight. Naruto really lost the ability to drive the plot at that point because most his non-Sasuke plot threads were resolved. 

 

I also don't mean to crap on your idea. It's not necessarily bad. It could work and work well, but Sakura would likely be a different character and we'dd definitely lose some of the part 1 development I liked.

[Phantom_999]

 Oh I know you're not and you definitely have a point that Sakura is obviously a more well written character ultimately with how she was already made. I agree with that, and I definitely agree with everything you posted. But obviously, those that hated Sakura do not view her as we do, and they take their frustrations on her character by vicariously wishing Naruto would have a perfect trophy wife that would love him unconditionally and wait on him hand and foot because he is entitled to it. Ironic, because that is JUST as shallow of a reason for Naruto and Hinata to get together as it was for hating Sakura and thinking her crush on Sasuke was disgusting and petty. Again, My suggestion was only to stamp out the cause of Sakura's hatred and to give explanation for it because of the double standards fans have with her compared to other characters like her. I've experienced, and I'm sure so have you worse tsunderes than Sakura and she is also quite a mild example when you think about it. Yet many fans that don't truly follow the story appreciate what she does for the plot or even accept her because of her lack of feelings for Naruto at first despite being the love interest.  Like you said Sakura is a well diverse and complex character that evolves form a immature love struck pre-teen to a genuine kind and caring woman that can show compassion unconditionally and protect others from harm, even strangers. But again fans seem to like tsunderes like Noelle more where their main personality trait is being kind of  a "kitten" with a hidden soft spot because they are insecure about their feelings, especially towards their love interest.

 

So while I admit I am fond of my idea of Sakura being Naruto's childhood friend, it is true Sakura would lose some of her appeal and vast amount of development for those that actually can love her as a character already. So Ultimately Sakura doesn't really need to change, what does is the suspension of disbelief that what she felt for Sasuke was love and that she could continue to love him despite seeing what a terrible person he ended up as.  that is probably what so many take issue with after all these years.

 

side note* Mimosa can definitely be defined more than just a princess with a crush on Asta, I just don't see it yet, and the story has not changed that dynamic thus far. Again, Ironic that Hinata also had that potential too with the back story and the character motivation potentially being there, but wasted opportunity, right?  

Edited by Phantom_999, 30 May 2020 - 02:08 AM.