54175 replies to this topic

[catsi563]

She doesnt even have to lose any feeling for Sasuke she just has to do what the character was shown doing throughout the series. Grow up. everyone has crushes but eventually we put those feelings in proper perspective and we grown up and move on. 

 

Sakura through the story was shown to be doing that growing up and moving on but the ending Axed that by cutting her off at the knees and assassinating  her character and reverting it back to 12yold Sakura

[Kagomaru]

 

ROFL!! X-D Nice way to spin that to be ridiculous as it usually comes off as.

 

On another note...

 

 

This bit could make me think of a NaruSaku confession given how much was done with Marco and Star in the course of Star vs. the Forces of Evil, and I imagine Sakura would be like Star if she came to grips with her feelings with Naruto and just had lost all the feelings that she had for Sasuke romantically and realized who she wanted to be with.

What's interesting about that situation is that Marco in the clip admits that his crush on Jackie became a front since he essentially fell in love with Star from the beginning and was in complete denial about it, which is what Sasuke effectively became for Sakura in relation to Naruto until...the end.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

She doesnt even have to lose any feeling for Sasuke she just has to do what the character was shown doing throughout the series. Grow up. everyone has crushes but eventually we put those feelings in proper perspective and we grown up and move on. 

 

Sakura through the story was shown to be doing that growing up and moving on but the ending Axed that by cutting her off at the knees and assassinating  her character and reverting it back to 12yold Sakura

 

True, I just figure losing the feeling of love is what I was getting at, Catsi, since that too can be a huge sign of growing up too.

 

 

What's interesting about that situation is that Marco in the clip admits that his crush on Jackie became a front since he essentially fell in love with Star from the beginning and was in complete denial about it, which is what Sasuke effectively became for Sakura in relation to Naruto until...the end.

 

Yeah, and then the lies just to try to break Naruto and Sakura away from each other just because Studio Pierrot had to be petty ****s and ruined the series just to get the ending they wanted themselves. XP And the difference too is that for Marco, he was sorting things out with his feelings for Star throughout the series, and he and Jackie both realized they weren't the right fit in a mature way compared to how things were with Team 7

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 17 September 2020 - 08:00 PM.

[Phantom_999]

She doesnt even have to lose any feeling for Sasuke she just has to do what the character was shown doing throughout the series. Grow up. everyone has crushes but eventually we put those feelings in proper perspective and we grown up and move on. 

 

Sakura through the story was shown to be doing that growing up and moving on but the ending Axed that by cutting her off at the knees and assassinating  her character and reverting it back to 12yold Sakura

 

If they didn't revert Sakura back to her 12 year old self maybe the relationship wouldn't be as revolting. Well scratch that. It is still a disgusting relationship on Sasuke's end since he did nothing but but bring destructive negativity to any notion of a relationship they could have. But still, if Sakura showed us that she was into Sasuke for more than just being the "sexy bad boy" then I wouldn't be complaining. BUT SHE DOESN'T. She doesn't even bring up the fact that "Sasuke" (Naruto) complimented her forehead, which she always hated about herself until that point. And on that note, does being around Sasuke make her genuinely happy and comfortable? I don't think so. She turns into this "fake" giggling fangirl that just says what she thinks he wants to hear. That isn't genuine happiness. Compare that to haw she is around Naruto. She is her genuine self and no matter how hard her haters deny it, she shows very sweet and tender moments with Naruto as well as giving her genuine thoughts and feelings when they speak to each other.

 

In the same vein, NaruHina wouldn't be so insulting if "The Last" did not effing try to turn it into a Shojo cliche kitten storm with the notion that Hinata is Nardo's one true love. Instead if they had simply put in the effort that Naruto and Sakura settle on their current relationship and show that they are perfectly happy being just friends and Naruto genuinely moves on from her to be with Hinata as a second love then again, it wouldn't be such a big deal for me. I would just be disapppointed that all that Development and effort with Sakura went down the drain, but I wouldn't outright detest the ending like I do now. But they couldn't even do that. They had to make that childish god forsaken idea that all Hinata cultists were preaching about How Naruto Nardo was always subconsiously in love with Hianta but just didn't notice/realize it. 

Edited by Phantom_999, 25 September 2020 - 05:35 PM.

[Namaenash]

What they're trying here with their new "core" resolve is to cater to that large part of the fandom who once said that they'd want an Uchiha to be a Hokage (since the Obito thing) + why there aren't any badasses Uchiha females kind of thing.

 

I remember back in the day in the fandom how those were two of the major pleas so to speak, fans had. And for once, have someone outside the Hokage line of training be an actual Hokage. 

 

So basically what they're trying to do now is cater to that part of the fandom. It's what they've been trying to do ever since Naruto ended.

 

If you recall, even Kishimoto's own interviews in the Last is like copy paste the reasoning of NaruHina and SasuSaku fans applied to his ending. 

 

I think they very much tried to satisfy the loud minority thinking that they are the majority and it will keep the fire of Naruto going, but they were in for a surprise.

 

Because dynamics changed. And it all backfired, and Boruto isn't that successful as they would expect it to be.

 

And even if some statistics do look good, they can be tweaked and not fully express the audience you're surveying. Because they may be answering A or B, but that A or B means it's the closest to their answer, not necessary the answer itself. But because they had no other option, that's why they chose what they chose.

 

There's even a book about this, called How to lie with statistics that goes into more detail about this.

 

However, Naruto is a big example of that, that certain statistics doesn't mean the reception is what you expected it to be. They thought that by making NH and SS canon, like I said, the sequel will be a success. And yet, it isn't... It isn't even close to what the source material has been.

 

Everywhere you turned back in the day, there were talks about Naruto. Nowadays? Just here and there, mostly in closed groups more than anything. 

 

Plus it doesn't even generate the same type of discussions. Naruto had themes that made you question a lot of stuff from real life, Naruto had lessons to teach and whatnot. 

 

Boruto? It's all about a parasitic alien festa and trying to 'fix' what they perceived as errors from the initial franchise, just because a loud minority saw it like that. And yet, the silent majority just left and well, like we discussed, this series is nothing more than a shell of its former self.

 

Speaking of statistics (my fav subject ), NH/SS are not even backed with strong statistical argument.

 

For a start, in the official character popularity polls, Sakura has always been more popular than Hinata. Now, that was just a proxy metric. Next, the glaring one is this: looking at volume sales, one can see that the volume dropped ~15%-20% when volume 64 came out; and it never came back again. Have you ever heard "canary in the coal mine"? As strange as it sounds, such behavioral signals can be found in almost any modern economic situation. People who are not aware can easily be trapped.

 

Now, let's take a look at the big picture of market situation for anime industry which you can find here: https://aja.gr.jp/en...apan-anime-data

 

In summary:

• Between 2014 - 2018, overseas anime market size has grown significantly, contributing to almost half of the anime market size. Most of the growth was attributed to VOD (Video on Demand).
• The growth rate in 2018 in overseas market slowed down.
• Between 2015 - 2018, the market size grew almost twice and exceeded 2 trillion yen for the first time ever!

 

Question to Naruto Franchise, in which, between 2004 - 2015, the franchise produced 11 movies. That's about 1 movie per year on average.

• Why they didn't make anymore movies after 2015, where the overall market size grow at an incredible rate? The franchise doesn't stop at chapter 700 with Boruto: Naruto Next Generation.
   
• Comparing with peer franchises, like Case Closed, it's clear that majority of popular anime franchise enjoyed the benefit of overall market size increase (a Case Closed movie released in 2014 got ~4 billion yen, while its movie released in 2019 got ~9 billion yen / 88 million usd --> this is about 4x the box office of The Last). It would be extremely absurd anyone with business sense does not take this opportunity to grow their franchise. The water level of the river is rising (market size went up), so your boat should rise as well!
   

 

So, in my view,  it is clear that NH/SS decision was made not backed with data, but rather, a biased opinion. They are targeting to an almost non-existence market. This causes the franchise to tumble and its fandom died. You can't deny, pareto principle applies in this situation. Narusaku/NS -> the significant few in terms of financing the franchise, has been taken out. It's a norm that 80% of your sales come from 20% of your customers.

 

Without facts, we can only guess the amount of damage that this franchise got. A proxy indicator on the franchise's financial health are available in many places:

- Boruto anime still cannot surpass original Naruto anime sales

- No more yearly movies

- Manga sales is literally sitting at ~15% - 10% of what its used to be during the heyday.

- Boruto TV series keep jumping its airtime, as if trying to find a fixed and steady audience.

- Kishimoto new series cancelled at volume 5, even though he was planning for 10-15 volumes. This shows that his name as a brand, is no longer carrying a weight.

Edited by Namaenash, 16 September 2020 - 05:45 PM.

[Phantom_999]

And let's not forget, factually speaking that even if shipping was not taken into consideration, almost all true consumers of the franchise that showed geniune fininacial support for the series were following it for the bonds of the main cast and wanted closure for the series. "The Last" killed off all interest in the consumers not only because NaruSaku, which probably the most popular hetero couple was falsely advertised as making progress in the movie, but the very movie was falsely advertised as an epic conclusion to the story of Team 7 which many paying fans would have wanted to see just as much if not more. Instead they were treated to the RED STRING OF ANIHALATION between Hinata and former main character turned trophy husband for Hinata, Nardo Scumzamaki. That ultimately sealed the franchise's fate as they alienated the native market that was the vast majority of it's consumers and many more actual consumers overseas for a vocal group that they had no real statistics on. They catered to these Hinata cultists globally because their opinion was what the the Hinata wanking executives that plague both Shueisha and the Naruto animation team at Studio Pierrot WANTED TO HEAR. They wanted to please all international Hinata fanatics because THEY ALL WANTED a "dutchwife" version of her to be made in real life to plough into, and needed their self insert in the manga/anime to do that in the story vicariously in the mean time.   

Edited by Phantom_999, 16 September 2020 - 09:04 PM.

[Illnevergiveup3]

you know, the fact that she called Sasuke a "baka" at the end was all the indication anybody needed to know that NaruSaku was the end game. In my opinion, it was clear that she was originally supposed to say that to Naruto, most likely after he said something that only Naruto would say. But they just transferred it over to her saying it to Sasuke to fit that SasuSaku kitten. Just like it was clear that Boruto(unfortunately) was supposed to be a NaruSaku kid while Sarada was a SasuKarin kid.

Edited by Illnevergiveup3, 17 September 2020 - 02:00 AM.

[Phantom_999]

That is something that upsets me. She NEVER used "baka" endearingly with Sasuke and he never gave her a reason to do so. Sasuke has always been the cool mature one so what does Sakura even have need to call him "baka" for? That is what is so insulting to me. That they take Naruto and Sakura's dynamic, split it, and force it on to these crack pairings in the most cringing, half-@$$ed lazy way possible. Apparently, there is no explanation needed for these horriblly excused marriages despite Sasuke spending the entire damn series indifferent to Sakura's feelings and Naruto went through the entire series with his heart set on Sakura even after Hinata confessed to him, regardless of whether he understood what she meant.

Edited by Phantom_999, 18 September 2020 - 06:24 PM.

[Chatte]

 

Speaking of statistics (my fav subject ), NH/SS are not even backed with strong statistical argument.

 

For a start, in the official character popularity polls, Sakura has always been more popular than Hinata. Now, that was just a proxy metric. Next, the glaring one is this: looking at volume sales, one can see that the volume dropped ~15%-20% when volume 64 came out; and it never came back again. Have you ever heard "canary in the coal mine"? As strange as it sounds, such behavioral signals can be found in almost any modern economic situation. People who are not aware can easily be trapped.

 

Now, let's take a look at the big picture of market situation for anime industry which you can find here: https://aja.gr.jp/en...apan-anime-data

 

In summary:

• Between 2014 - 2018, overseas anime market size has grown significantly, contributing to almost half of the anime market size. Most of the growth was attributed to VOD (Video on Demand).
• The growth rate in 2018 in overseas market slowed down.
• Between 2015 - 2018, the market size grew almost twice and exceeded 2 trillion yen for the first time ever!

 

Question to Naruto Franchise, in which, between 2004 - 2015, the franchise produced 11 movies. That's about 1 movie per year on average.

• Why they didn't make anymore movies after 2015, where the overall market size grow at an incredible rate? The franchise doesn't stop at chapter 700 with Boruto: Naruto Next Generation.
   
• Comparing with peer franchises, like Case Closed, it's clear that majority of popular anime franchise enjoyed the benefit of overall market size increase (a Case Closed movie released in 2014 got ~4 billion yen, while its movie released in 2019 got ~9 billion yen / 88 million usd --> this is about 4x the box office of The Last). It would be extremely absurd anyone with business sense does not take this opportunity to grow their franchise. The water level of the river is rising (market size went up), so your boat should rise as well!
   

 

So, in my view,  it is clear that NH/SS decision was made not backed with data, but rather, a biased opinion. They are targeting to an almost non-existence market. This causes the franchise to tumble and its fandom died. You can't deny, pareto principle applies in this situation. Narusaku/NS -> the significant few in terms of financing the franchise, has been taken out. It's a norm that 80% of your sales come from 20% of your customers.

 

Without facts, we can only guess the amount of damage that this franchise got. A proxy indicator on the franchise's financial health are available in many places:

- Boruto anime still cannot surpass original Naruto anime sales

- No more yearly movies

- Manga sales is literally sitting at ~15% - 10% of what its used to be during the heyday.

- Boruto TV series keep jumping its airtime, as if trying to find a fixed and steady audience.

- Kishimoto new series cancelled at volume 5, even though he was planning for 10-15 volumes. This shows that his name as a brand, is no longer carrying a weight.

Oooh, that is really a nice thing there and I totally agree with it. 

 

I worked in marketing so I know the 80-20 rule of things. Basically that's the conversion rate you get on a advertisement, usually.

 

The argument I had was with a SS fan that told me how SS is popular, much more unlike NS, actually.

 

And she kept bringing me data from current times, when I was discussing with her the past times, when the manga ran...

 

And I was like... we're talking apples and oranges here?

 

If you're interested, you can access it here & here.

 

At some point I just stopped bothering with them. 

 

Because she was just using logical fallacies and like I said, comparing apples to oranges.

 

I was talking about Sakura's popularity outside Japan and that's what it influenced this godforsaken story, she kept bringing data from Japan/Asian continent.

 

It was at that time that I knew this girl didn't want to get into a real discussion and if she were to break the data and actually discuss it through, she'll just brush it over. Cuz she never properly addresses my points, she just puts statistics there, but she cannot interpret them properly and in the right context.

 

Funny story? We're both Romanian. She was very friendly to me, until I dared to speak against SS and tell the truth that Sakura is a hated character overall...

It was then that we switched to English and it was like we weren't even from the same land, lol.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Oooh, that is really a nice thing there and I totally agree with it. 

 

I worked in marketing so I know the 80-20 rule of things. Basically that's the conversion rate you get on a advertisement, usually.

 

The argument I had was with a SS fan that told me how SS is popular, much more unlike NS, actually.

 

And she kept bringing me data from current times, when I was discussing with her the past times, when the manga ran...

 

And I was like... we're talking apples and oranges here?

 

If you're interested, you can access it here & here.

 

At some point I just stopped bothering with them. 

 

Because she was just using logical fallacies and like I said, comparing apples to oranges.

 

I was talking about Sakura's popularity outside Japan and that's what it influenced this godforsaken story, she kept bringing data from Japan/Asian continent.

 

It was at that time that I knew this girl didn't want to get into a real discussion and if she were to break the data and actually discuss it through, she'll just brush it over. Cuz she never properly addresses my points, she just puts statistics there, but she cannot interpret them properly and in the right context.

 

Funny story? We're both Romanian. She was very friendly to me, until I dared to speak against SS and tell the truth that Sakura is a hated character overall...

It was then that we switched to English and it was like we weren't even from the same land, lol.

 

It can be really interesting when we argue with someone sometimes. Of course, the numbers don't lie though that other countries are the reason Sakura got screwed out of her rightful place as heroine and love interest, and how Hinata also had her full potential wiped clean just so she could play pattycake with Naruto. XP

[BlueStarSaber]

How did non English speaking countries feel about sakura?

[Chatte]

I think most of them jumped the bandwagon of hating Sakura. Though, when I cosplayed her at a Comic Con convention, I did have quite some people coming and taking pictures with me.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I think most of them jumped the bandwagon of hating Sakura. Though, when I cosplayed her at a Comic Con convention, I did have quite some people coming and taking pictures with me.

 

There's a lot of people out there who still like Sakura. I know I still do, I just HATE what she's become due to bad writing and the bad ending.

[Chatte]

 

There's a lot of people out there who still like Sakura. I know I still do, I just HATE what she's become due to bad writing and the bad ending.

Well, same as me. I very much still love Sakura and she's still my fave. However, I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon that defends her character from all the criticism she receives. Because like it or not, they did destroy her character with her pinning on Sasuke. That there is her major problem.

Otherwise, she is the most admirable character of the series. She's the real underdog and hardworker.

[Bail o' Lies]

 

How did non English speaking countries feel about sakura?

I think most of them jumped the bandwagon of hating Sakura. Though, when I cosplayed her at a Comic Con convention, I did have quite some people coming and taking pictures with me.

I think nH had a vocal minority in most countries. Most people didn't feel like arguing with them over something so petty; also not help that Sakura did have some moment that wouldn't impress people. So, it made it feel like there was a huge nH fanbase in a lot of countries; primarily because it seemed that Sakura was so hated. Then the ending happen, it was kitten so people stop buying Naruto products and only the true Hinata fans as well as those fans who would watch Naruto no matter how bad it got were left.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 20 September 2020 - 10:07 AM.

[Chatte]

I think nH had a vocal minority in most countries. Most people didn't feel like arguing with them over something so petty; also not help that Sakura did have some moment that wouldn't impress people. So, it made it feel like there was a huge nH fanbase in a lot of countries; primarily because it seemed that Sakura was so hated. Then the ending happen, it was kitten so people stop buying Naruto products and only the true Hinata fans as well as those fans who would watch Naruto no matter how bad it got were left.

Yeah, that must be the case to be honest. Like I said, there was a vocal minority and a silent majority. And at the end of everything, it all translates in sales and well, Boruto isn't that legendary as Naruto is so...

 

And why would it be? It's all the same kitten festa that was promoted at the end of Naruto - no training, no hard work, everything is offered to these kids on a silver platter. She shinobi system is still working fine and dandy, nothing's changed too much.

They still hold the chuunin exams - which were supposed to well.. end cuz those things symbolized totally different things in canon, so on and so forth.

 

But who cares about canon and the good message it had in the beginning anyway?

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Yeah, that must be the case to be honest. Like I said, there was a vocal minority and a silent majority. And at the end of everything, it all translates in sales and well, Boruto isn't that legendary as Naruto is so...

 

And why would it be? It's all the same kitten festa that was promoted at the end of Naruto - no training, no hard work, everything is offered to these kids on a silver platter. She shinobi system is still working fine and dandy, nothing's changed too much.

They still hold the chuunin exams - which were supposed to well.. end cuz those things symbolized totally different things in canon, so on and so forth.

 

But who cares about canon and the good message it had in the beginning anyway?

 

Yeah. It's why I hate how things went with Naruto to say that he was a reincarnation of one of Hagoromo's sons, but the way I did it in my fanfic is that Naruto is a descendant, and his growth isn't due to that bloodline, it's his hard work and his latent potential, thanks also in part to the fact his father was someone like that and same with his mom.

 

As for why the shinobi system is still like it is, I chalk it up to Shikamaru and Kakashi kinda pushing for it to be like that to Naruto given they were among the idiots to not see the fatal flaws in it in a sense with their fanaticism of what being a ninja is, even with the things it did to them in the long run, so you think they'd be fine with letting it change!

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

There's a lot of people out there who still like Sakura. I know I still do, I just HATE what she's become due to bad writing and the bad ending.

 
She really got hated by most of the creators (not Kishi) is because Kishi made Sakura the female lead in part 2. SP along with most of Kishi's assistants did not like that because they invested a lot on money in the post part 1 filler arcs of making Naruto and Hinata interact with one another off the manga. Sakura's role as the female lead was diminished when Kishi fell victim to lies that Sakura was not popular after the Sasori Arc. Sakura was  still the female lead at that time and was pushed to a more supportive role? Why.? Kishi's first editor also claimed that they focus and build on Sasuke's character to bring in more fans. 
 
Her character was then pushed to the sidelines for business and profits. Not for the plot. As I mentioned before several years ago, the reason why they had Kishi down played Sakura's character was to prevent her from having significant impact on the manga and limit her interactions with Naruto. Her character growth equals to NaruSaku happening and they could not allow.
 
And it was also said that the heroine change was another business decision for the New Project Era called The Burrito the next generation.

[Dalton.T.R]

 
She really got hated by most of the creators (not Kishi) is because Kishi made Sakura the female lead in part 2. SP along with most of Kishi's assistants did not like that because they invested a lot on money in the post part 1 filler arcs of making Naruto and Hinata interact with one another off the manga. Sakura's role as the female lead was diminished when Kishi fell victim to lies that Sakura was not popular after the Sasori Arc. Sakura was  still the female lead at that time and was pushed to a more supportive role? Why.? Kishi's first editor also claimed that they focus and build on Sasuke's character to bring in more fans. 
 
Her character was then pushed to the sidelines for business and profits. Not for the plot. As I mentioned before several years ago, the reason why they had Kishi down played Sakura's character was to prevent her from having significant impact on the manga and limit her interactions with Naruto. Her character growth equals to NaruSaku happening and they could not allow.
 
And it was also said that the heroine change was another business decision for the New Project Era called The Burrito the next generation.

Yeah, sorry, but a studio should not have that kind of power over my story as the author.

 

I'M the one who came up with these characters. I'M the one who made this world. I'M the one who made a story that YOU got interested in. As far as I'm concerned, the author is the god the studio must answer to.

 

In no way shape or form should the AUTHOR AND CREATOR of a series have to answer to a studio. As the author, whatever I say goes. Period! If a studio doesn't like that, then tough kitten for them! The author should not have to change their plot for the sake of the studio. You want to make filler? Fine. But you're not changing the canon material of whatever I put down.

 

As an author and a world builder that kitten pisses me off to no end. 

Edited by Dalton.T.R, 21 September 2020 - 02:56 AM.

[ree]

How did non English speaking countries feel about sakura?

In Latin America Sakura is hated. But recently I've been watching some youtubers who were so NH's fans admit Naruto would be better with Sakura.