182 replies to this topic

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

She's failing to even come at me anymore. She replies to the replies to my posts, not the posts themselves. What good is a fact checker who won't even come at you? They let your facts stand without bothering to check them. This shows a lack of fastidiousness in regard to fact checking which belies a lack of integrity.

And the fact she goes for the replies only shows she only believes in hyperbole, rather than an actual debate.

[James S Cassidy]

:clap:

Damn, James, that was amazing!!

But seriously, the irony here of You-know-who and her claims of Naruto always having feelings of love for Hinata is that it isn't said so in the series itself, and that effectively he only wanted her because Toneri wanted her, like the stupid ass claims Naruto only wanted Sakura to beat Sasuke, when that ain't true since the bench scene shows Naruto figuring out he loves Sakura because they are so similar, not because she's some prize to beat a rival, like how The Last contradicts itself by saying Naruto "loves" Hinata, when his actions show him guilted into it as well as to beat Toneri since he wanted her.

Guess You-know-who will now come at me, but she isn't worth it to me since she isn't a fact checker, she is a fact dodger, who deflects and I have seen the type elsewhere iponline, and have just figured screw what they say or think.

Well, as Analyzer said, Naruto is a selfish and shallow person after all.
 

And the fact she goes for the replies only shows she only believes in hyperbole, rather than an actual debate.

 

I think we found a new fact checker. Want the job?

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 November 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[DrK]

I'm a fact checker, too. I have shown beyond a doubt that Kishimoto's characterization of Sakura is completely screwed up and inconsistent. What has Analyzer shown? That it's possible to keep replying to a thread as long as you still have the free time to do so?

[Kasimir38]

 

 

Here let me put this back on track.

Sakura is hated because she isn't Naruto's property, but Hinata is liked because she IS Naruto's property and she willing to become that property. Woman's worth in this story is based only on who they belong to and because Naruto is the selfish and shallow main character and Hinata is his property...this is why they love her so much.

And here we were thinking these characters were actually....well, characters.They are possessions.
 

 

That's not helpful.

Don't know if this is meant seriously or as a joke, but since I don't understand the joke, I take it as serious:

Sakura - haters actually hated the thought of NS. And many Hinata fans dislike the fact that Hinata got reduced on her relationship with Naruto and is only seen as his girlfriend or wife.

 

I understand that in a debate you don't always share the same opinion with each other, but may I ask, that this thread stays civilized? I don't feel like participating in bashing any user.

[James S Cassidy]

I'm a fact checker, too. I have shown beyond a doubt that Kishimoto's characterization of Sakura is completely screwed up and inconsistent. What has Analyzer shown? That it's possible to keep replying to a thread as long as you still have the free time to do so?

lol okay, you can fact check the manga and Bryon can fact check Analyzer. Sound good?
 

 

 

 

That's not helpful.

Don't know if this is meant seriously or as a joke, but since I don't understand the joke, I take it as serious:

Sakura - haters actually hated the thought of NS. And many Hinata fans dislike the fact that Hinata got reduced on her relationship with Naruto and is only seen as his girlfriend or wife.

 

I understand that in a debate you don't always share the same opinion with each other, but may I ask, that this thread stays civilized? I don't feel like participating in bashing any user.

Hey, I am just going by what Analyzer and the pro-enders say ::wink wink::

The pro-enders always talk about how Hinata "deserves" Naruto because she some how had to prove herself to be Naruto's love interest. What's the best way to prove to someone you belong to them? By acting like their property. Remember, nowhere does any of these people say that Naruto "deserves" Hinata. They only say Hinata "deserves" Naruto. Why is that?

This is not about love or feelings. I mean, if it did, you'd think Naruto's would have been noticed right? Nah, you see true love is not about how you feel anymore. It is about how much someone "deserves" you and the only way to prove that is to show how loyal they are to you. Are they willing to jump in front of a bullet? Are they willing to ignored everyone else, but you? Are they willing to do everything at your beck and call no matter how mundane or sexist it may be?

I guess my way of love is different, but in the Naruto universe this is supposedly how love works now-a-days.

Oh, I also forget that in the Naruto universe only the female's actions and views matter. You see if a male character does all of this for a female character or even to another male it doesn't count because in the Naruto universe males don't have a concept of what love is. They more attribute love and caring to say...the love to their favorite food. And since males can't have enduring love, then the males are obviously extremely shallow when it comes to picking mates. I guess this is why they don't "deserve" anyone since not one of them has that enduring love.

At least, this is what Analyzer has told me. I am still deciding this one though. Don't want to joke around here. ::wink wink::

Alright, I am done. This game bores me now.



 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 28 November 2017 - 05:17 PM.

[DrK]

I understand that in a debate you don't always share the same opinion with each other, but may I ask, that this thread stays civilized? I don't feel like participating in bashing any user.

I don't usually bother with this but for the pathetic treatment of the characters. If Analyzer due to her love of Kishimoto can't treat Sakura with respect, why should I be respectful?

 

Analyzer fails to show Sakura any respect or dignity. And she perpetrates this offense against Naruto as well. These are characters beloved by many of us. I won't stand idly by as she treats them like crap due to her love for a terrible man who ruined his manga in the hopes of making more money. It tries my patience. This is the Naruto x Sakura fanclub, right? Why are you here if you think Naruto and Sakura are both pieces of s***?

[James S Cassidy]

I don't usually bother with this but for the pathetic treatment of the characters. If Analyzer due to her love of Kishimoto can't treat Sakura with respect, why should I be respectful?

 

Analyzer fails to show Sakura any respect or dignity. And she perpetrates this offense against Naruto as well. These are characters beloved by many of us. I won't stand idly by as she treats them like crap due to her love for a terrible man who ruined his manga in the hopes of making more money. It tries my patience. This is the Naruto x Sakura fanclub, right? Why are you here if you think Naruto and Sakura are both pieces of s***?

He's got a point...why would someone be on a pro Naruto and Sakura fanboard when they don't like NS or Naruto and Sakura as characters?

[Yyubie]

So Analyzer said in short , it's okay for Naruto to moved on from Sakura to Hinata but it's not okay for Sakura to moved on from Sasuke and she must endure the suffering as single parent being called useless , etc.

 

 

Oh and i forgot that Analyzer herself said shes a female!!

Edited by Yyubie, 28 November 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[DrK]

Sakura's care for Naruto showed oceanic depths to her character. So if you say she should have been with Sasuke, you are surgically removing depth from her character. And you're implanting her with sinister intentions. Because she acted as if Naruto was more important. The most important, actually. It's not shallow to want to be with someone who is more important to you than anyone else. The bridge, Pain, and CPR scene established this.

 

Naruto lost an arm in retrieving Sasuke. Sakura cannot be good if she then wants to be with Sasuke and abandons what existed between her and Naruto, as well as her parents and everyone else in Konoha without so much as a goodbye. Kishimoto himself bashed Sakura.

Edited by DrK, 28 November 2017 - 05:27 PM.

[DrK]

Not everyone does it, but your "ruin" the manga seems to be over a pairing choice

 

We know you don't.

[DrK]

 

Okay? (This retort doesn't make any sense if it's directed at me).

Sure it does. You came back to the thread, read every reply, and ignored the explanations that were provided.

[DrK]

 

In my most recent post? I assumed James was joking, and did not wish to tear it apart for that reason, given he is suggesting inappropriate views if I take it seriously. 

 

Bryon may not have watched the last, and is either very inaccurate, not remembering, or making stuff up.

 

But to Yyubie and yourself I actually responded directly to your provided explanations. In short for yourself, you are claiming bashing by an unsupported definition, which I called out. 

 

But if we've exhausted this Hinata and hating Sakura post (Another negative post), there's not much else to say. 

It's not like that is the only example. There are so many posts that myself, James, and others have made that you never replied to, instead choosing to criticize a user for expressing his opinion without providing a justification that you feel worthwhile. Tell them they're wrong for thinking a certain way because they didn't explain themselves, while someone else did. It's honestly a pitiful and cowardly tactic. You shouldn't be replying to that kind of post AT ALL if your goal isn't just to get attention. You don't value our posts and arguments. But I'm done with this too. If only you actually respected the fact that people do not want to debate with someone with an agenda like yours and stopped responding to them constantly, there would never have been an issue.

Edited by DrK, 28 November 2017 - 07:10 PM.

[Kasimir38]

The pro-enders always talk about how Hinata "deserves" Naruto because she some how had to prove herself to be Naruto's love interest. What's the best way to prove to someone you belong to them? By acting like their property. Remember, nowhere does any of these people say that Naruto "deserves" Hinata. They only say Hinata "deserves" Naruto. Why is that?

This is not about love or feelings. I mean, if it did, you'd think Naruto's would have been noticed right? Nah, you see true love is not about how you feel anymore. It is about how much someone "deserves" you and the only way to prove that is to show how loyal they are to you. Are they willing to jump in front of a bullet? Are they willing to ignored everyone else, but you? Are they willing to do everything at your beck and call no matter how mundane or sexist it may be?

I guess my way of love is different, but in the Naruto universe this is supposedly how love works now-a-days.

 

 

The main argument for NH is Hinata being loyal to Naruto and liking him before everyone else, trying to sacrifice herself blabla. But- what about Naruto? If I counter with: Doesn't he "deserve" to be also with the one he always loved? It's like Naah. Naruto's feelings don't count. Sakura showing her affection? Doesn't count. Hinata deserves him because she was the first that liked him. Like, Naruto needs someone who "deserves" him. It sounds a bit like arranged marriage.

[Sakura? No, Sakura isn't the right one for him. She didn't like him from the start, having prejudices.Did she change? Well, yes, but a bit too late! Look at Hinata! He never noticed her? Well, but she's perfect for him! Always admired him...She will be a great wife. No one will complain. What does the husband think? I DON'T CARE WHAT THE HUSBAND THINKS! This is about what other people will think about them! Obviously, they like Hinata. We don't need that...new - age relationship stuff!]

Tbh, I don't think she deserves him just because she always liked him. She wasn't "there" for him. (Also one of the main arguments) She didn't stand up for him whenever he was bullied. She was just in the background, and the only time she actually did something was in the Pain arc, but wasn't really helpful. (Remember the times Sakura risked her life for him? Don't count!)

Just my opinion.

 

But another example: Just imagine a series in which the main hero is doomed to marry his fangirl and forget about his long - term crush which slowly warmed up for him just because that fangirl was his first fan ever. That's how I feel about NH.

[DrK]

The dynamic with potential romantic interactions between the members of Team 7 and how the ending destroyed its own logic that it had created.

 

Sakura at the beginning likes Sasuke because having him for herself would validate many things about herself that she felt insecure about. She's a civilian ninja, large forehead, she's flat-chested, etc. But the sad thing about SasukexSakura is that these things would in fact matter to Sasuke. Well, at least some of them would, it's hard to say that they all would. He at the very least would not find them a specific reason TO like her. So the intention was that she move on to someone who loves her for who she is and that is Naruto. Because Sasuke actually can't love her, he has no reason to. He even says this.

 

So this way for Sakura to find happiness and confidence in who she is was denied to her by Kishimoto, Sasuke was forced to act in an OOC manner, and Naruto was denied true love with someone who he loved for her strengths and her weaknesses.

[RulesofNature]

 

The main argument for NH is Hinata being loyal to Naruto and liking him before everyone else, trying to sacrifice herself blabla. But- what about Naruto? If I counter with: Doesn't he "deserve" to be also with the one he always loved? It's like Naah. Naruto's feelings don't count. Sakura showing her affection? Doesn't count. Hinata deserves him because she was the first that liked him. Like, Naruto needs someone who "deserves" him. It sounds a bit like arranged marriage.

[Sakura? No, Sakura isn't the right one for him. She didn't like him from the start, having prejudices.Did she change? Well, yes, but a bit too late! Look at Hinata! He never noticed her? Well, but she's perfect for him! Always admired him...She will be a great wife. No one will complain. What does the husband think? I DON'T CARE WHAT THE HUSBAND THINKS! This is about what other people will think about them! Obviously, they like Hinata. We don't need that...new - age relationship stuff!]

Tbh, I don't think she deserves him just because she always liked him. She wasn't "there" for him. (Also one of the main arguments) She didn't stand up for him whenever he was bullied. She was just in the background, and the only time she actually did something was in the Pain arc, but wasn't really helpful. (Remember the times Sakura risked her life for him? Don't count!)

Just my opinion.

 

But another example: Just imagine a series in which the main hero is doomed to marry his fangirl and forget about his long - term crush which slowly warmed up for him just because that fangirl was his first fan ever. That's how I feel about NH.

 

NH really though is the franchise undermining it's roots, namely Naruto's development as a person.

 

In the beginning, Naruto wasn't meant to be an ideal person. He was whiny, self-centered, jealous of what others had, causing trouble because it was the only means he had to get the attention he craved. Sure, he had a good heart under it but there is no denying he needed to grow up all the same. His lonliness itself was a driving factor in all this, he was someone without family or friends. He had no bonds with anyone prior to Iruka taking a mortal blow for him, and during the first part of the series he went about making bonds with those around him. He emphasized with others and began putting their own good ahead of his own.

 

But this also lead to his devotion towards saving Sasuke. Naruto finally had connections to other people and Sasuke, the best member of his class, actually respected Naruto's abilities as a ninja. In this instance, Naruto had tasted the acceptance he had always wanted and when Sasuke left the village he wanted to bring Sasuke back in order to prevent Sasuke from severing that bond. At this point, Naruto is on the edge for doing something for a selfless reason (bringing Sasuke back for Sakura despite Naruto having a crush on her) and doing it for a selfish reason (bringing Sasuke back because he continues to want Sasuke's respect). In latter parts, this changes because Naruto wants to save Sasuke from himself.

 

The Last tries to say Naruto already had a bond despite all of this, a bond with the girl he thought was weird back in the academy. What's more, this bond is supposed to be the most important one of his life. Never mind that Hinata never helped Naruto through his troubled childhood, she is obsessed with being with him to the point she's more worried about a scarf than her sister, or that she fell in love with Naruto way before his development kicked in. Oh wait, The Last made Naruto appear to be selfish too in order to be with the selfish Hinata. This is the bond Naruto is supposed to spend the rest of his life with despite the fact the discovery of bonds is a major driving force of his character.

 

It's a case of the story not realizing what it's saying, invalidating earlier beliefs it exposed. Remember when we got the lore dump that only Uzumaki's could contain the Kyubi because of their unique chakra? Naruto's abilties end up being defined by his heritage in contrast to how he was presented with his fight with Neji. As the story went on it worked against itself, deteriorating until it didn't realize what it was saying anymore.

[DrK]

It's a case of the story not realizing what it's saying, invalidating earlier beliefs it exposed. Remember when we got the lore dump that only Uzumaki's could contain the Kyubi because of their unique chakra? Naruto's abilties end up being defined by his heritage in contrast to how he was presented with his fight with Neji. As the story went on it worked against itself, deteriorating until it didn't realize what it was saying anymore.

I don't see how Neji wasn't extremely kittening pissed off. He listened to and was ultimately convinced of this whole hard work trumps destiny spiel. He let it change and dictate the course of his entire life, creating a 180 shift in the course of his life which ended in his death at an extremely young age. When Naruto was completely full of s***. He was the son of the most gifted prodigy to ever be born in the ninja world. A man who was the strongest ninja in the world before he even hit the age of 25. And he was gifted an extremely powerful chakra beast by his mother. Everything in that fight favored Naruto over Neji since the day they were born. Neji had no chance and he was lied to and ultimately died to serve others as his destiny dictated, while Naruto took his seat at the highest position in the ninja world as his destiny dictated.

 

If Naruto wasn't a hypocrite towards Neji, Neji lives. I understand Neji grew to love Hinata but he wouldn't have if not for Naruto. Naruto was the architect of his demise.

Edited by DrK, 29 November 2017 - 07:57 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

 

NH really though is the franchise undermining it's roots, namely Naruto's development as a person.

 

 

The Last tries to say Naruto already had a bond despite all of this, a bond with the girl he thought was weird back in the academy. What's more, this bond is supposed to be the most important one of his life. Never mind that Hinata never helped Naruto through his troubled childhood, she is obsessed with being with him to the point she's more worried about a scarf than her sister, or that she fell in love with Naruto way before his development kicked in. Oh wait, The Last made Naruto appear to be selfish too in order to be with the selfish Hinata. This is the bond Naruto is supposed to spend the rest of his life with despite the fact the discovery of bonds is a major driving force of his character.

 

Another Retcon in the Last Retcon? Waaaah, i can't believe it! Jk, of course I can. The first time we ever see Naruto even mention Hinata its about how weird she is to him, if the movie is canon that entire comment from him just sounds like him being a kitten. But no surprise there since the entire movie DESTROYS the Naruto we thought we knew and turns him into a 100% to the max scumbag. 

[DrK]

Another Retcon in the Last Retcon? Waaaah, i can't believe it! Jk, of course I can. The first time we ever see Naruto even mention Hinata its about how weird she is to him, if the movie is canon that entire comment from him just sounds like him being a kitten. But no surprise there since the entire movie DESTROYS the Naruto we thought we knew and turns him into a 100% to the max scumbag. 

The story as written was not compatible with ending with NH. It literally doesn't work. You need thick ass pairing glasses for it to even seem normal. He MAYBE could have made Naruto not end with Sakura, if Sakura died or something, but he cannot end with Hinata. At least not after 698 chapters he can't.

Edited by DrK, 29 November 2017 - 08:27 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Well thats to be expected since in order for NH to happen everyone else in Naruto's life has to be negated so that she becomes the most important, central figure before disappearing into neigh obscurity after popping out a few brats for him to ignore. 

But "happy family." Amirite? Because man my dad used to ignore my mom all the time and prefer work to her company too. Oh and my dad also never spent time with my brother or me. 

Oh wait, none of those things are true. Even when my dad was OVER SEAS in WARZONES he somehow managed to make time for all of us  

[DrK]

Well thats to be expected since in order for NH to happen everyone else in Naruto's life has to be negated so that she becomes the most important, central figure before disappearing into neigh obscurity after popping out a few brats for him to ignore. 

But "happy family." Amirite? Because man my dad used to ignore my mom all the time and prefer work to her company too. Oh and my dad also never spent time with my brother or me. 

Oh wait, none of those things are true. Even when my dad was OVER SEAS in WARZONES he somehow managed to make time for all of us

You have something in common with our resident fact checker in terms of having a military family. The difference is that she said her dad would feel sympathetic towards Sasuke if she was Sakura. If that's not evidence that we are being trolled, I'm not sure what is.

Edited by DrK, 29 November 2017 - 08:40 PM.