105 replies to this topic

[Bail o' Lies]

 
After reading all of this....it makes me wonder...

What was the point of Sasuke at all? If everything just went nowhere and no moral or improvement was met....then why did Sasuke even exist outside of "because we needed a rival to copy DBZ?"

With everything you just posted and the logic of it all behind and what it lead to....

WHAT WAS THE POINT OF NARUTO THE STORY AT ALL?

Every character has become so.....pointless that it doesn't seem like this story should exist at all.

I just want to point out Yahagi was still involved with the manga at that point in time. So no, to anyone thinking "if only Yahagi was there," even if he was there through the rest of the manga this most likely would not have been fixed.

 

First, "In a good story the characters write the plot." Second, remember that analogy that Kishi gave that went something like "if a character originally like orange juice but he needs them to like apple juice he would rewrite the character to like apple juice," in order to explain to fans Sasuke change in personality (little did they all realize his actual story was removed long ago without them caring) after the ending? So going on with those two "thoughts" in mind, Kishimoto had a core plot he wanted to tell in part two that went something like; "Naruto and friends would fight the Akatsuki, they would defeat the Akatsuki, Sasuke at some point would kill Itachi, Naruto and Sasuke would have a final battle, Naruto would win that final battle, Sasuke would return to the village, then he would become a Hokage with his kid painting on the monument in the epilogue." So the characters needed to follow that path no matter want, but also need to adjust to his editor's desires with the natural follow of the characters' arcs a distant third concern (if that.) So when ever a character's arc went against that plot or his editors desires he had them changed.

 

Just looking at Team 7:

 

Sasuke had two goals at the start of the manga; Kill Itachi and restore his clan. I'm repeating myself for effect here. So once he killed Itachi he should first realized that revenge wasn't worth all he went through then had some personal introspection and revelations. Then after probably wandering around for a bit, he would have returned to the village on his own to work on his second goal of restoring his clan. But that cancelled out the final fight kishimoto wanted. So that had to be ignore, he was told the village was to blame so that he was stuck on avenger mode through the rest of the story -in order for kishi to get that final fight no matter what happens- with no true way of fixing it even by the ending. So Sasuke had to become a wanderer by the end, because no one could really believe he would settle down in the village after that change, but he needed to produce a kid for the next gen as well. Turning him also into an absentee father.

 

Sakura was to become a strong both as a ninja and a woman as well as fall in love with Naruto. Though their were some problems she was well on her path through part one and most of part two, until till the end of the Pein Arc. Where kishi's new editor told him Sakura was hated causing him to have second thoughts about her and eventually drop her as the heroine by the end. With her character arc completely abandon she was reverted back to what she was originally a Sasuke fangirl and nothing more then that. A housewife only fit to raise Sasuke's child by herself with no help from her former teammates, instead of the hokage's wife and head of the village's hospital.

 

Kakashi was the mentor that was suppose to guide the group then slowly fade into the background so by the end they are running the show while he looks on proudly. Instead he became too popular so kishimoto rarely wanted to use him. Then the anime team thought it would be cool if he was the hokage for their dream movie where hinata get everything they wanted to give her, making him take the role Naruto should have had at the epilogue's most crucial time.

 

Naruto, I think all of us have covered this multiple times, was suppose to be the greatest hokage. But kishi gave up and he became what he was in the end.

 

Any point was abandon along the way for one reason or another.

 

 

Also Boruto has the same problem from the first chapter alone. By showing us the fight between Bolt and Nail. We now know for sure their will be a fight. So the story must work towards that fight no matter what even if it doesn't work for their characters' arcs. Then again they pretty much made Salad into what ever they want seeing by the latest chapter.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 05 April 2017 - 09:11 AM.

[archangel]

 

 

^This basically sums up my thoughts.

 

I look at story/characters first, then I indulge myself with shipping, because I don't completely expect it to be at the center of the story unless it's a romance manga/anime. (However, I do try to look at different perspectives to get a better understanding of everything, including with couples. Shipping generally does't bother me, but it's something with NH & their fans that really tilts me the wrong way for some reason.)

 

Naruto's main goal was to become Hokage. And that's what the ending should have shown: Naruto being inducted as Hokage to cap off the series for good. Showing his wedding, something rather personal and opinionated, just left people with more questions than answers. His goal was not to get married (at least, to Hinata). It felt like they were still trying to convince people that yes, that Naruto really didn't have the guts to at least talk candidly to Sakura about his feelings that he's been lingering on about for most of his life throughout the manga in it's entirety, and instead went for second-best. The understanding, the secret gazes. It indeed felt like he really gave up and didn't try at all; just so many things left unsaid, it's really sad. And they want to tell me that this boy doesn't know the meaning of love, after all the people he's met in his life and all that he's been through? Obito, Tsunade, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Iruka, his friends, his teammates, his parents. Please.

 

Nevertheless, I truly didn't want anyone to end up together in canon cause I knew it would absolutely ruin the fanbase. Had NaruSaku been canon, they'd never hear the end of it from people who don't like it, like what's happening now with NH & SS. What a disaster.

I understand that and I totally agree with the part that no matter who end up with who, the fanbase would be hurt. Some people would have been unhappy. However, the way things were handle, they screw the Narusaku fanbase, the Naruto fanbase in general since the pairing they went with aren't fully resolve and one really make no sense (Sakura with Sasuke). Even the NH and SS fanbase lose some of their follower after that, because either they realize that the overall story suffer from it or that they didn't validate their argument at all. Like the fact that the Last exist show that NH didn't have any ground to begin with( especially when Hinata get to have a backstory similar to Sakura (being bullied because of a body part, Sakura case her forehead, Hinata her eyes)). Even some are ready to admit that it makes no sense, since Hinata was the heiress of the Hyuga clan, nobody should dare tried to lay a finger on her for that reason and the Hyuga is a well respected clan in the leaf, so no one would make fun of them because of that.

 

The problem with this manga is and why I believe they should have stick with Naruto and Sakura in the canon is that the story is about Naruto. He's the main character. In Dragon Ball, Goku is almost like asexual (almost confirmed in Super lol) so I don't really care with who he was gonna ended up with. In one piece, Luffy is on the same boat. Somehow, I believe Nami should be the one, but it doesn't matter who or if he will ended up with at the end of the manga. Because it never was about that either. With Naruto, it was established since the  beginning that he wants to win over Sakura. It was heavily implied during the whole story. The motto of the main protagonist is never give up. He was one conversation away of being with her. That's my main problem with Naruto. Even if it is a Shonen manga, that love interest become a part of it as soon as Naruto show an interest for Sakura. They could have kill it in part one but instead, he keep dropping hint during the whole story ( war arc included) to come up with the worst excuse ever. It was a red herring. Acknowledging that yes, those were legitimate hint (which pissed off some NH and SS fan because those prove to be development) only to mislead the reader the whole story (which kind of pissed off anyone now).

 

With the development and all. NS doesn't really need that big wedding moment. The manga should have focused on the moment where Naruto become Hokage, something like the pain ending arc deliver. When he gain the respect of everyone in the village, the hug from Sakura, his friend throwing him up in the air and that panel with Iruka, his first teacher who saw where he was coming from. That was perfect. It only need an Hokage speech there. That scene was better than the current manga ending, because we mustn't forget that Hokage is only a title. The real goal is why Naruto wants to be Hokage. That was to gain the respect of everyone in the village, which he won after that battle.

 

More than 2 years latter and I rant about it still. Sorry about that :)

Edited by archangel, 07 April 2017 - 08:11 AM.

[archangel]

^{As for Boruto the anime, manga or anything related, here's my thought.}

^{It's just doesn't exist so chapter 699-700. It broke me lol.}

Edited by archangel, 05 April 2017 - 11:00 AM.

[Phantom_999]

 
After reading all of this....it makes me wonder...

What was the point of Sasuke at all? If everything just went nowhere and no moral or improvement was met....then why did Sasuke even exist outside of "because we needed a rival to copy DBZ?"

With everything you just posted and the logic of it all behind and what it lead to....

WHAT WAS THE POINT OF NARUTO THE STORY AT ALL?

Every character has become so.....pointless that it doesn't seem like this story should exist at all.

 

I felt that way for a while even before chapter 700. I say 700 because this fanfic nightmare hasn't ended yet

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Here's hoping the anime does so BAD that Pierot gets the lowest of ratings in history leaving them with no choice but to cancel the series or they will go bankrupt.

I actually think there MIGHT be a slight chance of the Boruto anime not doing at least anywhere near as well as SP hopes, primarily because it's being put up against Season 2 of both Shingeki no Kyojin / Attack on Titan AND Boku no Hero Academia this season.

[Bail o' Lies]

Well the first episode of Boruto is out.

[BlueStarSaber]

I just want to point out Yahagi was still involved with the manga at that point in time. So no, to anyone thinking "if only Yahagi was there," even if he was there through the rest of the manga this most likely would not have been fixed.

 

First, "In a good story the characters write the plot." Second, remember that analogy that Kishi gave that went something like "if a character originally like orange juice but he needs them to like apple juice he would rewrite the character to like apple juice," in order to explain to fans Sasuke change in personality (little did they all realize his actual story was removed long ago without them caring) after the ending? So going on with those two "thoughts" in mind, Kishimoto had a core plot he wanted to tell in part two that went something like; "Naruto and friends would fight the Akatsuki, they would defeat the Akatsuki, Sasuke at some point would kill Itachi, Naruto and Sasuke would have a final battle, Naruto would win that final battle, Sasuke would return to the village, then he would become a Hokage with his kid painting on the monument in the epilogue." So the characters needed to follow that path no matter want, but also need to adjust to his editor's desires with the natural follow of the characters' arcs a distant third concern (if that.) So when ever a character's arc went against that plot or his editors desires he had them changed.

 

Just looking at Team 7:

 

Sasuke had two goals at the start of the manga; Kill Itachi and restore his clan. I'm repeating myself for effect here. So once he killed Itachi he should first realized that revenge wasn't worth all he went through then had some personal introspection and revelations. Then after probably wandering around for a bit, he would have returned to the village on his own to work on his second goal of restoring his clan. But that cancelled out the final fight kishimoto wanted. So that had to be ignore, he was told the village was to blame so that he was stuck on avenger mode through the rest of the story -in order for kishi to get that final fight no matter what happens- with no true way of fixing it even by the ending. So Sasuke had to become a wanderer by the end, because no one could really believe he would settle down in the village after that change, but he needed to produce a kid for the next gen as well. Turning him also into an absentee father.

 

Sakura was to become a strong both as a ninja and a woman as well as fall in love with Naruto. Though their were some problems she was well on her path through part one and most of part two, until till the end of the Pein Arc. Where kishi's new editor told him Sakura was hated causing him to have second thoughts about her and eventually drop her as the heroine by the end. With her character arc completely abandon she was reverted back to what she was originally a Sasuke fangirl and nothing more then that. A housewife only fit to raise Sasuke's child by herself with no help from her former teammates, instead of the hokage's wife and head of the village's hospital.

 

Kakashi was the mentor that was suppose to guide the group then slowly fade into the background so by the end they are running the show while he looks on proudly. Instead he became too popular so kishimoto rarely wanted to use him. Then the anime team thought it would be cool if he was the hokage for their dream movie where hinata get everything they wanted to give her, making him take the role Naruto should have had at the epilogue's most crucial time.

 

Naruto, I think all of us have covered this multiple times, was suppose to be the greatest hokage. But kishi gave up and he became what he was in the end.

 

Any point was abandon along the way for one reason or another.

 

 

Also Boruto has the same problem from the first chapter alone. By showing us the fight between Bolt and Nail. We now know for sure their will be a fight. So the story must work towards that fight no matter what even if it doesn't work for their characters' arcs. Then again they pretty much made Salad into what ever they want seeing by the latest chapter.

I do recall an editor saying Tsunade should not fight Pain and have Naruto do it all by himself, I wonder if its Yahagi?

This doesn't surprise, given how messy the Kage arc was to make the 4th great ninja war be the 5 nations against Akatsuki when clearly the 5 nations shouldn't be able to get along that well and the Akatsuki plan changed from using wars to their advantage to big genjutsu to control the world. If a plot point conflicts with a character arc you ether droup and change it to something else or edit it so it does not conflict with the characters natural progression. 

Honestly I think the Itachi revelations could work, but as long as Itachi is not protrayed as some saint who loves his brother and is loyal to kohona, because that honestly felt forced given previous interactions Itachi had with Sasuke, Kohona and those involved in the massacre. If it should happen Sasuke's next move should be about finding our if its true or not (be it hunting root agents or Kabuto) and when he does have fight Naruto before he can do any really bad things that could get him executed then work with Naruto and his friends to take down what's left Akatsuki, with him probably the one to take down Danzo along the way finaly avaging his clan and rid the biggest darkness within kohona allowing change to finally happen in the leaf.

If Kishimoto gave a damn at all with regards to Sakura he should of looked into why certain fans hated Sakura in the west, which of course was mostly her feelings for Sasuke or that she hardly got any action despite being the main female lead. Or if not that look into what people did like about the character, which with the 3rd databook indicated fans loved seeing her fight and grow as a character as her fight with Sasori was voted 3rd with 107 votes behind Sasuke's fights with Dedira and Itachi with a quote by a fan quoting 'I'm amazed at Sakura's growth", Heck even western critics loved the fight.

 

Kishimoto should honestly not be concerned if a one of his other main or side characters is more popular than the main character as you don't just replace them for that reason alone, otherwise Han Solo would of replaced Luke Skywalker as the Hero for the rest of the OT regardless even though it doesn't make sense. There was no need not to cut Kakshi's screen time. heck I'd even say it damaged later events because of it, best case being Obito. Now while many have mixed feelings of Obito being the masked man I think was always planned and made the most sense narritive wise as this was a character personally connected to most of the main cast: Kakashi because they were teamates and that this was the friend he'd honor base his ideals on, Sasuke because of kinship and Naruto because they are alike and that Obito trained under his father. Therefor making the eventual conflict all the more personal for the characters, as Kakashi would have to face what his comrade had become, Naruto would face someone who have personally affected, who is close to his teacher and father and one who shared the same dreams and ideals , Sasuke that another member of his clan killed their kinsmen and Sakura while having no personal conection will feel how it effected her teammates. But the problem was it when it was shown that tobi was Obito as everything about him was rushed or dragged out too long when it could of been natural told if Kakshi gave more insight of his past to his students of who his teammates were and their goals.

That and he became a horrible father, seriously what is it with spin offs and squels making the characters become problematic parents?

It also put up a no win situation; if Naruto is dead fans will be upset, if he is alive fans will be angry for them tricking them with false hype.
 

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 05 April 2017 - 06:45 PM.

[LuckyChi7]

I'll say this episode was okay at best, 

 

 

link if anyone wants to watch it: http://www3.naruspot...ruto-episode-1/

 

 

 

My review: 

 

 

 

 

I think i might just go in and check it for you guys on what exactly goes down in the series similar to what catsi563 used to do only for me it'll be more in the form of a youtube review, but for i fully commit to that I need to give it one more episode since the Academy stuff begins next week. Then I'll decide if I'm actually willing to do this.

 

 

The other reason why I'm might consider to continue to watch it is cause the anime director,  Noriyuki Abe who did the animes for Yu-Yu Hakusho and Bleach is the one whose gonna handle how the anime will go for Boruto so i'm curious what he'll do. I'm not saying that I want Boruto to succeed don't get that impression, but more so how he's gonna handle it since so far everything he's handled has been good. I mean with this episode it was okay,, just nothing too grand like he did with Bleach or Yu-Yu Hakusho's first episode.. then again it is a slice of life type of anime so I guess it works in its own way since they plan on making it different from Naruto. 

 

 

 

 

The episode did start with the Kawaki vs Boruto fight just like the manga, but the big difference is that the anime jumped back to before Boruto entered the academy instead of recaping the damn movie like the manga did. 

 

So I'll give the anime a plus for that over the manga. 

[Bail o' Lies]

I do recall an editor saying Tsunade should not fight Pain and have Naruto do it all by himself, I wonder if its Yahagi?

This doesn't surprise, given how messy the Kage arc was to make the 4th great ninja war be the 5 nations against Akatsuki when clearly the 5 nations shouldn't be able to get along that well and the Akatsuki plan changed from using wars to their advantage to big genjutsu to control the world. If a plot point conflicts with a character arc you ether droup and change it to something else or edit it so it does not conflict with the characters natural progression. 

Honestly I think the Itachi revelations could work, but as long as Itachi is not protrayed as some saint who loves his brother and is loyal to kohona, because that honestly felt forced given previous interactions Itachi had with Sasuke, Kohona and those involved in the massacre. If it should happen Sasuke's next move should be about finding our if its true or not (be it hunting root agents or Kabuto) and when he does have fight Naruto before he can do any really bad things that could get him executed then work with Naruto and his friends to take down what's left Akatsuki, with him probably the one to take down Danzo along the way finaly avaging his clan and rid the biggest darkness within kohona allowing change to finally happen in the leaf.

If Kishimoto gave a damn at all with regards to Sakura he should of looked into why certain fans hated Sakura in the west, which of course was mostly her feelings for Sasuke or that she hardly got any action despite being the main female lead. Or if not that look into what people did like about the character, which with the 3rd databook indicated fans loved seeing her fight and grow as a character as her fight with Sasori was voted 3rd with 107 votes behind Sasuke's fights with Dedira and Itachi with a quote by a fan quoting 'I'm amazed at Sakura's growth", Heck even western critics loved the fight.

 

Kishimoto should honestly not be concerned if a one of his other main or side characters is more popular than the main character as you don't just replace them for that reason alone, otherwise Han Solo would of replaced Luke Skywalker as the Hero for the rest of the OT regardless even though it doesn't make sense. There was no need not to cut Kakshi's screen time. heck I'd even say it damaged later events because of it, best case being Obito. Now while many have mixed feelings of Obito being the masked man I think was always planned and made the most sense narritive wise as this was a character personally connected to most of the main cast: Kakashi because they were teamates and that this was the friend he'd honor base his ideals on, Sasuke because of kinship and Naruto because they are alike and that Obito trained under his father. Therefor making the eventual conflict all the more personal for the characters, as Kakashi would have to face what his comrade had become, Naruto would face someone who have personally affected, who is close to his teacher and father and one who shared the same dreams and ideals , Sasuke that another member of his clan killed their kinsmen and Sakura while having no personal conection will feel how it effected her teammates. But the problem was it when it was shown that tobi was Obito as everything about him was rushed or dragged out too long when it could of been natural told if Kakshi gave more insight of his past to his students of who his teammates were and their goals.

That and he became a horrible father, seriously what is it with spin offs and sequels making the characters become problematic parents?

It also put up a no win situation; if Naruto is dead fans will be upset, if he is alive fans will be angry for them tricking them with false hype.
 

No Yahagi left after the end of the Hunt for Itachi arc after Sasuke got his upgrade for eyes and changed the team name to hawk. So that was the editor that told him to have hinata intervene in the fight and then said Hinata is now the heroine. Which kishi did fight against.

 

Kishi got his understanding of the west from his editors showing him youtube reviews by nH fans such as double anime sawyer and foreverworld. You can image how accurate that actually was.

 

 

 

Lucky I put a summary back in the anime discussion topic. It was better then the manga, then again anything is better then that thing. The overall animation was good even hinata while given her usual shine didn't stand out as much as they usually do because every seem to have the same level of quality in the episode instead of the old hinata looks great and everything else look like kitten. So I will credit your director with that. There were retcons but I think those were made before the new writer took over. The fact that Bolt has his byakugan in his right eye from the beginning is very cheep. But then again I was not expecting any better story from the manga.

[Namikaze Clan]

First episode revealed that Boruto has the Tenseigan like Toneri. And that was while he was still a academy student

[Bail o' Lies]

First episode revealed that Boruto has the Tenseigan like Toneri. And that was while he was still a academy student

He not even an academy student yet at he end of the episode he is enrolled. He also knows the shadow clones jutsu. Also he like eleven when he father was in the academy since he was at least six.

[totherpage95]

First episode revealed that Boruto has the Tenseigan like Toneri. And that was while he was still a academy student

i kinda skimmed it personally i hate it so can't watch the whole thing but i think its weird boruto knows shadow clone jutsu and dojutsu before he is even in the academy

[T XD]

Lucky for Boruto and Sarada comparing to Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura. High level techniques and abilities handed without any hard work since they're young.

[totherpage95]

as far as openings go my favorites had to be Blue Bird,  Sign,  Diver, Daisuke, Guren, Silhouette.

 

 

That's about it for me, I kinda dropped the anime after the whole Obito and Naruto tnj sense it was around the time when the manga ended.

 

 

But I came back for the final episode cause I felt like I had been with it for so long that despite dropping it, I gave the anime that much just watch the final episode and see how it goes. Boy what a disapointment..

 

 

Wait I just realized they teased Hokage Naruto in the last opening for shippuden... What the hell?? and they didn't even bother to show him such bs!

 

That aside since the boruto anime is about to start,  Why don't we all take a trip down memory lane via openings:

 

 

if you want to listen to the openings some of them are on internet archive:  https://archive.org/...000&tab=uploads

[Namikaze Clan]

I'm surprised Boruto still has the dojutsu as an adult despite having a scar on his eyelid

[totherpage95]

 

the fact the best thing from the final naruto arc is orochimaru kills me

[TouKen4Life3g]

I'm surprised Boruto still has the dojutsu as an adult despite having a scar on his eyelid

It must be so god like that Kawaki (assuming) slice it off but it didn't end that eye.

[Kirito]

Haha stop watching the anime after the war was over. Now im just scouring the fanfiction website. I absolutely refuse the acknowlegde that kind of ending. 

[Toy Ninja]

That and he became a horrible father, seriously what is it with spin offs and squels making the characters become problematic parents?
 

 

I think some manga artists draw from real experience.. Or that it sort of affects the way they write about this subject. If their manga becomes super popular then they tend to be really busy for years on end. If they marry and have kids then they don’t have time to spend with their kids and can end up being hated.

 

I don’t know or anything but.. i wouldn’t be surprised if Kishimoto has a difficult relationship with his son.

 

It makes me think about the last volume of Rurouni Kenshin, where Kenshin's cute little son Kenji seems to resent his father, and is described in the end notes as growing up to be twisted. 

[VoodooFX]

 

I think some manga artists draw from real experience.. Or that it sort of affects the way they write about this subject. If their manga becomes super popular then they tend to be really busy for years on end. If they marry and have kids then they don’t have time to spend with their kids and can end up being hated.

 

I don’t know or anything but.. i wouldn’t be surprised if Kishimoto has a difficult relationship with his son.

 

It makes me think about the last volume of Rurouni Kenshin, where Kenshin's cute little son Kenji seems to resent his father, and is described in the end notes as growing up to be twisted. 

This was the case with Kishi as well, no question about it.

I remember an interview where he said that becoming a father changed him so much, he wanted Naruto to meet his parents, which was not the plan when he started writing the story.