59 replies to this topic

[catsi563]

I think theres also a failure to udnerstand Sakuras role in the manga from a fans persepctive.

Sakura is supposed to be the Fan insert character. She the normal one in eveyr respect, the one with no special backgrounds or tragedies in her past, with normal parents and a normal life, normal pressures for a normal teenage girl. Even her parents when we finaly meet them are normal for the most part who hasnt had their dad be goofy, and their mom be stern with them. Dads are for fun but mommys mean business.

All in all we the audience are supposed to see the story from Sakuras perspective. But so many people have latched onto Hinata for some reason I can barely fathom that Sakura has become a boogeyman to them.

[Derock]

Japan likes their tsunderes. But people from other countries might just think they're irritating.

I don't think that's the issue.

From what I seen over the past few years of following this series, in terms of pairings, the "bad boy image" and "shy girl" tropes play in mind. The former gets a lot of attention because we had seen this in various Western media. Not to mention Sasuke is a major character for this series, who follow this trope (even though he's flipping goals/personalities to a degree that it need to stop) So that's the nipstick for SasuSaku.

NaruHina, however, is a different story. Not only we have a shy girl, but she has big boobs with a personality that is very consider as submissive. From this day, I still don't understand how on earth Hinata, a minor character, gains popularity that skyrocketed to the heavens while Sakura, the major female of the series, get very bad credit to the point she doesn't even deserve it from the audience. The only minor anime character that I know that had kind of popularity is Android 18 from the Dragonball series, but her case was different. Her popularity increased because she was the only female that kept up with all of the male fighters (remember, DBZ was definitely a sausage-fest action-fighting series), while the rest such as Bulma and Chi-Chi were not in the battlefield, they were supports.

On top of that, since this was Kishimoto's fault of adding in that love-polygon, many fans almost consider this some sort of ongoing Western comic book or a soap opera because of the potential romance at the time. Knowing a girl with big-boobs, a "submissive" popularity, has the moe-factor on her and is in "love" with the titular character somehow gain many of these fans' attention. But her importance and effectiveness in the series is considered low. Never in my life that a support character gain that much love but never consider the fact that said character hadn't done anything major if anyone write the series' synopsis. (but then again, this also applies to Iruka in Japan because his popularity is ALSO high, despite the fact he's a minor character as well; however he HAS a connection with Naruto)

And to the point of tsunderes, I don't think that is it because Sakura is very tamed for that trope. She doesn't hit Naruto EVERY single moment they appeared together, even in fillers. Compare that to the ones many people who had watched other anime in the past who has tsunderes such as Akane from Ramna 1/2 and Naru from Love Hina. (Off-topic: I didn't even watch those animes at the time, the older members told me this). I don't know if we have fans have that doesn't know slapstick comedy or doesn't understand the concept. And I don't know if that's true because there ARE western-version of tsunderes everywhere. Hell, there is one popular person that is pure tsundere in the West and she is a well-known "celebrity":



(If anyone wants more videos of this tsundere, I will post more to show you why she's the Queen of Western Tsunderes!)

[redragon88]

I dont think so i think it's more connected to SS, since it has the biggest fanbase on Japan, SS scored the first while NS was second place.( that poll which is old)

About Tsunderes, recently we had a pool of best heroine on mangas/anime, and the character who won was Rei from Evangelion, Sakura from Naruto didnt get a single vote, Rei isnt even a tsundere and she's not even an heroine she was the cause of the destruction of the world btw in contrast to the "heroine" which is a Tsundere.

last year there was a poll about whose heroines the Japanese guys think we foreigners would like.

http://cobs.jp/enque...13/01/19_3.html
Source.
http://www.ricedigit...-we-would-like/
English.

Sakura inst even noticed.

And finnaly on NHK's best heroine poll

http://www.animenews...sults-announced

Also no Sakura.( On this year)

I don't really see what's your point. I don't see any Naruto character in there either so the problem lies in just not preferring Naruto's characters as the best when compared to other animes.

And seriously, how many times are people going to bring up that stupid pairing poll. We don't even know who made it, and Kakashi X Iruka is the pairing that took first place. I refuse to accept that the opinion of the general Naruto fan is to have freaking fantasies of Kakashi and Iruka doing the nasty. No, just don't. Let that stupid poll go, please.

And by the way, I noticed that there are some tsunderes ranking high in those polls. Maybe you just didn't know they were tsunderes. Japan does likes their tsunderes.

[Inferno180]

I dont think so i think it's more connected to SS, since it has the biggest fanbase on Japan, SS scored the first while NS was second place.( that poll which is old)

About Tsunderes, recently we had a pool of best heroine on mangas/anime, and the character who won was Rei from Evangelion, Sakura from Naruto didnt get a single vote, Rei isnt even a tsundere and she's not even an heroine she was the cause of the destruction of the world btw in contrast to the "heroine" which is a Tsundere.

last year there was a poll about whose heroines the Japanese guys think we foreigners would like.

http://cobs.jp/enque...13/01/19_3.html
Source.
http://www.ricedigit...-we-would-like/
English.

Sakura inst even noticed.

And finnaly on NHK's best heroine poll

http://www.animenews...sults-announced

Also no Sakura.( On this year)

Hey it could have been worse, imagine if Hinata was on the list! That would show people clearly don't know the difference between a main and a minor character.

[Jenskott]

About Tsunderes, recently we had a pool of best heroine on mangas/anime, and the character who won was Rei from Evangelion, Sakura from Naruto didnt get a single vote, Rei isnt even a tsundere and she's not even an heroine she was the cause of the destruction of the world btw in contrast to the "heroine" which is a Tsundere

Who is that "we" you are refering to? I am sorry, but I am not sure what you are talking about. This site did a pool? Or are you talking about somewhere else?

Anyway, regarding Rei (heh. Alliteration)... If I had to include an Evangelion character in a "Best manga or anime heroine" List I would choose Asuka or Misato. But Rei? No way. I shall NEVER understand why that character is so popular (although the cynical on me has several -unflattering- theories on the subject). I do not hate her (I do not hate or bash fictional characters. It feels like a waste of time and energy), but she always came across me like yawn-inducing boring and creepy. And what you know, the character's creator openly stated that he did not understand her popularity either, since she was meant to be nothing else than a creepy girl that freaked the audience out.

Anyway, regarding the topic, I think we are putting too weigh on online pools. How much people reads or watches a series and purchases merchandise? How of them are active members of forums? And we are to consider that a pool on a random board or blog is a good indicative of what the fandom generally thinks?

I do not think so.

Mind in mind that you have to be careful about magazine pools, too. I remember a certain Blade of Inmortal character popularity pool where a secondary character won because a single fan sent dozens of postcards.

However, if we go with pools, Sakura usually is more popular than Hinata in Japan.

Why is that? Well, I think Japanese fans understand better the tsundere trope.

Anyway, I have observed that the number of people hates and bashes tsunderes in a fandom tends to increase after several years. Or that, or most of fans leave, and only a few remain. Thus, it looks like there are more trolls, haters and bashers because most of the saner members have left and the haters are even louder in the silence (and sadly, they are heard more loudly by newer members who are persuaded to their side, increasing their numbers).

Or maybe it is that the trope is not so popular like it used in the past century.

[Torxe]

found this page on the wiki not sure how accurate it is though:
http://naruto.wikia....opularity_Polls

[Phantom_999]

I think It's Accurate.

[FoolishYoungling]

I think It's Accurate.

I don't get it. How is Kakashi and Iruka and even Deidara outscoring Naruto and Sasuke in some of those polls? Wouldn't be surprised if they were voted on by random people who don't watch/read Naruto at all.

Edited by FoolishYoungling , 14 May 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[redragon88]

I don't get it. How is Kakashi and Iruka and even Deidara outscoring Naruto and Sasuke in some of those polls? Wouldn't be surprised if they were voted on by random people who don't watch/read Naruto at all.

Well, it seems that in popularity polls the fans can send as much votes as they want so it's not that accurate regarding complete general opinion.

Seems like popularity polls are just fun contests that the manga magazines like doing from time to time. It won't influence how a character will be used in a story.

[Verilance]

I don't get it. How is Kakashi and Iruka and even Deidara outscoring Naruto and Sasuke in some of those polls?

because the Fujoshi vote is the most important type of vote in polls like this... they, like in Chicago elections vote early and vote often

Edited by Verilance, 14 May 2013 - 10:49 PM.

[Canadian_DJ]

I dont care whether sakura is on that list or not, all im concerned about is that naruto fanbase in japan and what they think of sakura, as long as sakura is the mkst popular female in the series and the female lead, thats all that matters.

[Phantom_999]

Fair enough, dude. But it is a bit self contradictory, because it is called a popularity poll. It defines the popularity of the characters more or less. Then again If you add up the total amount of votes then maybe Sakura beats out Hinata cause she always places in the top section of the polls every time I think while Hinata only got more votes than her twice. That said, Sakura is pretty well loved in Japan, Hinata, not really. In fact, lots of characters in the series have reversal fandoms between east and west. For instance Sai is apparently more favored in the west than in the East, Especially in Japan, whereas Sasuke has the opposite effect.

I don't get it. How is Kakashi and Iruka and even Deidara outscoring Naruto and Sasuke in some of those polls? Wouldn't be surprised if they were voted on by random people who don't watch/read Naruto at all.

Uhh, Can't really confirm the mentality on that. I could guess, but that is it. Iruka, probably is on this list beecause MANY MANY MANY fans ship him with Kakashi. This is the most popular pairing among the Japanese fandom. No I am not exaggerating, Yaoi pairings are actually more popular than hetero pairings. But, NS is one of the most popular Hetero pairings in Japan I'll have you know. NH is several places below it. Deidara was probably just a huge hit during his introduction, but I don't see him placing as high after that fourth poll.

Edited by Phantom_999, 17 May 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[kidNinja]

Kishi has already proven that popularity doesn't affect the story pairing-wise. We have never seen Iruka and Kakashi gettin it on or even being remotely hinted at being homosexual unlike Haku,Zabuza and perhaps Sai. (Both of whom are clearly typical perverted straight men)

[Phantom_999]

Yeah I know that. I never said populartiy decided anything. Just pointing out the statistics.

[Mistraal]

Sakura is actually QUITE Popular in Japan. She always places high on popularity polls and they always make Sakura merchandise. It is only in the west that she is hated because of cultural differences. The west do not understand nor appreciate the concept of tsunderes and probably her "going for the bad boy" kind of ticked off many female fans

This really blows my mind because Sakura has a lot in common with a lot of tsundere characters that have found a wide fanbase in the West but for some reason when Sakura follows this MO they hate her. I'm really trying to understand this. Rei from Sailor Moon, Kallen from Code Geass, even other characters in Naruto display this quality and don't garner a fraction of the hate. I really don't understand where it comes from.

I think theres also a failure to udnerstand Sakuras role in the manga from a fans persepctive.

Sakura is supposed to be the Fan insert character. She the normal one in eveyr respect, the one with no special backgrounds or tragedies in her past, with normal parents and a normal life, normal pressures for a normal teenage girl. Even her parents when we finaly meet them are normal for the most part who hasnt had their dad be goofy, and their mom be stern with them. Dads are for fun but mommys mean business.

If this was Kishi's intention then he bombed HARD on implementation.

For a good blueprint of this type of female character look no further than Miaka of Fushigi Yuugi or Bella from Twilight. Miaka sole existence is that of a cipher and love interest. Same thing with Bella. They are expertly crafted to be as unobtrusive as possible with little to no personality and their only drive is their man. Sakura blows this to hell right off the bat with being Tsundere. Inner Sakura also ruins this. Also the pairing is off. Sasuke should be chasing her and she should be in a mutual relationship with Naruto with slight feelings for Sasuke. If she had not been in Part 1 and only Part 2 and NOT a tsundere....I could maybe see it. This might sound funny but she just has too much personality to be a cipher and not ENOUGH personality to be a strong female lead. She wavers right in the middle.

Edited by Mistraal, 21 May 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Nefertieh]

Polls are not the statistically accurate. That's why reputable scientific studies never ever use them.

In that sense, if the question was "Is Sakura more popular than Hinata in Japan?" cannot be answered by polls. All of the participants are voters who bought that issue of WSJ and filled out the form. They are not random Japanese people, and therefore the results do not represent the entirety of Japan.

I personally feel that Hinata is more popular in Japan, but on the other hand, Sakura is also less hated. Kishimoto himself mentioned that fans bring up Hinata, when the heroine is supposed to be Sakura.

Another thing I've noticed is that while tsunderes are popular, Sakura is not the textbook definition of a tsundere. She fangirls around Sasuke, and she is not very cold to the people around her. Hinata, on the other hand, is about as textbook as you can get.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Polls are not the statistically accurate. That's why reputable scientific studies never ever use them.

In that sense, if the question was "Is Sakura more popular than Hinata in Japan?" cannot be answered by polls. All of the participants are voters who bought that issue of WSJ and filled out the form. They are not random Japanese people, and therefore the results do not represent the entirety of Japan.

I personally feel that Hinata is more popular in Japan, but on the other hand, Sakura is also less hated. Kishimoto himself mentioned that fans bring up Hinata, when the heroine is supposed to be Sakura.

Another thing I've noticed is that while tsunderes are popular, Sakura is not the textbook definition of a tsundere. She fangirls around Sasuke, and she is not very cold to the people around her. Hinata, on the other hand, is about as textbook as you can get.

I don't necessarily think that Hinata is the more popular one...I think her fans are the most vocal.

Something very similar to what we have here in the west ( unfortunately.) It doesn't matter how many people you have or don't have, if your half of the room is whispering while the opponent is screaming at the top of their lungs in a chorus, of course they'll be heard more often. 

It's already been addresses that Hinata fan's are generally EXTREMELY vocal about their feelings i believe, which is probably why Kishimoto makes such a big point of making sure people realize Sakura is not Hinata, and that's all there is to it. 

[ladyannelise]

i really don't care if Sakura is more popular than Hinata in Japan or vice versa, all i know is that i love how Kishi portrayed Sakura. I've read that she has a lot of haters which i will never understand,.. i mean, look at her now, she's standing between the two monsters who got superior bloodline up their sleeves, plus she is way above the other shinobis who has the same advantage as the power two,. and all of that came from pure hardwork., not only that, she's one of the best medics in the Narutoverse..

well, going back to the topic at hand, i believe that NaruSaku events were held in Japan and another one will happen late this year, since Sakura is part of the tandem NaruSaku, i guess that pretty much answer this question,... besides, after what Kishi is making his Heroine do this past few chapters, I dont see whyshe wont be more popular... and Kishi is just starting on her, remember she hasnt even released the full capacity of that seal..

anyway, Japan is Japan, they have a different culture.., is Sakura a tsundere or not? depends on how an individual view it.. i love manga, i love anime and i know a tsundere when i see one based on what i've seen but then again, to each his own..

[Nefertieh]

i really don't care if Sakura is more popular than Hinata in Japan or vice versa, all i know is that i love how Kishi portrayed Sakura. I've read that she has a lot of haters which i will never understand,.. i mean, look at her now, she's standing between the two monsters who got superior bloodline up their sleeves, plus she is way above the other shinobis who has the same advantage as the power two,. and all of that came from pure hardwork., not only that, she's one of the best medics in the Narutoverse..

well, going back to the topic at hand, i believe that NaruSaku events were held in Japan and another one will happen late this year, since Sakura is part of the tandem NaruSaku, i guess that pretty much answer this question,... besides, after what Kishi is making his Heroine do this past few chapters, I dont see whyshe wont be more popular... and Kishi is just starting on her, remember she hasnt even released the full capacity of that seal..

 

Actually, before the first fan-organized narusaku events were held, there were already sasusaku and narusasu events. The pairing itself doesn't mean the pairing is necessarily popular, just that there is enough people bothered to finance it.

 

I don't think people dislike Sakura because of her lack of bloodlines, but because she was a fangirl who's main aspiration was a man.

 

anyway, Japan is Japan, they have a different culture.., is Sakura a tsundere or not? depends on how an individual view it.. i love manga, i love anime and i know a tsundere when i see one based on what i've seen but then again, to each his own..

 

This is what TVtropes defined as a tsundere:

 

Yes. So. The Japanese term tsundere refers to a character who "runs hot and cold", alternating between two distinct moods: tsuntsun (aloof or irritable) and deredere (lovestruck). The term was originally used to describe characters who began with a harsh outgoing personality, but slowly revealed a soft and vulnerable interior over time. Over the years the character archetype has become flanderized, and is now generically associated with a character who flips between the two emotional states at the slightest provocation.

 

So I wouldn't say Sakura is a textbook tsundere. She acts differently and inconsistently depending on the person.

 

 

I don't necessarily think that Hinata is the more popular one...I think her fans are the most vocal.

Something very similar to what we have here in the west ( unfortunately.) It doesn't matter how many people you have or don't have, if your half of the room is whispering while the opponent is screaming at the top of their lungs in a chorus, of course they'll be heard more often. 

It's already been addresses that Hinata fan's are generally EXTREMELY vocal about their feelings i believe, which is probably why Kishimoto makes such a big point of making sure people realize Sakura is not Hinata, and that's all there is to it. 

 

Well, I'm sure there is some weight to that theory, but it's a lot harder to prove. The thing is, you can't tell the difference between a vocal minority and a vocal majority. Suffice to say, Hinata has a very large fanbase for a minor character.

 

It's the most ironic thing to see the most quiet character in the series with the most vocal fanbase. I suppose fanfics are to blame.

Edited by Nefertieh, 06 June 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Atheck]

Concerning Hinata's likability it has its attributes which I can understand but also there are various imperfections that plague her characterization. The most notable of which being her single-minded fixation on the protagonist without even a single iota of interest in the well being or opinions of individuals who should hold a greater amount of importance in her life like her teammates expressed. Why are her mental expressions related only to Naruto? Is her romantic and philosophical dedication to him so powerful that it deprives the life out of any psychological acknowledgement of the other aspects of her life?

 

It's difficult to understand why people would admire her personality when the obsessive one-dimensionality of her perspective haunts her like an apparition. Any positive characteristics are just overshadowed by her flaws.

 

Sakura does or at least did have a few irritable moments to her character but she did manage to progress beyond those emotional inhibitions and become a strong, capable woman. Kishimoto has emphasized this aspect throughout all of P2 with her desire to stand alongside her teammates and her ever strengthening relationship with Naruto. Do fans only look at the prepubescent worshiper that she was in P1? Or is it because they just outright refuse to offer Sakura the benefit of the doubt? If nothing else they could at least hold other characters who exhibit those qualities to the same standard. I eagerly await to see them offer criticisms relating Ino or Karin's character.

 

That tangent aside, Sakura appears to have been the more popular female character of the two for the majority of the manga. It was only in one of the recent polls that Hinata temporarily overtook that position but with Sakura's ever increasing importance in the story that will likely change.