147 replies to this topic

[Phantom_999]

What I'd like to know is where this obsession with Hinata even came from with SP. She was never that interesting and she didn't appear for at least a year or two into the manga. She got her ass handed to her by Neji, then disappeared until Shippuden if I recall correctly. 

 

Good question. I'm not even sure what the answer is. I can only give assumptions. As I've said countless times Hinata's personality type is sort of ideal in Japan, shy, timid  and unassertive etc. etc. But there are many other characters with her type of personality in many other manga and anime. My guess is a two fold whammy that lead to her popularity. I will always mention this point, the difference between Hinata and other shy girls from other series has nothing to do with her at all but rather with Naruto's back story. Naruto is a social out cast and emotionally abused orphan that had the entire village against him including his love interest, so Most likely SP over sympathized vicariously with Naruto and as a byproduct sympathized with Hinata and therefore wanted the two of them to get together because they both  have self esteem issues so they thought the two made for a "cute couple". The second factor, my assumption is, that Kishi practically let SP have free reins on the anime production and probably did not give any input and if he had problems with how the anime was being produced he either did not voice it or just meekly said okay. I mean he never really stood up for his story either since several times he bended to the trend of popularity in his story arcs because Yahagi told him it was what popular manga were doing or to please executives; prime example being, I heard somewhere Tsunade was suppose to fight against Pain during the invasion but it was cut because they wanted focus to come back to Naruto before the year ended. So again that is just to illustrate that Kishi probably did not put his foot down when it matter and that is probably why Hinata's popularity is so rampant in the studio even though like I said there are countless "shy girls" in manga/anime.

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 February 2023 - 11:11 PM.

[Dalton.T.R]

 

Good question. I'm not even sure what the answer is. I can only give assumptions. As I've said countless times Hinata's personality type is sort of ideal in Japan, shy, timid  and unassertive etc. etc. But there are many other characters with her type of personality in many other manga and anime. My guess is a two fold whammy that lead to her popularity. I will always mention this point, the difference between Hinata and other shy girls from other series has nothing to do with her at all but rather with Naruto's back story. Naruto is a social out cast and emotionally abused orphan that had the entire village against him including his love interest, so Most likely SP over sympathized vicariously with Naruto and as a byproduct sympathized with Hinata and therefore wanted the two of them to get together because they both  have self esteem issues so they thought the two made for a "cute couple"0. The second factor, my assumption is, that Kishi practically let SP have free reins on the anime production and probably did not give any input and if he had problems with how the anime was being produced he either did not voice it or just meekly said okay. I mean he never really stood up for his story either since several times he bended to the trend of popularity in his story arcs because Yahagi told him it was what popular manga were doing or to please executives; prime example being I heard somewhere Tsunade was suppose to fight against Pain during the invasion but it was cut because they wanted focus to come back to Naruto before the year ended. So again that is just to illustrate that Kishi probably did not put his foot down when it matter and that is why Hinata's popularity is so rampant in the studio even though like I said there are countless "shy girls" in manga/anime.

That would make sense. But at the same time, I can't believe he didn't have or want a say in the anime itself. I know I'd be keeping a close eye on what comes out of the show if I were ever given that chance, but I guess not everyone would do the same. 

[TheFirstEvil100]

Hmm, well, depending on when SP started doing Naruto had to have been when Hinata was put in the manga.

[Bail o' Lies]

SP's obsession came from Kishimoto's indifference allowed them to make Hinata their own ideal girl.

 

Hinata is seen as the ideal Japanese woman; traditional. beautiful, submissive, obedient, devoted to her love, but they also have a iron will which Hinata lacks. However, they don't make that interesting a Heroine in Shounen stories, unless you really know what you are doing, so Tsundere are preferred due to being more dynamic and active of a character. There are characters in shounen of the archetype to be sure, but they are often the secondary female destine to lose to the tsundere because she is the primary heroine. So the stories are often the shy meek girl meeting the hero, and through interacting with the hero developing the backbone and will that they didn't have before. In theory, even Kishimoto was going to do this with Hinata by having her marry Neji and help reform the clan. So, he considered her story done and only needed to be addressed at the ending, I doubt he ever considered Hinata, "Sakura's rival for Naruto's love," until it was force upon him. However, his indifference meant he offered no push back because that her story was obvious, to him.

 

SP probably originally was just fond of her as she was their type. However with Kishi doing nothing with her and them needing filler; this meant that they needed to develop their own version of her, like they did many other Naruto characters. So they slowly crafted her into their ideal girl, but not only that but she started to be seen by them as their character over Kishimoto's. Naruto's success was really because of them, and Kishimoto would never been as successful without them, they felt. So, they were entitled to their character winning over Kishi's, to make it clear whose story Naruto really is. Kishimoto could have stopped this if he had been aware and willing to do something...or even accidentally by just developing Hinata's story and character more. But he didn't. And he and his story was punished for his refusal to do something.

 

The Last was SP them doing their story. They didn't really care about Naruto's suffering other than to show how perfect Hinata was for being only that truly cared for him. She is their goddess, Naruto is a stand in for them or her trophy to prove she is superior to Sakura.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 11 February 2023 - 02:38 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

SP's obsession came from Kishimoto's indifference allowed them to make Hinata their own ideal girl.

 

Hinata is seen as the ideal Japanese woman; traditional. beautiful, submissive, obedient, devoted to her love, but they also have a iron will which Hinata lacks. However, they don't make that interesting a Heroine in Shounen stories, unless you really know what you are doing, so Tsundere are preferred due to being more dynamic and active of a character. There are characters in shounen of the archetype to be sure, but they are often the secondary female destine to lose to the tsundere because she is the primary heroine. So the stories are often the shy meek girl meeting the hero, and through interacting with the hero developing the backbone and will that they didn't have before. In theory, even Kishimoto was going to do this with Hinata by having her marry Neji and help reform the clan. So, he considered her story done and only needed to be addressed at the ending, I doubt he ever considered Hinata, "Sakura's rival for Naruto's love," until it was force upon him. However, his indifference meant he offered no push back because that her story was obvious, to him.

 

SP probably originally was just fond of her as she was their type. However with Kishi doing nothing with her and them needing filler; this meant that they needed to develop their own version of her, like they did many other Naruto characters. So they slowly crafted her into their ideal girl, but not only that but she started to be seen by them as their character over Kishimoto's. Naruto's success was really because of them, and Kishimoto would never been as successful without them, they felt. So, they were entitled to their character winning over Kishi's, to make it clear whose story Naruto really is. Kishimoto could have stopped this if he had been aware and willing to do something...or even accidentally by just developing Hinata's story and character more. But he didn't. And he and his story was punished for his refusal to do something.

 

The Last was SP them doing their story. They didn't really care about Naruto's suffering other than to show how perfect Hinata was for being only that truly cared for him. She is their goddess, Naruto is a stand in for them or her trophy to prove she is superior to Sakura.

 

Well said, and all it's done has ruined Naruto beyond repair it feels like. Considering how they kept trying to twist the story over in Boruto to try to make the story their way, and all this other side story crap, all it does is drive people away which is why people don't want anything about Naruto as it is now. They just don't care because they see Naruto as THEIR story but won't admit they screwed the pooch over it.

[LuckyChi7]

The problem I've always noticed is the consistency of what's been said over the years by Kishi whether its pre-ending or post-ending.  I've just noticed that every time Kishi said something it always ends up having contradicting what he said previously.

 

 

I've always said this as an aspiring writer, but since December of last year (2022) I've just find hard to believe what's actually true or false from Kishi.   The analogy that always comes to my mind is like a scavenger hunt. 

 

you try to look for answers and each one ends up being different.   It just feels rather confusing honestly the more thought you put into it!  

[Phantom_999]

That would make sense. But at the same time, I can't believe he didn't have or want a say in the anime itself. I know I'd be keeping a close eye on what comes out of the show if I were ever given that chance, but I guess not everyone would do the same. 

 

Well at the very least he was probably not assertive of his authority in the franchise at the very least. That is the impression I get from his interviews and the like

[Bail o' Lies]

The problem I've always noticed is the consistency of what's been said over the years by Kishi whether its pre-ending or post-ending.  I've just noticed that every time Kishi said something it always ends up having contradicting what he said previously.

 

I've always said this as an aspiring writer, but since December of last year (2022) I've just find hard to believe what's actually true or false from Kishi.   The analogy that always comes to my mind is like a scavenger hunt. 

 

you try to look for answers and each one ends up being different.   It just feels rather confusing honestly the more thought you put into it!  

From the interviews I've seen kishimoto says things to please the interviewer. So you have to read entire interview and see if he saying something just to please that person asking the question. For example the jump festa after the ending a person asked him about Sakura and he went on about how Sakura is his favorite character.

 

He does give his honest opinion though when he not just saying the company line or what he thinks the interviewer wants to hear. All his complaining about Sakura being unpopular and constantly being push to make Hinata the heroine is true because he was venting his frustration about the situation. Same as with him call SS toxic and cliché as that was him still angry about him being screw over by all the pressure his editors put on him for something that has clearly backfired, almost immediately after doing it in fact. 

 

The most important thing is this. Kishimoto rarely had a complex plan to his story. He had an initial story for a character and where they would be at the ending, but unless they interested him that's all they would have.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 13 February 2023 - 07:32 AM.

[Dalton.T.R]

From the interviews I've seen kishimoto says things to please the interviewer. So you have to read entire interview and see if he saying something just to please that person asking the question. For example the jump festa after the ending a person asked him about Sakura and he went on about how Sakura is his favorite character.

 

He does give his honest opinion though when he not just saying the company line or what he thinks the interviewer wants to hear. All his complaining about Sakura being unpopular and constantly being push to make Hinata the heroine is true because he was venting his frustration about the situation. Same as with him call SS toxic and cliché as that was him still angry about him being screw over by all the pressure his editors put on him for something that has clearly backfired, almost immediately after doing it in fact. 

 

The most important thing is this. Kishimoto rarely had a complex plan to his story. He had an initial story for a character and where they would be at the ending, but unless they interested him that's all they would have.

That's why it's best to keep your cast numbers short. Nine characters you're supposed to "grow up with" and follow alongside the story is a lot. Off the top of my head, I only remember following Team 10 when Asuma died and Shikimaru basically got his own arc. You kind of half-assed followed Team Guy at the beginning during Shippuden, but rarely saw them after that. 

[Bail o' Lies]

That's why it's best to keep your cast numbers short. Nine characters you're supposed to "grow up with" and follow alongside the story is a lot. Off the top of my head, I only remember following Team 10 when Asuma died and Shikimaru basically got his own arc. You kind of half-assed followed Team Guy at the beginning during Shippuden, but rarely saw them after that. 

True. If you want to be accurate its 12: 7, 8, 10, & Team Guy. If you want to count them all as the main cast that Kishimoto was developing. But to be honest I think he only saw team 7 initially as the main cast and everyone else as side characters. Even then he has problems as he couldn't even keep up with three main characters.

 

Naruto starts lonely kid working hard to be respected, End goal ends up the leader of the village. In theory we follow his progress to becoming the village leader. We kind of do that for part one, but that's abandon to chase after Sasuke then he end up as some sort of messiah that will end all hatred in the world.

 

Sakura, starts as a girl who loves Sasuke because of the forehead comment, originally, ends loving Naruto because of the forehead comment. He never really knew what to do with her even when it was clear he had to do something.

 

Sasuke starts rival after revenge, ends making peace within himself and becoming Naruto's best friend. Of the three the only one who interested after a certain point and somewhat consumes the manga's story.

 

Like I said before Kishimoto only develops who he finds interesting those being: Shikamaru, Might Guy, Sasuke, and Jiraiya. Everyone else being abandon after their initial story or eventually when he runs out of ideas. But like you said, a writer should limit their cast to what they can actually develop...though kishimoto struggles with even one some times much less 3, 4, 9, 12, or 100 characters. Though for Boruto, it suffers from Ikemoto not wanting the cast he was given and refusing to do anything with them

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 13 February 2023 - 05:59 PM.

[Therece]

Current  Retsuden Numbers:

35.000 in The first week.

 

https://twitter.com/...sG5ra5E1xPJOr9A

 

 

The final numbers must be 50.000 until the end of the month.

Not Bad for a side Nivel of a dead Franchise...

Edited by Therece, 14 February 2023 - 08:40 PM.

[BlueStarSaber]

That doesn't sound impressive even for a side managa

[Therece]

That doesn't sound impressive even for a side managa

You have to see Current Boruto Numbers.

100.000 for the Main Manga.

50.000 for the side manga is half of the Main Manga.

 

 

I was expecting the Side manga selling more than Boruto because at 2015 the novels are selling 80.000/100.000

But the Franchise are dead after 8 years.

Boruto not retaining even 10% of Naruto sales which indicates a massive loss of audience. Boruto's terrible writting and being a flop negatively affected the entire franchise and future material.

Edited by Therece, 14 February 2023 - 10:28 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

How the hell is Boruto the next mistake selling well, that is what I want to know?

[Therece]

How the hell is Boruto the next mistake selling well, that is what I want to know?

The last ten Boruto volumes are selling around 100.000.
If Retsuden get 35.000 in the first week.
Probably Boruto should have 60.000/70.000 in the same period.

[BlueStarSaber]

I know the current boruto numbers that's why sasuke manga sales aren't impressive they are even worse than boruto despite the so called popularity of ss

[Therece]

I know the current boruto numbers that's why sasuke manga sales aren't impressive they are even worse than boruto despite the so called popularity of ss

 

Because SS is still pairing related to Boruto/Naruto series.

If the Franchise is almost Dead. How a Side Material will sell millions like old times?
I doubt a Yaoi Story envolving Kakashi/Iruka  would sell more than 10.000 considering Kakashi Retsuden sold far less than Sasuke Retsuden.

 

The niche SS fandom in Japan after 8 years are at least 50% of the Current Boruto Sales.
I think it's still good for a trash dino story who only have SS fanService. I would consider bad and another flop if the manga had  10.000 in the final sales like some projections in this topic.

 

Maybe SS was more popular than the current Boruto when the Original manga were in the good old days and the franchise still was popular. But it's has been 8 Years of Boruto trashing the franchise and these characters.  Most of the fans simply left or doesn't care about franchise anymore.
Many Sasuke fans burned Boruto manga when Sasuke lost his rinnegan and Sakura simply disappeared during  three years until today...

 

At this point only a big budget Naruto Movie ignoring Boruto to promote some new anime/Manga could save the franchise. Not a  fanservice side manga volume for whatever pairing...

Edited by Therece, 16 February 2023 - 11:31 PM.

[Therece]

 Boruto  Sales of the past Week

 

Boruto Oricon on Twitter: "Boruto Oricon Weekly Ranking February 6/ February 12 14. Volume 19 +33.662 total 67.617 https://t.co/52pPAnzLpe" / Twitter

 

Weekly Oricon Top 50 Mangas (02/6/23 - 02/12/23)

14. Boruto: Naruto Next Generations #19 (67,577)

40. Naruto Gaiden: Sasuke Retsuden #1 (34,931)

Edited by Therece, 17 February 2023 - 08:12 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Well, let's see Naruto in the old days used to make 1,000,000 sales easy, before the ending, on its first week.

 

So, Boruto/nH is 6.76% of the old fanbase, and SS is 3.5%.

[Therece]

i think it's not bad if Boruto was a completly new Manga. It's still in the Top 50 mangas of the Week.

But as a Naruto Continuation it's a Flop.

 

Looks Like Retsuden will get something between 40.000/50.000 at the  fourth week.

While Boruto Hardly will get close 90.000 at this rate.

The last Boruto Volume struggle too much to get close to 100.000.

Edited by Therece, 17 February 2023 - 08:21 PM.