363 replies to this topic

[Yyubie]

This is a thread specific for those who still believe and have faith in NS , it's really sad it turn into this mess .... I really hope justice come soon and cleanse this thread.

[Charger76]

Yyubie is right this thread was specifically made to have faith for future NS possibilities. It has gotten out of hand and is more like NS debate part 2. Seems like similar arguments between 2 threads.

Bare with me this will probably get long......

What's the problem with having faith? Hope and faith makes things more fun and interesting. This site was made for NS material and discussing NS. I'm someone who says never say never, but I'm not dumb, I know NS is 99% probably not going to happen. Boruto is a battle manga and even with all the pairings it still most likely won't have any romance at all. Why would they suddenly focus on changing a pairing? NS at this point barely has any interactions at all. Yet part of me can still have hope because it keeps me interested. It wouldn't make too much sense at this point if NS were to happen, but this is a fantasy manga. Weirded stuff has happened before.

The writers can do whatever they want. Listen again I'm not dumb. lets say I do have faith. If NS were to somehow happen I would very happy. If it doesn't......well nothing changes. Hope's a good thing. This is fiction no harm no foul. Now no one should have such an emotional attachment where they hurt themselves or anything if it weren't too happen, that's not good for anything or any pairing though.

But yeah this thread should probably stick to what t was intended and leave stuff in the other. But as for this thread, if someone still believes, let em. Thad not to say we don't debate. Debate, discussion, and differing opinions are overalls good when productive. Like the posts from before with the "I'm the one who should be sorry". I don't think it means anything to make NS. I believe it means naruto is sorry he could never really fully bring sasuke back, but people can still post it in here if they think it means anything good and So we can debate it! That's the fun of a place like this! Not everything has to be negative, not that it is.

also sorry analyzer if this post seems like it is directly towards you, that is not my intention. I agree with a lot of your points in your debates. Like you, I dislike when people seem to see things from a one-sided view and are not open to other possibilities and reasoning. I just posted this overall to keep things positive and keep things moving

[ThroughWithLove]

Yes, with the right execution you could use the forehead poke in your revised ending. No, however, could you just use it in the way you are suggesting, it needs more set up to work well. The rest is really subjective. I find a forehead poke more unique and symbolic than a forehead kiss, IMO, but that is IMO.

 

We can say some things about Sakura's love, but the Henge wouldl not work. Sakura is a caregiver in heart and Sasuke is well, damaged goods. The answer closer lies in this sort of relationship. Relationships develop and progress, and it is never a singular moment that is: "Yep, I love you now", or where it grows from.

 

And I did articulate why it doesn't work in the terms of ending with one simple reason: If all arrows point one way, you cannot have an ending that is something else entirely with pairings. Yes, pairings are trivial, but Development is not. You still have to execute what you do well.

 

That is one reason why Hinata loved Naruto, it certainly is on a character basis, not "Conviction and nindo", though those relate to his character.

 

I never really get the third and final stage I often see with the proposed Hinata thing. Sure, use it if you want, but it applies to anyone, so for those who do this, yet make an argument that Naruto gave up on Sakura, when Hinata's nindo is the exact same, it's quite hypocritical and shows something else entirely. FYI, if you watch the Last, you see Hinata believe Naruto is with someone else when she first sees the scarf and tries to be happy for him, but she's still down. The situation likely would more be like that.

 

Here's the thing: The mistaken identity doesn't work without restructure, and her love for Sasuke isn't shallow, as it develops to something true and more. It's really well established that Sakura's love for Sasuke is not sourcing from mistaken identity at all. That -cannot- work. That would be shallow love, the entire bench situation, and Sakura's love for Sasuke is not shallow.

 

Do elaborate on these parallels.

 

You're welcome to clarify on what kind of "set-up" you're referring to as far as my proposed forehead kiss is concerned. If it's simply random and out of nowhere, then yeah, I agree. But bare in mind that we're talking about a hypothetical two hour movie, so you'll forgive me if I don't see how it's impractical to build up to Naruto taking a crack at doing what he did in chapter once more, during the climax of our proposed film. Obviously, his actions would be the result of everything that happens throughout the movie. Perhaps we merely need to hash out a precise synopsis of what this NS movie would be about.

 

Sakura is a caregiver and has gone out of her way to heal both of her teammates, but I don't think you really grasp what NS is about if you think it's a sudden "Yep, I love you now." What makes NS work is that Naruto gets her, understands her and is willing to go to great lengths to make her happy. This has been the case since chapter 3, where he finds her forehead charming enough to kiss, something she wanted Sasuke to say. For Sakura, there is nothing sudden about NS. It is a realization of what has been the truth the entire time. It it coming to terms with what she has known deep down. Quickly flashback to every moment in the series that suggests this (and there are many) and you see that there is nothing sudden about it. The development and progression you speak of has been there the entire time just waiting to be unearthed.

 

Here's the thing about your "arrows all point one way" assessment. It's skin deep. You have given us no real justification for this beyond "Naruto held Hinata's hand, so that's a baseline for a future romance!" and "Sakura loves Sasuke because reasons." Nothing that cements the pairings and nothing that holds any more weight than what the author claims was a deliberate attempt to keep reader's guessing about NS. Nothing that can stop the author from returning and saying "Look, I made NS obvious for a while now! Why do I think I kept having Kushina tell Naruto to find a girl like her? Why do you think I made Kushina insecure about her hair? Why do you think I made Obito like Rin? The writing has been on the wall for sometime! I just wanted to keep readers guessing with that stuff in chapter 615 and Hinata's confession, but my mind has been set on NS the entire time!"

 

As for why Hinata likes Naruto, you're welcome go back and review the basis for her falling in love with Naruto as far as the manga is concerned. If you see anything outside of it being a result of his convictions and nindou, feel free to point it out to me.

 

The "third and final stage" I mention could ideally apply to anyone, but the basis of our discussion here is how to make NS work as of chapter 698 and my intention was to provide a means of resolving Hinata's arc. If you agree that it works, then that's fine as far as our discussion goes.

 

Contrary to a lot of NS fans here, I don't actually have a problem with the idea of Naruto ultimately giving up on Sakura romantically. Believe it or not, that's actually consistent with the character provided it's from the perspective that he is putting Sakura's happiness above his own and wants her to be happy first and foremost (something we can infer from the scene during the Tsunade arc where Naruto leaves Sasuke's hospital room or the POAL. This is frankly the direction that should have been taken in The Last movie. But no. The writers were terrified of any notion of Hinata being perceived as a silver medal, so they rewrote Naruto's character for the purpose of assuring otherwise.

 

If the idea that 'Sakura's love is a result of mistaken identity' doesn't work without restructuring, feel free to explain your position. All I see is a conclusory assertion. Otherwise, were her love a result of mistaken identity, that it would follow that her romantic love for Sasuke was indeed shallow given that the mistaken identity would leave us with nothing but the academy days to analyze.

 

You say it's really well established that Sakura's love is not the result of mistaken identity. This sounds awfully conclusory. When was this?

 

As for parallels, I already elaborated on them above.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 18 July 2017 - 04:49 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

I was looking for more parallels besides the one you listed. Tsunade's doesn't fit the parallel by the way.

 

Yes, sorry, but the growth in the manga suggests that its not mistaken identity. Sakura is in love with WHO Sasuke is, not a compliment/almost kiss. I don't really want to do a point by point how did this happen/growth/explanation of why, you can find an SS fan for that, or we can bring this into the Debate Thread and I'll try to outline it for you.

 

You also forget 700 completes the Manga and stands alone without the film, the Film tells how one pairing was sewn together. You'd be creating an ending that didn't fit the 699/698 chapters, and the sew on to an ending to try to force the arrows back another direction. That is messy.

 

Why does Naruto have to do something because it's for Sakura's happiness? I think it's well established that Naruto's feelings have faded away by the time we enter, and as we approach, the Blank Period.

 

What stops the Author from saying that? The author said the contrary, literally said the contrary.

 

I'll work on developing a point to point what you are looking for in your answer on why each of the three pairings points certain directions when I'm not at work, but let's move this over to the debate thread. I will note though, that if you remove part 2, and look only at part one, then jump to 700, while a lot of things will be absolutely non-sensical and bewildering and missed, the arrows of the 3 major pairings would stay the same. I can elaborate more in the Debate Thread how/why that is. NS really needed (And had it's best chance) in the beginning of Part 2, but the Author did not make it happen out of personal choice.

 

You asked me to elaborate on the parallels. I did just that. Simply saying "I was looking for more" or "Tsunade doesn't fit the parallel" are conclusory assertions and don't really tell us what's wrong with my points/positions.

 

You tell us that the "growth in the manga suggest that its not mistaken identity", but again don't really delve into the basis for your assertion. I understand completely that you are of the belief that "Sakura is in love with WHO Sasuke is", but without actually demonstrating to us why/how this is the case, you've done nothing more than demonstrate that you disagree with me.  Saying "go find an SS fan" is insufficient if you are the one who is having the debate. The bottomline here is that when looking to why Sakura loves Sasuke, the author himself tells us this via Kakashi: Love doesn't need a reason.  

 

I haven't forgotten that chapter 700 completes the manga. This debate is premised on the original chapter 699 and 700 not existing (and that there be a few edits in chapter 693).

 

I'm not sure why you're asking me 'why Naruto has to do something because it's for Sakura's happiness" when your initial point here was that it's hypocritical to think Hinata should give up on Naruto, but not think the same for Naruto giving up on Sakura. I explained that it would be perfectly in character for Naruto to do this depending on reasons/justifications. That and this conversation is premised on the original chapter 699 and 700 not existing, so I really don't know what "the blank period" has to do with anything.

 

You ask me what stops the author from saying "Look, I made NS obvious for a while now! Why do I think I kept having Kushina tell Naruto to find a girl like her? Why do you think I made Kushina insecure about her hair? Why do you think I made Obito like Rin? The writing has been on the wall for sometime! I just wanted to keep readers guessing with that stuff in chapter 615 and Hinata's confession, but my mind has been set on NS the entire time!" provided he is doing an NS ending. My answer: Absolutely nothing.  And yes, he did say the contrary, but you're again missing the premise of this debate.

 

You don't need to work on developing a point to point as I'm certainly not going to continue in the debate thread (or respond for eternity either   ). I'm familiar with your posts there and don't see anything that I haven't already substantively addressed here in one form or another. I don't see the need to go elsewhere and believe that just about all the avenues of this conversation have been thoroughly explored. 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 18 July 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[Kagomaru]

This is a thread specific for those who still believe and have faith in NS , it's really sad it turn into this mess .... I really hope justice come soon and cleanse this thread.

I just don't get why anyone would go this far just to influence people's perceptions and distort the facts of this pairing, because it reeks of insecurity and sense of desperation.  You win and yet it's not enough?  Because you know that, deep down, the foundations of your opposing pairing are built upon BS and external pressures that result in a romance that makes Edward and Bella look more credible? I find it especially entertaining that someone who tries to project the image - from his username - that he is objective when really, he's just biased and tries to manipulate details to fit into his theory that "Naruto doesn't love Sakura and NaruHina was always end-game", which has more than few holes as evidenced by the written material itself.  And if you want to label us delusional, then I suppose Kishimoto's wife was an idiot as well, since she believed the same as we do and she was closely involved with the manga. She even called him on his kitten that he ACKNOWLEDGED was kitten when he said that Hinata has a similar personality to herself.

 

He just gave in to SP and the west's demands because, like Hinata, he has no real conviction.

Edited by Kagomaru, 18 July 2017 - 07:55 PM.

[Yyubie]

I just don't get why anyone would go this far just to influence people's perceptions and distort the facts of this pairing, because it reeks of insecurity and sense of desperation.  You win and yet it's not enough?  Because you know that, deep down, the foundations of your opposing pairing are built upon BS and external pressures that result in a romance that makes Edward and Bella look more credible? I find it especially entertaining that someone who tries to project the image - from his username - that he is objective when really, he's just biased and tries to manipulate details to fit into his theory that "Naruto doesn't love Sakura and NaruHina was always end-game", which has more than few holes as evidenced by the written material itself.  And if you want to label us delusional, then I suppose Kishimoto's wife was an idiot as well, since she believed the same as we do and she was closely involved with the manga. She even called him on his kitten that he ACKNOWLEDGED was kitten when he said that Hinata has a similar personality to herself.

 

He just gave in to SP and the west's demands because, like Hinata, he has no real conviction.

Yeah i agree , you are the first one that finally said this , you really got balls. I also think that if i don't / disagree with someone or something then i just simple leave or walk away , as long as they didn't cause any harm to others there's no need to force them to change. We enjoy here we like NS but sometimes those pro ending fans just can't leave us alone. It's just reality , no matter how hard you try to avoid trouble , trouble will come to you.

 

Just in case you didn't know there's feature here called Manage Ignore Prefs in your profile settings , if you put a name of a member here for example me in your ignore pref you wont see my post anymore , at least it's better than nothing.

[Gravenimage]

My recommendation to those debating with analyzer. Just add him to your ignore list. I see no point in reasoning with him.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

I was looking for more parallels besides just the forehead kiss. You said there was a ton. No, Tsunade doesn't fit because hers have nothing to do with an insecurity, just a loving gesture given to a soon-to-be-dead important person in her life. Yes, Kushina went from not liking her Red Hair to loving it after Minato, but it's not the greatest tie in there either, here, Kushina leaves piees of Red Hair for Minato to follow, and he uses it to find her. Sakura's forehead issue is more something that fits around Ino, as Ino is the one who reassures her and teases her about it, rather exclusively. It doesn't touch upon Naruto  or love, unlike the Forehead Poke, which is about love, but also distance, and connects and works here.

 

You say you were looking for more parallels than just the head forehead kiss? Yes and I believe I mentioned a lot more than just the forehead kiss. I mentioned Kushina, her similarities to Sakura, her insecurities and her desire that Naruto find a girl like her. I mentioned Obito and Rin and how their characteristics and dynamics very much mirror Naruto and Sakura's. That's plenty.

 

Saying Tsunade doesn't fit because hers has nothing to do with an insecurity is completely irrelevant as your entire justification for the forehead poke being better is based on 'symbolism' that has no romantic implications whatsoever (Itachi poking Sasuke's head). So in effect, you are trying to have your cake and eat it.   

 

You say Sakura's forehead insecurities aren't the greatest tie-in since it was Ino who teased Sakura about it, but this is a non-starter. In both cases, the male love interest admires a quality of the female love interest that other people tease her for. Of course the two situations aren't exactly the same (or else you may as well say that Sakura has PINK hair, but Kushina has RED, so they are NOTHING alike!!!), but no one said they were. The bottomline is that there is far greater symmetry with Naruto trying to do something romantic that he wasn't able to do in the 3rd chapter than there is with Sasuke doing something that has never had any romantic connotations previously. Though perhaps you disagree . . .

 

 

 

Yikes! 

 

 

All right, so you want SS growth, do you? Part one in general is about acknowledgement, and notably, it's Sakura that gets Sasuke out of his cursed Seal issue when we first see it happen during the Chuunin Exams. Sakura's love does start off as a crush, because Sasuke looks cool and is talented, but evolves into genuinely loving this fractured guy, and you see pieces when she tries to stop him from leaving, the aforementioned Chuunin Exams, visiting him in the hospital. No, it's not sourced because Sasuke compliments her one time, that one time is never, ever referenced again, even, and Sakura is always trying to take care and protect Sasuke. During part one, we see her gradually acknowledge Naruto as well, mind.

 

 

No, I want growth that proves your assertion that "growth in the manga suggest that its not mistaken identity." Any instance of Sakura simply being shown to have love for Sasuke does not prove or suggest this. If it's all mistaken identity, then of course she is going to go out of her way to love Sasuke unconditionally. Be it crying for him during the Chuunin exams or crying for him when he leaves Konoha. Under the mistaken identity premise, she doesn't consciously know that that guy she fell madly in love with was Naruto all along.  

 

The only way you could prove your assertion would be by demonstrating to us the exact reason why she fell in love with Sasuke. If it's the florence nightinggale effect or because she thinks he's "deep", then lets see it. Unfortunately for you, I've had this conversations hundreds of times (which is why I know simply going to SS fans would be a waste of time) and have read the entire manga from panel to panel. I know no such scene exist that delves any further than face value into why she loves Sasuke and I'm readily aware of what Kakashi says in chapter 693, confirming my point: There is no reason.

 

I was asking why does Naruto -have- to act on Sakura's happiness, because you're stating that's the only direction it has to go. This is more of a fanon thing. If, as per canon, Naruto's feelings were only a crush, which faded and died, what do we have to work with for it to go that direction anyway? There isn't really any legitimate, non-comedic NS moments after the Fake Confession mind, so altering 693, removing 699 and 700 isn't enough to stop the arrows pointing from NH onwards. Part One solidifies the sort of ending strongly enough on its own. You have to do some serious alterations here. In Part One alone, you have Sakura confessing her feelings to Sasuke, Sasuke telling her thank you, Sasuke saving her, Sakura saving him from going too far, etc. NS has the growth of acknowledgement and friends, but nothing to point to a sure conclusion, which NH and SS did. I'm not even going to touch NH's part one's growth's here, I think that one is more obvious.

 

 

Nope, canon outright says Naruto loved Sakura, per Sai's statements and per the databooks. So before we get to this stuff about "fanon", you'd need to prove that Sai was lying, was under a genjutsu spell or something.

 

I don't see why there'd need to be any non-comedic NS moments (wrong, btw, since the Kushina parallels are moments, per the author's own admission, even if they are just excused away as red herrings) after the Fake Confession. You said it yourself; this is not a romance manga and pairings are trivial. That and the author is under no obligation to simply refer/recall things that happened in the last third of the story, contrary to your apparent beliefs otherwise. Thus, this whole "pointing arrows" argument is just too unpersuasive.

 

In no way does part one solidify any sort of ending given what transpires (Naruto likes Sakura, Sasuke left the village and Hinata has not confessed), especially if "Sasuke saving Sakura" is your standard for growth. Because if that's the case, you are literally drowning in bias.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 If you want to keep discussing, we can, I've no problem with that.

 

 

I'm gonna do a 'wrap up' of sorts in my next post. After that, you can have the last word if you want. Also . . .

 

 

 

Would you do this with anyone who disagrees with you though? I think it's dangerous to block out counter arguments and be close-minded, discussion is healthy, as long as you don't get too emotional in debates, and for the most part, people are pretty calm, but proceed as you see fit.

 

 

 

You've kind of made it pretty clear that you're anti-NS. So you can dispense with the constant "I love NS, but . . ." replies. No need to deny it, btw. As long as you don't start posting porno or flaming people, the mods don't care. This forum is pretty laid back.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 18 July 2017 - 11:12 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

You can like NS, and like the ending. I don't agree with all your points, but still like NS, and regard it as my favorite pairing. I don't really care for doubt, not going to change my views to adapt to others, though will listen to an open-mind, and definitely admit when I see myself wrong, or others are right about something, as I have in these discussions, and others.

 

 I believe Naruto did love Sakura personally, so when I see you say the same thing, I get confused. I will say those that say it was just a crush have validity: Naruto did not say it himself within the manga, and unofficial Databooks, and Sai himself, do not do enough to make it otherwise. The Last also pushes for a crush theory. But I think love works just as well, as long as we understand mutually that in the present, that love is non-romantic.

 

As for some of your questions, I'm addressing them in the Debate Thread, you can look there if you like. I'll answer some of these other questions as well when I get a post written up. Let's continue it there.

 

Dude, you don't believe Naruto loved Sakura personally. You said it yourself in the previous post that it was a crush that faded and died. You certainly did not pass it off as theory above. It wasn't a matter of "those that say it was just a crush." It was a crush pure and simple, as far as you were concerned. The very fact that you would flippantly change your position all of the sudden just confirms what I've already suspected. Again, no need to play games here. No one is gonna ban you if you admit that you're anti-NS. I personally don't care. One of my closest friends is diehard SS and she doesn't care who knows it.   If I see a line of comments that interest me, I'll address them regardless of the motivation behind them.

 

And you can like NS and like the ending (some people here do), but it's highly unlikely for one to like NS and think it can't happen without rewriting everything starting with the chuunin exams (despite claiming that pairings are trivial, which you only appear to believe when you can criticize people here for their theories on why Kishi picked NH/SS for monetary gain). It's also highly unlikely to come to an NS forum and seldom discuss what you like about NS. Our little discussion about a hypothetical NS ending was partially an effort to give you the chance to do that. A chance to say "Yeah, I liked the ending, but if you tweak a few things here and there, an NS ending would be great too." It wasn't a matter of agreeing with me, but seeing if you would engage in a productive "here's how we make NS happen" sentiment.  Instead, it's all "Nope, no way for NS to make sense! SS and NH have been confirmed pairings since part one!"  C'mon man.

 

Anyways, you may do as you like. I'm not a big fan of going on and on for eternity, so you can respond again if you like. But after that, I'm going to at most make a wrap-up/closing-statement of sorts and call it a day.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 19 July 2017 - 02:45 AM.

[Illnevergiveup3]

I honestly, don't see how you can like the ending and like NS at the same time. Everything about the ending goes completely against it in my opinion. It's an oxymoron if you will.

[James S Cassidy]

No matter how you look at it: Kishimoto is a bad writer who shoehorns in whatever he wants.

No excuse, reason, or "writing analytical debate" can erase the fact that Kishimoto can't write romance or even just plain write stories to save his life; had to retcon several scenes in that didn't exist before to "explain something,"  and wasted time making scenes that supposedly have no purpose other than "To fill space."

Like I have said, if NH and SS was the true intention all along...then a good 90% of the manga pages are meaningless and he just wasted our time and his ink. You could say he "padded it" which means he was milking the series to keep his paycheck going. Many scenes, too many to name, but to give two examples the event on the Heaven and Earth bridge and Sai saying even he can tell Naruto loves Sakura, just proves it. What was the point of them? Red Herring? Yeah, that is always the cop-out when a writer can't admit they messed up. Which is a good metaphor to how our new generation has no self responsibility. It is always someone else's fault, right?

It is one thing to use retcons and rewrites as a means to fix a plot hole....it is another when you use it as the main bases for the entire plot...like Kishimoto did. However, readers can be forgiving if you can end the show strong and great....Kishimoto didn't end it great at all and now all the mistakes he has done is coming to light. They were always there, but Kishimoto showed that you can't ignore his mistakes anymore. Especially if he plans on continuing to be a writer. Worst part is how he can;t even admit that he messed up. He either blames his fans for "not reading properly" or says "it was all part of the plan for it to be messed up."
 

 

The Ending doesn't kill my warmth of my NS relationship, the Last example I gave is a beautiful moment of it. 

Naruto the Last didn't kill NS. Oh no, it killed writing ethic and the anime fandom that we know it. It showed how shallow most modern anime fans are. it showed that more anime fans care more about pairings and not story. It showed the darkest sides of the anime fandom.

It is the epitome of stereotypical shonen traits cranked up to the nth degree and not in a good way. That is the difference between a trope and a cliche. A trope is when a typical element is done right...a cliche is when it is done wrong and used for the wrong purpose. (Red Herrings, for example, are to reveal a twist into the story...like a character being a red herring....a red herring is NOT used to wash away writing mistakes because you messed up. That is not what they are used for.)

It has showed that not all works of manga are written well and showed us how one series can be used to milk the entire fandom for cash rather than a writer fullfilling a dream and writing a message. I want to become a romance writer, but not to suit a bunch of fans of their "dream life" or to fullfill self-insertions sexual fantasies. Stories are meant to inspire people to great things and Naruto just doesn't do that. Any further reader who reads it will see the story as a jumbled mess of garbage.

If anything, Naruto the Last has made NS stronger because it showed how horrible and disgusting NH and SS are. More and more, people are seeing the truth and that is amazing to me.

And if nothing else, Kishimoto has showed the world how NOT to writer a story.

You want to read a truly inspiring story? Read One Punch Man or Fairy Tale. Stories that may seem like parody's or satires, but send REAL messages far better than Naruto does....AND....they all started with people like you and me. Just a fan with a dream. Not a so called "writer" wanting a paycheck.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 July 2017 - 12:17 AM.

[catsi563]

he last was a tripe filled fanfiction fest that had the worst most cliched elements of Fanficiton shoved into an hour and half of bad comedy. IT finished a year of character assassination and ripped more plot holes into the manga story then a freaking cheesegrater.

[catsi563]

No I read the manga the right way with my eyes free of shipping goggles and got a face full of shipper turd for my troubles along with the rest of the fandom. I got to see 690+ Chapters of development thrown out the window while my intelligence was insulted as both a reader, and a manga fan, and don't give me that red herring BullS**t that was a deliberate and direct FU to the fans of the story. They changed what they wanted and when the fans complained they were given a checklist of utter bullcrap that a kindergarden debate student could poke holes in.

 

And I have seen it, its the worst combination of out right clichés Ive ever seen. Trapped lovers, forgotten childhood friendships, saving the child from bullies, etc etc etc all crowbarred into some of the worst writing Ive ever seen outside of Battlefield Earth which remains to this date the only movie ive ever demanded my money back for seeing.

 

You want to like it? go for it, but don't even try to sell me on that garbage. The only thing you get from shining a turd is a shinier turd.

[Illnevergiveup3]

Well, this went from good discussion to Spite.
 
The Last didn't make out SS and NH to be horrible. Have you watched it? It's not that bad, and you'll find half the rumors made up about it are quite false, or flanderized, or taken out of context, or simply even misunderstood.
 
Because you read the Manga the wrong way, and got Red Herring'd -really- bad, and can't go back and see where you went wrong...90% of the manga is off for you. Try going back and read again maybe?

That last paragraph came off as really trollish and insulting. Which pretty much sums you up. How anyone STILL believes you're legit boggles my mind. "Because you got red herring'd really bad." And people still think you're not a troll? Come on.

[James S Cassidy]

Because you read the Manga the wrong way, and got Red Herring'd -really- bad, and can't go back and see where you went wrong...90% of the manga is off for you. Try going back and read again maybe?

http://tvtropes.org/...Main/RedHerring
 

A clue that leads in the wrong direction. A red herring is a good red herring when it interweaves itself into the story's events. For example, the murder victim may have been a philanderer. His wife has no alibi. Aha! It was the wife!

That so called "red herring" played into no events. No outcome. Nothing. Red herrings are misdirections from a story plot that play into the bigger scope of things. A lot of mystery T.V. shows play with this concept.

For example: You don't spend 15 years saying how the main character of your manga is madly in love with a girl and have several characters who personally know him say that yes, he is indeed in love with that particular girl...only at....Hmmmm actually it wasn't explained until AFTER the ending of the manga. About 6 months after the fact. So, no there is no red herring. It is an excuse from a writer to "hand wave" the fact that he had no clue what he was doing.

Also, it is usually something EXPLAINED in the story itself. Not in a writer interview who was answering a question on why when another pairing got more attention and development didn't he go with it. How amusing that everything was explained 6 months after the fact the original story ended...instead of actually being in the story within itself. Sounds like a cop-out to me. Even a novice writer and editor would know not to do something like that as it would create something we call "Plot holes." So no, by evidence that any idiot can write a coherent story, it is no doubt in my mind that things were changed at the last minute....and they used the movie as an excuse to retcon the entire story. What is worse still that despite the retcons, Kishimoto never followed through with those details even into Naruto Gaidan. How convenient isn't it that the movie gets no mention in any other of Kishimoto's sources. And you would think that such "important" detail would exist somewhere else or at least a mention like....the red scarf showing up earlier or even later in the manga. You'd think these would play into a bigger role, but we don't even see a mention of Hinata being bullied as a kid and Naruto supposedly "saving her," or even how the Byakugan is somehow so important.

I am sorry, but if you don't know what a red herring really is...then you are not a writer like you claim. I am also willing to bet that you have never taken a true writing class in collage. I did. I have taken several. I am also sorry, but I really think you are either delusional or an apologist. The evidence is as plain as day and the so called "mistakes" are far too big and far too inconsistent to be something that was  so called "planned" or even a mistake by a writer on a whim.

Two words: Damage Control. Lots of Damage Control. Like MASSIVE CODE RED damage control.

Simplest solution. Occam's razor. The dude was either forced or lost control over his own manga to change the ending to fill the needs of a bunch of rabid Hinata fanboys. He changed it and since then has been doing nothing, but damage control.

As well your comment, like Illnevergiveup3 said, is very stand-offish and sounds very much into to what a pro-ender would say. Especially when it has the tone of very aggressive attacking pattern. I am sorry, but you are not a convincing NS fan. You are a very convincing NH pro-ender given your pattern of posts, tone in your writing, and other small details. Especially from the contradiction and circular logic in your posts.

Now, your posts have provided no evidence of any claim you have made, meanwhile all of us have at least shown you enough to start even a good argument...and we haven't even shown a quarter of it all the evidence we have. All you have been posting is trying to insult our intelligence and our reading comprehension. Honestly, our comprehension is within itself as more evidence because a REAL writer would not insult their readership by making their story an enigma. Stories should be written in clear and as concise as you can to show your reader the whole story. Mistakes can happen, but as I said...what Kishimoto has done is more than just a simple writer mistake or mix-up. It is a blatant attempt to retcon the story and to try and save face. I don't know how clear anyone can make it. The only way people can overlook at this is if they are satisfied with this ending....and as you said...you do. So you are not a NS fan. You are a pro-ender.

"Mm, that's not quite right, is it? In fact, the little details are by far the most important."
-Sherlock Holmes.

P.S. Remember, it was supposed to be "Naruto the manga" not "Hinata the manga." Naruto is the main character and the main character is the one who is the most important. Not a side-character recently made heroine because "excuse to put them together." A real story, and a real shonen, shows the hero and heroine at all times on the screen. Not "back in the shadows and into obscurity for most of the manga."

Naruto is the main character. One of his goals was to be with Sakura and love her. Naruto didn't get that and instead settled for the "sloppy second" and boy, how sloppy she is. A character who ONLY remembered trait was that she was frighteningly obsessed with Naruto. How sad.

Naruto....main character.....main character never achieved any of his goals.....end of a tragic story. Meanwhile 99.99% of every other shonen manga has the main character succeeding in their life goals...no matter how shallow they are. To forget this means that Kishimoto is a worse writer than a novice with a typewriter. Twilight is a more coherent and better story than Naruto at this point because at least the story stays consistent with it's plot lines.

But keep your way, in God's name. I have done

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 July 2017 - 03:54 AM.

[BlueStarSaber]

Well, I don't know how else to respond to what I was given. I mean, if the majority of people could predict the ending, but you saw a cow at the end, and we all saw badgers, and badgers came...and you saw its bad because there's no cow...is the writing bad, or is the reading bad? Or is it the Red Herring, which was really supposed to draw interest in what it could be, while clues were being done on what it was supposed to be.
 
It's not meant to come off as insultive, per say, more to point out that the reading should not be thrown out as bad here.
 
A stronger argument, and something far less spiteful and generic, would be that the ending could have made the badgers more clear. This is a statement that I can agree with.
 
I think you dropped your mic. You should pick it back up.

They didn't predicted the ending they just wanted it to end with NH and SS because they liked or obsessed with this ship. Also many former NH and SS fans did not like how this ending to turned out.

[Illnevergiveup3]

Well, I don't know how else to respond to what I was given. I mean, if the majority of people could predict the ending, but you saw a cow at the end, and we all saw badgers, and badgers came...and you saw its bad because there's no cow...is the writing bad, or is the reading bad? Or is it the Red Herring, which was really supposed to draw interest in what it could be, while clues were being done on what it was supposed to be.

 

What kind of writer would red herring 95 percent of his story? It's pretty clear where the story was headed. It was headed in the NS direction, that was CLEAR. Kishi spent NO time developing NH, even went as far as TELLING us the NH hand holding scene was for transferring chakra only, showed Hinata tripping over a rock and giving up on Naruto because she tried to go somewhere she wasn't supposed to be at. While constantly developing Naruto and Sakura-Chan friendship wise and romantically.

 

 

 

It's not meant to come off as insultive, per say, more to point out that the reading should not be thrown out as bad here.

 

 

you literally said, "you got red herring'd" and then had the nerve to add, "really bad." Notice you didn't say "we" because you left yourself out of the whole equation which adds to my thoughts on you. The reading CAN'T be thrown out as bad when it's going in a CLEAR direction. Hinata was literally ignored 90 percent o the story.

 

 

 

A stronger argument, and something far less spiteful and generic, would be that the ending could have made the badgers more clear. This is a statement that I can agree with.

 

 

Uhm, no. I see nothing spiteful about the TRUTH. NS was the intended pairing all along, it was clear from the get go, that's what the narrative showed us. It is YOU who is trying to change our perception by even calling us delusional and saying that we are wrong when it is clear that we aren't. And YOU know that, which is why you're here to attempt to justify this poor excuse of an ending.

 

 

 

I think you dropped your mic. You should pick it back up.

 

 

 

see, there you go again. I guess you will say, "I didn't mean for this to be insulting." Right? By the way, he fired your ass up.

[catsi563]

What should have been and in my heart alway will be

[catsi563]

Your critque of this is neither warranted or welcome this is a true believers thread and the picture is in that spirit.

 

take your debate and analysis to the debate thread please.

[catsi563]

This is at the ending where it should be.