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[Theory] Hinata was supposed to die?


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#1 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 04:41 PM

I was reading a thread involving our very own genius catsi-sama a few days ago, and it got me thinking when she said the following:

 

To add in Hinata at best is a classic Shonen style shy wallflower whose entire purpose is to have a side crush on the main character usually one of admiration nd occasionally real love before heroically sacrificing herself for the cause after a confession.

 

Bleach and Code Geass both did this character better by orders of magnitude

 

 

Catsi is totally correct about the existence of this trope by the way: http://tvtropes.org/...tedTragicMaiden

 

 

Notwithstanding the revisionist history the Naruto section of this trope page seems to get into as well as contradictory interviews presented after the series' completion, I can't help but wonder. Given how straightforward Hinata adhered to this trope throughout much of the manga and that Hinata was almost killed by Pain during the Pain arc, do you think that it may have been the author's intent to kill her off at one point?  :confused:

 

Discuss! 


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 22 July 2017 - 04:50 PM.

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#2 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 05:07 PM

No.

 

This is because in that same Arc Kakashi -did- die, but was later revived. If he wanted to kill her off, but change his mind, she would have died and not been shown surviving, she'd have been revived with the others at the end anyway.

 

The trope better fits Eponine, from Les Miserables, who actually did this very well. Hinata is not a "Wallflower", nor is her entire purpose is to have a crush on the Main Character. I established Hinata's greater role in the story in a separate thread, which I believe you can go read, that establishes the NH build up and what Hinata exactly does during this. This heroic sacrifice is done because of love, but Kushina does this sacrifice too.

 

Sure, if Hinata did die, it might fit better, but 437 suggests that the feelings were mutual, not one-sided. And that is the error of the application of the trope.

 

One thing that is very clear is that Kishimoto seemed to change his mind a lot. Kakashi was supposed to be the next Hokage at the end of the Pain arc, then Danzou got the role then it was back to Tsunade again. We don't know whether he intended to perma-kill Kakashi or not, although I suspect Kishimoto was on the fence about it at very least.

 

I've read your "Hinata has a greater role" post by the way, but just don't find it persuasive. I think catsi's point about interchanging her with other support characters at various points in the story holds and wouldn't really change anything for Naruto. You're welcome to disagree, but when we look at her character, all things being, her liking Naruto is all she really has going.

 

I didn't see the part in 437 where it suggests that Hinata's feelings are mutual.


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#3 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 05:58 PM

At the end of 437, the large text of the Worst Feelings Ever, and Naruto later refers back to it, was that he literally just gave in to the fox and his angerr and his emotions. This was a moment of telling that showed Naruto's emotions.

 

As for your point about Kakashi, its not necessarily changing mind at all. It's called build up of possibilites. The reader gets excited, then you throw in a twist: Danzou gets selected, but then Danzo is defeated, and then Tsunade wakes up, and she takes back the mantle. At the End though, Kakashi gets it once again, until 700. This sort of build also allows Kishimoto to explore and decide on possibilties as he goes along.

 

Hinata isn't just liking Naruto either. In my post I explained how she saves Naruto early on with her acknowledgement ,something only -she- can do based on the variables at hand. Basically Hinata allows us to see other parts of Naruto, and functions as a supporting character, which she is.

 

You can't switch characters here without a great over-write, I.E., she has relevance. I.E., only Hinata can -really- give the 615 speech, someone else would need a revised scene and build up for it to work.

 

Okay, well just like a lot of the alleged NS moments you take issue with, that part in chapter 437 is subject to interpretation. I certainly don't see any reason Naruto would not have produced a similar reaction had Kakashi, Sakura, Sai or even Rock Lee seemingly died in front of him while protecting him.

 

As for Kakashi, I think it is a matter of changing one's mind as there simply doesn't appear to be much narrative purpose in the back and forth switcheroos as to who was gonna be the next Hokage and Danzo and what little role he played in the story ended up fizzling out and becoming nothing more than fodder for Sasuke's later-to-be-abandoned revenge conquest.. And given what we know about Kishi's initial intentions in having Tsunade fight a losing battle again Pain anyway, I'm not certainly inclined to think that everything that happened in that arc was planned from the getgo.

 

Again, I read your comments on Hinata's role, but you could easily interchange Rock Lee and get the same intended results during the Chuunin exams. Naruto would cheer him and certainly want to avenge him against Neji. Hell, it probably would've been even more satisfying given that both Naruto and Lee were "losers" early on. As to the Pain fight, you could have Iruka, Konohamaru or Lee try to save Naruto in the same fashion and arguably get better narrative results. Iruka was someone Naruto already knew and the first person to openly acknowledge him. Konohamaru was someone Naruto already knew and related to him well with his dream. Lee was someone Naruto already knew and had close kinship with and related to him well with also being a loser. She's a support character, but when it's all said and done, she is just pairing fodder at best.

 

The 615 speech could just as easily be replicated by Sakura or a number male characters (and instead of a slap, it's a punch to the gut). Konohamaru probably would've been the best candidate ("You're not the person I'm trying to surpass! You're supposed to never give up!).

 

Getting back to the topic, Hinata follows a pretty common trope that has been subverted every now and then, but given how seldom we saw Hinata throughout much of the manga, I suspect the thought did cross Kishimoto's mind at very least.


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#4 Gravenimage

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 05:59 PM

I wish Hinata had die instead of Neji the manga would have had a better ending and the world would have been better off without her honestly. She has proven to be a worthless character that was never meant to get the treatment she got from her crazy fans. In fact I wish Kishimoto should have never created her in the first place it sure would have save the manga a whole lot sooner.


Edited by Gravenimage, 22 July 2017 - 05:59 PM.

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#5 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 06:01 PM

Honestly killing her would of done this series a favor at this point, since the ending wouldn't have dropped every loose plot thread and ruin every character just to make her happy.

I honestly hate tv trope at times, while they can be informative of the different type of troops they can be very biased at times, the topic you posted in the link is a perfect example with how they describe naruto's crush on Sakura.

#6 sushi.

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 06:17 PM

Honestly killing her would of done this series a favor at this point, since the ending wouldn't have dropped every loose plot thread and ruin every character just to make her happy.

I honestly hate tv trope at times, while they can be informative of the different type of troops they can be very biased at times, the topic you posted in the link is a perfect example with how they describe naruto's crush on Sakura.

Yes I don't think anti-enders actually wanted her to die, they just think that would've prevented the ending.

 

And no, she was never intended to die and she never needed to. She could've remained a side-character beside Kiba and Lee. Like them, she had her shining moments but was never continously important in the story.


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#7 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 06:51 PM

Yes I don't think anti-enders actually wanted her to die, they just think that would've prevented the ending.
 
And no, she was never intended to die and she never needed to. She could've remained a side-character beside Kiba and Lee. Like them, she had her shining moments but was never continously important in the story.


I will admit perhaps I was harsh in my statement, as that is how I feel when I'm angriest at the ending or the NH fans. When I'm not like that I think she should either realise that Naruto will never love her and that her feelings for him are holding her back and she moves on from him to finally grow as a person, or someone tells her that.

The only time I could of see her dying is that she sacrifices herself to save neji, reversing what their fathers did breaking the branch cycle that her been in her clan for generations. Though her father would be more fitting and disposable for the role.

#8 catsi563

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 07:06 PM

Hinata Feelings in 437 where her feelings were NOT reciprocated by the by. narutos explosion was caused by a number of factors the least of which was the apparent maiming or death of a friend. His sensei and masters deaths, the bringing into question of his entire world view, and the utter devastation of his home village were just as big in his psyche at that moment.

 

Hinata had two options really post 437 

 

She dies: In this option she becomes the martyr and follows the classic archetype that she was of the tragic maiden. Simple clean and For Hinata becomes a battle cry as the rookies resolve the war arc. In this instance Hinatas actual story relevance becomes much more balanced.

 

She lives: From here the author can go one of two routes.

 

A: The original route is what Kishimoto iintended. Hinata gets her one glorious moment and then fades quietly into the background.

 

Or the second route

 

B: where as a character she grows past her Naruto obsession and becomes a more complete character that doesn't rely entirely on Naruto to justify her continued presence in the Manga.

 

The simple fact is Kishimoto chose the A route and let her fall into the background until a plot device was needed again. Her confession was never mentioned, her sacrifice never brought up, she slipped back into quiet irrelevance again.

 

Had he desired to make her more important she should have taken a more forward role resolving the confession, possibly delaying further resolution with a will talk when the war is done or similar. Any number of characters could have mentioned her feelings or sacrifice, Sakura doesn't count she was jealous clearly. 

 

And more intimate conversations could have occurred further positive developing the characters together.

 

NONE of this occurred. 

 

Hinata slipped quietly into the background and wasn't seen or heard from again for nearly a hundred or more chapters

 

No Hinata is irrelevant to the story. her likeability has nothing to do with anything. She remains a character without purpose or plot beyond the main character and her feelings for him.

 

take that away and the character is a blank piece of paper on which even a marginal writer could name generic hyuuga girl #3 and be used to literally the same effect.


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#9 Moon_Girl

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 02:25 AM

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if she was to die. Especially in the Pain Arc. Yeah, everyone was brought back to life at the end (Kakashi) but what if Kakashi was meant to die there too? If I remember correctly, he wasn't exactly -needed- for the rest of the plot after he 'died' in the Pain Arc. 
It's very possible Kishimoto got backlash about Kakashi's death considering he's one of the fandom's most favorite characters. I.E he was used as part of the bait for The Last in the trailers. And, well, if Kakashi was going to be brought back, then why bother with Hinata?
Heck, it could be possible Hinata was meant to die instead of Neji even. 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she was supposed to follow the Tragic Maiden route. (I really wish she did) Especially considering 99.9% of her character revolves around Naruto. I feel like Kishimoto really pushed the fact that she seemed 'unable to live without Naruto' (I.E the suicidal confession and the meat shield in the war arc)so if she wasn't going to be with him in the end (let's face it, we all know she was not planned to be with him) then she'd be the one who loses plot armor (not that she had any??) and dies for the sake of the story. 


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#10 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 02:41 AM

 

See point above for the first part. No, you can't easily change Rock Lee into the Chuunin Exam, because Rock Lee -had not- Acknowledged Naruto fully. Hinata -has-. Plus Hinata was just cheering Naruto before. In other words, the Exam sets up things to work well in the Kiba fight, which sets up things to work well in the Hinata vs. Neji fight, which sets up the Proud Failure Speech, which builds things toward the Neji fight. You would have to place Lee at the -very- beginning here, but again, he was not with Naruto in the academy, and further, he did not fully acknowledge him as I said earlier. It is not a -switch- you can just do without an overhaul, and without really changing the story.

 

Support characters support the story. By their very definition, they are more then "Pairing fodder". The above paragraph illustrates a sort of growth and build up in plot on its own. Look how well Hinata waeves that, into the theme of acknowledgement.

 

Konohamaru wasn't even in the war. You'd have to write him into the whole passage, changing the story here. And based on the paragraph two things above, Hinata again works the best, due to the relevance with Neji. This is not an easy "Just switch". The relevance here has meaning. Neji chose to freely die for two people he cared about, two. Since Hinata was -one- of them, it puts her in a very strong place here for that moment.

 

Thus with all this in mind, and that Kishimoto said that it was meant for Naruto and Hinata to be together early on, there's nothing to suggest he was going to kill her at any point permamently, thus why she was not killed and di  not require reviving.

 

I don't see what difference it makes. (1) If instead of Hinata vs Neji, we get Rock Lee vs Neji and Naruto starts cheering him on once hearing Neji's 'fate' BS and Lee loses, same outcome. No need for Lee to be in the same class as Naruto (though technically, he was if we take into account that Naruto failed the genin exam 3 years in a row :wink:  ) Naruto wants to pound the stuffing out of Neji for trashing Lee like that. Then, during the fight with Neji, Lee sees himself in Naruto and starts to even cheer him upon recognizing his never give up mentality. Naruto wins and Lee sees it proven to him that a loser can indeed beat a genius with hard work. More motivation for Lee to improve later on. Also potential to set up a rivalry between Lee and Naruto later on. (2) Naruto doesn't need Hinata to cheer him on in the Kiba fight. Sakura is sufficient and it's in direct response to him having cheered her on when she beat Ino. Same result.

 

Supporting characters do indeed support the story and some do so much less than others. Hinata is a great example. Don't feel too bad though. I'd go one stop further than catsi and say that after a certain point in the series, Sakura is nothing more than pairing fodder as well.

 

Konohamaru not being in the war is a result of one or two or three panel's worth of exposition. That and it'd be easy to get him there since we know the lengths the author was willing to shoehorn the the first four hokages into the war. He would've actually been better IMO, given that he's had a lot more interaction with Naruto and more time to develop a bond. As to Neji's relevance, him and Hinata are indeed related, but there was nothing hyuuga specific about that scene that required another Hyuuga to be present. And if that's your standard, Rock Lee delivering a solid punch to the gut still suffices and is probably for the best given how badly he's been shafted since the Sound 5 arc.

 

Kishi's post-series interviews aren't credible since he contradicts himself. In one interview, he says he was on the fence about NS/NH and in another, he says NS was never something he considered.  It's BS. The most likely conclusion is that he was making things up as he went along and that the only concrete aspect of the story was Naruto vs Sasuke being the finale. And even the aspects of that weren't concrete given that Kishi didn't know whether it would be a friendly match or friend/foe bout.


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#11 Nate River

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 02:57 AM

I'd say no, but for a much more cynical reason than most are using. 

 

Until Neji died in 615, Kishimoto had shown a rather extreme reluctance to kill off certain types of characters. Those who died were largely mooks (or borderline mooks), old people, and villains. As brutal as the life of a ninja was portrayed to be in the first arc and even given the mass casualties in the war the rookies were almost completely insulated from character death (and by that I mean death within their own ranks). This would naturally include Hinata. Neji was the lone exception and I was actually surprised to see him die and stay that way.

 

One of the few areas where I still think Kishimoto did a good job was in his ability to write scenes that gave him room to maneuver in multiple directions without completely screwing up the plot. He could have easily killed Hinata here without changing much in the scene or most of what he did later on. 



#12 Nate River

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 03:49 AM

 

This is a good point. In a sense, delaying the killing of someone like the K9 really allowed 614's death to really elevate and feel like war.

 

Interesting, I feel if Hinata died, Neji would have been the one to snap him out, a sort of reversal of roles.

 

Id had the opposite effect for me.I couldn't tell at what point where that change took place and I think it probably started prior to Pain, but Gedo Mazo (and Yamato quickly rebuilding the village) probably had the biggest impact. I felt that those things (along with Nagato dying) protected Naruto from the consequences of his decision to spare Nagato. In addition, we had multiple situations where people would do things that were supposed to cause death only for them to live (or be revived like Gaara) anyway. I remember that lonely island when I complained where a new character with minimal attachments to the audience already at the end of her life (Chiho) was used to save a fan favorite from doom. 

 

So by 615, I cynically thought (1) no way he died and (2) he'll come back to life when its all over. I think he dipped his feet into that well too many times.But had he not done so, I could see how your idea might work if Kishimoto had chosen to emphasize that. The more I think about the more I like it. However, it would be dangerous ground because it'd be real easy for Naruto to sound like an obvious idiot if he was not careful. 



#13 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 03:21 PM

 

Your first example does not work. The N vs K and H vs N fight directly build on eachother. Plus Sakura -does- cheer already, it's a separate building of a beginning to acknowledge him. Hinata gives a very revealing internal speech that shows that Naruto is not weak, building sympathy to him. Your way effectively reduces the amount of building blocks and build up, over-all weakening the effect. You're advocating for less building support, and while it won't make the building fall apart, you lose some strong elements which make this very solid writing.

 

Sakura is not pairing fodder either. That is worse than saying Hinata is pairing fodder, as you're disregarding the character's relevance towards the Manga as a whole. Even after 699, and in the Last, she's more then just pairing Fodder, but she's Naruto's friend and support. This isn't even talking about her role in Gaiden.

 

No, Rock Lee doing a punch to the gut does not work. All of the build up prior makes the Hinata scene far more effective. Neji died protecting the two people he cared for. Heck, before this it was the Hyuuga who had stepped up to defend Naruto anyway. Lee would come out of nowhere here, and Neji more strongly connects to both Hinata and Naruto as one, which makes his speech work.

 

Shoehorn, another word for "Forced in". I don't even understand why we are saying something is forced in. Their weaving in made sense.

 

Kishi's interviews don't contradict themselves. He pretty much says that it was NH the whole time, that he gave NS consideration but ruled it wouldn't work. In other words, he stuck to his original plan. IN his latest, he even says he regrets doing the Red Herring he told us he did in an earlier interview. Their is no contradiction here.

 

I hear what you're saying in regards to the back to back Kiba fights, but I think you're missing the big picture here. The overall narrative purpose of HInata's inner monologue is to illustrate Naruto's growth and desire to never give up. Something Lee himself would've been perfect for, considering that he, unlike Hinata, was actively walking in Naruto's shoes and actively trying to excel forward despite being a failure. Whereas with Hinata, you get a few panels of internal monologue, Lee could have actually spoke aloud on Naruto's behalf upon seeing himself in his orange suited contemporary. The more I think about it, it actually would've been better had Lee been in Hinata's role throughout the Chuunin exam arc.

 

Sakura is sadly pairing fodder after a certain point. I've discussed this with you before, but so many of her big moments in part II ultimately didn't amount to anything. They had the potential, but never ever come of it and the author consistently diverted her back to her weak crybaby phase. Worse of all is how the POAL never gets referenced again after Naruto brings Sasuke back and all of her talk about wanting team 7 to laugh together again is tossed out the window once Sasuke is back in the picture and she's doing nothing more than begging to leave the village with him. Sad really. And yet another example of what this series really is once you get down to the brass tacks: Wasted Potential.

 

We've discussed this alleged Hinata buildup to death and your reasoning here doesn't hold. Even if we are to grant that it needs to be someone Neji has a special relationship with, the dude who has actively pursued Neji by making him his goal works just fine. Even better is that both Naruto and Lee are losers whereas Neji is the genius, making his final line even more fitting (not that it's necessary). And taking a step back for a moment, the even bigger issue here is that Neji's death isn't even necessary and that Naruto has no business breaking down like that once you look at the arc in its entirety. Hell, I think we could write that whole scene out the manga without changing anything anything of material importance.

 

When I say shoehorned, I'm referring to the contrived means by Orochimaru's was brought back to life. I'm glad you're fine with it, but bringing people back to life is a huge deal in fiction and is not something you should do lightly, as Kishi did here. That was the second time the Snake Sannin had be ressurected in the manga. Sheesh.

 

Disagree on Kishi's interviews being consistent. The key thing here is him saying he was on the fence in one interview and then making it out as if there were no question that NH was the endgoal the entire them in his latest interview. He makes NS out as something he merely used to keep readers guessing and explains that he would've done this more if not for Naruto being a battle manga. I'm not aware of him saying he regrets the red herrings. Which interview was this?


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#14 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 04:30 PM

Not much would change outside the very end, which certified on how "deep" her character really is. I think Pain "killing" Hinata was rather cop out thing, especially when everyone was going to be revived anyway. I mean how you missed killing a person, Pain. It's a cop out.

Now I don't think she was going to die at all, just saying on the execution.

#15 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 07:29 PM

 

I reviewed and you are right, he doesn't say explicitly he regrets the Red Herrings. But the 2017 interview is the interview in question that I originally referred to. I thought there was another, but perhaps I didn't follow the link. Still, his interviews are consistent. He never even said he was on the fence mind, merely that he considered it, but his ultimate employment was using things as Red Herrings, dropping hints that it might be this, when it was really about this, which the arrows do point to his 700 well. It's a pretty consistent message. Maybe we can link all of the interviews in question and compare? I'm not very good with the posting resources still (Wish I could divide quotes up!).

 

Shoehorned is better fit when something is done out of the blue, with no explanation, but Orochimaru's resurrection is plausible, given that he could have had snakes around. This is why in general I suggest avoiding terms of "forced", because they generally don't fit, particularly about fiction in an unrealistic world as is.

 

Lee doesn't work still. Here's the thing: Lee disregards Naruto, when he challenges Sasuke. Naruto doesn't like it, charges him, Lee defeats him easily. Lee hasn't acknowledged Naruto, so there's be no reason for him to let Naruto cheat on the exam. There'd also be little reason for him to do the comparisons of loser, little reason for Neji to try to kill Lee. You could do it sure, with a rewrite, but you're build up and structure and foundation are less strong. Essentially, in all ways, Hinata is the better choice here than a Lee Swap.

 

The Promise didn't need to be referenced back ,it was completed. Sakura didn't revert to her crybaby part one self. No, before you say it, the 699 thing is not revertion, it's a romantic pursuit, the FIRST serious one, the only time there is romance in the Manga. Sakura is shy and blushy because she's nervous about it. Makes sense. When does this pairing fodder point start? I'm not sure where you're starting your measurement from. There's a clear War Arc point in Sakura's story where she stops walking behind Sasuke's and Naruto's back and goes in to the front, effectively showing her determination not to be left behind. Sure, Sasuke knocks her out to keep her out of the way of the Great N vs S battle,  But that's not a reversion. It may not have been implemented in the best way, that's a fair argument, but there's no growth reversion. That's why I want to know the exact point, and the exact times, so I can discuss them specifically, rather than guess where you mean.

 

 

Subbing Lee in for Hinata: Your problems with Lee could readily be addressed since Lee ultimately came around to acknowledging Naruto and recognizing their similarities anyway. All I'm calling for is that he recognize it midfight upon realizing how similar he and Naruto are and going one step beyond what Hinata's internal monologue by actually having Lee openly speak aloud. Now that's simply in regards to the Kiba fight. You bring up the notion of Lee letting Naruto cheat off his exam, but I'm not calling for this. Instead, my proposition would simply be to omit that scene entirely since it never amounted to anything anyway. Your issues with Neji trying to kill Lee don't really follow as Neji's goal would be to beat Lee and that Lee would not make it an easy fight, thus it's not beyond imagination that Neji would end up being brutal while voicing his beliefs about fate. Lastly, it just ties into the loser overcoming the genius theme a lot better since Lee and Naruto are both actively trying to accomplish just this.

 

Shoehorning:  Something can be shoehorned with or without an explanation. For example, in the film Spider-Man 3, the symbiote suit is explained as being an alien from space that came out of a meteor. It's shoehorned because out of all the people on the planet, the meteor just so happens to land right next to Peter Parker while he just so happened to be relaxing in the park one night. Meanwhile, the villain Sandman gets his powers because he just so happens to stumble across some vague sand mutation experiment one night while being on the run from the police and it just so happens that nobody doing the experiment sees this guy out there. Orochimaru's second (or third?) resurrection is no different because it tells us that it just so happens that you can bring this dude back no problem as long as you got someone with one of his cursed seals lying around and that it just so happens that you can easily restore his arms provided somebody go steal this plot maggufin mask. Seriously? Why even bother with three years of scheming and body swapping? 

 

Rule of thumb: If you're reading a story and you come across something that makes it clear to you that you are reading a story notwithstanding suspension of disbelief, it's probably shoehorned. :lmao:

 

 

Sakura Pairing Fodder: 

 

- POALThe Promise is a pivotal moment for Sakura's character arc, as we see that it is what drives her character as of the end of part 1 when she makes clear that she and Naruto are going to bring Sasuke back together. It is what the entirety of what the first timeskip is premised upon. Saying "it didn't need to be referenced; it was completed" is the equivalent to saying something like "we don't need to see Naruto become Hokage." Oh wait a minute . . . man do I hate what became of this manga. :lmao:

 

-Romantic Reversion: Have discussed this to death at great length in other threads. Beating a dead horse. Bottomline is that every moment you mention regarding Sakura (walking behind Sasuke/Naruto's backs and whatnot) gets subverted shortly afterwards (Sakura whining about being useless and Sasuke rightfully calling her and Kakashi useles) or plain doesn't amount to anything in the end (i.e. the whole "need to kill Sasuke" bit). Everything you could reference in regards to Sakura as of Part II is merely indicative of the potential she had as a character. Noting that, she became nothing more than pairing fodder. As to when this was, I'm not sure, although I'd say chapter 693 is without doubt a bold declaration of pairing fodder. Before that, it's little more ambiguous since Kishi didn't quite know what to do with the character (hence all of that "Sakura's year" crap we got in multiple Jump Fiesta interviews), but that part where she has no issue with Naruto wanting to die with Sasuke is probably another example.

 

 

Interviews: 

 

2014

 
"I decided quite a while ago to go with Hinata.
 
There was a time when I was on the fence about going with Sakura, but after coming this far and just having Sakura switch over to loving Naruto would make her kind of a terrible woman.
 
Anyway, Sakura really has always just been wholeheartedly about Sasuke.”

 

 

 

2016

When I introduced Sakura, I only considered her as another character. I didn’t do it to bring her in as a special female character. She was at the same level as characters like Kiba or Shikamaru, so there was nothing set in my mind at all about Sakura and Naruto being a couple. Obviously, they’d be friends and teammates. For Hinata, I decided pretty early on that they’d be together. Then I figured it’d be more interesting if Sakura would be in the middle, creating a messy love triangle,” he explained.   “But to be honest, there wasn’t much space and time to include stuff like that. Naruto’s a battle manga, not a romance story. You have to decide what to focus on, what you think the readers want to see. So I never thought about making them a couple, but I did throw in some nuggets to make the readers think that. It was all about Naruto and Hinata getting married from an early stage.

 

The 2016 interview never mentions anything about considering Sakura, whereas he says he was on the fence at a time in the first one. I don't see any reason for the omission other than that he can't keep his stories straight. :ermm:


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 23 July 2017 - 07:31 PM.

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Behold! Akame ga Kill's True Canon Pairing!


#16 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 09:52 PM

Perhaps cop out is a wrong word. What I mean is like this: Pain kills and for some reason, he missed to kill her. It's rather odd to do that. It's like a serial killer somehow miss the vital organ; that's hard to believe. If you're not going to kill her, don't act like it. Do it or let her survive by more reasonable approach. In fact, it would make her better if she is the one to manage to escape death by doing something good (for once).

#17 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:31 AM

Too much of a mercy if you ask me. That's like a slasher guy suddenly don't kill a stranger.



#18 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 12:46 AM

 

The 2016 interview, or the 2017, doesn't need to? The gist was that NH was the plan all along, which makes sense.

 

 

The gist of the first interview was that he was on the fence, but ended up with NH. The gist of the 2016 interview was that there was no fence and that Sakura was at best a Kiba level character. Contradiction. Pure and simple. 

 

 

Anyway, Lee really didn't acknowledge Naruto until much later. At a gist, you're doing a rewrite. And once you enter rewrite, how it exactly will function is completely hypothetical. What we can say, with doing the minimum, is that Lee is not such an easy switch.

 

It's not a stretch to have Lee acknowledge Naruto from the Kiba fight onwards if the basis if he's simply picking up upon the crumbs that the author had already laid down for us during Lee's earlier forest fight. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that with some clever edits here and there and a maximum of 20-30 new pages of content/material, I could write Hinata out of the manga.

 

 
You should still avoid shoehorned.

 

 

 
No. :happy:
 
 
What you're stating here is more about a matter of taste, and exposition. There's always going to be that small detail that doesn't get much explanation. It's not bad creativity mind, suspension of disbelief is what makes it work or not. If it doesn't work for you, okay, that's fine, though you should -still- avoid shoehorned as you are -still- not using it right.

 

 

 
You know where the "this is subjective" retort leads. Lets not get into that again. The bottom line is that you are more forgiving of story flaws than I am. We see this clearly when you excuse away the issue with 'Naruto not using shadowclones to handle mindless paper work so that he may spend more time with his family' with the justification that "perfect Naruto is boring." 
 
 
 
693 isn't a pairing fodder moment. Sasuke is once again in darkness, and Sakura cries out essentially, because she can't save him from himself, that at this point, its literally up to Naruto. It's a re-statement of what we understand, Sakura love shim, even with his darkness. She cares for him that much. Pairing Fodder, is once again, not a very good analytical term here, one you should avoid along with shoehorn.

 

 

 
You don't seem to like any negative term I attribute to this series. Perhaps I should describe the scene as being "resplendent" or "marvelously minimalistic."    :wink:  Anyways, everything you've just said about 693 is a run-around means of saying "this scene is about SS." Again, pairing fodder.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 July 2017 - 12:47 AM.

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Behold! Akame ga Kill's True Canon Pairing!


#19 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 02:57 PM

 

No? The Gist of the first was that he considered it, which does not contradict his initial point: That NH was always the plan.

 

 

 

WzmhsRC.jpg

 

 

He is specifically asked whether he considered pairing Naruto with Sakura in this interview. He never says anything about the fence here. Can't be any simpler than that. :ermm:

 

 

 

Sure, you can rewrite Hinata out of the manga, but you're doing a lot of overhaul. Overall, it won't be the same story. As long as we understand that, that's fine.

 

Clever edits throughout the chuunin exam arc and 20-30 new pages in a 700 chapter manga is not much. Regardless of what impact 

you think she had on the story, would you agree with me that the author did not do much with this character?

 

 

 

 

It's not a story flaw to avoid exposition if the pacing demands that it is not used. That's objectively false. How well that works depends on taste and context. As long as that is understood, your opinion is fine.

 

It is a story flaw to create a plot hole in the narrative. Would you agree me that maintaining consistency is of greater priority than 'avoiding exposition' for the sake of pacing?

 

 

 

So if a moment is about a pairing, its pairing fodder? This doesn't make much sense. Sakura does a lot more than 693. Since there are a lot of moments in the story that build up relationships, if that is the definition of your thing, then -everyone- is pairing fodder, and yeah. No. That's not the case.

 

Basically . . . yes. What other value did Sakura have in that scene? Ultimately, Sakura did not do anything for Sasuke in that moment besides push SS. The one who changed him was Naruto, which is clearly reflected by Sasuke even going so far as to say that Naruto is his last friend. The author could have done something else, but he didn't, so he we are. :confused:


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#20 Moon_Girl

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 06:14 PM

If I remember correctly, weren't there Kishimoto statements and interviews that all said that The Last wasn't even his idea. That Sakura really did fall in love with Naruto but was still in love with Sasuke too. (The Last movie leaflet or something)

Also I think the biggest contradiction was his interview before the series ended and the 2016 interview.
It went from basically "you all say hinata hinata should be the heroine, but she's not. It's Sakura." 

to 2016 "lol sakura was never meant to be a heroine"

A lot of his pre-ending interviews all never spoke of Hinata and always referenced Sakura as the heroine.
So...really there's no argument there.


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