Chakra Tree Climber
Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:50 PM
So, episode 4...
Most important part of the episode:
I love his face so much! I would cry so hard if something happened to him. I mean I cry about everything anyways but for him... I would bawl. Please! Please keep Pod safe!
This would be the best thing that ever happened to me! I mean the two things I enjoy most, Game of Thrones and Disney, together, I would be so happy.
Now to look up all the art on Deviantart!
Chakra Tree Climber
Posted 01 May 2014 - 07:28 PM
So, I thought this episode was good...
My Thoughts...
P.S. I want to see Ayra again! Wah!
Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:32 PM
Edited by sushi., 01 May 2014 - 08:37 PM.
ナルサク
Chakra Tree Climber
Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:10 PM
Edited by Heartsbattle, 01 May 2014 - 09:14 PM.
Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:42 PM
The series started off as a good adaption, then it slowly turned into some weird fanfic-s show. Even grrm calls it "the d&d show" 
In the books, Jaime has an erection in the bath scene with Brienne. ;) In this scene, he says "the armor goes well with your eyes". Then he thinks 'she does have astonishing eyes". He also punched a man who talked crap about her.
Since d&d cut all those scenes from the books, that may've been why he made such a blunt comment in ep2. XD
ナルサク
Chakra Tree Climber
Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:46 PM
The series started off as a good adaption, then it slowly turned into some weird fanfic-s show. Even grrm calls it "the d&d show"
In the books, Jaime has an erection in the bath scene with Brienne. ;) In this scene, he says "the armor goes well with your eyes". Then he thinks 'she does have astonishing eyes". He also punched a man who talked crap about her.
Since d&d cut all those scenes from the books, that may've been why he made such a blunt comment in ep2. XD
Dang! I didn't know so much happens between them! I mean, I still don't think that something is going to happen. Jaime just seems like a one-woman kind of guy.
But maybe I'd have a better idea if I actually read the books. But all those extra moments make me crack-ship them even harder.
I hope the show stays close to the books though. I don't want D&D to stray to far. I hope that if they do make changes they run it by GRRM just to make sure it'll still fit.
Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 01 May 2014 - 10:18 PM
I think they're a bit in denial about their feelings to be honest. In Brienne's mind, she is in love with Renly, and Jaime in Cersei. But I don't think their problem is rejection, I hope in time Jaime and Cersei will completely separate because their relationship is quite unhealthy. Then Jaime and Brienne might realize they're right for eachother, I'm just not sure if they'll be canon and they might not even survive.
Also one more thing, Jon isn't supposed to know Bran is alive :s Dunno what I feel about it, a part of me was saddened by Jon's grief, and the scene in the show healed it a bit. But it destroys the idea that every Stark thinks they're the surviving lone wolf with the dead pack, then hopefully they reunite but it won't be before the end.
Edited by sushi., 01 May 2014 - 10:18 PM.
ナルサク
Chakra Tree Climber
Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:18 PM
I think they're a bit in denial about their feelings to be honest. In Brienne's mind, she is in love with Renly, and Jaime in Cersei. But I don't think their problem is rejection, I hope in time Jaime and Cersei will completely separate because their relationship is quite unhealthy. Then Jaime and Brienne might realize they're right for eachother, I'm just not sure if they'll be canon and they might not even survive.
Also one more thing, Jon isn't supposed to know Bran is alive :s Dunno what I feel about it, a part of me was saddened by Jon's grief, and the scene in the show healed it a bit. But it destroys the idea that every Stark thinks they're the surviving lone wolf with the dead pack, then hopefully they reunite but it won't be before the end.
Stop! Gah! The more you tell me I don't know the more I want to go buy the books right now! lol.
I guess the interesting thing for those who have read the books will be to see how D&D entwine all the changes they have made. I mean they will have to make it all work into the original story eventually right.
But that is a really good point, the lone wolf thing. I never noticed it before. Now I really want to know where Rickon is and what he is doing.
Legendary Ninja
Posted 02 May 2014 - 02:36 AM
After that rape scene I was quite speechless tbh. But I braced myself for this episode because I knew they would pretend like it didn't happen. Because hehe IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. The director and Jaime's actor doesn't know a thing 'bout consent, but I hope they didn't brainwash any more boys. They showed a rape scene and told everyone it wasn't rape, it was so disgusting and irresponsible. (boys, don't listen to them pls)
I don't think the director has any sort of agenda to brainwash boys into committing rape. Don't overreact.
The director did mess up with the scene since Cersei's indications for consent (returning all of Jaime's kisses, grabbing him, and holding the table in the end) were not sufficient for the general audience to realize it.
Between Cersei simultaneously resisting and consenting, and the complicated history the two share it makes for a very messed up situation, so I get why the director doesn't consider the scene as just rape. But I also understand that he was too subtle with the way Cersei showed consent, therefore I consider it reasonable that so many people are bothered by that scene.
Maybe that was the point, to make people feel confused about what to think of that scene. Jaime's actor did admit that even if it's not straight up rape that it's not a pretty scene to watch either. You're not meant to think anything good about Jaime in that scene, but it also makes you think about all the issues the siblings have.
The opinion of Nikolaj (Jaime's actor) should be given some level of consideration, given that he probably cares about what his character is thinking when scenes are filmed. He wouldn't be that good of a character otherwise. It's disrespectful to dismiss his opinion so easily by accusing him of "not knowing what consent is", that's a pretty horrible accusation to make. It's really a disservice to an actor who probably cares a lot about delivering the best possible performance to his audience.
Edited by redragon88, 02 May 2014 - 03:44 AM.
Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 02 May 2014 - 02:10 PM
I don't think the director has any sort of agenda to brainwash boys into committing rape. Don't overreact.
The director did mess up with the scene since Cersei's indications for consent (returning all of Jaime's kisses, grabbing him, and holding the table in the end) were not sufficient for the general audience to realize it.
Between Cersei simultaneously resisting and consenting, and the complicated history the two share it makes for a very messed up situation, so I get why the director doesn't consider the scene as just rape. But I also understand that he was too subtle with the way Cersei showed consent, therefore I consider it reasonable that so many people are bothered by that scene.
Maybe that was the point, to make people feel confused about what to think of that scene. Jaime's actor did admit that even if it's not straight up rape that it's not a pretty scene to watch either. You're not meant to think anything good about Jaime in that scene, but it also makes you think about all the issues the siblings have.
The opinion of Nikolaj (Jaime's actor) should be given some level of consideration, given that he probably cares about what his character is thinking when scenes are filmed. He wouldn't be that good of a character otherwise. It's disrespectful to dismiss his opinion so easily by accusing him of "not knowing what consent is", that's a pretty horrible accusation to make. It's really a disservice to an actor who probably cares a lot about delivering the best possible performance to his audience.
Don't tell me what to do. Like of course I don't think the director meant to brainwash any boys, are you even serious because I wasn't?? jk, I thought that much was obvious since I used such a word. Also you put words in my mouth because you elaborated on details I never thought of. You can contribute to rape culture without actually raping anyone.
I was tho serious about what Jaime's actor said when they asked him, he said "yes and no". It can't be both so I only payed attention to the no. He said there are times when she gives in, but that's a bad thing. Giving in is not consent. It reminds me of the "I know you want it" logic. She was obviously not into this, but he was going to sleep with her whether she liked it or not. Her secret pleasure doesn't matter to me when it didn't to Jaime. In canon she literally ended up guiding him into her, big difference.
I admit his comment was way better than the director who glorified the whole thing and thought it was beautiful and his favourite scene ever. I shouldn't have put them in the same box.
Edited by sushi., 02 May 2014 - 03:27 PM.
ナルサク
Legendary Ninja
Posted 02 May 2014 - 07:28 PM
Don't tell me what to do. Like of course I don't think the director meant to brainwash any boys, are you even serious because I wasn't?? jk, I thought that much was obvious since I used such a word. Also you put words in my mouth because you elaborated on details I never thought of. You can contribute to rape culture without actually raping anyone.
So you're accusing me of taking you seriously when I shouldn't have, but how in the world am I supposed to know if you're serious or not. I don't live in your head to know what you think about. Don't make such unreasonable demands.
Also, who are you accusing of contributing to rape culture? Me? The director? In either case that's a very insulting claim you just made. You should be ashamed of yourself. So instead of trying to understand where people are coming from regarding what they say you would just rather brush them aside by demonizing them with such horrible accusation. That's a very uncaring and hurtful thing to do, no matter who you are.
I was tho serious about what Jaime's actor said when they asked him, he said "yes and no". It can't be both so I only payed attention to the no. He said there are times when she gives in, but that's a bad thing. Giving in is not consent. It reminds me of the "I know you want it" logic. She was obviously not into this, but he was going to sleep with her whether she liked it or not. Her secret pleasure doesn't matter to me when it didn't to Jaime. In canon she literally ended up guiding him into her, big difference.
No, Jaime's actor is right, the real answer is "yes and no". To only pay attention to when Cersei resisted and ignore when she consented it to only understand half of the scene. But I will say this, you only seeing the "yes, it's rape" part is understandable. The scene was poorly directed so I get where you're coming from.
I'm not defending what Jaime did, his forcefulness was not right, but given his drama with Cersei it gives you an idea of his inner workings. It's very different to showing the ex-Crows rape Caster's daughters/wives just for giggles. I won't go further than that because I think this is something people either get or don't.
I admit his comment was way better than the director who glorified the whole thing and thought it was beautiful and his favourite scene ever. I shouldn't have put them in the same box.
And where exactly did the director say that it was his most beautiful and favorite scene ever? Because I sure as heck don't remember him saying that at any point.
Follow your own advice, don't put words into other people's mouths.
The guy had a vision for the scene, but failed to realize that his views wouldn't fit with the general audience. That's all that happened.
Edited by redragon88, 02 May 2014 - 07:30 PM.
Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 02 May 2014 - 07:57 PM
So you're accusing me of taking you seriously when I shouldn't have, but how in the world am I supposed to know if you're serious or not. I don't live in your head to know what you think about. Don't make such unreasonable demands.
Also, who are you accusing of contributing to rape culture? Me? The director? In either case that's a very insulting claim you just made. You should be ashamed of yourself. So instead of trying to understand where people are coming from regarding what they say you would just rather brush them aside by demonizing them with such horrible accusation. That's a very uncaring and hurtful thing to do, no matter who you are.
No, Jaime's actor is right, the real answer is "yes and no". To only pay attention to when Cersei resisted and ignore when she consented it to only understand half of the scene. But I will say this, you only seeing the "yes, it's rape" part is understandable. The scene was poorly directed so I get where you're coming from.
I'm not defending what Jaime did, his forcefulness was not right, but given his drama with Cersei it gives you an idea of his inner workings. It's very different to showing the ex-Crows rape Caster's daughters/wives just for giggles. I won't go further than that because I think this is something people either get or don't.
And where exactly did the director say that it was his most beautiful and favorite scene ever? Because I sure as heck don't remember him saying that at any point.
Follow your own advice, don't put words into other people's mouths.
The guy had a vision for the scene, but failed to realize that his views wouldn't fit with the general audience. That's all that happened.
I understand why you misunderstood, but bear in mind how unrealistic it sounds that young boys would be brainwashed into committing rape. 
I believed the exaggerated words were enough, you claimed that I truly believed the director would directly cause more rapes irl. That was a very bold accusation on your part, you took a really wild guess. I was talking more about victim blaming, apologists, glorification of the scene etc. btw No I don't think you contributed to rape culture, please tell me spesifically what I said that made you believe that. Of course the director did, and I don't appreciate that you reduced my accusation down to a mere insult and me pointing fingers. I even showed some examples since it wasn't enough that they twisted the canon moment so brutally(there are actually unnecessary filler rape scenes quite often tho, it's misogynistic), apparently they were so horrible you need evidence to believe me. I understand why you defended him since you didn't know that, but please don't accuse me of lying. I did not put the words in his mouth. If you want the source of what the director said, google it yourself.
Edited by sushi., 02 May 2014 - 09:36 PM.
ナルサク
Legendary Ninja
Posted 02 May 2014 - 10:34 PM
I understand why you misunderstood, but bear in mind how unrealistic it sounds that young boys would be brainwashed into committing rape.
As someone who has been in your shoes, by assuming people would understood my jokes without me needing to explain it, I would recommend to always emphasize those moments in which you're not serious, for the sake of avoiding misunderstandings. The world is a big place and there are people who do believe in brainwashing by the media, so unless we point out that we are kidding then others have no way to know.
When you mentioned rape culture I thought it might be about me since you were vague in specifying to who you referred, but I did mentioned that if even if you were talking about the director that it was a little unfair to say he simply wanted to perpetuate rape culture.
What I gather from the evidence you showed me is that the director tried to make some strange attempt at making the sex scene have a stronger impact if he made Cersei struggle, but then completely succumb to her present desire. And it made an impact alright, but it wasn't the one he was expecting. He failed to deliver the scene properly, Cersei didn't show more clear consent to properly counterbalance Jaime's forceful advances, and as a result the scene can look as rape.
As I said before, I understand why the director wants to defend the editing he made for the scene, but I also understand how his vision was too vague for the audience to pick it up as he wanted. He's not trying to glorify rape, he made a bad choice of direction that created an unfortunate misconception about him, and now he has to clean up his own mess.
And sorry, but I if you expect me to believe that you didn't put those words in the directors mouth it's you that need to show me the evidence. You're the one who saw that article so you would know where to look. You don't have to do it if you don't want to, but I can't really believe such bold claims about the director if I'm not showing anything for it.
In case you're interested I found an article in which they talk about the scene with Lean Headey (Cersei's actress):
http://www.themarysu...-thrones-scene/
She also describes it as something messy and complicated, but that at the end of the day she does stand by it.
As an additional tidbit, did you know that during said scene while they focused only on the sibling in the floor that Jack Gleeson kept peeking down there? He removed his eye stones and just kept looking down to see what was going on, just lurking. I wonder if they would show him doing that in future bloopers.
Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 03 May 2014 - 12:12 AM
I understand why you would want a source, but you could ask for it without accusing me of making it up. It irritated me. But now I found the sources. I misquoted one line though, he didn't say the scene was beautiful, but that it was 'beautifully shot'.
Here is a very nice source of how rape is portrayed in GoT. It also gives you a sneak peek on the book scene. Here is the source for the director's thoughts. I found many things of what he said problematic, such as "power struggle is a turn-on for them". And that he said the scene was consensual by the end, when she was wheeping and it cut off with Jaime hissing that he didn't care. Secret pleasure aside, what she is willing to do and not is very important. Even if she was turned on in the end, she had nothing to say in the matter. It seemed to me that at most she was so pressured she gave in. Tell me she had any influence of the situation. Either the director is in denial or he realized he f**cked up and doesn't want to admit it. (also saying the scene wasn't simply rape and that she consented are two different things)
You are not wrong when you say Jaime and Cersei's relationship/the scene is problematic and complicated, but not in this way at all. Jaime is the only one in the world Cersei trusts. Her relationship with him gives her agency, that is kind of the point of it. It is the only bond where she has the power of her own free will, yet the show stripped it away from her. Jaime wanted to kill Robert for raping Cersei for so many years. He wanted to save the mad king's wife from rape. He said he would rather die than being raped. When he finally gets the courage to actively oppose it(and loses his hand for it!), he goes home and rapes his sister. It was so out of character for him that I will not try to make sense of it. I will pretend it didn't happen, because 1.it didn't, 2.the show actually did the same.
Edited by sushi., 03 May 2014 - 12:38 AM.
ナルサク
Legendary Ninja
Posted 03 May 2014 - 01:04 AM
Thank you for providing the source. I'm only harsh because when it comes to such deep moral topics the provision of sources is very essential since it helps us understand more about the context of said interviews. The way I see it he says it's his favorite scene because he believes he created a deep complex emotional scene, even if the audience disagrees.
You wanted to know about what influence Cersei had in that situation, right? There are two main elements I noticed, first is that she returns Jaime's kisses, and second is that she even grabs onto him and pushes him closer to her before hitting the floor. Those are the indications of her influence, the question is whether that's enough. It's clear that for you, and many others, it isn't and that at no point should she show resistance if the act is to be acceptable.
It seems it's a matter of difference in interpretation. You say that the sibling relationship is not complicated in such a way, but the director seems to disagree. You say that no matter what the scene is rape, but the director takes the complication of the sibling relationship to make it something more than just that.
As for me I side somewhat more with the director, I wouldn't have done the scene as he did but I get where he's coming from. That doesn't mean your view about the scene is bad. It's clearly different from the books so it's understandable to be disappointed.
I don't really want to go into detail about why I think differently from you since that would require to go way deeper into the topic than I care to go. Just know that I understand your stance on the matter more clearly now and even if I don't agree 100% with what you say I do see your point in a more precise manner.
Legendary Ninja
Posted 13 May 2014 - 09:36 PM
"I DEMAND TRIAL BY COMBAT!" - Tyrion
Just when you think Tyrion can't be any more of a badass he delivers the most epic confession I've seen in a while.
Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:22 AM
Edited by sushi., 15 May 2014 - 12:24 AM.
ナルサク
Legendary Ninja
Posted 02 June 2014 - 03:05 AM
Oh, I just can't take another death of a character I like!
Numquam Moribimur
Posted 03 June 2014 - 12:27 AM
*sobs*
Talk about brutal though! I knew it was coming, but the end was far more gorey than I imagined when reading it.
Edited by Quinny52, 03 June 2014 - 12:32 AM.
If there's one thing I have learned In my short time on this Earth
Devotion should be owed not earned Only you determine what you're worth
Gustav Wood - Young Guns
Legendary Ninja
Posted 03 June 2014 - 10:28 AM
DAMMIT OBERYN! YOU HAD ONE JOB!
But really, if he had focused on killing Gregor instead of pushing for a confession then Oberyn would've had that fight in the bag. Jeez, the flexibility on that guy.
I understand why Oberyn was more focused on the confession, but that made him underestimate The Mountain who, as established by Bronn, could kill you if you make a single misstep.
Although I have to admit that the face Tyrion makes at the end was actually pretty funny. It's one of those "Are you kidding me? We had this." expressions.
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