831 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

He said he would save the village and fight Sasuke to death, so if a choice is to be made between Sasuke and village he'd go for the village and....try to save Sasuke as well! But if he can't....well...

Actions speak louder than words.

As I said a long time ago: It is so easy to die for what you believe in, not so easy to actually live for it.

Also, if he dies with Sasuke he is essentially choosing Sasuke over the village. Yeah in that situation he chose the village over Sasuke, but in the long run he is not going to live long enough to insure peace.

[only Naruto]

Eh? That was an all cool reply. Hashirama did not kill himself for Madara's sake. He was ready to kill himself because him killing himself would mean the end of Uchiha and Senju war and there would no longer be battles between them but peace! Let Madara tell Hashirama to kill himself just for the sake of it and Hashirama would make his wood dragon enter Madara's ass and then blow it up! XD. What? Good friend idea upto 483? Hell! He said it just not too long ago! It doens't bother me as to how Naruto sees his other friends since they have done something worth so much affection for him, but what has Sasuke done!!!???

 

He said he would save the village and fight Sasuke to death, so if a choice is to be made between Sasuke and village he'd go for the village and....try to save Sasuke as well! But if he can't....well...

lol  if hshirama did that      . ok u have a point here about the senju vs uchiha war  . ... sasuke saved naruto from haku .and reminded him to defend the important people to him .(these were the only 2 things sasuke did for naruto and they were actually good things ) ...sasuke vs village to naruto ? hmmmmm no doubt the village . but naruto thought sasuke is too strong so they will both die in the battle. cause he felt the indra thing. if am not wrong.

 

 

 

 

@james. 

i think if he dies with sasuke . he is choosing both of them . . but when naruto said that he will die with sasuke . does it mean that he will kill him and then he kill himself after him . or he thinks sasuke is strong and they both will die in the battle ?

Edited by only Naruto, 31 July 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

 

I think you're missing my point. I never said Sasuke wasn't a murderer. I said Obito has done worse, and Kishimoto still thinks he's a great guy. He wrote Naruto crying over Obito's grave basically while calling him awesome. I just don't have any hope of Sasuke getting what he deserves at the end.

Naruto did the same for Itachi when he found out the truth, also did the same for Nagato, and several other characters who absolutely messed with his life, but continued to be him.

No, see I got your point, but I believe you missed a crucial detail that is the real reason why Naruto is so forgiving. Naruto understood the hardships of the opponents he was facing.

-He forgave Gaara and was sad over his death despite him attempting to kill Sakura because Naruto understood his life. He was just like him, but Naruto soon gained friends and love from people whole Gaara remained alone and hated.

-He forgave Nagato because Nagato lost both his parents and his best friend through a hardships of life. Naruto understood him being an orphan and losing the things that he cherished.

-He forgave Itachi because after learning of the truth of Uchiha massacre and what Itachi had to do to save not only Sasuke, but Konoha itself he understood that there is some choices that are never that simple.

-He forgave Obito because he saw a certain aspects of Obito's life similar to his own. How he loved a girl so much he wanted to be with her only to realize she was in danger. How he gave up everything for her and sacrificed his life all for the sake of love. That same guy who ends up being brought back to life by a corrupted evil man that soon caused Rin to be killed. He saw right in front of him how cruel the world can be with not only Kakashi, his best friend, killing his love, but her dying like that all for the sake of war.

Naruto didn't forgive because "forgiveness is key." He forgave them because they lived hard lives and experienced lose that drove them over the edge.

It reminds me of Superman in Injustice when he learns his Alternate counter part who ended up taking over the world and killing people in the name of justice all because Joker killed his wife and daughter. Superman says himself: "You know, if it happened to me, I probably would have been the same way."

You may not agree with it, but that is how Naruto thinks.
 

 

@james. 

i think if he dies with sasuke . he is choosing both of them . . but when naruto said that he will die with sasuke . does it mean that he will kill him and then he kill himself after him . or he thinks sasuke is strong and they both will die in the battle ?

That is another good question, but if you were to ask me, Naruto is far stronger than Sasuke. His feats are far superior and Sasuke's been defeated by lesser means. The only reason why I feel Sasuke has survived this long and simply due to huge plot armor and not in his own strength.

So I don't think Sasuke can actually beat Naruto unless Naruto holds back like Superman to Batman.


 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 31 July 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

If you ask me, it's YOU are the one are so damn cruel and unforgiving! You all bunch of Kira (Light Yagami).

 

I'm just kidding.

[ns.Believe.It]

Actions speak louder than words.

As I said a long time ago: It is so easy to die for what you believe in, not so easy to actually live for it.

Also, if he dies with Sasuke he is essentially choosing Sasuke over the village. Yeah in that situation he chose the village over Sasuke, but in the long run he is not going to live long enough to insure peace.

What?! How did you come to this conclusion? Naruto was acknowledging the fact that he and Sasuke had both become powerful Shinobi and there was a high chance that a battle would result in both of them losing  their lives. That was a warning to Sasuke, indirectly saying "You will only hurt the people of Konoha over my dead body and I'll make sure you die with me as well so you may never hurt them". Naruto would never choose Sasuke over Konoha!

Edited by ns.Believe.It, 31 July 2014 - 10:14 AM.

[narusaku256]

Actions speak louder than words.

As I said a long time ago: It is so easy to die for what you believe in, not so easy to actually live for it.

Also, if he dies with Sasuke he is essentially choosing Sasuke over the village. Yeah in that situation he chose the village over Sasuke, but in the long run he is not going to live long enough to insure peace.

Meaning situational decision goes with the village but in the long run it is Sasuke?

 

lol  if hshirama did that      . ok u have a point here about the senju vs uchiha war  . ... sasuke saved naruto from haku .and reminded him to defend the important people to him .(these were the only 2 things sasuke did for naruto and they were actually good things ) ...sasuke vs village to naruto ? hmmmmm no doubt the village . but naruto thought sasuke is too strong so they will both die in the battle. cause he felt the indra thing. if am not wrong.

 

 

 

 

@james. 

i think if he dies with sasuke . he is choosing both of them . . but when naruto said that he will die with sasuke . does it mean that he will kill him and then he kill himself after him . or he thinks sasuke is strong and they both will die in the battle ?

Part 1 Sasuke was good but what about part 2? He did far more heinous things than the good he did in part 1!

[narusaku256]

What?! How did you come to this conclusion? Naruto was acknowledging the fact that he and Sasuke had both become powerful Shinobi and there was a high chance that a battle would result in both of them losing  their lives. That was a warning to Sasuke, indirectly saying "You will only hurt the people of Konoha over my dead body and I'll make sure you die with me as well so you may never hurt them". Naruto would never choose Sasuke over Konoha!

He said something like, "If you were to attack Konoha then I will fight you to death, Sasuke and I will kill you and die with you shouldering your hatred" He did choose village over Sasuke but James has got a point as well 'Die for the safety of everyone in village only to not be there when peace is required!'

[only Naruto]

Naruto did the same for Itachi when he found out the truth, also did the same for Nagato, and several other characters who absolutely messed with his life, but continued to be him.

No, see I got your point, but I believe you missed a crucial detail that is the real reason why Naruto is so forgiving. Naruto understood the hardships of the opponents he was facing.

-He forgave Gaara and was sad over his death despite him attempting to kill Sakura because Naruto understood his life. He was just like him, but Naruto soon gained friends and love from people whole Gaara remained alone and hated.

-He forgave Nagato because Nagato lost both his parents and his best friend through a hardships of life. Naruto understood him being an orphan and losing the things that he cherished.

-He forgave Itachi because after learning of the truth of Uchiha massacre and what Itachi had to do to save not only Sasuke, but Konoha itself he understood that there is some choices that are never that simple.

-He forgave Obito because he saw a certain aspects of Obito's life similar to his own. How he loved a girl so much he wanted to be with her only to realize she was in danger. How he gave up everything for her and sacrificed his life all for the sake of love. That same guy who ends up being brought back to life by a corrupted evil man that soon caused Rin to be killed. He saw right in front of him how cruel the world can be with not only Kakashi, his best friend, killing his love, but her dying like that all for the sake of war.

Naruto didn't forgive because "forgiveness is key." He forgave them because they lived hard lives and experienced lose that drove them over the edge.

It reminds me of Superman in Injustice when he learns his Alternate counter part who ended up taking over the world and killing people in the name of justice all because Joker killed his wife and daughter. Superman says himself: "You know, if it happened to me, I probably would have been the same way."

You may not agree with it, but that is how Naruto thinks.
 

 

That is another good question, but if you were to ask me, Naruto is far stronger than Sasuke. His feats are far superior and Sasuke's been defeated by lesser means. The only reason why I feel Sasuke has survived this long and simply due to huge plot armor and not in his own strength.

So I don't think Sasuke can actually beat Naruto unless Naruto holds back like Superman to Batman.


 

agree on the first part of your post .. as for my question . . naruto had only the sage mode at that time and sasuke had the ems and susano. and naruto felt the real intention of killing that sasuke had . and naruto didnt know that he would get the kyubi mode . and he said he felt the indra thing with sasuke . all those reasons made me feel.that naruto meant that he will die in the battle not because he will kill himself after sasuke. so what u think?

[ns.Believe.It]

He said something like, "If you were to attack Konoha then I will fight you to death, Sasuke and I will kill you and die with you shouldering your hatred" He did choose village over Sasuke but James has got a point as well 'Die for the safety of everyone in village only to not be there when peace is required!'

He is just acknowledging Sasuke's power as equal to his own when he says that. You think he really wants to die and never get the chance to be Hokage? He is trying to warn Sasuke that attacking Konoha would not do any good to either of them.

[James S Cassidy]

If you ask me, it's YOU are the one are so damn cruel and unforgiving! You all bunch of Kira (Light Yagami).

 

I'm just kidding.

Says the neutral party.
 

"All I know is that my gut says maybe"
 

What?! How did you come to this conclusion? Naruto was acknowledging the fact that he and Sasuke had both become powerful Shinobi and there was a high chance that a battle would result in both of them losing  their lives. That was a warning to Sasuke, indirectly saying "You will only hurt the people of Konoha over my dead body and I'll make sure you die with me as well so you may never hurt them". Naruto would never choose Sasuke over Konoha!

How shall I break this down....

What has been Naruto's ultimate goals? To be Hokage, to achieve peace, to bring back Sasuke.

Sasuke isn't the only threat the world has and it is not going to be the only threat the world faces. It's not like after he defeats Sasuke does the world all of a sudden play nice. If he were to willingly die for Sasuke, then it is only a temporary solution. Not only that, but he abandons Sakura, Kakashi, and everyone else who not only looks up to him, but want him to be a leader into a new age. He literally would be turning his back on that.

Hashirama didn't want to die because of Madara. He wanted to die to achieve peace once and for all. This is not the case for Naruto. He would die with Sasuke not to achieve peace through two clans, but to prevent Sasuke from doing harm to the village. It's not the same thing.

And like I said, what about all the people that count on Naruto? That's what makes this a hard decision. It;s not just the well being of the village at that particular time, but the well being of the village as a whole through the ages. To keep it strong and forever going through the Will of Fire. If Naruto truly wants to achieve peace, he has to stay alive to see it through.

 

[only Naruto]

Meaning situational decision goes with the village but in the long run it is Sasuke?

 

Part 1 Sasuke was good but what about part 2? He did far more heinous things than the good he did in part 1!

part 1 sasuke .  has done some good things .but he was a jerk and cold with people for no reason +leaving the village for revenge and cutting his bonds and erased all the good moments in part 1 . = bad sasuke .   part 2 . evil sasuke with the same level as madara . cold and evil . at least madara made us laugh for some moments . . . we know that .as readers. except naruto and sakura who wanted to save him . naruto because he is naruto (forgiving heart mode always turned on) and sakura had a crush on sasuke .

[James S Cassidy]

agree on the first part of your post .. as for my question . . naruto had only the sage mode at that time and sasuke had the ems and susano. and naruto felt the real intention of killing that sasuke had . and naruto didnt know that he would get the kyubi mode . and he said he felt the indra thing with sasuke . all those reasons made me feel.that naruto meant that he will die in the battle not because he will kill himself after sasuke. so what u think?

Maybe, but this is assuming Naruto was forever going to stay constant after that confrontation. No doubt he would train and gotten stronger until he arrived. Also, Sasuke was going blind by that time and possibly would have lost his eyesight if Obito didn't implant Itachi's eyes in his which he wouldn't have been able to foresee that.....no pun intended. So how can a blind Sasuke fight Sage mode Naruto? Again, this is to say if Obito didn't help Sasuke and Killer Bee didn't help Naruto. Sasuke was basically losing the only power he really had.

Both Naruto and Sasuke never knew they'd get the Ashura and Indra powers, but you do have Naruto saying a couple of times that one day he and Kurama would find a way to work together and soon be friends as well.

Sage Mode is actually no slouch either and it is a powerful technique so no doubt it can be used like he used it against the Third Raikage.
 

but I think in the end it all depends on whether Naruto is ready to go full out on Sasuke which I doubt. That's why I said he would kind of do both because Sasuke would be out for blood and he wouldn't be.

Like I said, Superman vs Batman where Batman says "If Clark wanted to, he would jsut speed blitz me into the pavement, but he is a good man and I am not." I see it as the same way,.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 31 July 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[Arachnia]

I know some of you probably will don't like what I'm gonna say, but...Just read back the manga. I still got all teary on the last page   . Damn being all emo.
 
I recall that, there also redeemable villain in other shounen as well. Such as Seita Soujiro and Yukyuzan Anji in Samurai X. Even FT, Gajeel and Juvia got lost in their ways at the beginning before Makarov took them in. But, I remember in Gajeel-Makarov scene, Makarov stated that he is beyond forgiving Gajeel for hurting his 'children', but abandoning him and let him astray is not a good choice either. Probably not as big as Obito's role, but something like that.
 
This chapter also mark the end of Kamui. So long, dimension travel. We won't meet again~~

You know the kamui, now that its gone what à waste. It was 1 of the best moves

Edited by Arachnia, 31 July 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[narusaku256]

He is just acknowledging Sasuke's power as equal to his own when he says that. You think he really wants to die and never get the chance to be Hokage? He is trying to warn Sasuke that attacking Konoha would not do any good to either of them.

James put it perfectly!

[only Naruto]

Maybe, but this is assuming Naruto was forever going to stay constant after that confrontation. No doubt he would train and gotten stronger until he arrived. Also, Sasuke was going blind by that time and possibly would have lost his eyesight if Obito didn't implant Itachi's eyes in his which he wouldn't have been able to foresee that.....no pun intended. So how can a blind Sasuke fight Sage mode Naruto? Again, this is to say if Obito didn't help Sasuke and Killer Bee didn't help Naruto. Sasuke was basically losing the only power he really had.

Both Naruto and Sasuke never knew they'd get the Ashura and Indra powers, but you do have Naruto saying a couple of times that one day he and Kurama would find a way to work together and soon be friends as well.

Sage Mode is actually no slouch either and it is a powerful technique so no doubt it can be used like he used it against the Third Raikage.
 

but I think in the end it all depends on whether Naruto is ready to go full out on Sasuke which I doubt. That's why I said he would kind of do both because Sasuke would be out for blood and he wouldn't be.

Like I said, Superman vs Batman where Batman says "If Clark wanted to, he would jsut speed blitz me into the pavement, but he is a good man and I am not." I see it as the same way,.

hmmm ok  .after you break it like this . your point is more clear .and i also believe that naruto didnt go full out on sasuke and never will......... for now ill go with your point of view.

[ns.Believe.It]

Says the neutral party.
 

"All I know is that my gut says maybe"
 

How shall I break this down....

What has been Naruto's ultimate goals? To be Hokage, to achieve peace, to bring back Sasuke.

Sasuke isn't the only threat the world has and it is not going to be the only threat the world faces. It's not like after he defeats Sasuke does the world all of a sudden play nice. If he were to willingly die for Sasuke, then it is only a temporary solution. Not only that, but he abandons Sakura, Kakashi, and everyone else who not only looks up to him, but want him to be a leader into a new age. He literally would be turning his back on that.

Hashirama didn't want to die because of Madara. He wanted to die to achieve peace once and for all. This is not the case for Naruto. He would die with Sasuke not to achieve peace through two clans, but to prevent Sasuke from doing harm to the village. It's not the same thing.

And like I said, what about all the people that count on Naruto? That's what makes this a hard decision. It;s not just the well being of the village at that particular time, but the well being of the village as a whole through the ages. To keep it strong and forever going through the Will of Fire. If Naruto truly wants to achieve peace, he has to stay alive to see it through.

 

I'm sorry, I just disagree with this. You are putting too much emphasis on that one sentence and not considering the scene as a whole.

What actually happens..

Naruto and Sasuke attack each other. Naruto later reminds Sasuke of what he had said about high level Shinobi reading each others minds by trading blows in the Final Valley in part 1. Naruto agrees that him and Sasuke had now become high level Shinobi.

 

Naruto then says -" Can you read my mind? Can you understand that if we fight each other we'll both die?" . 

Then he says- "If you attack the leaf village, I'll have no choice but to fight you" .

Then he tries to TnJ Sasuke. He says he hasn't given up on Sasuke and he would definately take Sasuke back to the village. Then he says-" If the worst does happen and we both die we will both be free of our burdens and understand each other in the afterlife". 

 

But Sasuke says he won't change and will kill Naruto. Then Naruto says" Its clear that you still don't respect me at all, we'll fight ".

Then Kakashi says he won't allow Naruto to die and he wanted Naruto to fulfill his dream of being Hokage. 

 

Naruto replies- " I am not worthy of becoming Hokage if I can't even save a friend". 

Edited by ns.Believe.It, 31 July 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[narusaku256]

hmmm ok  .after you break it like this . your point is more clear .and i also believe that naruto didnt go full out on sasuke and never will......... for now ill go with your point of view.

You remember the 'Valley of the end' fight? Naruto was attacking Sasuke with an intent to just 'scratch' his headband and yet he pushed Sasuke soooooo much! God forbid Sasuke if Naruto goes all out on him disregarding his emotions for him and treating him like an enemy. If he goes by the intent of scratching and pushes Sasuke so hard, I can't imagine what'd Naruto do to Sasuke if he drops all his feelings for him and sees him only as an enemy! That.....will be the true Naruto vs Sasuke fight! 

[only Naruto]

You remember the 'Valley of the end' fight? Naruto was attacking Sasuke with an intent to just 'scratch' his headband and yet he pushed Sasuke soooooo much! God forbid Sasuke if Naruto goes all out on him disregarding his emotions for him and treating him like an enemy. If he goes by the intent of scratching and pushes Sasuke so hard, I can't imagine what'd Naruto do to Sasuke if he drops all his feelings for him and sees him only as an enemy! That.....will be the true Naruto vs Sasuke fight! 

i remember. u know what . i dont remember naruto going full power(intention to kill) on any body when he still controlling himself.. he always try to beat them and then use TNJ on them.. and that is why he is my favorite character cause he feel peoples pain and try to change them... but id like to see naruto goes full power . oooh boy . even kaguya cant stop him.   .

 

BTW what u think of the shadow that appeared behind in this chapter. its interesting. ?

[James S Cassidy]

I'm sorry, I just disagree with this. You are putting too much emphasis on that one sentence and not considering the scene as a whole.

Fair Enough, but please don't mistake my actual logic. My real logic is not based on that scene you brought up. Remember, you're the one that brought that one up and are using it to explain Naruto's intention. What actually is and what is intended is not always the same thing. That's why you have people saying "I never intended for this to happen" occasionally when things don't go in way they planned it.

I simply asked if there was a choice between Sasuke and the entire village what would Naruto choose? I feel this is where you might have oversimplified it into thinking I was specifically talking about Sasuke wanting to destroy the village. Instead, what I really am referring to is choosing one over the other if a situation arises where only one choice can be made. It could be any type of situation, but it may not be the one you are thinking of.

You are implying that Naruto would die because Sasuke would best him, but see this is where I have a hard time seeing how Sasuke is equal to Naruto in power. Like I mentioned to Only Naruto I see Naruto as being vastly stronger than Sasuke in a lot of ways and even now you can see the feats Naruto is able to perform. Many want me to believe that Sasuke could easily kill Naruto because their strength is equal, but from the way Naruto has exhibited power compared to how Sasuke has faired over the course of the manga....well, to me the only way Naruto could die by Sasuke is if he held back.

Superman vs Batman. Superman can easily speed blitz and kill Batman if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to and he rather die with Bruce than kill him outright. Same thing here. Naruto could probably easily kill Sasuke, but he won't because of who he is. Sasuke is out for blood, Naruto isn't. That's why it would seem like he is turning his back on the village and the Will of Fire.

It also goes with Hashirama and Madara. Hashirama was far more powerful than Madara, but Hashirama did not want to kill his brother. He eventually had to because he had no other choice. He didn't purposely die with him, he just ended Madara who basically ended up cheating death.

We also cannot base Naruto's own logic on his own power because of course he would say he is not strong enough. Naruto could very well be mistaken about things and he has been wrong before so we can't exactly take his word to heart as well as we can. His feats say otherwise.

Anyway, we will never get that type of situation and it's too bad because it is one hell of a plot device.

Naruto may think one thing, but he has no clue how much he plays on a whole. So personal logic and how we truly matter in the world can work against each other.

and of course....this is only IF he chose Sasuke over that situation....

Edited by James S Cassidy, 31 July 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[MoonDrop04]

Alright any news in that 15 second teaser trailer of the movie yet??

I'm anxious lol