77 replies to this topic

[Tyliout]

Itachi himself says he left Sasuke alive so he could one day kill Itachi (who was considered a villain) and then become a hero to Konoha because of it and also the new leader of the clan. Yes, Itachi loved Konoha, but he loved Sasuke more in the end. I don't believe it was an equal amount of love.

Itachi never ever said anything like that. Itachi did leave Sasuke alive while making himself as the target of his hatred two time(after the massacre and when he met Sasuke a after orochimaru attack on konoha) but then again he was hiding konoha involvement. The only person so far who stated the possibility that you called is madara which is POV is to be taken lightly since he stated is desire to use Sasuke.

Your argument seemed to imply most of Itachi's actions were for Konoha. However, Itachi suspected Sasuke could be capable of attacking Konoha for revenge. If Itachi truly cared more about Konoha, he would have killed Sasuke based on that suspicion. It doesn't matter that at the time Sasuke was still innocent; the chance remained, and Itachi was aware of it, that Sasuke could be a threat. Thus, Sasuke meant more to Itachi.

Are you mistaking here Itachi and Danzo ?

For Itachi it does matter that Sasuke was innocent because if his plan would have been successfull Sasuke would not have known of Konoha involvement in the massacre of the Uchiha. Itachi must have suspected that is attempt to trap Madara would be a failure so he left something to Naruto to stop Sasuke should he go against Konoha. He choose Naruto because Naruto feeling toward Sasuke are the more close to his own thus meaning Naruto would not decide to kill Sasuke unless he have to ( I think the lastest chapter prove that beyond doubt). But Itachi knew that if his little brother took the wrong path he had to be stopped even if he have to kill him to do so. That is what i believe.

Danzo did try to kill Sasuke because is existense could become a problem for Konoha but to think that Itachi would do the same is simply absurd. Itachi is not as cold hearted as Danzo.I d'ont believe he would kill somebody he love unless there is any other choice.

I think Sasuke realizes his brother wanted peace and was willing to sacrifice himself. If he doesn't know that, then he hasn't listened to what anyone has said. Danzou just restated it in recent chapters. Rather, Sasuke doesn't accept that way of living and believes his brother was forced wrongly by Konoha.

Sasuke might understand what is brother wanted but because he believe the same way you do that he was more important than Konoha peace in his brother eye that he could go and destroy konoha and make people suffer . Sure if Sasuke vengeance was only targetting Danzo and the elder Sasuke problem would only be after the actual shinobi system (and in a way it would be somehow noble) but since he said that he is gonna target all of konoha that change a lot. In the end Sasuke is not trying to make the world a better place to live he is just trying to satisfied is desire for vengeance but by doing so he disrespect his brother wish and if he do so it is because of that belief that he is more important to his brother.

[Miss Soupy]

@Tyliout
You need to reread the manga. Ch. 400-401.

[Tyliout]

@Tyliout
You need to reread the manga. Ch. 400-401.

Did but that just made my point more obvious about Madara putting the truth to favor his manipulation. Not sure what is to be miss into that. Everything that is said during those two chapter is tainted by Madara POV thus to take lightly.

[Cloud]

Did but that just made my point more obvious about Madara putting the truth to favor his manipulation. Not sure what is to be miss into that. Everything that is said during those two chapter is tainted by Madara POV thus to take lightly.

What are you talking about? You're jumping everywhere with arguments that make no sense. Soupy was trying to prove to you that Itachi wanted Sasuke to kill him.

Now you're arguing something about Madara?

[Miss Soupy]

Did but that just made my point more obvious about Madara putting the truth to favor his manipulation. Not sure what is to be miss into that. Everything that is said during those two chapter is tainted by Madara POV thus to take lightly.

Uh, that's up to you if you want to disregard those scenes. This is widely accepted by people to be the truth as far as Itachi is concerned.

My point and the mangas point is that Itachi loved Sasuke the most. Manga says Itachi did things the way he did so that Sasuke could be seen as a hero and lead the clan to peace. Sasuke decided NOT to do this. I haven't even been talking about Madara, so I don't know why you brought that up.

But believe what you want *shrugs* I'm just going by the manga.

[Tyliout]

@Cloud Since Madara is the one that tell the whole story in chap 400 and 401 is POV is to take into account. And i never doubted that Itachi wanted Sasuke to kill him.

Uh, that's up to you if you want to disregard those scenes. This is widely accepted by people to be the truth as far as Itachi is concerned.

My point and the mangas point is that Itachi loved Sasuke the most. Manga says Itachi did things the way he did so that Sasuke could be seen as a hero and lead the clan to peace. Sasuke decided NOT to do this. I haven't even been talking about Madara, so I don't know why you brought that up.

But believe what you want *shrugs* I'm just going by the manga.

im not disregarding the manga nor the fact that Itachi loved Sasuke a lot but take into account the fact that during everything that Itachi did he never got close to reveal the truth about Konoha involvement with the Uchiha massacre. Itachi wanted the best for both Sasuke and Konoha.

Manga fact that im taking into account are Manga fact from chapter 403, 404 and 416

In chapter 403 we got the flashback of the conversation between Naruto and Itachi that lead to a lot of questioning concerning what did Itachi gave to Naruto that he hope he would never have to use. Anyway you look at it it is probably not something that is gonna be good for Sasuke.

In chapter 404 we got very interesting word from Madara "more than the truth Itachi did not want him to meet me" if i recall. If those word are not suppose to make us question madara motivation in telling the Story to Sasuke i wonder what does.

In chapter 416 we got clear explanation from sasuke mouth that he believe that is life is more important than konoha for Itachi because Madara told him so but if I take into account chapter 403 i believe that Sasuke might be wrong here about the value of his life for Itachi.

Now that lead back to chapter 478 with Itachi apparition and Naruto turmoil over sasuke fate. If i had to make prediction about what his gonna happen i would say that the Itachi that appear was a fake that sasuke his gonna use against Danzo i would also predict soon maybe a talk between Naruto and Itachi in is mind (might be wishful thinking here) in order to make a contrast between Naruto and Sasuke.

Edited by Tyliout, 02 January 2010 - 10:42 AM.

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

..^ I thought Madara was just manipulating Sasuke with his angst remarks towards Konoha. including the kyubi attack, whom Yondaime/Minato really knows he was the one controlling the kyubi
Itachi love his brother so much, that in exchange he wanted to protect him by accepting the mission, for the the "genocide" of the clan.

Sasuke is so indeed wrong about interpreting/understanding what Itachi had been doing with him. Of course, he is an avenger, and those darkness theme makes his character a peril in darkness, most risk is taken.
Anyhow my prediction would be, there would be some "Itachi" revelations, more scenes.

Edited by pinkheartsyellowstars, 02 January 2010 - 03:45 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

im not disregarding the manga nor the fact that Itachi loved Sasuke a lot but take into account the fact that during everything that Itachi did he never got close to reveal the truth about Konoha involvement with the Uchiha massacre. Itachi wanted the best for both Sasuke and Konoha.

When did I ever say Itachi didn't want the best for Konoha at all? I'm not sure why you are arguing against things I never even said. However, it still remains SASUKE was more important to Itachi. That's all there is to it. Konoha is important, but Sasuke was more important. And even keeping the incident a secret was not just for Konoha. First of all, Itachi needed Sasuke to have a reason to hate him. Second, Sasuke was kept innocent of the incidence so he wouldn't get in trouble. Thus, there would be nothing inhibiting him from become the new clan leader.

In chapter 404 we got very interesting word from Madara "more than the truth Itachi did not want him to meet me" if i recall. If those word are not suppose to make us question madara motivation in telling the Story to Sasuke i wonder what does.

I said myself Madara manipulated Sasuke. What are you arguing against? If Sasuke met Madara, Itachi knew Sasuke could be manipulated. And he was, he even lost the innocence that remained. Itachi failed to save Sasuke and prevent Madara from manipulating him. Now Naruto is Sasuke's only hope.

Madara doesn't need to lie about a story to manipulate. He only needs to tell the story in a certain way and only reveal parts that will help achieve his goal. And Sasuke is a lot like Madara. Madara's brother made a sacrifice for the good of the Uchiha, but what happened? The Uchiha instead made peace and backed down. Madara said he was betrayed. Compare this to Sasuke. His brother made a sacrifice. Sasuke feels it wasn't justified. Sasuke feels betrayed by his village. Madara knew Sasuke would feel the same way he did; he didn't have to lie, he just had to tell him what happened in the right way.

In chapter 416 we got clear explanation from sasuke mouth that he believe that is life is more important than konoha for Itachi because Madara told him so but if I take into account chapter 403 i believe that Sasuke might be wrong here about the value of his life for Itachi.

Sasuke was more important (the village was a close second). Now Sasuke is treating Itachi as more important than the village. But in doing so, he is disrespecting his brothers wishes.

[Tyliout]

When did I ever say Itachi didn't want the best for Konoha at all? I'm not sure why you are arguing against things I never even said. However, it still remains SASUKE was more important to Itachi. That's all there is to it. Konoha is important, but Sasuke was more important. And even keeping the incident a secret was not just for Konoha. First of all, Itachi needed Sasuke to have a reason to hate him. Second, Sasuke was kept innocent of the incidence so he wouldn't get in trouble. Thus, there would be nothing inhibiting him from become the new clan leader.


I said myself Madara manipulated Sasuke. What are you arguing against? If Sasuke met Madara, Itachi knew Sasuke could be manipulated. And he was, he even lost the innocence that remained. Itachi failed to save Sasuke and prevent Madara from manipulating him. Now Naruto is Sasuke's only hope.

Madara doesn't need to lie about a story to manipulate. He only needs to tell the story in a certain way and only reveal parts that will help achieve his goal. And Sasuke is a lot like Madara. Madara's brother made a sacrifice for the good of the Uchiha, but what happened? The Uchiha instead made peace and backed down. Madara said he was betrayed. Compare this to Sasuke. His brother made a sacrifice. Sasuke feels it wasn't justified. Sasuke feels betrayed by his village. Madara knew Sasuke would feel the same way he did; he didn't have to lie, he just had to tell him what happened in the right way.


Sasuke was more important (the village was a close second). Now Sasuke is treating Itachi as more important than the village. But in doing so, he is disrespecting his brothers wishes.

I will try to reformulate the original idea i had when i said the first post then

I believe Sasuke is wrong in is belief because the core reason from which is actual mindset is based is that is brother value is life much more than the village. The latest chapter in Naruto seem to put forward the idea that even if you love someone you might be ready to kill him rather than see him fall lower in to darkness. Since Itachi loved Sasuke that much i believe he would rather put into motion a plan to kill Sasuke instead of letting him go and destroy the village and become a great criminal. Thus what Itachi left into Naruto. When Sasuke will realize that itachi might prefer him dead rather than going after the village Sasuke is gonna take a blow mentally. Because is current choice are largely based on that assumption that he got after Madara told him the truth.

That is why i believe Sasuke falsely believe is life is more important than Konoha.

Now I am not trying to imply that since Itachi is ready to kill Sasuke rather than let destroy the village that he love less his brother than the village but rather that this choice was made because he loved both.

Is it clear now

[Strangelove]

I will try to reformulate the original idea i had when i said the first post then

I believe Sasuke is wrong in is belief because the core reason from which is actual mindset is based is that is brother value is life much more than the village. The latest chapter in Naruto seem to put forward the idea that even if you love someone you might be ready to kill him rather than see him fall lower in to darkness. Since Itachi loved Sasuke that much i believe he would rather put into motion a plan to kill Sasuke instead of letting him go and destroy the village and become a great criminal. Thus what Itachi left into Naruto. When Sasuke will realize that itachi might prefer him dead rather than going after the village Sasuke is gonna take a blow mentally. Because is current choice are largely based on that assumption that he got after Madara told him the truth.

That is why i believe Sasuke falsely believe is life is more important than Konoha.

Now I am not trying to imply that since Itachi is ready to kill Sasuke rather than let destroy the village that he love less his brother than the village but rather that this choice was made because he loved both.

Is it clear now

Which goes to the story of the Uchiha, Itachi was a different Uchiha, he valued the village more than he valued the clan...Sasuke valued the clan more than he valued the village.

Edited by Strangelove, 03 January 2010 - 01:24 AM.

[Cloud]

Is it clear now

Very.

[ciardha]

Which goes to the story of the Uchiha, Itachi was a different Uchiha, he valued the village more than he valued the clan...Sasuke valued the clan more than he valued the village.

It's also interesting how the truth of what was going on amongst the Uchiha clan changes the scenes that Sasuke witnessed as a child- when Fugaku berates Itachi for not attending the "clan meetings" (we now know those were plotting meetings for the coup) and Itachi's angry words of contempt for the clan and the kunai he throws at the Uchiha crest on the wall when other Uchiha clan members question him about not attending the meetings and the suspicious suicide of his best friend (and from what we know now that suicide note was actually Itachi's feelings, it was essentially his suicide note, although that suicide took seven more years to come about), Fugaku's ominous words to Sasuke about not becoming like his older brother (now rendered omnious from Fugaku's direction, he would have groomed Sasuke to become ironically much like what he's become.)

[Hak]

It's also interesting how the truth of what was going on amongst the Uchiha clan changes the scenes that Sasuke witnessed as a child- when Fugaku berates Itachi for not attending the "clan meetings" (we now know those were plotting meetings for the coup) and Itachi's angry words of contempt for the clan and the kunai he throws at the Uchiha crest on the wall when other Uchiha clan members question him about not attending the meetings and the suspicious suicide of his best friend (and from what we know now that suicide note was actually Itachi's feelings, it was essentially his suicide note, although that suicide took seven more years to come about), Fugaku's ominous words to Sasuke about not becoming like his older brother (now rendered omnious from Fugaku's direction, he would have groomed Sasuke to become ironically much like what he's become.)

It seems that Itachi was very much like The Sage of Six Paths, he trained his body like a Senju and had the powerful chakra and eyes of an Uchiha. And more importantly he had the mind of a Senju. It seems that fate made Itachi a bastard son of Uchiha clan!

[ciardha]

It seems that Itachi was very much like The Sage of Six Paths, he trained his body like a Senju and had the powerful chakra and eyes of an Uchiha. And more importantly he had the mind of a Senju. It seems that fate made Itachi a bastard son of Uchiha clan!

A bitter irony that of the Uchiha brothers Itachi would have been the more easily redeemable one- at least on the personal level.

[Hak]

A bitter irony that of the Uchiha brothers Itachi would have been the more easily redeemable one- at least on the personal level.

That is very trye, even though I feel that Itachi continued his duty towards Konoha, so he really didn't need to be redeemed. I have a thought, that ewerything there is to Itachi isn't fully shown yet. Another thing I was thinking is that could this image of Itachi have any thing to do with his MS shoving in Sasukes eye, when Madara shoved his Sharingan eye...

[harry4e]

So we have on our hands another battle Sasuke will win without him actually winning.

[catsi563]

very much true.

that is very much the essence of Sasukes character. Someone who literally cant win for winning. In every case every battle hes fought he has won or more appropriately survived the encounter. While losing the more important battle.

the closest hes come to winning both the battle and the fight was against the Hachibi. When Karin was endangered along with team Hawk, he embraced ever so briefly the notion of greater strength by protecting whats precious to you. in that moment he gained the strength to succeed. while his ultmate goal was a failure he won by prptecting his team.

[ciardha]

the closest hes come to winning both the battle and the fight was against the Hachibi. When Karin was endangered along with team Hawk, he embraced ever so briefly the notion of greater strength by protecting whats precious to you. in that moment he gained the strength to succeed. while his ultmate goal was a failure he won by prptecting his team.

And sadly he doesn't seem to hold much worth to that, I think even Orochimaru understood that more than Sasuke does.

[Gravenimage]

The problem with Sasuke is that he doesn't have a high level of chakra unlike Naruto. Yes he's strong and he has strong techniques but the problem that he lacks the stamina and the chakra. If he uses techniques like Amaterasu and Susano that require lots of chakra to perform he will be weaken and wear out by using those techniques he will be left defenseless and open for an attack. This is exactly why Naruto will win over him he has more chakra than Sasuke as well as stamina its not a matter of strength and power its about endurance and Naruto has that. I think everyone agrees with me that the reason Sasuke won over Naruto at the valley of the end its because Naruto was holding back on him. I'm pretty sure Naruto would have won if he would have used his whole strength.

[Strangelove]

The problem with Sasuke is that he doesn't have a high level of chakra unlike Naruto. Yes he's strong and he has strong techniques but the problem that he lacks the stamina and the chakra. If he uses techniques like Amaterasu and Susano that require lots of chakra to perform he will be weaken and wear out by using those techniques he will be left defenseless and open for an attack. This is exactly why Naruto will win over him he has more chakra than Sasuke as well as stamina its not a matter of strength and power its about endurance and Naruto has that. I think everyone agrees with me that the reason Sasuke won over Naruto at the valley of the end its because Naruto was holding back on him. I'm pretty sure Naruto would have won if he would have used his whole strength.

...Naruto went 1 tail on him...and if he would have connected his rasengan with Sasuke chidori, Sasuke might have been blown away, while the Fox would have healed Naruto's arm, and any other injury.

But...Naruto has a heart...and i don't think he wanted to seriously harm Sasuke.

Edited by Strangelove, 05 January 2010 - 02:42 AM.