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#1 LadyofHubris

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:27 AM

Hello people!  :smile:

 

Alright, so, I'm currently writing a one-shot between Naruto and Sakura. I don't know where to take this, to be honest. The chapter starts with them stopping at a resting spot as they are on their way to Orochimaru's lair in pursuit of Sasuke. 

 

Now, the plot is going to take place during the Sasuke rescue mission, which would be around the time that Sai first joins the group. In this fanfic, he has already left them and followed Orochimaru to the lair. 

 

I don't even know whether to make this M-rated in case of a lemon or keep it T-rated and just include a bit of a kissing moment. You know, have a special moment between them where Naruto reassures her that he's definitely going to bring Sasuke back for her, etc, etc.

 

Maybe I'll add a bit of angst between them about Sakura getting injured when Naruto went four-tails. I have no clue where to take this. So, please, give me some advice and if you see something that needs to be retouched, be my guest and tell me.

 

Thank you guys!  :blush:

 

We will rest here for the night,” Yamato had said.

 

The waning sun had almost completely descended underneath the horizon, indicating the swift approach of nightfall. The recurrent chirping from the crickets amongst the surrounding wilderness accompanied with the occasional hoot of an owl alerted the small group of the nocturnal creatures watching their every move.

 

Yes,” the pink-haired kunoichi called Sakura replied with assent. The young woman is standing with her intertwined fingers resting demurely at the small of her back. She is the medical-nin of the group which means that her importance is above all others. The splotches of dirt present on her clothes as well as on the surface of her fair skin indicate her work on the battlefield, for she wasn't a girl without strength.

 

When hearing the order to take the break, Uzumaki Naruto, extends his arms above his head and bends them down to lock his hands behind the base of his neck with an enthusiastic 'yes sir!'. The young man is as strong as an ox with limitless stamina. He could travel all night if underneath the right circumstance, but no complaints were given.

 

He, too, is covered from head to toe in dirt splotches, but even more so than his pink-haired companion who he offers a broad grin when he feels her jade eyes flicker towards him for a slip second with her mouth lifted slightly at the corner. His azure eyes soften with affection as he watched her for a brief moment. She was the girl he had been in love with since he was twelve, he reminds himself.

 

Back then and even today, her smile was the cutest thing he had ever laid eyes on. Even if it were for someone else, it still remained implanted within the confinements of his mind. The way the corners of her perfect lips curled upwards as she showed a row of pearly white teeth would let him know that everything was alright. Whenever she smiled, everything was alright. The world was a better place whenever her smile graced his presence.

 

Her smile was worth preserving. It was worth saving. It had always been a personal desire of his to see her happy at any means necessary. He would do anything, absolutely anything, to keep that smile on her face. Even if it wasn't he who made her smile, but rather bringing back the person that did make her smile. He would do anything just to see it again.

 

They had a few more hours to go before they reached Orochimaru's lair. Just a bit more—

 

Naruto!” An all too familiar voice thunders somewhere next to him and he snaps out of his reverie as he turns to acknowledge the lissome figure of the love of his life. He blinks, processing the nettled expression on her face which quickly melts into exhaustion.

 

Sakura-chan?”

 

You're collecting the firewood,” she states listlessly, yet the brassy timbre of her voice rings clear that the order was not open for discussion. The captain had already taken his position up in a tree, more than likely his resting spot until it was time to get moving again. His decision to settle down also indicated that the responsibility of getting a fire started was up to them. She was already aching and in a filthy state of hygiene, so she left the task up to Naruto. Besides, he was the one left with plenty of energy.

 

Sure,” he assures her as a signature grin adorns his face accompanied with a 'nice-guy' pose. “You can count on me!”

 

She shook her head, a tender feel to her expression now. 'Always', her inner self whispers to her and she responds with a gentle smile.

 

It didn't take long for the knuckle-head shinobi to collect a small stack of wood. Sakura didn't look up as he continued with the task of preparing everything. Before long, a decent-sized flame was gleaming before them. The twosome unconsciously scoot closer to their only source of heat for the night.

 

Sighing, Sakura withdraws into herself. 


Edited by LadyofHubris, 27 February 2014 - 12:33 AM.


#2 Dalton.T.R

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:51 AM

Well, it's your story. You're the only one who can make that call. If you're new to writing, I'd recommend reading my 'Tips for new Writer's' thread. It'll make this a little easier for you. Even if you're experienced you should still take a look at it. 

 

Just do what you think is right for the story. If you're dealing with writer's block, find a way around it. Don't worry about your story being weird or not making sense. You can always go back and edit parts you are uncomfortable with.

 

Just keep the story simple enough for you to write.


Edited by Night Hawk, 27 February 2014 - 04:52 AM.


#3 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:42 PM

It sounds like an interesting idea. There is one big thing I noticed that you may want to be aware of and fix; much of the excerpt above is written in present tense but occasionally switches to the past tense. To keep the flow consistent, you should try to keep everything in the same tense, whichever one you feel more comfortable with. You're not the only one who has problems with tenses, a lot of people do myself included, and it really is a pretty simple habit to fix once you recognize it.

 

I wish you the best with your fic.  :thumb:


Edited by BakeNeko-Chan, 27 February 2014 - 02:42 PM.


#4 LadyofHubris

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:17 PM

Thank you so much, guys! I'm going to work on that past-present tense issue you pointed out, Bake. I will also take a look at your thread, Night.

 

I appreciate it. 



#5 Nate River

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 04:08 AM

As to whether to make it M for a lemon, you need to ask yourself why? I have been reading fanfiction since 2000 and I cannot think of a single story that was improved because the author got sexually explicit enough to hit lemon territory. Sex via implication or taking the scene far enough that the end result is obvious before shifting scenes has always been adequate for the goal the author was trying to accomplish. If you not adding for porn-bait, then, as I said, you need to ask youself why you want to go into lemon-level detail and what it adds to your story.

I avoid lemons, unless it's a small part of a larger story and even then I will skim past the explicit stuff. I've never felt like I missed anything when I skimmed by it.

#6 Dalton.T.R

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 04:03 PM

As to whether to make it M for a lemon, you need to ask yourself why? I have been reading fanfiction since 2000 and I cannot think of a single story that was improved because the author got sexually explicit enough to hit lemon territory. Sex via implication or taking the scene far enough that the end result is obvious before shifting scenes has always been adequate for the goal the author was trying to accomplish. If you not adding for porn-bait, then, as I said, you need to ask youself why you want to go into lemon-level detail and what it adds to your story.

I avoid lemons, unless it's a small part of a larger story and even then I will skim past the explicit stuff. I've never felt like I missed anything when I skimmed by it.

I agree with this. I actually stopped reading fanfics because I kept finding so many lemon stories it got annoying more than anything. A story doesn't need sex in it to be good. Just leave that stuff up to the reader's imagination. Lemons should really be their own story, not mixed with a fast paced action or something like that. 



#7 KnS

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:55 PM

Boy, you guys sure put us lemon writers in their place, lol.   :wot:

 

I can understand not wanting to read sex scenes, particularly if they are not well written.  Fortunately those who don't wish to read them can skip such stories.  Thank goodness for a rating system, right?

 

The thing about fan fiction is that it allows fans to explore aspects of the characters that the canon author never will.  Sex is a part of life, and it's a big part of teenagers figuring out who they are and how they feel.  In my opinion, exploring how the characters might actually deal with those very real feelings and experiences is interesting -- far more so than reading someone's tired and predictable retelling of the manga or something similar.

 

And I personally disagree that sex should be uniformly excluded from action stories and/or confined to a romance-only story.  Ninja lead an active life by definition.  Saying that a story involving sex shouldn't be mixed with action... well, that's not very realistic for the genre, and for some (both readers and writers) it would be very limiting and flat out dull.

 

To each his own.  I will always seek to write stories that I believe are realistic, tasteful, and that bring natural aspects of the characters' lives into vivid focus.  If some readers want to summarily dismiss my lemony work without giving it a chance, so be it.  I'm all for freedom of choice.


Edited by KnS, 02 March 2014 - 08:58 PM.


#8 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 09:41 PM

Boy, you guys sure put us lemon writers in their place, lol.   :wot:

 

I can understand not wanting to read sex scenes, particularly if they are not well written.  Fortunately those who don't wish to read them can skip such stories.  Thank goodness for a rating system, right?

 

The thing about fan fiction is that it allows fans to explore aspects of the characters that the canon author never will.  Sex is a part of life, and it's a big part of teenagers figuring out who they are and how they feel.  In my opinion, exploring how the characters might actually deal with those very real feelings and experiences is interesting -- far more so than reading someone's tired and predictable retelling of the manga or something similar.

 

And I personally disagree that sex should be uniformly excluded from action stories and/or confined to a romance-only story.  Ninja lead an active life by definition.  Saying that a story involving sex shouldn't be mixed with action... well, that's not very realistic for the genre, and for some (both readers and writers) it would be very limiting and flat out dull.

 

To each his own.  I will always seek to write stories that I believe are realistic, tasteful, and that bring natural aspects of the characters' lives into vivid focus.  If some readers want to summarily dismiss my lemony work without giving it a chance, so be it.  I'm all for freedom of choice.

 

I agree and excellently put, KnS. Personally, I don't think I would be very comfortable writing any detailed lemon scenes, simply because without personal experience to draw from I feel I would only make a mess of it. But sex is a natural thing and I see no reason why it should be shunned in fiction, and if people do not wish to read it then that's what ratings filters are for, as you said above. There is a difference between gratuitous and poorly written lemons and ones that are tastefully done and possess a more emotion driven context.



#9 Nate River

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:54 AM

Boy, you guys sure put us lemon writers in their place, lol.   :wot:
 
I can understand not wanting to read sex scenes, particularly if they are not well written.  Fortunately those who don't wish to read them can skip such stories.  Thank goodness for a rating system, right?
 
The thing about fan fiction is that it allows fans to explore aspects of the characters that the canon author never will.  Sex is a part of life, and it's a big part of teenagers figuring out who they are and how they feel.  In my opinion, exploring how the characters might actually deal with those very real feelings and experiences is interesting -- far more so than reading someone's tired and predictable retelling of the manga or something similar.
 
And I personally disagree that sex should be uniformly excluded from action stories and/or confined to a romance-only story.  Ninja lead an active life by definition.  Saying that a story involving sex shouldn't be mixed with action... well, that's not very realistic for the genre, and for some (both readers and writers) it would be very limiting and flat out dull.
 
To each his own.  I will always seek to write stories that I believe are realistic, tasteful, and that bring natural aspects of the characters' lives into vivid focus.  If some readers want to summarily dismiss my lemony work without giving it a chance, so be it.  I'm all for freedom of choice.


As I said, I am not suggesting eliminating the concept. It matters, but everything you describe; none of it requires the fic to enter lemon territory. I simply do not understand the inclusion play-by-play detail of the act itself.
 

I agree and excellently put, KnS. Personally, I don't think I would be very comfortable writing any detailed lemon scenes, simply because without personal experience to draw from I feel I would only make a mess of it. But sex is a natural thing and I see no reason why it should be shunned in fiction, and if people do not wish to read it then that's what ratings filters are for, as you said above. There is a difference between gratuitous and poorly written lemons and ones that are tastefully done and possess a more emotion driven context.


You guys are missing my point. I was explicit in saying I am not arguing for the elimination of sex in fanfiction. I am complaining about specific details of the physical act. They can talk about it, their feelings, who is screwing who, none of it bothers me. I simply do not see the need the detail of how they are grabbing each other and removing their clothes. What part of the things you and KnS describe requires that?

You mention gratitous lemons: That is precisely what I am complaining about and did not say I don't read those that deal with the subject. I don't need every agonizing detail of how Sakura/Naruto or whoever shoved their hand down someone else's pants and what they did once it was there. Everything KnS talks about can be accomplished without doing that.

What do I lose by using obvious implication rather than lemon-level detail?


EDIT: KnS, I cannot say whether I'd read the story or not. If the lemon is but one component of an otherwise strong story, I'd probably read it as long as the plot was interesting to me. But, yeah, I'd skip the lemon parts. I've done it lots of times, and as I said, I've never felt as if I missed a crutial part of the development or plot.

I would probably miss if it, unless recommended to me. It's been years since I activated a M filter on any sight.

 

Boy, you guys sure put us lemon writers in their place, lol. :wot:


Not my intent. To me, "why" is a question any author should ask themselves over and over about any aspect, especially if they have doubts about it's inclusion.

#10 Jenskott

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:47 AM

I agree with you, Nate -and I got what you intended to mean-. It is not a matter of whether it is realistic or unrealistic (although many lemons are incredibly unrealistic and absurd, often sexist, and make painfully clear that the author has no idea of the subject); it is a matter of whether it adds to or sustracts from the plot and character development. And often they are shoe-horned and may be very distracting.

 

I think it is a simple matter. Before writing a -sex or otherwise- scene, ask yourself: Is this scene necessary? It furthers the plot? It enhances the characters? My story would substantially change if it is removed? If the answers are not, then maybe you should consider removing it or altering it.

 

Only in case, I stress no one is telling people can not write lemons or including smut in their fics. But in the same manner writers have the right to write whatever they want, readers have the right to judge their work, and state whatever troubles they found.

 

By the way, Nate, regarding your new avatar... that is Shadow Man from Mega Man 3, is not it?

 

Hah! I have a Gatchaman/Battle of the Planets avatar! I got you beaten! :)


super-robot-wars-poster.jpg

Do you want to take over the world, huh? Well, you'll have to go through us first!

 


#11 Nate River

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:58 PM

I agree with you, Nate -and I got what you intended to mean-. It is not a matter of whether it is realistic or unrealistic (although many lemons are incredibly unrealistic and absurd, often sexist, and make painfully clear that the author has no idea of the subject); it is a matter of whether it adds to or sustracts from the plot and character development. And often they are shoe-horned and may be very distracting.
 
I think it is a simple matter. Before writing a -sex or otherwise- scene, ask yourself: Is this scene necessary? It furthers the plot? It enhances the characters? My story would substantially change if it is removed? If the answers are not, then maybe you should consider removing it or altering it.
 
Only in case, I stress no one is telling people can not write lemons or including smut in their fics. But in the same manner writers have the right to write whatever they want, readers have the right to judge their work, and state whatever troubles they found.
 
By the way, Nate, regarding your new avatar... that is Shadow Man from Mega Man 3, is not it?
 
Hah! I have a Gatchaman/Battle of the Planets avatar! I got you beaten! :)


Yeah, it's Shadow Man. I remember him kicking my ass all the way back in 1989.

#12 tricksie

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:55 PM

Fist-bump, Jenskott, on the G-force avatar! Love it!

 

Everybody's changing up their pics! Maybe I'm due for a change too! ;)

 

As for the lemons, eh...I generally skip them in stories, but they don't bother me. I like the lemon in KnS Wildness the best — the 'sexual healing' didn't dominate the whole story, happened in the middle of one chapter, and didn't break the flow of the larger story.

 

You could never write a love scene that will make all parties happy. Some readers want more, some want less...some (like me, most of the time) want to skip it altogether. So as a writer your job is to make sure that whatever you write doesn't drag the story down or lead it off into a cul-de-sac from which you have to write yourself out of (by having the characters distracted from the main goal by having to deal with the fall-out of their actions).

 

I also appreciate it when lemon's contained in one chapter. It says the writer cares more about the story at large, and the reader is allowed to skip over it if they wish. The writer is not forcing the reader to accept this new sexual tone to the story.

 

Some writers use lemons as a ratings/readership booster. But I would never go so far as to say the 'sexy times' are the icing on the cake. (In fact, if I see lemons in the summary, that usually turns me off to before I've read the first word.)

 

Rather, the whole cake, all the through to the icing and cherry on top, is reading a good plot-driven story. A lemon scene in a fanfic should be like a buttercream layer hidden deep inside. For some it's a pleasant, delicious surprise. For others, it's a too sweet bite that comes and goes without ruining the rest of the cake.



#13 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:13 PM

As I said, I am not suggesting eliminating the concept. It matters, but everything you describe; none of it requires the fic to enter lemon territory. I simply do not understand the inclusion play-by-play detail of the act itself.
 

You guys are missing my point. I was explicit in saying I am not arguing for the elimination of sex in fanfiction. I am complaining about specific details of the physical act. They can talk about it, their feelings, who is screwing who, none of it bothers me. I simply do not see the need the detail of how they are grabbing each other and removing their clothes. What part of the things you and KnS describe requires that?

You mention gratitous lemons: That is precisely what I am complaining about and did not say I don't read those that deal with the subject. I don't need every agonizing detail of how Sakura/Naruto or whoever shoved their hand down someone else's pants and what they did once it was there. Everything KnS talks about can be accomplished without doing that.

What do I lose by using obvious implication rather than lemon-level detail?
 

 

I apologize for any misunderstanding on my part. I agree that there doesn't need to be agonizing detail to get the point across. Less is more in many aspects of writing, and there is no need to get overzealous and include excessive detail on the act. But of course that doesn't stop a lot of writers from going full out because they know it will bring in the readers. I don't agree with that, and if your reason for writing those kinds of scenes is for popularity, chances are you're writing for the entirely wrong reasons.

 

 

I agree with you, Nate -and I got what you intended to mean-. It is not a matter of whether it is realistic or unrealistic (although many lemons are incredibly unrealistic and absurd, often sexist, and make painfully clear that the author has no idea of the subject); it is a matter of whether it adds to or sustracts from the plot and character development. And often they are shoe-horned and may be very distracting.

 

I think it is a simple matter. Before writing a -sex or otherwise- scene, ask yourself: Is this scene necessary? It furthers the plot? It enhances the characters? My story would substantially change if it is removed? If the answers are not, then maybe you should consider removing it or altering it.

 

Only in case, I stress no one is telling people can not write lemons or including smut in their fics. But in the same manner writers have the right to write whatever they want, readers have the right to judge their work, and state whatever troubles they found.

 

 

I agree, very often lemon scenes are just over done and distract from the story. Many times writers seem to include them just for the sake of attracting more readers and in the process end up hurting the overall quality of the story (if it had any quality to begin with). But this tactic appears to work and those stories tend to be tremendously popular, regardless of how sloppy the actual writing may be.

 

Definitely, if you're thinking of adding any sexual content to your story, you should take the time to evaluate why and weigh the possible pros and cons. Don't do it just because you want more readers or reviews, not if the quality of your story matters to you and if you continue to have doubts then you should probably skip it.



#14 KnS

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:10 PM

Not my intent. To me, "why" is a question any author should ask themselves over and over about any aspect, especially if they have doubts about it's inclusion.

 

Oh, I know.  I understood that part of your post, and totally agree.  Questioning the value of any scene or component when writing a story is not only a good thing but, in my opinion, necessary.  And that was the original point of this thread; LadyofHubris was questioning whether or not to include a lemon in her story.
 
The part of your response that raised the red flag for me was, "Sex via implication or taking the scene far enough that the end result is obvious before shifting scenes has always been adequate for the goal the author was trying to accomplish."
 
Has always been adequate.  The inverse, then, is that if an author takes the scene further it is inadequate -- or over-adequate.  The intended takeaway message seems to be that if you write too explicitly, you have unnecessarily ruined what might have otherwise been an enjoyable read. 
 
Similarly, Night Hawk said, "Lemons should really be their own story, not mixed with a fast paced action or something like that."  So apparently if you mix intimate relationships with action you're doing something wrong.
 
I think both comments are pretty broad generalizations, and seemingly based more upon personal taste than advice founded in constructive critique.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.  We all have things that turn us off, and like I said I'm all for freedom of choice.
 
For example, I simply cannot stand excessive profanity in fics and won't read them.  While often there is no canon precedent regarding sex between characters, we know exactly how they speak and express themselves. Profanity is a deal-breaker for me because not only is it obviously out of character, it's tiresome and often a crutch used to give the dialogue "impact."  A profane word here and there, sure, but too much and it's begins to say more about the author than the characters.  But I digress.
 
Back to the subject, I think it's fair to point out that not all sex scenes are of the super explicit "insert Tab A into Slot B" variety.  I don't like those myself, and don't believe I've ever written one like that.  
 
In the case of my creative decisions for Wilderness, it is in part a coming-of-age story and the initial circumstances have Naruto and Sakura on a mission alone, in a confined space, trying to follow orders at the same time they're trying to work out their feelings for each other.  
 
The backdrop of the war and the sense of life-and-death urgency that surrounds them is, in my opinion, a pretty visceral situation that would lead extremely physical characters into a physical relationship.  I felt a more physical, detailed description of events suited the situation and the characters.  I don't think it's too explicit, but maybe I'm not objective enough.  Or at all, lol.
 
I was just disappointed to read remarks here that are so categorically disparaging and dismissive of intimate scenes.  Basically, the message I'm getting is that no matter how well considered, constructed, fitting, or written an intimate scene is intended to be, it might be tolerated but it's going to be skipped over.
 
In contrast, one of my favorite reviews on my story is a relatively recent one wherein the reviewer specifically commented on my "courage" for not taking the easy way out and actually writing what characters would really do in the situation.  Some like it, some don't.  As tricksie wisely pointed out, you can't make everyone happy.

 

I like the lemon in KnS Wildness the best — the 'sexual healing' didn't dominate the whole story, happened in the middle of one chapter, and didn't break the flow of the larger story.

 

In the interest of full and fair disclosure, the intimacy spans two chapters.   :ermm:


Edited by KnS, 03 March 2014 - 09:29 PM.


#15 Nate River

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:36 PM

Oh, I know.  I understood that part of your post, and totally agree.  Questioning the value of any scene or component when writing a story is not only a good thing but, in my opinion, necessary.  And that was the original point of this thread; LadyofHubris was questioning whether or not to include a lemon in her story.
 
The part of your response that raised the red flag for me was, "Sex via implication or taking the scene far enough that the end result is obvious before shifting scenes has always been adequate for the goal the author was trying to accomplish."
 
Has always been adequate.  The inverse, then, is that if an author takes the scene further it is inadequate -- or over-adequate.  The intended takeaway message seems to be that if you write too explicitly, you have unnecessarily ruined what might have otherwise been an enjoyable read.

I apologize if I upset you, but I mean strictly what I say: it doesn't add anything at least for me. I should have added that fics are not worse for their inclusion. Like anything else, a poorly written sex scene will bring a story down, but so will a poorly written anything. I don't think good stories are rendered poorer or unreadable because of their inclusion, but, as a matter of personal opinion, I've never felt it made a story better either. I never felt I got more from the characters of the story because of it.

Whether the OP think it does will have to be a call she has to make.

I used to read fairly indiscriminately when it came to lemons until about 2006. An author released two versions of the same story, one with the lemon and one without. I read both and came to the conclusion I missed nothing. I've had similar experience with other stories since then.

At the same time, I admit I don't care about the intimate details of how Naruto and Sakura or anyone else have sex. It's not about comfort level. I prosecute sex offenders, so I'm perfectly comfortable talking about such things. It's about lack of interest. It can be dressed up a thousand different ways, it can be hailed as the great writing known to fandom, but I just don't care about it and I don't want to read it.

So, I do apologize about implying that stories are worse off for it. I don't believe that or that an author is wrong for including it. And I should have made clear the portions about my personal belief clearer. But I won't apologize for my opinion regarding lemons. If I read one that includes it, I will not write off a story that includes it simply for having it, but if I do read I will skim past the sex for the the reasons I noted above.

As for writing, I do believe that the author is entitled to do what they want with it. If the OP really wants to include it, then she should. As a matter of personal opinion, I think, as a personal opinion, that it doesn't adds anything even if it's well written.

Regardless, I still state my original advice: If she is unsure then she need to ask why she wants it and two she needs to gauge her skill (in writing) and knowledge on the subject. For those who have experience, it becomes very obvious very quickly if the author knows what they are talking about.
 
 

Back to the subject, I think it's fair to point out that not all sex scenes are of the super explicit "insert Tab A into Slot B" variety.  I don't like those myself, and don't believe I've ever written one like that.


I've heard terms like Lime and Lemon thrown around. I would still and do still read things that would fit my definition of lime. When someone says "Lemon" I think porn-level detail. So, I don't know if we are even working from the same definitions.
 

The backdrop of the war and the sense of life-and-death urgency that surrounds them is, in my opinion, a pretty visceral situation that would lead extremely physical characters into a physical relationship.  I felt a more physical, detailed description of events suited the situation and the characters.  I don't think it's too explicit, but maybe I'm not objective enough.  Or at all, lol.


I've not read it, so I wouldn't know. But as I said above, we may not even be operating under the same definitions of lemon.
 
 

In contrast, one of my favorite reviews on my story is a relatively recent one wherein the reviewer specifically commented on my "courage" for not taking the easy way out and actually writing what characters would really do in the situation.  Some like it, some don't.  As tricksie wisely pointed out, you can't make everyone happy.


I don't know that its a cop-out. For what little I've written, my biggest concern is maximum exposure. I want as many people to see it as possible because I want the maximum amount of feedback. If that's my drive, then as a practical matter, I'd prefer it not be behind an M filter and I would write according, even if I liked lemons.

#16 KnS

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:00 AM

I apologize if I upset you, 

 

It's very nice of you to apologize, Nate, but you didn't upset me.  Life is too short to get worked up about stuff like this.

 

I was just sticking up for writers -- something I usually do.  In general we get a lot more criticism than we do support.  It's always open season on a writer's creative preferences, while a reader's preferences are assumed to be inviolate.  At the very least I consider them equal.  

 

It's about lack of interest. It can be dressed up a thousand different ways, it can be hailed as the great writing known to fandom, but I just don't care about it and I don't want to read it.

 
Fair enough.  Everyone should be free to choose.
 

I've heard terms like Lime and Lemon thrown around. I would still and do still read things that would fit my definition of lime. When someone says "Lemon" I think porn-level detail. So, I don't know if we are even working from the same definitions.

 
Good point.  I don't think we are working from the same definitions, and that is no doubt my fault.  The whole lemon/lime thing is unique to anime/manga fan fiction, and despite my long history with various literature and film fandoms I'm still a total square peg in this one.  The Naruto manga will be over and the fandom dispersed before I ever get the hang of all the terms and the way things work. 
 

I don't know that its a cop-out. For what little I've written, my biggest concern is maximum exposure. I want as many people to see it as possible because I want the maximum amount of feedback. If that's my drive, then as a practical matter, I'd prefer it not be behind an M filter and I would write according, even if I liked lemons.

 
Well, like so many things, whether or not it's a cop out is in the eye of the beholder.  I only mentioned it because the reviewer's comments were a good example of how opinions can be completely opposite on the same subject.
 
It's my opinion, as well as my practice, that as a writer I cannot write to maximize feedback or to avoid a filter.  I cannot write according to what I believe readers want, or what might be the most popular.  I have to write the story I have imagined, and write it the way I believe it will be most effectively told.  If my storytelling decisions turn some people off, those are the breaks.


#17 Nate River

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:02 PM

It's very nice of you to apologize, Nate, but you didn't upset me.  Life is too short to get worked up about stuff like this.
 
I was just sticking up for writers -- something I usually do.  In general we get a lot more criticism than we do support.  It's always open season on a writer's creative preferences, while a reader's preferences are assumed to be inviolate.  At the very least I consider them equal.


I don't ever mean to dictate content. There are some subject matters (Dark/Evil/kitten Naruto, for example) I won't touch. If people wish to write, that's fine. I just won't read it.

I simply wish to give my honest opinion about all aspect, including content. But when reviewing, I like to be open about how I feel and the author can decide if I letting my personal preferences effect what I say and disregard if they feel it's that. I'm trying to review more than I used to and I want to be complete, including disclosing how I feel about content so the author can take it all into account.
 

It's my opinion, as well as my practice, that as a writer I cannot write to maximize feedback or to avoid a filter.  I cannot write according to what I believe readers want, or what might be the most popular.  I have to write the story I have imagined, and write it the way I believe it will be most effectively told.  If my storytelling decisions turn some people off, those are the breaks.


To me, there is a difference between a barrier like an M filter and pandering. I think pandering is a sure fire way to write crap because you trend to lowest common denominator. And, as you say, you can't please everyone. It kills me to watch polling in stories. I understand taking suggestions, but the author should, at the end, be making the call based on what they want from the story, not scrounging around for popular opinion and then trying to make it fit.

I would never suggest doing so. I consider myself in fledgling stage and I want feedback because I know I have my own problems. If it gets behind an M filter I am artificially cutting off all those under 18 (and those over who don't like lemons) who don't lie about their age regardless of all other content.

It's just a cost/benefit for me. Everyone will have their own analysis and goals.




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