211 replies to this topic

[kirabook]

Every time they post that, someone should just post the databook and other such evidence in reply. XD As I said before, that person is clearly not here to actually debate or accept any facts, so I don't know why people bother.

[lupina]

I did that for a while.

[winter-serenade]

I just want to hear their rationale as to why they think Naruto didn't love Sakura. That was a pretty big claim, so you should naturally have evidence, right?

[NarutoUzumaki01]

I dont agree with these statements. Not one bit. Heres why.

There has been evidence in the databooks and manga itself that Naruto has loved Sakura. The parallels, the way he acts around her, Hakus words When you have something special that you want to protect, only then can you become truly strong, the fight with Gaara.

When he made the Promise of a Lifetime to Sakura, the emotions he had made it clear as day that he was in love. When he said I know how much pain youre in because of Sasuke. I can understand. The way Naruto's face was hidden indicated hidden feelings. He could understand because he too had an unrequited love: for Sakura. And thats only in Part 1.

In Part 2, the moment that sticks out to me is Sais flashback, when he asked Naruto his feelings towards Sakura. The only reason Naruto didnt confess to Sakura was because he didnt keep his promise of bringing Sasuke back the day of the Valley of the End fight.

As for Hinata being shoehorned in, she was. I did some digging and it turns out she has only been in less than 80 panels in the whole 700 chapters of the series. It was hardly developed early on. Plus, the fact she was suddenly made into such an important character is more than enough to confirm she was shoehorned. For the sake of fan service, of course.

 

I just want to hear their rationale as to why they think Naruto didn't love Sakura. That was a pretty big claim, so you should naturally have evidence, right?

Because it was told in the last, that he didn't love her. The thing is, Analyzer don't even bother to know what what source material said about Naruto. Blindly follows "author said so" missing all the things that was was implied or clearly told to readers for years. You're only going to read twisted facts, claiming of one's opinion as fact and totall denial of any retcons.

Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 12 October 2017 - 12:26 PM.

[winter-serenade]

Because it was told in the last, that he didn't love her. The thing is, Analyzer don't even bother to know what what source material said about Naruto. Blindly follows "author said so" missing all the things that was was implied or clearly told to readers for years. You're only going to read twisted facts, claiming of one's opinion as fact and totall denial of any retcons.

The Last is full of contradictions and contrivances. For example, Jinchuriki can't be in genjutsu. I don't consider it canon, despite Kishimoto saying it was. It's just too unbelievable and ridiculous. However, this is my opinion.

[winter-serenade]

Furthermore, what Sakura said, that Naruto only liked her because of his rivalry with Sasuke is equally contrived.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

The Last is full of contradictions and contrivances. For example, Jinchuriki can't be in genjutsu. I don't consider it canon, despite Kishimoto saying it was. It's just too unbelievable and ridiculous. However, this is my opinion.

 

Furthermore, what Sakura said, that Naruto only liked her because of his rivalry with Sasuke is equally contrived.

Just watch.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

If Jinchuriki can't be in a genjutsu, then Naruto would have been immune to the infinite Tsukiyomi, and so would Killer Bee, who still had at least some of the Eight tails in him. There's precedence of this being a threat, so it's not at all unbelievable. 

 

Respectfully, we can't nit-pick what is and isn't canon. 

 

 

To pre-face this response, it's canon that Naruto didn't love Sakura. I think what is really the debate of things is -if- that makes sense, or if the information of that was clear, or if it indeed contradicts earlier information. Even if it blatantly contradicts (Which many DC and Marvel comic books famously do in their re-launches of their universe), it's still canon. Ignoring canon doesn't make it not canon. Saying it "isn't canon to me" doesn't change it either, canon doesn't work that way.

 

Not saying that's being done, Though I saw AHK say as much and frankly, AHK, it's not something that can be debated. Not even saying this to be mean, but I want to start with that as a pre-face, because I think that is at least important to acknowledge. (Saying you wish it wasn't canon though, perfectly valid!)

 

I've seen two databook panels, one that doesn't explicitly state love, but sure, you could have that interpretation around the time it came out, and the other with a translation I haven't verified, but also does not explicitly mean romantic love, but you could imply that, at least at the time. They are both from extra-canonical material, but they are relevant evidence for an interpretation of love, assuming the second databook panel I saw is reliably translated. I'll give them credit as credible points of a love interpretation theory, but they don't work alone. 

 

Unfortunately, in the manga, parallels are a weak argument. For example,  Sakura is like Kushina, which, was one of the actually stated Red Herrings by Kishimoto. The issue with this is it does -not- mean that NS is like MK, as Naruto is also paralleled to Kushina, and he does, even more so than Sakura does. Of his Minato aspects, he has his hair, essentially. If anything, MK probably parallels NH better, with the Yin Yang, initial less than favorable thought of the Yin member, a red-string of fate element, and both have a shockimg moment of revelation that changes their thoughts of the Yin member. 

 

Going over the other cited parralels: 

 

Then the team of three parralels: Team Kakashi with Team Minato with Team Hiruzen, and more loosely, the Ame Orphans. The Ame Orphans doesn't really work, because Yahiko (Yang) liked Konan (Yin), and vice versa. Nagato is also Yin, so unlike the other three groups, we have a clear double Yin, and a clear relationship. Even after Yahiko's death, Konan/Nagato is never implied to be romantic.

 

On Team Hiruzen, we have Medic Yang Tsunade liking dark past prodigy with Not naturally talented guy Jirayai liking her. This one ends with Jirayai becoming a womanizer, Tsunade's crush fading and coming to love Dan. 

 

On Team Minato, we have Medic Rin (Could be Yang or Yin, unclear) liking dark past prodigy Kakashi, with not naturally talented guy Obito liking her. Here, Rin dies while loving Kakashi, and Obito goes crazy from her death. 

 

Lastly, on Team Kakashi, we have Medic Yang Sakura liking dark past prodigy Sasuke, while Not Naturally talented guy Naruto likes her. This one ends with Naruto's crush fading and ending up with Hinata, while Sakura's crush becomes love for Sasuke, and Sasuke returns those affections.

 

Now that the parralel of Not Naturally Talented guy/Medic Girl/Dark Past Guy is laid out, what do you notice? 

 

-None- of them end up the same. None of them provide any real evidence of why any one pairing wold happen, let alone NS. 

 

Going to the PoL thing, I think the detail missed is that Naruto was going to get Sasuke regardless of Sakura or not in this scene. I like to note that Sasuke is the goal both Sakura and Naruto have in common, which ties in with chapter 3, here, and the Land of Iron Arc, where, Sasuke is literally a driver, scenes happening because of the character, despite him not even being there. But you -could- interpret it as love, yes, except it's not conclusively that. Naruto never weighs in what he feels for Sakura, he doesn't himself state the depth of it. So at most it is a valid interpretation for the moment, but it's not the only possible scenario.

 

It's the same with the Sai point, really. There's no disputing that Naruto has a crush on Sakura, that is canonical true. I think many assumed that Naruto would confess romantic love post war, but it's not ever weighted the love is that deep. Naruto's feelings really don't shift towards Sakura from how they were in part one, I would argue they are even less utilized to almost absent by the time we get to last two hundred chapters. Most of all when the Sai part is cited, I find we disregard the immediate aftermath of this, the Fake Confession, which is the sinking of the ship, so to speak. I've read claims of OOC in this thread, but I think that only works if you twist it to make your sole interpretation the valid one, and of course, have a belief you know the characters better than the author.

 

Lastly, on the shoe-horned part of Hinata, she was always one of the more important side-characters, next to SHikamaru. Counting panels ignores what those panels are doing, I.E., the shocking revelation that has Naruto adjust his perception of her takes place in part one, and so does the blood vow he gives to her, and the first time Hinata saves him from despair. I think it's often missed that after Naruto's victory against Neji, he looks for Hinata in the stands. I.E., there is credible interpretation of at least some level of affection being returned. I think throwing out panel count diminishes the impact of how big her moments in the Pain Arc were as well, or how they understood eachother through their eyes, and again, gave eachother comfort. To conclusively counter shoe-horn, Hinata's little speech as they run towards Naruto's location is a clear foreshadow to 700. I could go deeper into the NH development and lay it out more clearly, though it would easily make this post twice as long. 

 

I.E., in those 80 panels, or whatever the true number is, there is significant meaty moments and importance in them. Thus I argue that NH is one of the most developed bonds. It's not ever contrived (Poor Naruto and Sasuke's bonds) and really has that foundation carved in part one.

 

This interpretation is made valid by the end, and the interpretation that Naruto loves Sakura made invalid. 

 

Literature, Manga, it's great, you can have different interpretations of things, especially as a series is ongoing, until conclusive information points otherwise. It's not "glorified fan-fiction", that would require not acknowledging or following the material. So certainly, you can have a theory, post-end, that Naruto loves Sakura, and Sakura was beginning to return her feelings, but once you reach the end, you know that theory is conclusively false. You can find those moments that weakened your theory and know they were the signs of that intention. You can ask why the writing does it, really get deep into the skeleton and critically think.

 

[ThroughWithLove]

I loves me some NaruSaku so much that I'm gonna come to a NaruSaku fansite and spend 99.99999999999% of my time ranting and raving about why it never had any chance of happening, how Naruto never loved Sakura and how 99.9% of the people on said fansite are delusional.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 12 October 2017 - 04:29 PM.

[Kagomaru]

I loves me some NaruSaku so much that I'm gonna come to a NaruSaku fansite and spend 99.99999999999% of my time ranting and raving about why it never had any chance of happening, how Naruto never loved Sakura and how 99.9% of the people on said fansite are delusional.

I don't understand why she maintains that stance.  I mean, she has to be critically aware at this juncture that none of the members who have read her posts gives credence to her facade that she is a NaruSaku fan playing "Devil's Advocate" since she's plainly exposed that she doesn't even understand why we support NaruSaku to begin with.  Part of me is tempted to assume she's just putting on a performance for the sake of the NaruHina fanatics in other forums that like to peer in occasionally and ridicule our posts to allow them to feel vindicated. I can see it playing out:

 

"See, see?  Even a member of that horrid fandom can comprehend why the NaruHina is superior and that it was endorsed by Kishimoto from the beginning."

Edited by Kagomaru, 12 October 2017 - 06:44 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Canonically? No, Naruto didn't love Sakura, -at least- in the sense of romantic love, I.E., pre-Last, he never felt love before. He only understood the concept.

Well, then you need to tell Kishimoto and Shonen Jump that because accroding to their official databooks....they say that "Naruto loves Sakura." Proof?

Here

Databooks

More Databooks

And you can't say that it is a mistranslation because the same kanji is used to describe Karin's relationship to Sasuke and WE KNOW she was in Love with Sasuke. The same Kanji is also used when showing Ino to Sasuke and even Sakura to Sasuke. So how can you say that that is one way and one is another when clearly they show this ON THE SAME PAGE.

We also have if you notice that Naruto has no arrow going towards Hinata in that says that either. Instead you have an arrow that goes from Hinata to Naruto...NOT with the words "love," but more something along the lines of "infatuation."

 

Do you know what that means? I am going to post from wikipedia
"Cox says that infatuation can be distinguished from romantic love only when looking back on a particular interest. Infatuation may also develop into a mature love. Goldstein and Brandon describe infatuation as the first stage of a relationship before developing into a mature intimacy. Phillips describes how the illusions of infatuations inevitably lead to disappointment when learning the truth about a lover. It is an object of extravagant, short-lived passion or temporary love of an adolescent.

And yes, it has sources backing it so you can't say that it is fake.

Infatuation is NOT love and they make a clear distinction. Can it become love? Yes, but it is not the same thing. More often than not, infatuation leads to nothing or a realization that what you are smitten with is not real.

Again, a "crush" so to speak.

Why would official soruce from Shonen Jump and Kishimoto use different Kanji? Hmmm....I wonder why....

You also have times when Shonen jump talked about Valentine's day and heroes with their love interest. Guess who they show with Naruto?.....SAKURA. Every single time.


This was one of the Valentine's inserts....look who Naruto is thinking of? Sakura....Look who Ichigo is thinking of? Orihime.

 

So Shonen Jump itself saw the couples and this is them showing who they think is the love interest. This not only PROVES that Naruto loves Sakura, but how everyone knew....even the publishers....that Naruto loved Sakura.

So I am sorry, but this is one you can not fight against no matter how much you want to.

Everyone knew....from the publisher, to other mangaka, to Junko, to even Kishimoto's own wife....

You need to stop this.

You want us to accept the ending and blah blah balh...meanwhile you can't even accept one little fact that 90% of the fanbase knew. Even radical NH fans knew because they saw us as a threat and the more you keep looking at the history of Naruto...the more it becomes clear how everything became a retcon. Naruto loving Hinata is a retcon. Always has been...always will be.




 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 12 October 2017 - 05:02 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

Well, then you need to tell Kishimoto and Shonen Jump that because accroding to their official databooks....they say that "Naruto loves Sakura." Proof?

Here

Databooks

More Databooks

And you can't say that it is a mistranslation because the same kanji is used to describe Karin's relationship to Sasuke and WE KNOW she was in Love with Sasuke. The same Kanji is also used when showing Ino to Sasuke and even Sakura to Sasuke. So how can you say that that is one way and one is another when clearly they show this ON THE SAME PAGE.

We also have if you notice that Naruto has no arrow going towards Hinata in that says that either. Instead you have an arrow that goes from Hinata to Naruto...NOT with the words "love," but more something along the lines of "infatuation."

 

Do you know what that means? I am going to post from wikipedia
"Cox says that infatuation can be distinguished from romantic love only when looking back on a particular interest. Infatuation may also develop into a mature love. Goldstein and Brandon describe infatuation as the first stage of a relationship before developing into a mature intimacy. Phillips describes how the illusions of infatuations inevitably lead to disappointment when learning the truth about a lover. It is an object of extravagant, short-lived passion or temporary love of an adolescent.

And yes, it has sources backing it so you can't say that it is fake.

Infatuation is NOT love and they make a clear distinction. Can it become love? Yes, but it is not the same thing. More often than not, infatuation leads to nothing or a realization that what you are smitten with is not real.

Again, a "crush" so to speak.

Why would official soruce from Shonen Jump and Kishimoto use different Kanji? Hmmm....I wonder why....

You also have times when Shonen jump talked about Valentine's day and heroes with their love interest. Guess who they show with Naruto?.....SAKURA. Every single time.


This was one of the Valentine's inserts....look who Naruto is thinking of? Sakura....Look who Ichigo is thinking of? Orihime.

 

So Shonen Jump itself saw the couples and this is them showing who they think is the love interest. This not only PROVES that Naruto loves Sakura, but how everyone knew....even the publishers....that Naruto loved Sakura.

So I am sorry, but this is one you can not fight against no matter how much you want to.

Everyone knew....from the publisher, to other mangaka, to Junko, to even Kishimoto's own wife....

You need to stop this.

You want us to accept the ending and blah blah balh...meanwhile you can't even accept one little fact that 90% of the fanbase knew. Even radical NH fans knew because they saw us as a threat and the more you keep looking at the history of Naruto...the more it becomes clear how everything became a retcon. Naruto loving Hinata is a retcon. Always has been...always will be.




 

 

The kanji symbol used for Hinata is more akin to admiration from the standpoint of a Western audience.

[James S Cassidy]

 

The kanji symbol used for Hinata is more akin to admiration from the standpoint of a Western audience.

Admiration....infatuation....still not love either way.

Up until Naruto the Last...there is nothing to suggest that Naruto and Hinata's relationship was anything more than platonic. I can't stand this blatent ignorance of Naruto's feelings in all of this. Are men not allowed to have feelings of their own? Are men's emotions not important enough?

I mean, I love how society works today.
If a guy doesn't love or want to be in a relationship with a "nice girl" who has the hots for him....he is considered rude and how dare he ignore her.
If a girl doesn't love or want to be in a relationship with a nice guy who loves her.....then she is a independant woman and the guy is just a pig who was after sex.
 

 

SJ Argument is silly

 

Every single one of your arguments is silly....this is why no one takes you seriously.

 

In the words of Sasuke: "You're useless"

 

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 12 October 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

Admiration....infatuation....still not love either way.

Up until Naruto the Last...there is nothing to suggest that Naruto and Hinata's relationship was anything more than platonic. I can't stand this blatent ignorance of Naruto's feelings in all of this. Are men not allowed to have feelings of their own? Are men's emotions not important enough?

I mean, I love how society works today.
If a guy doesn't love or want to be in a relationship with a "nice girl" who has the hots for him....he is considered rude and how dare he ignore her.
If a girl doesn't love or want to be in a relationship with a nice guy.....then she is a independant woman and the guy is just a pig who was after sex.

 

 

I think the idea, at least initially is that Hinata looks up to Naruto, wishes to be like him and greatly respects him. And when you stop and think about it, it makes sense and explains why Hinata was initially portrayed as such a minor one-note character and why it feels so awkward and contrived to elevate her into a fullblown love interest later on.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 12 October 2017 - 05:16 PM.

[LuckyChi7]

hearing... Until Chapter 700 NH was platonic and now it isn't...  

 

 

Me: 

 

Edited by LuckyChi7, 12 October 2017 - 05:23 PM.

[winter-serenade]

It changed. It was -foreshadowed- to change.

For clarification, when was it foreshadowed?

[Illnevergiveup3]

 

Thank you for the applause, I guess. 

 

boooooooooo!!!!

[NarutoUzumaki01]

For clarification, when was it foreshadowed?

80 panels, half of wich Hinata only looked at Naruto. Yeah, Analyzer has "specific" perception of events in manga. 

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

I like that the number of panels constantly changes, I've seen 38, now there's 80. Panel counting only and not seeing what these panels do (Critical thinking) is diminishing the impact you should be getting out of it. A lot of times the development impacts both the characters involved and the manga. 

 

Further, I was rather specific: Chapter 573, 615 does this a bit too.

 

. 

Stop with critical thinkig, you don't have it. Stop spelling kitten. 

[Illnevergiveup3]

Sai: So Naruto who do you love?

 

Naruto- SAKURA-CHAN! TEBAYO!

 

*Kakashi notices Hinata standing behind a tree in the distance.*

 

Kakashi: Hmmm...What about Hinata?

 

Naruto: Who?

 

That about sums it up to me. 

Edited by Illnevergiveup3, 12 October 2017 - 07:01 PM.