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#28521 James S Cassidy

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 08:31 PM

so crazy to throw away a whole series like that. the time since it ended doesn't give a better perspective. still just crazy.

Indeed, and all because Kishimoto did not have the balls to write it himself.

"I was too embarrassed."
-Kishimoto.

Kishimoto confirms himself...he didn't write NH. Never has, never did. "Planned from the beginning" my foot.
 


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#28522 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 08:44 PM

Indeed, and all because Kishimoto did not have the balls to write it himself.

"I was too embarrassed."
-Kishimoto.

Kishimoto confirms himself...he didn't write NH. Never has, never did. "Planned from the beginning" my foot.
 

 

He just was too drawn into the popularity to think that his words and actions have consequences, but there's also the fact he was still hurting from his dad's passing to be able to think for himself.



#28523 James S Cassidy

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 08:55 PM

 

He just was too drawn into the popularity to think that his words and actions have consequences, but there's also the fact he was still hurting from his dad's passing to be able to think for himself.

I guess, but no matter what a writer should never just abandon his work like that. If need be, use it to express your grief, but never abuse it like you're a drunk father beating their child who just wanted some attention.

We, as the fans, deserved better than that.


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#28524 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 09:04 PM

I guess, but no matter what a writer should never just abandon his work like that. If need be, use it to express your grief, but never abuse it like you're a drunk father beating their child who just wanted some attention.

We, as the fans, deserved better than that.

 

I hear that. I feel deep down that that's what the death song for Naruto as a series and such was was when he lost his dad and that led him to just give in, rather than to focus like you said.



#28525 James S Cassidy

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 09:45 PM

 

I hear that. I feel deep down that that's what the death song for Naruto as a series and such was was when he lost his dad and that led him to just give in, rather than to focus like you said.


Oh it is obvious. After his father died he stopped caring altogether. His father died and he felt bad working on Naruto than spending time with his kids. Which is noble idea, but in the end it just....caused so much damage.

He should have taken a hiatus to grief, take some time, and then come back. Many mangaka did that and there was no reason why he couldn't. Unless the studio pressured him to keep going.

I know the market in Japan is tough, but it can't be AS tough now if even the Beserk manga writer can take a 5 year hiatus or something


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#28526 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 12:31 AM

Yeah, but it doesn't matter if you bring that up because the people don't care about that fact, and they will always think Hinata was always better. That is why Kishu is to blame for this because he a chance to stop it early but decided to keep it up to the point he caved and gave them what the illogical fans wanted.
To be fair, alot people saw the naked Hinata scene when they were kids but it did become an obsession. Unfortunately there is a lot of lolicon obsession in a anime nowadays. It isn't hard to find.

 pretty sure there were older people watching Naruto at that time probably over 20 so my point stands with the nude hinata scene, plus I point it out cause watching linkara for years you learn stuff. 

13,728 pages (This is including Gaiden)
484 pages  is how many Hinata was in
That is about 3.5% of the manga she makes an appearance in.
Naruto and Hinata have 38 pages (not including volume cover) together. Not interactions...just of them together on screen. About half that is them actually interacting.
HOWEVER, 1 page is a chapter cover art and 7 pages are of them during the war...which was in production during the Naruto the Last movie. So It is hard counting these pages as legit since...well, if the movie was in production and it was already established as canon by that time, then these "developments" are fake and are merely their to force interaction to try and show "NH belong with each other."
So that is 30 pages of legit NH scenes.
30 pages?
That is 0.2% of the manga total.
How can anyone in god's name say that this couple "BELONGS TOGETHER" when they have no interaction other than 0.2% of the manga entirely?
Sakura and Naruto?
That is so much better
She is in like 11,000-12,000 pages easy and NS interactions are like 80-90% of the manga total. I don't have accurate numbers, but I don't think I need to at this point. It would be easier counting the pages Sakura is NOT in or counting the pages NS DOESN'T interact to be more accurate.
And of course Sasuke and Naruto is like 90%
Again, just guessing seeing how most of the chapters are in.
Thinking about it, Sakura might actually be in more pages than Sasuke AND has had more interactions with Naruto than NH, SK, and every single other couple in existence in the manga combined. Think about that. Naruto and Sakura have been on screen together LONGER than any other Naruto pairing has in the manga combined.
Hell, IchiRuki and IchiHime have a better pairing battle ratio than Naruto's pairings. It is just not fair, but we are to be believed that this was all a red herring. Yeup...90% of the manga is NOT CANON, ladies and gentlemen.
Edit: By "interaction" I mean romantic and non-romantic alike. NH barely has any romantic interaction, if at all. Maybe 6 total of romantic interaction or undertone including during the war arc. 2 pages if you take out the war arc pages. 2 pages of legit romantic interaction. One being the Pein Arc confession and the other being MAYBE the beginning of the war. This is why they ONLY bring up the Pein arc when talking about NH romance because that is the ONLY time NH got legit romance interaction. 1 page.
 
 

Acknowledge it? According to Naruto the Last, Naruto thought NOTHING of it until 2-3 years after the fact and only then after a genjutsu.
This is from the canon itself. Naruto doesn't understand love, remember?

Oh you counted Gaiden in that too was hinata even in that I can't remember.
Again well done James pointing all this out you do a great job at it. Way to make 90% of your series pointless kishi you must be so proud, I'm starting to think kishi is magna version of Frank Miller.

#28527 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 12:34 AM

Oh it is obvious. After his father died he stopped caring altogether. His father died and he felt bad working on Naruto than spending time with his kids. Which is noble idea, but in the end it just....caused so much damage.
He should have taken a hiatus to grief, take some time, and then come back. Many mangaka did that and there was no reason why he couldn't. Unless the studio pressured him to keep going.
I know the market in Japan is tough, but it can't be AS tough now if even the Beserk manga writer can take a 5 year hiatus or something

Or togasi taking a long time with hunter x hunter.

#28528 DrK

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 12:42 AM

13,728 pages (This is including Gaiden)

484 pages  is how many Hinata was in
That is about 3.5% of the manga she makes an appearance in.

Naruto and Hinata have 38 pages (not including volume cover) together. Not interactions...just of them together on screen. About half that is them actually interacting.
HOWEVER, 1 page is a chapter cover art and 7 pages are of them during the war...which was in production during the Naruto the Last movie. So It is hard counting these pages as legit since...well, if the movie was in production and it was already established as canon by that time, then these "developments" are fake and are merely their to force interaction to try and show "NH belong with each other."

You know, I'm slightly blown away by how simple and effective that argument is.
 

"But NS was a sibling relationship and Sakura always loved Sasuke!"... Because that REALLY MAKES SENSE to write your manga that way!

 

The throwing away or destroying something you are frustrated by is a really childish impulse. I wish he didn't do that but what other explanation is there?.



#28529 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 02:15 AM

You know, I'm slightly blown away by how simple and effective that argument is.
 

"But NS was a sibling relationship and Sakura always loved Sasuke!"... Because that REALLY MAKES SENSE to write your manga that way!

 

The throwing away or destroying something you are frustrated by is a really childish impulse. I wish he didn't do that but what other explanation is there?.

 

The only reason it was done is due to Kishimoto letting his grief get to him as well as probably pressure from Studio Pierrot, even if we don't know ALL the deets.

 

Also, that whole NaruSaku having a sibling relationship thing didn't hold water initially, given we saw Sakura was showing some signs of possible romantic feelings for Naruto due to his actions, like with Zabuza, or how she smiled when she learned that Naruto saved her from Gaara, not Sasuke like she initially thought.



#28530 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 04:12 AM

The only reason it was done is due to Kishimoto letting his grief get to him as well as probably pressure from Studio Pierrot, even if we don't know ALL the deets.
 
Also, that whole NaruSaku having a sibling relationship thing didn't hold water initially, given we saw Sakura was showing some signs of possible romantic feelings for Naruto due to his actions, like with Zabuza, or how she smiled when she learned that Naruto saved her from Gaara, not Sasuke like she initially thought.

Or her crying seeing Naruto in his 4 tails mode begging him to stop and later how she can only do the little things for him.
Heck I'm still waiting for when sp makes it so Hinata was on team 7 the whole time and Naruto saved hinata from Garra in the chunin exams. Basically replacing every Sakura thing with hinata, you know they'd do that.

#28531 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 05:38 AM

Or her crying seeing Naruto in his 4 tails mode begging him to stop and later how she can only do the little things for him.
Heck I'm still waiting for when sp makes it so Hinata was on team 7 the whole time and Naruto saved hinata from Garra in the chunin exams. Basically replacing every Sakura thing with hinata, you know they'd do that.

 

Considering they also did the whole scary mom thing with Hinata when that should be Sakura's schtick!



#28532 DrK

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 03:05 PM

 

The only reason it was done is due to Kishimoto letting his grief get to him as well as probably pressure from Studio Pierrot, even if we don't know ALL the deets.

 

Also, that whole NaruSaku having a sibling relationship thing didn't hold water initially, given we saw Sakura was showing some signs of possible romantic feelings for Naruto due to his actions, like with Zabuza, or how she smiled when she learned that Naruto saved her from Gaara, not Sasuke like she initially thought.

He bothered to portray her as being touched by that which would not have been significant in a platonic sense as she had already come to respect him. She was starting to allow herself to become invested in him. It shows a progression of her feelings which is so typical as to be cliche and even slightly maudlin. As an author one does not go out of their way to be sentimental unless it fulfills a purpose that they (or at least their characters) find important.

 

Kishi very rarely took the time to do this with Hinata. I don't know why he did with Pain but that was the WORST mistake he ever made.



#28533 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 09:06 PM

You know something funny I was rewatching TyranntX videos, and it came to my mind that if you did kill Hinata off in her fight with Neji, what would change really? I mean, really guys throughout  Naruto, what would change if Hinata wasn't there?

 

Nothing.

 

Chūnin Exams (Arc)

 

Once Hinata is dead, nothing significant happens. The only thing that would happen is Hinata not talking with Naruto that she had, which Naruto never needed since he saw what Neji did. And if he didn't see the fight well, so many others that can warn Naruto that Neji will kill him to win.
 
Konoha Crush (Arc)
 
Hinata falls asleep and plays no part at all. The same would happen if she died as well, and people say she is more useful than Sakura why?
 

Search for Tsunade

 

Again Hinata plays no part. She stays in Konoha doing nothing, not even helping Naruto has her fans love to say, what else can I say on this arc? I mean no Hinata that plays any part.
 

Sasuke Recovery Mission

 

Once again, Hinata does nothing even Sakura does something, and that's telling everyone what Sasuke is doing without that well, I'll get into that in another post.
 
So yeah all thought part one since her death nothing that big would change at all this is how pointless Hinata is in the manga and the whole of Naruto as you kill her off in her fight with Neji nothing changes at all. 

Edited by TheFirstEvil100, 05 February 2020 - 09:07 PM.


#28534 DrK

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 09:41 PM

So yeah all thought part one since her death nothing that big would change at all this is how pointless Hinata is in the manga and the whole of Naruto as you kill her off in her fight with Neji nothing changes at all. 

Well you could argue that if Neji kills her then Neji's character arc would have to change drastically. But Neji himself is not very important either.

 

Actually that's very interesting. If Neji kills her then Naruto would have to move on knowing that he couldn't save her and as a result that he couldn't save everyone. There is his experience with Haku but Haku was an enemy at first and Haku also chose to die... While Hinata was a relative innocent.

 

Also Sakura and likely others were aware enough to understand that Hinata was only fighting due to Naruto egging her on. So he would end up understanding that her death was actually his fault.

 

This could make him less likely to feel like he could save EVERYONE and there's a real chance he ends up killing Gaara (which ironically would mean Neji would die anyway)... And people might disagree with this, but if he kills Gaara, I think it's actually quite likely that he kills Sasuke (at VOTE1 or later)...

 

I think his attitude would be that if he couldn't save Gaara, the one person who suffered like him (in fact far worse), he would see himself as entirely incapable of saving Sasuke and possibly see him as not even deserving of the effort.

 

And then Sakura probably wouldn't fall in love with him... But I guess that didn't happen anyway!

 

Or maybe something else would happen. But I think it would make a big difference if Neji kills her at any rate... Since his idealism would have actually CAUSED her death. You could definitely remove her or have her die after that arc (in some way that is not Naruto's fault) and it probably wouldn't really do anything. 


Edited by DrK, 05 February 2020 - 10:10 PM.


#28535 Phantom_999

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 12:42 AM

He bothered to portray her as being touched by that which would not have been significant in a platonic sense as she had already come to respect him. She was starting to allow herself to become invested in him. It shows a progression of her feelings which is so typical as to be cliche and even slightly maudlin. As an author one does not go out of their way to be sentimental unless it fulfills a purpose that they (or at least their characters) find important.

 

Kishi very rarely took the time to do this with Hinata. I don't know why he did with Pain but that was the WORST mistake he ever made.

 

Exactly. I've said that  a lot of times already. there was no focus on Hinata or her feelings. there was barely any if at all sentimentality shown either by herself or together with Naruto regarding her feelings and it goes unanswered and noticed for hundreds of chapters at a time, that any one with not a shred of obsessive attachment to Hinata herself would even bother worrying about her or her crush on Naruto because there was no effort in the writing to address it. If there was, she'd appear WAY more than she did in the manga and would interact more with Naruto hang around him LIKE A  FRIEND. No, her shyness is not the issue as she does not avoid Kiba or Shino. Point is her character would be of some significance to Naruto himself if not to the story as a whole is she was to be Naruto's girlfriend/wife. Didn't happen, so both non shippers and non-NH shippers alike scratch their heads as to how and why "Hinata won".  


Edited by Phantom_999, 17 February 2020 - 01:55 AM.

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#28536 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 03:03 AM

 

Exactly. I've said that  a lot of times already. there was no focus on Hinata or her feelings. there was barely any if at all sentimentality shown either by herself or together with Naruto regarding her feelings and it goes unanswered and noticed for hundreds of chapters at a time that, that any one with not a shred of obsessive attachment to Hinata herself would even bother worrying about her or her crush on Naruto because there was no effort in the writing to address it. If there was, she'd appear WAY more than she did in the manga and would interact more with Naruto hang around him LIKE A  FRIEND. No, her shyness is not the issue as she does not avoid Kiba or Shino. Point is her character would be of some significance to Naruto himself if not to the story as a whole is she was to be Naruto's girlfriend/wife. Didn't happen, so both non shippers and non-NH shippers alike scratch their heads as to how and why "Hinata won".  

 

Pretty much, Phantom. And the fact is, we also know if Hinata really did love Naruto, she would have tried to approach him when he was lonely. Sure, Sakura can be guilty of it too, but at least he had a good idea of Naruto's plight as a Jinchuriki when Team Kakashi reunited to save Gaara from the Akatsuki, and how she cried her eyes out for him, even if he brushed it off just because of wanting to save Gaara.

 

It just shows even if Hinata "won", it's a pyrrhic victory because it was done out of bias, and pity.



#28537 Nostradamus

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 09:45 AM

You know, I'm slightly blown away by how simple and effective that argument is.
 

"But NS was a sibling relationship and Sakura always loved Sasuke!"... Because that REALLY MAKES SENSE to write your manga that way!

 

The throwing away or destroying something you are frustrated by is a really childish impulse. I wish he didn't do that but what other explanation is there?.

As much as I want to point my finger at Kishi for all of this because he's the writer and he's the face of the Naruto brand. I can't.

He had a part in all of this of course to a degree, but I can't put all the blame on him. It was a series of events that led to the destruction that happened. From the very beginning SP showing their biased and we've seen the effects not only on the studio but also to some of the fans, to Kishi's higher ups who only cared about making more money without even knowing the product they sell, to the idiotic fanbase that demanded garbage, to the loss that Kishi suffered when he lost his father and made him think about his own life, also from what I was able to read from him he isn't a strong person when it comes to someone else telling what to do. He just agrees with it. Probably because he likes other people liking his work or giving him any attention.

It all gathered together in one giant snowball and eventually it became too big and it had a wall in its path. And that wall was the ending. It had to end. And everything put together resulted in disaster.


                         CZSn9hA.jpg
 
Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.


#28538 DrK

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 11:59 AM

As much as I want to point my finger at Kishi for all of this because he's the writer and he's the face of the Naruto brand. I can't.

He had a part in all of this of course to a degree, but I can't put all the blame on him. It was a series of events that led to the destruction that happened. From the very beginning SP showing their biased and we've seen the effects not only on the studio but also to some of the fans, to Kishi's higher ups who only cared about making more money without even knowing the product they sell, to the idiotic fanbase that demanded garbage, to the loss that Kishi suffered when he lost his father and made him think about his own life, also from what I was able to read from him he isn't a strong person when it comes to someone else telling what to do. He just agrees with it. Probably because he likes other people liking his work or giving him any attention.

It all gathered together in one giant snowball and eventually it became too big and it had a wall in its path. And that wall was the ending. It had to end. And everything put together resulted in disaster.

My only resentment of Kishi comes from me simply detesting it when people lack conviction/determination... Which is personal for me from my own life experiences.

 

And the fact that he lied in interviews to support what he did which is tantamount to insulting fans' intelligence (though this forces me to overlook that this insult is in many cases justified)



#28539 James S Cassidy

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 07:56 PM

 

The only reason it was done is due to Kishimoto letting his grief get to him as well as probably pressure from Studio Pierrot, even if we don't know ALL the deets.

 

Also, that whole NaruSaku having a sibling relationship thing didn't hold water initially, given we saw Sakura was showing some signs of possible romantic feelings for Naruto due to his actions, like with Zabuza, or how she smiled when she learned that Naruto saved her from Gaara, not Sasuke like she initially thought.

Which is ironic considering that Naruto and Hinata are technically part of the same bloodline and if we are to take the reincarnation thing to the highest degree, then Hinata marrying and having kids with Naruto would be like a daughter having a love affair with her great great great great great great (you get the point) grandfather.

I also hate this argument because of one simple little fact...ready for it? It is so simple....NARUTO DIDN'T SEE SAKURA AS A SISTER.

For a series about the main character Naruto they sure do love ignoring what the main character of this series does. Naruto asked her out on dates, blushed around her, fantasized about her, and more....Hell, even Ino said Naruto had a crush on Sakura. Not even the other characters establish any kind of "sibling relationship" between Naruto and Sakura....

So why in god's name do they keep using this argument? Because they are stupid...there I answered my own question.



 


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#28540 sushi.

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 10:40 PM

I think the sibling argument stems from two reasons and those are that Sakura thought Naruto was annoying in part 1, second is it's the only way of deromanticizing the ship cus they can't deny their closeness. 


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