86 replies to this topic

[Wilson]

Sigh, it's too troublesome to argue any more. Too tired, just got back from an exam......DX

Ah heck, fine, Kishimoto can develop female characters.

[narutokage]

Development.

Remember, all the kids were 12 whent he series STARTED, i dont know bout you, but if you compare any 15 year old with how they acted when they were 12, there will be differences, yet similiarities. For Example

Sakura age 12: Fangirl, dependent on others, has severe self-confidence issues, hates perverts, hits Naruto

Naruto age 12: Loud, annoying, rambunctious, will NEVER shut up, has extreme over-confidence issues, is... not all that smart, perverted

Sakura age 15: Self-reliant, Confident, Talented, Hates perverts, Hits Naruto

Naruto age 15: WILL shut up now, is not as annoying, loud, or rambunctious, is not as arrogant, will act smart. perverted, lurvz ramen

Similarities?

Sakura: Hits Naruto, Hates Perverts

Naruto: perverted, lurvz ramen

Differences?

Sakura: overall talent and demeanor

Naruto: some talent and demeanor.

In a way, Sakura has developed MORE than Naruto has.

lol....I agree with your points....though now you have to agree that Sakura is perverted as well. She just doesn't show it as blatantly as Naruto

[Kamina-Yoshi]

Leave Kishi alooooooooooooooooone -Chris Crocker wail.-


Hell, he'll develop his characters as he pleases >;'

[Wilson]

Leave Kishi alooooooooooooooooone -Chris Crocker wail.-
Hell, he'll develop his characters as he pleases >;'

....... Like...duh....

But yeah, development, depends, what do you call development? Mere character? Strengths?

[narutokage]

....... Like...duh....

But yeah, development, depends, what do you call development? Mere character? Strengths?

lol.....I would rather see both. But I guess since its a shonen manga it might be a lot to ask for because usually females are left behind though I sincerely hope this does happen with Sakura.

[Leney]

I find Sakura to be a well written female character. Well written != perfect and likable and sunshine and rainbows. So people don't like her, well Kishimoto didn't write Sakura to loved universally. So I'm not understanding what is meant by Kishimoto not treating her well.

Although I was seriously this close to dropping Naruto as a show I watched until the Forest of Death moment. Sakura's character frustrated me because they built her up as "OMG she's so smart, oh she's a genjutsu type, oh she has perfect chakra control!" and she still did absolutely nothing. But after that scene I gave it a chance. And the end of Part I and what she's turned into in Part II is okay.

Tsunade is also a character I like as a female. And depending on the weather I think Hinata is okay, bordering on troublesome. She would have been better if Neji didn't exist though. I also like Temari. Ino was a good character in the making that got totally shafted (probably because she's a minor character) and poor Ten Ten never even had a chance.

I guess for the amount of time females even get in Naruto, Kishimoto is doing a better job than most others in shonen manga.

The 'all women must be medical ninja thing though or else suffer irrevalency' vibe I seem to be getting these days is kind of annoying. And I wish Konan turned out to be more kickass than what we've seen so far. Although she seems kind of cheerleader=ish.

[Shadowmoon~]

I voted NO. This is a shonen manga, right? So, it focuses on a male audience. But, as we have seen, the female characters developed in a great way in Part II, and in my opinion, Kishi-sensei tried his best to show that Sakura, Hinata, Ino, TenTen, Tsunade, and etc., have improved over the years. Heck, all of them improved in terms of abilities, skills, and such. More panel time for the ladies ... well, we'll just have to wait. Maybe, there will be an arc dedicated to them. I also vaguely remember reading something in a website, that there would also be a 'Sakura' arc. I think that her developments/improvements/secrets would be featured there, and maybe, the rest of the girls of Rookie Nine ... and TenTen as well.

EDIT: I also saw that probably, there would be a Kakashi arc, I think. I can't remember where I read it, actually. I just hope that it's the real thing, and not just something someone typed up because they were incredibly bored. Or, did that arc finish already?

---

Edited by Shadowmoon~, 24 September 2009 - 09:17 AM.

[Sherry]

I want to say no coz I believe that Kishi would make something great for Sakura...at least she won't be considered as the one that not doing anything.

But, seeing how far the story goes, it's...half no and half yes

[True]

Yes Kishimoto is horrible at developing female characters. I think he might have gotten beat up by a girl when he was younger that caused him to become a misogynist and write female characters so poorly. I'm sure you can also blame it on the trend of part 2 to go away from the focus of the side characters and onto Uchiha related matters. However in this manga I've only seen a few good examples of female characters having good development. Tsunade becoming Hokage and the Chiyo/Sakura fight against Sasori, but for the most part females in this manga are a mute point.

*Sakura - During part 1 she was pretty much useless barring during part of the Chunnin exams and was primarily a Sasuke fangirl. There was hope after the Sasori fight that she would finally get some good development but in over two hundred chapters she has done nothing significant excluding punching a Pain summon and healing canon fodders. This is not a good example of how to treat your female lead. Whatever happened to that supposed Sakura arc?

*Tsunade - One of the legendary Sannin and the best medical ninja in the world. Lots of hope with this super strong female who took no attitude from any male! She beat up and made the great Orochimaru retreat (even though he had no use of his arms and thus his arsenal of jutsus). Was even named Hokage after Jiraiya refused the position. Yet when Pain invaded Konoha and she as the Hokage was to defend it against his onslaught we'd finally have a chance to see her full abilities. But nope, instead she let's Pain blow up the whole village becoming the WORST Hokage to date and bring shame to her grandfather and great uncle.

They are the two primary females of the manga, but the side characters are off no better.

• Temari - Beat a useless Tenten, Shikamaru forfeit their fight, and defeated a weakened Tayuya.
• Kurenai - A female jounin!! She must be strong right? No wait let's make her pregnant.
• Ino - Contributed nothing to Asuma revenge fight. Still hung up on Sasuke. Oh but we can make her a nurse!!
• Hinata - reverted to plot device to make Naruto go six tails.
• Tenten - doesn't even have a last name.
• Karin - Another Sasuke fangirl and only skills include chakra sensing and wait for it....healing abilities. Yet another nurse there huh Kishi?
• Konan - The only female in the feared organization of Atatsuki. Surely we can expect better things from her besides being one shotted by Jiraiya right?

Now there's the excuse of "But Naruto is a Shounen manga and targeted towards boys! Of course the females won't be as strong/important/significant as the male characters" This is a very common fallacy when trying to defend Kishi's development of female characters. There are many other mangas that write females better than him and are all classified as Shounen. I'll use two weekly Shounen manga and one monthly as examples:

Bleach has a multitude of characters and even though the manga is about sword fighting females are still to be seen and hold important roles. Every category in the manga has females who are shown as strong and powerful able to compete with the males and some even take on the top tiers.

• Humans: Orihime - a human with literally Godlike powers and has healed many of the main cast.
• Shinigami: Rukia (well developed female lead and always the #2 most popular character in the series), Yoruichi (one of the strongest fighters in the series), Soi Fon (one of top tier Captians), Unohana (On par with Shunsui/Ukitake as the most powerful Captains).
• Espada: Neliel and Harribel were both the 3rd ranked and have displayed amazing fighting abilities.
• Vizards: Hiyori, Lisa, and Mashiro are a part of the Vizards and showcased great strength and individualism.

Kenichi a series dominated by primarily all male cast in martial arts manga, still has female characters who outshine and show they can compete with the boys.

• Miu - She's stronger than the male lead. Constantly kicks male fighters asses while still holding a good personality. One of the best female leads in shounen.
• Shigure - one of the masters of the Ryozanpaku dojo and specializes in weapons skills. One of the top tier fighters in the series.
• Kisara - Part of Ragnarok where she was a Fist and then joined the Shinpaku Alliance. Another top tier fighter who has shown strong skills and fighting ability.
• Kaname - Was also a Fist in the Ragnarok and then later joined the Shinpaku Alliance and has a strong tomboyish personality to go with her punches/kicks.
• Renka - Daughter of Kensei and the best at Chinese kenpo. Not only is she a great fighter but she has a well rounded personality.
• Mikumo - Prominent member of YOMI who even though being hinted at the age of 80 STILL manages to be a powerful fighter taking out people half her age.
• Rachel - Another female in YOMI though only a divisional member still fights with the boys and is able to match them in terms of ability/skill.

Soul Eater though labeled as Shounen still has a title female lead that is on the cover of the manga. It is the best example of teamwork between male/female characters that show the reliance of them on one another unlike the crappy put together that Kishi has done of his Konoha 12 teams. The use of them as weapons/miesters and the growth they've had from the very start towards the current events shows just why it's popular for both genders.

• Soul & Maka - They work together through the good and bad times. Training, fighting, arguing, they do all their development together and show a great connection. Through thick and thin their relationship has continuously gotten better as the manga progresses.
• Tsubaki & Black*Star - They're at odds with their very different personalities yet the bond they have with one another couldn't be closer. Relying on each others strength to become stronger both in physical and mental sense they've became great teammates and friends.
• Death-kun & Thompson Sisters - My favorite characters in the series and it's simply because of the fantastic relationship all three of them have with one another. Always looking out for one another and doing their best to get stronger, Liz/Patty/Kid have developed so well to gain a spots as #1, 5, and 12 in the popularity polls.

I can use many more examples from the other Shounen I read (Negima!, One Piece, Rosario + Vampire) as to show why Naruto is one of the worst examples of how to write females in manga and the excuse of "it's shounen" is pointless when trying to defend it.

[True]

I will agree with the beaten up part at least, but you also have to keep in mind that he is married (to be fair, even today many Japanese do not wed out of love, but if he had that much of a problem with women I don't see why he would do that and make extra mouths to feed. Not to mention even if what you say is true about Kishimoto, from what I hear that is the norm in Japan)

It was a joke bro.

I think the point of this is that Sakura starts out in a relatively unproductive position and comes to realize it, and improves. We're seeing some of that again, not so much because of her being a fangirl or refusing to train, but now Naruto and Sasuke are once again advancing so far ahead of her. Not to mention that now her sensei is in a coma, so any further training will be challenging to receive at the least. This probably won't help much, but I don't EVER recall Kishimoto saying anything about a Sakura arc; he said he had plans for her and Kakashi. We're not getting those arcs; it would be cool if we did, but I think at this point it would be for the best that the next arcs encompass them as well as Naruto and Sasuke.

I addressed this in my earlier point about Kishimoto only focusing on a couple characters leaving the others to be under developed. He focuses on Sasuke/Naruto for a good deal of the time, but his lead female really isn't important or developed much in a while. Again blame it on the shifting trend of focus of the characters, but seeing the female lead relegated to a side character role is disheartening.

The problem here is that Tsunade's primary responsibility is to lead and take charge. She focused most of her energy on keeping everyone alive, including when the village blew up, which is why she's a mummy now. When they can help it, a leader should focus on saving their people, not simply kill the monster when others are suffering. Besides, we've seen what good attacking the God-Realm Pain did in most cases; Tsunade prepared herself for his powers, but he simply took off.

It's more of the stature that Kishimoto held with Tsunade. A female Hokage leading the most powerful country was a great step in moving towards showing females having a strong influence and role in the universe, but look what her legacy ended up being with having the entire village decimated and even her healing ability was bested by Pain's massive DBZ jutsu. When you put all the Hokage's together and judge them her place in history will be the absolute worst amongst them.

I will agree with you on Karin and Konan, which has disappointed me. However, Kishimoto has made cool female antagonists (or effeminate ones) before; I'm hoping he'll be able to pull it off again.And I'd rather not see Kishimoto focus on the other characters you've listed above. I'll get to that in a second:

They have poor roles and hold no relevance even amongst their own respective arcs when Kishimoto introduced them (Team Gai haven't done anything in 200 chapters, Revenge Asuma arc where only Shikamaru did anything important, and the Itachi vs. Sasuke arc where Shino put some bugs on Tobi for a chapter). You may not like the characters yourself, but every character has fans and to seem them get jobbed when they were actually important in part 1 and made people enjoy them and identify them as their favorites isn't a good thing.

Bad example. Bleach has too many characters (not just females), and Kubo feels "I have to make EVERYONE FIGHT!" to the point where I just don't care about ANYONE anymore. They could all be killed in the most humiliating ways possible, and I would actually be leaping for joy. Many of them are fanservice ploys, and being able to kick-ass is not good enough to be an example of a "well-developed" female. The fact that they exist just to fight one character really does nothing about the gender issue. The sheer multitude of characters is a quagmire that both he and Kishimoto have ran into, and sadly Kubo did the greater of two evils.

This just shows your qualms with Bleach and has nothing to do with the point I made of it having a good female cast. Just because it has a large character base you can easily dismiss the characters as not holding any depth and just their for the sake of Kubo creating diversity and unique character sets? You're telling me the most popular females don't have any fans and their personality traits (along with emotional depth + background) and fighting abilities are just because Kubo wants them? I guess then we can throw out Rukia, Orihime, Soi Fon, Yoriuchi, Neliel (that ALL have a back story along with a strong emotional depth as well as plot importance), and the rest of the female cast as bland and just their because Kubo wants to create characters. You could say Kubo should simply make faceless characters since all he cares about his creating new abilities. And sidenote: I'm not an Orihime fan, but she still has more relevance and stronger powers then you'd expect from a regular human in a story of shinigami/hollows.

Negima is a bad example too; it's HAREM!

Because a show is listed as the harem genre you can also ignore it as the females being automatically a bad example? The fact that Ken Akatmatsu has a cast of over 30 female students who all have unique personalities and abilities, including the top ones who have amazing fighting abilities and are able to compete with their male counterparts can be ignored just because the females sexuality is emphasized? What about series such as Rosario + Vampire where you have tons of fan service yet all the females are well developed personality wise and have strong powers that keep them strong (and the fact that Inner!Moka is actually stronger than the male lead) and competing. What about Tenchi Muyo! the original harem which had a great cast of females who also had amazing powers along with important relevance? Just because Kishimoto doesn't sexualize his females doesn't mean he's necessarily doing a good job with treating his female characters. The series is shounen and aimed at young teenage boys going through puberty and starting to find attractiveness in the opposite sex and thus the mangakas appeal to their respective demographic.

I can think of other series that do nothing for or treat their females unfairly:
Yu Yu Hakusho: Keiko and Botan don't do anything, and the only memorable female we get is Mukuro, near the end of the series.

Did you forget about Genkai? Trained Yusuke to be the badass he was along with kicking major ass in the Dark Tournament?

Rurouni Kenshin: Despite being assistant master of her own dojo, Kaoru can't seem to stand up to ANY of Kenshin's enemies, and Yahiko QUICKLY becomes stronger than her. Misao Makimachi, though supposedly a kunoichi, doesn't seem to be worth much either, and neither one got to fight in the Jinchu arc.

Rurouni Kenshin was based on the Feudal Japan era where women weren't prominent and held such roles so I can forgive that. Also, I didn't state that ALL shounen manga are exempt from having non-prominent females, but nor the fact that all shounen did have incompetent females such as Naruto.

As for your point on Dragon Ball and the influence it held on manga you can't attribute that to the sole reason for Naruto having a bad female cast. One Piece is the spiritual successor to Dragon Ball and it emphasizes the traits it has of adventure + friendship, and it has good female characters. Kubo was influenced by Saint Seniya with a strong male cast but he was still able to put together great females. I don't buy the "blame Dragon Ball for creating the weak female stereotype"

[True]

Tsunade's main responsibility was that of a healer, not a fighter, even though she was good at it. It's not just being tough that makes one a leader, it's taking control of a situation to. Tsunade saved everyone she could, and ordered for Naruto to return (which Danzou went and mucked up). Not only that, but she went into overload after the blast saving everyone she could. I wouldn't say Pain's DBZ revival bested it, since at the time no one had any way of knowing everyone who would've died would come back to life. If having a village wrecked makes a bad kage, the First, Third and Fourth by that logic weren't very good either. Especially when the third could've prevented the attack during the chunin exams a decade in advance. Not to mention Pain was the incarnation of one of the most powerful beings to ever exist in the universe.

The Shodai Hokage created the village in the first place and built a sanctuary in a time of outright war. His brother continued that legacy. The Sandiame was and is a legend who became the successor of the first two and his achievements outshine the Chunnin exam invasion (which is nothing now compared to the nuking of Konoha). The Yondaime himself is treated as a God amongst Konoha for him defeating the Kyuubi. When time came to it the Hokage's put their life on the line to protect the village. Tsunade's legacy will be having a 16 year old boy save the village and then have the enemy heal everyone while the entire place was blown up. Pain may have been strong, but he was no EMS Madara + Kyuubi, Fighting multiple wars, and defeating the Kyuubi.

I have nothing against the other characters, but I feel that if too much time was spent on them it would only bog down the story. Most of them fulfilled their roles in Part 1 IMO anyway, but that's an argument for another time. It's just not a good arguement for how Kishimoto gives girls the...you know what I mean. But everyone in the rookie 9 except Shikamaru has been ignored thus far, not just the girls.

It's not even about the character's being relevant it's that they're characterized as weak and unimportant. I'll take the cast of Bleach and Negima! as examples where even though you don't focus on all the characters every time, you still know that the females are strong and can make a difference. In Naruto, that isn't the case. A complete lack of development.

I guess another AFAT, but still, outside of Ichigo's main group, I find most of the characters just to be there, and not just the females. Rukia I would contend as a female character is well-done, as well as Orohime. Everyone else, I just feel meh, and I didn't sense much emotional death out side of RK and OI. I guess that's just my opinion, but there were times those two moved me; the rest did no such thing so far, and where the series is at now, I'll be surprised that will change. Not to mention that so many of the women seem to be fanservice ploys. Not necessarily a bad thing, but when it's done consistently exaggerating certain parts, it gets to be a turn-off (Yorouichi seems to be the only one that balances being good-looking as well as a cool character). Also, the Orohime comment was a joke. It's just that you seemed to have a problem with the girls in Naruto being nurses, and Orohime is pretty much nothing but a nurse at this point.

Again I only see you having an issue with Bleach not suiting to your tastes; there is nothing wrong with that. But they aren't relegated to only fanservice ploys (Matsumoto appears on the color spreads a lot because she is one of Kubo's favorite characters). Matsumoto, Hinamori, Hiyori, Lisa, Mashiro, Soi Fong, and Harribel, all were involved in fights in Fake Karakura Town and contributed something. Having big breasts or showing suggestive shots doesn't automatically disregard every other important facet of the characters. Also Orihime is one healer amongst a large cast of predominately fighting females along with Unohana who is also a top 3 captain.

First off, the only one of those I'm familiar with besides Ken Akamatsu's work is Tenchi Muyo, which I did not like (different strokes for different people I guess). I still don't have much desire to see any of the others. But the fact that harem in general seems to just be about the females fighting over the love of one guy has rubbed me the wrong way, and I just find the female leads to be stereotypes. There are some that are okay, and there is one I actually did find myself enjoying (probably because it did a few things different that appealed to me). But most of them I feel like none of them have anything special about them. Negima has far too many characters again, and from observing it out of mild amusement at best, gives only a few characters an important role in the story and neglects others. Probably for the best, but I felt that most of the characters did get ignored.I also discounted harem in this arguement because we're talking about a series that has a predominately male cast, wheras the women in harem tend to already be the focus.

I'll try not to stray to far away from the original subject matter of this topic, but you originally discredited Negima! because it was a harem series. I pointed out that just because a series is a harem, the females in the series aren't going to be seen as poorly written. Yeah they are infatuated with the male lead but isn't their sole purpose in the show. They all have their own goals, individualism, unique abilities, and contribute something to the plot. Negima! and Rosario + Vampires are pretty much your stereotypical shounen fighting series but also appeal to a certain genre and type of fans. Sure you don't have to like harem series because they aren't suited to your tastes, but you cannot tell me the females in those series are simply fanservice ploys who are in love with the main character and nothing else as that is factually wrong. I'm using Negima! and R+V as examples because even though they are harem series, they are still listed as shounen manga.

But based on what I have seen, in terms of able to create strong female characters, Kishimoto is about average. He's done two great characters, the rest either don't have much potential or it wasn't explored. So, thus far I would give him a C+. I personally think in the future that Kishi will have a big showdown for Sakura in the future to demonstrate new abilities, as he has proved that even if he shifts the focus too much, he does not forget about other characters. But like everything else, that's all up in the air.

This debate of ours as shifted drastically from Kishimoto's development of females to simply treatment/development of females in other series. I'll try to be done with that because really it's turning into an opinionated argument and those only go in circles. I'll say for now my stance is still that Kishimoto has terrible development of female characters, and until Sakura does something really important such as another major fight or contribute to the plot, I'll stay with my current stance.

[Nee-sama]

Both of you guys seem to be basing a manga-woman's worth by her fighting prowess. Maybe it's just from my perspective, being a woman and all, but a woman doesn't shouldn't have to win against a man in strength in order to be his equal. (Though it's definitely a bonus!)

I thought that was one of the reasons people have listed for liking Sakura: because when she's with Naruto their intelligence and abilities balance out. Like yin and yang, or heaven and earth.

Personally, I like the way Sakura has been developed. Even though she couldn't put up much of a fight in part 1 she did well at supporting her team. There was never a time when she was to blame for the failure of a mission and she didn't hold anyone back. Even when getting owned by Gaara the Raging Raccoon she held her ground without fear, and her plight caused the right reaction in Naruto for victory. Call that a plot device if you want, it's still the job of a kunoichi in a manga. Then, her training during the time skip increased her abilities exponentially, and was enough to impress even Kakashi.

Sakura is a smart and powerful ninja, as well as being a brave and ordinary woman. Based on that alone, I would have to say that Kishimoto is decently good at developing female characters, not the best, but good. Judging by how many kids out there think that Hinata is just fabulous I'd say he is capable of creating likable characters of either gender. His employers seem to agree, judging by his manga's position in Shonen Jump.

Edited by Nee-sama, 05 November 2009 - 08:10 PM.

[True]

Having a strong fighting ability is great but that's not the only thing Naruto females lack. Tenten is useless, Sakura until part 2 was a Sasuke fangirl (and right now the focus is still on her romance), Ino is still crying about Sasuke, Karin is part 1 Sakura reincarnate, Hinata is weak willed and not fit to run her own clan (and used as a plot device), Konan did nothing of significance except worry about Pain and make some origami. Fighting ability and a good background is nice to go with plot development, but most of the Naruto females aren't even fit to be ninjas.

And for your point about Hinata being popular, no Naruto female has ever broken the top 10 in popularity polls (Sakura was ranked highest at 14). Bleach and One Piece consistently have females in the top 5 with Rukia always being #2 and Nami being #5. The only reason people like Hinata is because of either her submissive personality, shoujo girl appeal, and huge knockers.

[ciardha]

Having a strong fighting ability is great but that's not the only thing Naruto females lack. Tenten is useless, Sakura until part 2 was a Sasuke fangirl (and right now the focus is still on her romance), Ino is still crying about Sasuke, Karin is part 1 Sakura reincarnate, Hinata is weak willed and not fit to run her own clan (and used as a plot device), Konan did nothing of significance except worry about Pain and make some origami. Fighting ability and a good background is nice to go with plot development, but most of the Naruto females aren't even fit to be ninjas.

And for your point about Hinata being popular, no Naruto female has ever broken the top 10 in popularity polls (Sakura was ranked highest at 14). Bleach and One Piece consistently have females in the top 5 with Rukia always being #2 and Nami being #5. The only reason people like Hinata is because of either her submissive personality, shoujo girl appeal, and huge knockers.

Er, what polls are you talking about? American online ones? Because in the Japanese Shonen Jump Naruto reader ones Sakura has definitely been top 10, including the most recent one where she was the top female as almost always and was #6.

The females in Naruto are far more realistic and rounded characters than in Bleach and lightyears better than the fanservice fetish toys in One Piece. Ugh, One Piece has nothing in it to appeal to female readers who want characters that aren't shallow stereotypes, which is why it has so few female fans. Bleach is somewhat better, but still the female characters aren't given the character depth the male characters are, and there's too much fanservice of the female characters.

Let's look at some Naruto female characters now:

Sakura- highly intelligent, leadership qualities, highly skilled medic, skilled fighter with great strength, strong willed but deeply compassionate, has strong bonds with female as well as male characters

Tsunade- shrewd leader- knows how to balance strength and compassion and be respected as a leader, strong willed, best medic nin ever, highly skilled fighter with great strength, loves to drink and gamble but those weaknesses do not compromise her ability to lead wisely. Strongest emotional bonds with other females, encourages other females to be strong but compassionate.

Chiyo- highly skilled fighter, even in her 70's, highly intelligent, shrewd observer of people, strong willed, far more emotionally adaptable than most ninja (male or female) her age.

Karui- hot tempered but highly skilled fighter, only Naruto as a result of Sage training had the ability to block her attacks, even Sai wasn't fast enough (and considering Sai was fast enough to block Sasuke, means Karui- faster than Sasuke in that arc, and remember even Yamato wasn't fast enough to block Sasuke there.)

Godaime Mizukage- strong enough to have taken down Sasuke with ease, took down the Yondaime Mizukage, yet also has a very compassionate heart.

Temari- skilled fighter, strong will, shrewd and intelligent, sharp wit

Tsume- tough, apparently moreso than even many men- something that entertains her, still an active duty Jonin in her early 40's with an adult daughter and teenage son, toughlove mom with her kids

[Freakazoid]

I think he did good with Sakura atleast. After that he started to troll her along with all the other females in the manga. Oh well, it's not like this is the only manga where women don't do all that much.

[catsi563]

Kets add Karin into the mix as well

Shes strong and unique in her abilites, Sasuke would not have chosen her otherwise, and Sasuke himself said hed always planned on recruiting her. more importantly Sasuke said this to her and to her alone of the three members of Team hawk

Karin I need you. when has Sasuke ever said he needed anyone? the answer is Never untill Karin.

Shes smart not sakura class but defiantley intelligent, and Sasuke listens to her.

Shes strong willed and firey as well. She doesnt put up with crap from suigetsu and shes called Sasuke on his BS at least once.

as to ehr being a fangirl. Im of the strong opinion that that is a highly mistaken assumption about her,

first she has only ""fangirled"" on Sasuke 5 times in the manga. thats right 5 and all of them were in private or in ehr mind.

also one of them was done as a comedic moment.

Second unlike Fangirls who always support their guy and never disagree with him. Karin has called Sasuke weak at leats once and called him a dumbass on another occasion. She has disagreed with him as well.

lastly she has the one thing that makes for a true relationship in manga. Like Sakura and Naruto before her. She has his trust.

She was shown this trust when Sasuke not once but twice told her to stay behind him

In his BLIND SPOT. A place where someone like Sasuke would be most guarded since his greatest power is his eyes, and his back is where hsi eyes cant see.

And she ahs evoked more emotion out of him then anyone save Naruto or itachi has. when she was being consumed by Amtaeratsu he nearly threw himself into the flames to save her. he even gained a greater power to control those flames when he needed to to save her.

and when she saved him by having him bite her.

he thanked her

HE THANKED HER.

all she said about it


yeah

thats it.

Karins a strong character and one who stands near Sasuke as an equal. she doesnt take crap from him or anyone, and shes going to have an amazing affect on the story and Sasuke before this story is done.

[True]

Er, what polls are you talking about? American online ones? Because in the Japanese Shonen Jump Naruto reader ones Sakura has definitely been top 10, including the most recent one where she was the top female as almost always and was #6.

I rechecked the polls and overall that is correct so I acknowledge my mistake on this part. However, Sakura started off #5 and has steadily declined to #12 as of the latest poll.

The females in Naruto are far more realistic and rounded characters than in Bleach and lightyears better than the fanservice fetish toys in One Piece. Ugh, One Piece has nothing in it to appeal to female readers who want characters that aren't shallow stereotypes, which is why it has so few female fans. Bleach is somewhat better, but still the female characters aren't given the character depth the male characters are, and there's too much fanservice of the female characters.

As I told Kodachi this is all OPINION. Just because the females are given some fanservice they are automatically discredited as bad examples? Yeah the reason Naruto doesn't have female fanservice is because it covers the yaoi market with all the NaruSasu hints. And how exactly do you know that One Piece doesn't appeal to female fans? 80% of the fanfiction consists of yaoi writing so it must do something to attract females. I've broken down Naruto females in terms of personality, abilities, plot significance and why they are badly developed. Mind doing the same for One Piece and/or Bleach so I can see exactly how they are simply used for just fanservice?

Sakura- highly intelligent, leadership qualities, highly skilled medic, skilled fighter with great strength, strong willed but deeply compassionate, has strong bonds with female as well as male characters

Great you described her personality. Besides punching a summon and healing some fodders, what has she really done for the plot? Or shown any growth besides her love triangle?

Tsunade- shrewd leader- knows how to balance strength and compassion and be respected as a leader, strong willed, best medic nin ever, highly skilled fighter with great strength, loves to drink and gamble but those weaknesses do not compromise her ability to lead wisely. Strongest emotional bonds with other females, encourages other females to be strong but compassionate.

Another description of personality. If you like these characteristics that's fine and dandy, but that doesn't change any of the fact that she has done nothing great as a Hokage and her legacy will always be that she was the worst one to run the position.

Chiyo- highly skilled fighter, even in her 70's, highly intelligent, shrewd observer of people, strong willed, far more emotionally adaptable than most ninja (male or female) her age.

I'll give you this one, she easily had the best fight for any female or character.

Karui- hot tempered but highly skilled fighter, only Naruto as a result of Sage training had the ability to block her attacks, even Sai wasn't fast enough (and considering Sai was fast enough to block Sasuke, means Karui- faster than Sasuke in that arc, and remember even Yamato wasn't fast enough to block Sasuke there.)

Grossly exaggerated based on a simple skirmish and you are already labeling her faster than Sasuke because Sai blocked him? The transitive property of inequalities does not apply to this as everyone knows that Sasuke is easily the top tier in the universe and Karui is a laughable comparison. And she is not even a relevant female who has no backstory and appears in a couple chapters.

Godaime Mizukage- strong enough tohave taken down Sasuke with ease, took down the Yondaime Mizukage, yet also has a very compassionate heart.

Yeah she took down an exhausted Sasuke who had fought two kages and a bunch of their subordinates, very impressive all right /sacrasm. And beat a Mizukage we know nothing about. I will give credit that Kishimoto created another female Kage, but again she is of no relevance to make a huge difference.

Temari- skilled fighter, strong will, shrewd and intelligent, sharp wit

Shikamaru forfeited their fight and she beat a Tayuya who was already broken down by Shikamaru. And she has done nothing of relevance in part 2.

Tsume- tough, apparently moreso than even many men- something that entertains her, still an active duty Jonin in her early 40's with an adult daughter and teenage son, toughlove mom with her kids

I actually had to look this name up as I had no idea who you were referring to. Uh..she appeared in a couple panels in part 1. Not really the best example to use here.

The problem with most of these examples are none of them are very well developed or have much of an impact on the plot. They aren't even good at fighting which is the main focus of this shounen manga.

[Freakazoid]

^ Tsume was actually a part of the Pain invasion. Not that it matters, just figured i'd add that.

Edited by Freakazoid, 08 November 2009 - 12:37 AM.