42 replies to this topic

[harry4e]

The quran also forbids violence. So, we're even. But do you know what the bible say about lgbt people? I hear little about christian terrorists.. Doesn't matter anyway because if the criminal is a white person, they are 'mentally ill' 'misguided' 'a man with a promising future'. If it is a muslim, the religion is all that is needed to find motivation. Now I'm of course not only speaking about this incident, if you don't turn a blind eye to this injustice you will notice the racist pattern.

 

I wouldnt bother mate, the media has brainwashed too many people to think that Islam is all about violence and death, you won't see them cover how in this months alone muslims will donate collectively hundreds of millions towards good causes, how from all the religions on average per head Muslims donate the most toward feeding the needy, but you'll never see stuff like that reported on because we are all violent savages who want to kill everyone who isn't a muslim. Some will even  learn a few verses from the Quran, take them out of context and make themselves feel better about their hate.

 

It's no different to humans in general, I myself am guilty of it, we claim not to be racist or sexist or predjudice, but in reality we all are to some level, some try to overcome it, some openly admit to it, and some try to find reason to practice it without being branded as one.

 

We have this extremist group, who have a misconstruid notion of what Islam is, and media will paint us all in the same colours, and those with not enough intelligence believe them as they need a reason to hate on those who grew up differently than them. That should be the focal point of the discussion here, not about Muslim hate or otherwise, at the end of the day people were killed, and we should be sad about such a tragic event. ISIS is a threat to the world, not just non-muslims, they are terrorist, simple as, they don't just target non-muslims, they target anyone who is in their way, they've killed countless muslims in their country and destroyed mosques.

 

What this person did was evil, this is a months of Ramadan, a months where we are meant to endure, fast for over 20 hours in some cases, so we can get a small idea of what the millions across the world suffer everyday, this person instead of spending this month to live a simpler life to understand his fellow man, went on a rampage and killed hundred of innocents.

[LuckyChi7]

Damn.. I'm not sure what to say, but.. 

 

my sympathies goes out to the families and loved ones of victims!!

[Dalton.T.R]

So tragic. My sympathies go out to the families and loved ones of the victims.

 

 

The Spanish Inquisition resulted in countless deaths of people who refused to practice Catholicism, Henry VIII persecuted Catholics, Mary Tudor burned Protestants at the stake, the Crusades was a violent war fought in the name of Christianity. Honestly, there are plenty of examples throughout history of the Christian religion being used to justify atrocities against other human beings. I come from a Christian background myself, but I can't ignore that it's history really is not the greatest. Most religions when practiced to the extreme will result in the persecution of others who do not believe the same way, Christianity is not an exception.

 

Anyway, that's my two cents. I don't want to start a debate or anything, so I'm gonna go now. 

True, but that happened the better part of a thousand years ago.

[alexander]

There's always another option, killing them is not always the best option, nor should it be thrown about as easily as you would have it.

 

I am not saying "kill all the mulsims" however. What I meant in my preview post is that trying to act temperate in such extremes situations won't cut it neither. It's about time society starts taking immediate action. Or perhaps we need a couple more massacres for people to realize that trying to mix up groups of people with radically different ideologies and lifestyles won't work? Who knows, maybe it will be a hundred next time, or a thousand, oh, who I am kidding? Everyone loves seeing americans used as target practice.

[sushi.]

So tragic. My sympathies go out to the families and loved ones of the victims.

 

 

The Spanish Inquisition resulted in countless deaths of people who refused to practice Catholicism, Henry VIII persecuted Catholics, Mary Tudor burned Protestants at the stake, the Crusades was a violent war fought in the name of Christianity. Honestly, there are plenty of examples throughout history of the Christian religion being used to justify atrocities against other human beings. I come from a Christian background myself, but I can't ignore that it's history really is not the greatest. Most religions when practiced to the extreme will result in the persecution of others who do not believe the same way, Christianity is not an exception.

 

Anyway, that's my two cents. I don't want to start a debate or anything, so I'm gonna go now. 

Yes that is a bloody history, if I may add some christian terrorist attacks of today since the past don't count to some people, it'd be anti-abortion attacks. There are plenty and many are directly influenced by the religion. Planned parenthood shootings and bombings, people who kill abortion doctors(George Tiller etc). The KKK is protestant, Joseph Kony is said to be christian and uses God and religion to justify his abuse of children.

 

I checked how the Quran forbids violence(I'm not sure if all violence but in this case murdering 50 people is not permitted now matter what) and I had to look no longer than one google search. I deem this source trustworthy. 

 

But I'm out too actually :) Google takes 3secs and wikipedia even has an own christian terrorism page, so people here ask with closed eyes and ears. Have fun with that.

[RedFaction]

It's the culture of these religions that are the problem. Both in Christianity and Islam they are taught to be highly homophobic, and many followers discriminate them on a daily basis. All it takes is a one madman to take it another step further and we end up with a situation like this.

 

People have to learn that the Bible and the Quran aren't real, and that they are full of contradictory statements. You can easily find verses in the Quran that preach non-violence, and others that say you should kill anyone who crosses Muhammad. The followers of these religions are just going to cherry-pick what they want to hear, based on the culture they were taught by their parents, and act out on it in the way that they see fit.

Edited by RedFaction, 13 June 2016 - 08:55 PM.

[alexander]

Well, here is my final argument on the matter:

 

 

So I still fail to see the arguments of islam being a harmless religion.

 

 Like the guy said, it needs a dire reform, but considering how muslims are very stone headed when it comes to changing their belief system, it is far more realistic for them to be exiled from the wersten world to end this charade once and for all. But is far more likely that terrorism, violence and intolerance will still happen, because our current cowardly liberal generation is too afraid to admit that things are not acceptable as they are now.

[AHK]

I am not saying "kill all the mulsims" however. What I meant in my preview post is that trying to act temperate in such extremes situations won't cut it neither. It's about time society starts taking immediate action. Or perhaps we need a couple more massacres for people to realize that trying to mix up groups of people with radically different ideologies and lifestyles won't work? Who knows, maybe it will be a hundred next time, or a thousand, oh, who I am kidding? Everyone loves seeing americans used as target practice.

  
And there are many ways to act without resorting to killing others, or exiling a huge population, without mercy to those among the populous that follow our laws and practice their religion peacefully. I'll remind you that the greatest sports figure, and one of the greatest people in general in American history was a Muslim that was devout in his belief of peace.

Well, here is my final argument on the matter:
 

 
So I still fail to see the arguments of islam being a harmless religion.
 
 Like the guy said, it needs a dire reform, but considering how muslims are very stone headed when it comes to changing their belief system, it is far more realistic for them to be exiled from the wersten world to end this charade once and for all. But is far more likely that terrorism, violence and intolerance will still happen, because our current cowardly liberal generation is too afraid to admit that things are not acceptable as they are now.

It's not any less harmless than any other religion, each of which has blood on their hands. Also, liberals aren't afraid of admitting that things need to change, change is very much prevalent in their agenda. Just because they disagree with you in how they would aquire change does not mean that they are cowardly.

Edited by AHK, 13 June 2016 - 09:43 PM.

[alexander]

  
And there are many ways to act without resorting to killing others, or exiling a huge population, without mercy to those among the populous that follow our laws and practice their religion peacefully. I'll remind you that the greatest sports figure, and one of the greatest people in general in American history was a Muslim that was devout in his belief of peace.
It's not any less harmless than any other religion, each of which has blood on their hands. Also, liberals aren't afraid of admitting that things need to change, change is very much prevalent in their agenda. Just because they disagree with you in how they would aquire change does not mean that they are cowardly.

 

And said muslim that died wouldn't last two days in muslim controlled countries. Especially considering the things he believed in. If anything else, he was a hypocrite that wouldn't admit the poison of his own newfound religion.

 

This is a strawman argument. Other religions having blood in their hands don't excuse what is happening right now. The spanish inquisition happened in medieval times. This insanity still happens today all over the world in plain 21th century. What's your explanation for that?

 

And for last they are absolutely cowardly. They can't even say this attack was made by a muslim extremist. All people shout around is "gun control". As if that had any relevance in France, that had a massacre despite it's tight control on guns circulating the country.

[Dalton.T.R]

 

And said muslim that died wouldn't last two days in muslim controlled countries. Especially considering the things he believed in. If anything else, he was a hypocrite that wouldn't admit the poison of his own newfound religion.

 

This is a strawman argument. Other religions having blood in their hands don't excuse what is happening right now. The spanish inquisition happened in medieval times. This insanity still happens today all over the world in plain 21th century. What's your explanation for that?

 

And for last they are absolutely cowardly. They can't even say this attack was made by a muslim extremist. All people shout around is "gun control". As if that had any relevance in France, that had a massacre despite it's tight control on guns circulating the country.

May as well be arguing with a wall, bro. 

[trang95]

ISIS obliterates anyone who does not embrace their way of Islam, including its own people. In fact, more muslims have been put to death than non-muslims. The daily casualties that occur in the middle east tend to be widely ignored though until, well, the western hemisphere is affected.

Cherry-picking certain phrases of the Quran won't change the fact that the majority of the muslims are peaceful people. They do not antagonize us or despise us. While it is true that the Quran condemns homosexuality, so does the Bible. Both of these holy books contain questionable and outdated passages. And while these books highly dictate the way Muslims and Christians live and perceive things, these followers won't go as far as to physically harm anyone. It is those handful extremists that take things to the next level. I grew up with muslims. I've interacted with enough muslims to know that I have no need to fear them or their religion.

 

Anyways, the next few weeks, the presidential race is gonna look pretty interesting (or really ridiculous).

 

What happened in Orlando just breaks my heart. Just a day before, a youtube singer I cherished got shot down by a maniac fan in Orlando, too. My heart goes out to all the families and friends who have lost someone on that day.

[RedFaction]

 

Well, here is my final argument on the matter:

 

 

So I still fail to see the arguments of islam being a harmless religion.

 

 Like the guy said, it needs a dire reform, but considering how muslims are very stone headed when it comes to changing their belief system, it is far more realistic for them to be exiled from the wersten world to end this charade once and for all. But is far more likely that terrorism, violence and intolerance will still happen, because our current cowardly liberal generation is too afraid to admit that things are not acceptable as they are now.

 

Now you're just being ridiculous. You can't just single out the religion of Islam, it's practically all of the major religions which are the problem.

 

Christians can be just as radical as them, and I know for a fact that some Christians believe that we should have state sanctioned executions of gays. We would basically be living in a Christian version of Saudi Arabia if they had their way.

 

I refuse to accept that Islam is the only problem here.

Edited by RedFaction, 13 June 2016 - 10:34 PM.

[AHK]

And said muslim that died wouldn't last two days in muslim controlled countries. Especially considering the things he believed in. If anything else, he was a hypocrite that wouldn't admit the poison of his own newfound religion.
 
This is a strawman argument. Other religions having blood in their hands don't excuse what is happening right now. The spanish inquisition happened in medieval times. This insanity still happens today all over the world in plain 21th century. What's your explanation for that?
 
And for last they are absolutely cowardly. They can't even say this attack was made by a muslim extremist. All people shout around is "gun control". As if that had any relevance in France, that had a massacre despite it's tight control on guns circulating the country.

Yes, he would, because not all Muslims are violent, or practice violence. You're doing nothing more than equivocating all Muslims with the actions of a select few. If that's the case, then should all orthodox Catholics be condemned as murderers because Stali was born gregorian Catholic? Should not all atheists be condemned as murderers because Stalin (who later stopped his practice of religion), and Mao Zedong brutally murdered tens of millions of people?

Or maybe we should exile all police officers from this country, because of the actions of two or three bad cops. Or maybe all men are rapists, because of the actions of a few. Or maybe, since the Orlando guy was born and raised American, we should consider all Americans murderers, because of this one man.

My answer for your question is that terrible people exist in every country, in every faith, of every gender/sexuality and these people will do terrible things, and instead of punishing a whole slew of people that are innocent because of the actions of one or two terrible people that happen to share a trait with them, we actually try working on a feasible solution that doesn't rest in prejudice.

No, they are not cowardly. There are plenty of liberals that believe that extremism is a problem, but it doesn't help the fact that gun control in this country is lax enough that Omar Mateen, a man who was twice, twice investigated by the FBI for links to terrorism was able to walk into a gun store and legally obtain an assault rifle and a hand gun and obliterate 50 people who's only mistake was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Whether you like to admit it or not, that is an issue.

If we do nothing to change the status quo, it will be maintained. If you are dumb enough to persecute innocent Muslims, you do nothing to play into ISIS' hands, because those persecuted will be driven right to ISIS. ISIS wants nothing more than for America to act as you have suggested, because then they win.

[Catra]

as a Floridian i am quite scared even though i don't leave my home, not gay and not  and on the other side far away from orlando.

[Lid]

This horrific attack has many layers, and I think as a result there's no easy answer. Subsequently, there's also no easy solution.

 

Because of that, I think we need to be rational, look at all the factors and be tempered in our responses. 

 

From what I can see from this thread and from what's been discussed in the media, there are four leading factors in this tragedy.

 

The first is the factor of the shooter's religion. From all the news reports it appears that he pledged allegiance to the Islamic State and for all purposes was a Muslim.

 

Does this mean all Muslims are bad and that Islam instantly leads all of its followers to extremism? No, not in my view. I think the extremism that we see in the middle east has much more to do with the ingrained theocracies and ancient beliefs that are taught from a very young age. From that, with the internet now a factor, the teachings of this extremism can spread.

 

This in my view certainly means that the issue of extremism needs to be addressed. However, I don't believe it can be addressed through discriminating everyone who follows a religion, banning everyone who may be a Muslim from the country, or wiping everyone who happens to be a Muslim off the Earth.

 

In the United States, I think progress needs to be made by actively engaging with Muslim organizations who believe in peaceful practices and can help deter those in their own communities from being "radicalized." I also think it's necessary to direct more resources and maybe create a task force, like Clinton mentioned, that can work with law enforcement and intelligence agencies to prevent these types of attacks.

 

At the international level, I think it has to be a combination of continued diplomacy while working with other nations to do targeted strikes against terrorist organizations.

 

The second thing that I've been seeing is the gun issue, which has been brought up again as it has before. When it comes to this subject, I understand that the nation has the second amendment and I do respect it. I also think it's possible, though, to have sensible legislation that can still allow a law-abiding citizen to purchase a firearm while preventing those, like the shooter, from obtaining them. 

 

Of course, this wouldn't solve the issue over night and I don't believe it would cut the issue down to zero, but I do feel that it could reduce the number of shootings or at least give law enforcement a bit more time to stop a shooting.

 

The third issue I've noticed is about mental health treatment. This is one I think everyone can agree on. I live with OCD, and I have a friend who suffers from depression. I know first hand the heavy costs that can become associated with seeking mental health help. It needs to be more available and more affordable.

 

Additionally, there needs to be more places that those with severe mental health issues that can make that person a danger to themselves or others can go besides the local jail. This is another problem where jails are housing mental health sufferers when they need treatment.

 

The last matter is the factor of the LGBT community. While this person was likely severely mentally disturbed and pledged allegiance to ISIS, he also directly targeted a gathering place for people in the LGBT community. This, in my view, does raise the issue that people in that community still deal with frightening events and may be living in fear. I think that makes it important to continue standing by people in the LGBT community and remind them that we stand with them.

 

These are just my ramblings on the four reoccurring things that I've been hearing these last two days. As I said before there is more than just one problem here, there are many things going on with this tragedy. However, I don't think the answer comes through hatred or anger. I understand demanding solutions, wanting action and believing there are issues needing to be addressed, but I think discussions such as ours on our little corner of the internet are much more productive when we can be respectful.

[Ryriena]

Shameful that it doesn't take long for political leaders to take advantage of this act and push their agendas. Dan Patrick looking at you, as a texan, he is just shameful.

Edited by Ryriena, 18 June 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[Nate River]

Shameful that it doesn't take long for political leaders to take advantage of this act and push their agendas. Dan Patrick looking at you, as a texan, he is just shameful.

 

Is this going to be one of those "my kitten don't stink" type of deals where it only counts as politicization when the other side does it?

[Shadow1275]

 

Is this going to be one of those "my kitten don't stink" type of deals where it only counts as politicization when the other side does it?

The grass is always greener on the other side right? At least that's what every politician says.

 

In any case the FBI released the 911 phone call transcripts

 

http://www.zerohedge...all-transcripts

 

The censored version mind you. Ahem, the Department of Justice decided to heavily edit the transcripts to remove all references to Isis and Islamic terrorism because hooray for government transparency?

Edited by Shadow1275, 20 June 2016 - 03:42 PM.

[Nate River]

The grass is always greener on the other side right? At least that's what every politician says.

 

In any case the FBI released the 911 phone call transcripts

 

http://www.zerohedge...all-transcripts

 

The censored version mind you. Ahem, the Department of Justice decided to heavily edit the transcripts to remove all references to Isis and Islamic terrorism because hooray for government transparency?

 

 

Yes, they did. They can't have you engaging in wrongthink. Because we all know none of those had anything to do with this, despite repeated public statements to the contrary by the guy who carried out the attack. 

[Shadow1275]

The FEDs have released the unedited version of the 911 phone call:

 

http://www.zerohedge...g-public-outcry

 

 

 

 

Orlando Police Dispatcher (OD): Emergency 911, this is being recorded.

Shooter (OM): In the name of God the Merciful, the beneficial [in Arabic]

OD: What?

OM: Praise be to God, and prayers as well as peace be upon the prophet of God [in Arabic]. I let you know, I'm in Orlando and I did the shootings.

OD: What's your name?

OM: My name is I pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

OD: Ok, What's your name?

OM: I pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, may God protect him [in Arabic], on behalf of the Islamic State.

OD: Alright, where are you at?

OM: In Orlando.

OD: Where in Orlando?

[End of call.]

Edited by Shadow1275, 20 June 2016 - 07:37 PM.