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To What Degree IS Kakashi Responsible for Team 7's Neuroticism?

Kakashi Team 7 Sakura Naruto Sasuke

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#1 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 03:33 PM

To what degree is he responsible for Naruto's childhood and why do you think he kept his distance? 
To what degree is he responsible for Sasuke's fall from grace and what could he have done differently?
and finally, how badly did he mishandle Sakura, and what are things he could have done differently?

I know that a lot of the head-canon back in the day is that Young Team 7 was all cutesy with Kakashi playing the Pseudo daddy role, but it seems that the reality was much harsher and he was infact pretty distant.

My personal belief is that: I think a lot of things could have been curtailed if he HAD stepped up to the plate in that role, but fundamentally I think Kakashi is a very damaged person ( and he knows it.) and due to his own Neurosis his ability to properly teach and guide these kids was stunted. If thats the case, choosing him to lead them was a severe mistep on Hiruzen's part. 

I'll hit back with my own, more detailed thoughts in a bit. 

I'm not here to bash Kakashi, or see him be bashed, I want some thoughtful discussion, thank you <3

 


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#2 DrK

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 04:31 PM

I don't want to accept that he knew who Naruto was because it's unacceptable to me that anyone is friends with him in that case. So I won't say anything about that.

 

He is like half responsible for Sasuke along with Sasuke himself. Because without Kakashi, Sasuke is defeated and goes back to Konoha.

 

He needed to be critical of Sakura for her behavior towards Sasuke in part 1. It is irresponsible to allow that kind of behavior where Naruto is the odd man out just because she happens to idolize Sasuke. Though in the manga this whole thing didn't come off as that kitten. Also don't push her towards Sasuke at the end.

 

He was distant and a terrible sensei because he focused on Sasuke when Sasuke was no more capable than Naruto and Sakura hardly had any skills at all. When he realized that Naruto was in fact competent, which he should have been able to do very early, he should have focused on them equally at least. His treatment isn't remotely fair and in reality Naruto and Sakura would resent this guy for a long time. Not think nostalgically about him.



#3 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:33 PM

I don't want to accept that he knew who Naruto was because it's unacceptable to me that anyone is friends with him in that case. So I won't say anything about that.

 

He is like half responsible for Sasuke along with Sasuke himself. Because without Kakashi, Sasuke is defeated and goes back to Konoha.

 

He needed to be critical of Sakura for her behavior towards Sasuke in part 1. It is irresponsible to allow that kind of behavior where Naruto is the odd man out just because she happens to idolize Sasuke. Though in the manga this whole thing didn't come off as that kitten. Also don't push her towards Sasuke at the end.

 

He was distant and a terrible sensei because he focused on Sasuke when Sasuke was no more capable than Naruto and Sakura hardly had any skills at all. When he realized that Naruto was in fact competent, which he should have been able to do very early, he should have focused on them equally at least. His treatment isn't remotely fair and in reality Naruto and Sakura would resent this guy for a long time. Not think nostalgically about him.

I don't think that accepting he knew who Naruto was and didn't do more then he did makes him horrible. There could be extenuating circumstances. Kakashi might have felt guilt, or had his own circumstances that kept him away. or as a soldier he was out right ordered to stand down and treat Naruto as any other orphan in the village for what ever reason. Sure it makes him..flawed but we knew he was from the very get go. Kakashi literally comes from a time where there were child soldiers in active warfare. I think in many ways, the issues we have seen in him are only half of what he would actually have if he were a real person. 

Given that we don't know we can really only speculate what the reason no one stepped in for Naruto was, my personal leaning is that it was some typical Village politicking at play. 

Kakashi displayed some seriously questionable judgement as someone who should have known better, He saw himself in Sasuke and figured he would follow the same pattern he would have when as someone with the experiences he's had he should have realized you can't predict human behavior, and given the blood thirsty tendencies Sasuke was exhibiting, giving him a lethal weapon was a big damn no. In fact as far as I'm concerned allowing team 7 to even JOIN The chuunin exams at the stage they were in was a god awful idea "you might die lol but OK its ur choice have fun kids." 

Treating Sasuke as rudely as he treats everyone else would have been my preferred method of dealing with him until he wised up and acted appropriately. 

As for Sakura he should have been focusing on making what she was good at better, The whole Genjutsu thing was a major missed opportunity for her. Being able to trap enemies in Genjutsu while she works on healing a felled comrade, or escape with the wounded would have been an invaluable skill as a medic. 

The fact of the matter is Kakashi isn't just supposed to be a guy who shows up every few days and makes the kids run through drills and catch random cats, but someone who mentors them into being stronger people, mentally&physically. For Sakura he should have pulled her aside and explained pointed out that the way Sasuke treats her is a reflection of how she treats Naruto, and that maybe if she treated him more like she wanted to be treated, she'd see better results. 

As for Naruto he could subtly run the same routine on Naruto as he ran on Sakura "Try imitating a bit of the behavior she seems to like." 

At least that way we'd have some measure of civility. 






 


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#4 DrK

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:44 PM

Yeah... but he did more than neglect Naruto. He looked down on Naruto for coming up with his own impressive taijutsu sequence while complimenting Sasuke for copying it. He looked down on Jiraiya for teaching Naruto a technique while doing the same with Sasuke... It's completely incomprehensible that he would view his sensei's son this way. As an annoyance who could never be great.



#5 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:49 PM

Maybe its less to do with Minato and more to do with Kushina? Maybe he didn't like her  :umm: as unfair as it is, its very possible that Kakashi had his own prejudices to get over. like 90% of the village. Its also possible that Kishimoto, in the way that he does most things doesn't think about his writing and due to lack of forethought he inadvertently ruins characters.  :hehehe:


Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 20 November 2017 - 06:22 PM.

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#6 DrK

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 05:58 PM

Maybe its less to do with Minato and more to do with Kushina? Maybe he didn't like her  :umm: as unfair as it is, its very possible that Kakashi had his own prejudices to get over. like 90% of the village. Its also possible that Kishimoto, in the way that he does most things doesn't think about his writing and dude to lack of forethought he inadvertently ruins characters.  :hehehe:

Yeah, I can totally imagine a story where Kakashi resented Kushina taking time away from someone who he saw as a surrogate father. The young Kakashi isn't really someone to be admired. Even Sasuke is better than him, honestly. The young Kakashi would never have respected Naruto as Sasuke ultimately did before his fall.



#7 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 06:30 PM

Yeah, I can totally imagine a story where Kakashi resented Kushina taking time away from someone who he saw as a surrogate father. The young Kakashi isn't really someone to be admired. Even Sasuke is better than him, honestly. The young Kakashi would never have respected Naruto as Sasuke ultimately did before his fall.

I think more of the resentment would come from the tailed beast issue. I mean on one hand he could KNOW its not Kushina's fault she is what she is, but also hate the fact that she's the embodiment of why he lost so many friends, compounding onto the fact that now His teacher is too busy, and then ultimately the both of them are ALSO killed because Kurama even exists and gets to continue existing inside Naruto when both have died. 

On one level there can be the knowledge that none of it is Naruto's fault, and on another grief, resentment, ect. 

Looking at Kakashi likes this makes me like him more  :lmao:


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#8 AHK

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:36 PM

I don't know about Neurosis or Neuroticism, always risky to give these kind of labels to characters but there are certainly things he could have done better (Aren't there always?). 
 
I don't think he should be blamed for Naruto's early childhood, Team 7 is Naruto's warm point. 
 
While Kakashi could have done more for Sasuke, the choice ultimately is Sasuke's. There is the failing of a teacher here, but I would be hesitant to come down hard on him for it.
 
I don't think he mishandled Sakura (There is less interaction with him and her than there is with the other two members, though).

Lmao

“I don’t think he should be blamed for Naruto’s early childhood.” - Kakashi’s teacher, mentor, and friend dies and leaves behind a child, Kakashi utterly ignores Naruto for years, allows Naruto be mistreated by villagers for years, blatantly favors Sasuke to Naruto’s detriment, such that he pawns off Naruto on Ebisu of all people despite Naruto being in the same round as Sasuke in the Chuunin exams. At least Jiraiya had a reasonable, feasible excuse.

“I don’t think he mishandled Sakura” - except that he blatantly favored Sasuke, didn’t teach her anything, allowed and encouraged her disgusting pursuit of Sasuke, etc.

Stop with this nonsense. Kakashi was a horrible teacher. He didn’t teach either of them anything up the the point where Naruto was trying to infuse a nature with his Rasengan.

 

Kakashi was at the very least extremely negligent towards Naruto and Sakura, and definitely was culpable for the way those two ended up.  


Edited by AHK, 20 November 2017 - 09:40 PM.

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#9 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:40 PM

 such that he pawns off Naruto on Ebisu of all people despite Naruto being in the same round as Sasuke in the Chuunin exams.

“I don’t think he mishandled Sakura” - except that he blatantly favored Sasuke, didn’t teach her anything, allowed and encouraged her disgusting pursuit of Sasuke, etc.

 

I forgot when he went to give Sasuke special training he basically left Naruto flapping in the wind. 


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#10 AHK

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:17 PM

Okay...sure, it's valid to be hard on Kakashi for this, but honestly I pin it on Hiruzen, and each villager as a whole. He was not hurtulf to Naruto, and personally I do not think he was obligated to go out of his way, either. This is my opinion, mind, nothing objective about this. Upon meeting him though he is a functional teacher pretty much. This same point could be put on Jirayai too, more so, even, but with Kakashi I don't see the point.
 
I don't think he mishandled Sakura. He had reasons for favoring Sasuke, they both had Sharingan. As for teaching her stuff...well, he did? Did a little teaching in the one pre-Chuunin Exam Arc he got to work with.
 
This is my opinion though, obviously not a fact, so feel free to disagree. 
 
Honestly, again, these Team 7 issues just stem from needing another arch.

He wasn’t hurtful to Naruto, except that Kakashi ignored the newborn child of his mentor, teacher, and friend, he treated Naruto like he was second rate in comparison to Sasuke, such that he didn’t even bother to help him during the chuunin exam, electing to ditch him and leave him to Ebisu. Again, he wasn’t a functional teacher. Also, no, the same could not be applied to Jiraiya, not at all. Jiraiya, at the very least, has some feasible excuse, as he was out and about maintaining his spy network and getting info on the Akatsuki, and had already developed powerful enemies that could have come after Naruto. Kakashi isn’t even close to comparable.

Oh really? Please tell me one thing one thing that helped Naruto or Sakura aside from the tree climbing excercise, which he left them to figure out on their own, by the way. He didn’t teach either of them kitten, until Naruto’s nature training. It’s inexcusable and he wasn’t a good teacher. He didn’t favor Sasuke because he had the Sharingan, he favored Sasuke because Kakashi was reminded of himself, and he abandoned the other two students he had because of that. He was a piss poor excuse for a teacher.

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#11 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:24 PM

Kakashi is clearly a misogynist. He helped Naruto and Sasuke more then he helped Sakura  :lmao:


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#12 DrK

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:26 PM

You can tell that he actually approved of Sakura's constant support of Sasuke, despite the fact that it would have had no real benefit to the team since Sakura was neglecting her own training and sometimes making Naruto feel like crap. Just because it might make Sasuke feel important, even though Kakashi was doing plenty of that already.



#13 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:30 PM

You can tell that he actually approved of Sakura's constant support of Sasuke, despite the fact that it would have had no real benefit to the team since Sakura was neglecting her own training and sometimes making Naruto feel like crap. Just because it might make Sasuke feel important, even though Kakashi was doing plenty of that already.

I really think this is his guilt about Rin showing through in some ways. It might be that when all was said and done, and he'd matured and looked back on her and how much she loved him he wished he could have done things differently and saw Sasuke and Sakura if only for a bit as a redo. 

That being said you'd think he would have pushed NS more considering Naruto was Obito's successor. Although this could go back to the theory that he had lingering resentments  :umm: 

I really like this theory....


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#14 DrK

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:36 PM

That being said you'd think he would have pushed NS more considering Naruto was Obito's successor. Although this could go back to the theory that he had lingering resentments  :umm:

Or he could have gone for KakaSaku. It would be doing Sakura a huge favor, since being with a dude who is 15 years older isn't so bad compared to what actually happened.



#15 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:43 PM

See i actually like Kakasaku :fu:

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#16 DrK

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:53 PM

The age thing doesn't really bother me, more so the fact that, as was previously stated, he ignored Sakura in the past when she needed a lot of help. That kind of treatment is absolutely nothing compared to what the case was with SS, though.



#17 BlackShirtGuy

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:13 PM

In hindsight, all of the rookies teachers are guility of playing favorites, Kakashi did it with Sasuke that much is clear, Gai did it with Lee(to be fair, Neiji just like Sasuke had a lot of bloodthirst in him, so he probably did right not to train him much at least until he resolved those, but why neglect Ten-Ten?), Kurenai jeez I dunno but I think Hinata(maybe because she was a girl in "love" and she can relate to that? or because she saw her as the weakest of the group and thought she needed guideance the most, I dunno). Asuma was the only who actually tried to have his students on equal ground, but even  him spent more time with Shikamaru.

Kakashi was a pretty bad sensei that much is clear, instead of trying to make Sasuke change his mindset on vengance and the future, he just cared about making him stronger, which ultimately led to all of Sasuke's deeds post part 2, completely fuled by vengance and getting more powerful. Heck, the only time he actually talked to him about stop being a douche was just before he decided to leave for good, and he didn't even bother staying with him. He just left on a mission, sorry but shouldn't Jounin assigned to a gennin team should be excluded from missions until at least they graduate to chuunin, seems pretty irresponsible to left a couple of soldier kids IN-TRAINING alone.


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#18 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:15 PM

@BlackShirtGuy

You ninja'd me m8...


yea, but ignoring her makes it less creepy when they hook up VS lavishing attention on her as a kid.  :argh: But at least he never tries to kill her. 

I mentioned this before but holy hell Leesaku was such a missed opportunity on Kishi's part. The lolz it could have caused. 


Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 20 November 2017 - 11:16 PM.

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#19 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:19 PM

In hindsight, all of the rookies teachers are guility of playing favorites, Kakashi did it with Sasuke that much is clear, Gai did it with Lee(to be fair, Neiji just like Sasuke had a lot of bloodthirst in him, so he probably did right not to train him much at least until he resolved those, but why neglect Ten-Ten?), Kurenai jeez I dunno but I think Hinata(maybe because she was a girl in "love" and she can relate to that? or because she saw her as the weakest of the group and thought she needed guideance the most, I dunno). Asuma was the only who actually tried to have his students on equal ground, but even  him spent more time with Shikamaru.

Kakashi was a pretty bad sensei that much is clear, instead of trying to make Sasuke change his mindset on vengance and the future, he just cared about making him stronger, which ultimately led to all of Sasuke's deeds post part 2, completely fuled by vengance and getting more powerful. Heck, the only time he actually talked to him about stop being a douche was just before he decided to leave for good, and he didn't even bother staying with him. He just left on a mission, sorry but shouldn't Jounin assigned to a gennin team should be excluded from missions until at least they graduate to chuunin, seems pretty irresponsible to left a couple of soldier kids IN-TRAINING alone.

This is true. I understand from the stand point of a teacher, that when you have one student who is really "Excelling." you want to foster that, but at the same time dumping everyone else to focus on the genius isn't right. I think out of the teachers Asuma and Gai were the most successful ultimately. 

The thing about Kakashi is that he very clearly knows he sucked at his job and he's remorseful but also proud of what they managed to do without him. Its hard to hate him 


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#20 DrK

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:20 PM

LeeSaku doesn't work for me. I can't see her being amused by Lee's eccentricity in the way that she is with Naruto... It's too in your face and constant. Naruto is a goofball and makes her laugh, but he also has his moments of quiet care for her. Lee would be way too much. He'd want to carry her bridal style everywhere. Also I think she still has some of that Ino type shallowness where she wants a handsome guy, and Naruto did become that. Lee is never going to fit that ideal. I just don't think Sakura would ever come around to him, even if Sasuke and Naruto both died or something.







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