55 replies to this topic

[catsi563]

*sigh* yet another cliched hollywood style story.

*cue dramatic voice* Oh god we couldnt possibly be more then friends not with us haivng clear feelings for each other. OHNO how dare we actually have the courage to cross the boaundary and say what we--and every other living thing in Konoha-- know to be true.

And its not like we have feelings for each other after all its clear that medically we must be allergic to each other. how else to explain the butterflys in the stomahc weak knees, heart palpataions, and blushes along with the stabs of jealousy whenever someone even looks cross eyed at the other person.

So well have to convince each other and waste 10 FREAKING YEARS in the process that not only do we enjoy being single but that we have both lied and continue to lie to ourselves that we could never be more then just friends because we couldnt possibly have enough in common and enough history to forgive each other if it doesnt work out.

So well come up with a ridiculously lame scheme to pretend were married and keep up the laughabley absurd pretense that we have no feelings for each other. And continue to deny it until a past side character love interest comes out of nowhere to woo the female of the couple in such a fashion that forces the male to actualy crap a brick sideways and realize his true feelings or vice versa forcing the female to.

thus ripping both characters hearts out untill a final last minute confession of OMG twulub settles the whole issue.

*end dramatc voice*

yet another hollywood cliche

[harry4e]

*sigh* yet another cliched hollywood style story.

*cue dramatic voice* Oh god we couldnt possibly be more then friends not with us haivng clear feelings for each other. OHNO how dare we actually have the courage to cross the boaundary and say what we--and every other living thing in Konoha-- know to be true.

And its not like we have feelings for each other after all its clear that medically we must be allergic to each other. how else to explain the butterflys in the stomahc weak knees, heart palpataions, and blushes along with the stabs of jealousy whenever someone even looks cross eyed at the other person.

So well have to convince each other and waste 10 FREAKING YEARS in the process that not only do we enjoy being single but that we have both lied and continue to lie to ourselves that we could never be more then just friends because we couldnt possibly have enough in common and enough history to forgive each other if it doesnt work out.

So well come up with a ridiculously lame scheme to pretend were married and keep up the laughabley absurd pretense that we have no feelings for each other. And continue to deny it until a past side character love interest comes out of nowhere to woo the female of the couple in such a fashion that forces the male to actualy crap a brick sideways and realize his true feelings or vice versa forcing the female to.

thus ripping both characters hearts out untill a final last minute confession of OMG twulub settles the whole issue.

*end dramatc voice*

yet another hollywood cliche

Actually it's very plausable that something like this could happen with these two, the've both been rejected by the other, We've already seen Naruto come to a piont where he no longer asks Sakura out on a date, and believes she doesn't love him the same way he loves her. They are best friends and have a relationship that is very important to them, With neither of them being in any serious relationships it's very probable that neither of them really felt the urge to do anything to rock the boat so to speak.

OK I agree the ten year thing is lame but I can defintely see the two ending up in a similar relationship, unless Sakura can convnice Naruto otherwise, are far as he is concerned she is still in love with Sasuke, and her confession made for the wrong reasons didn't help matters,

[ciardha]

Actually it's very plausable that something like this could happen with these two, the've both been rejected by the other, We've already seen Naruto come to a piont where he no longer asks Sakura out on a date, and believes she doesn't love him the same way he loves her. They are best friends and have a relationship that is very important to them, With neither of them being in any serious relationships it's very probable that neither of them really felt the urge to do anything to rock the boat so to speak.

OK I agree the ten year thing is lame but I can defintely see the two ending up in a similar relationship, unless Sakura can convnice Naruto otherwise, are far as he is concerned she is still in love with Sasuke, and her confession made for the wrong reasons didn't help matters,

I basically agree with catsi that I wasn't terribly impressed. Again the massive problem is with the writing of Sakura- has her acting like her part 1 self. Seriously folks, go read the manga from chapter 245 onward. It's Sakura that flirts with Naruto again and again in part 2. Sakura made it clear she loves and is even sexually attracted to Naruto. She loves close physical contact with him. And Naruto knows Sakura is in love with him- see his mental image of her after meeting his mother:

http://www.mangaread...hapter-505.html

[ia3]

spoiler --Click here to view--

*sigh* yet another cliched hollywood style story.

*cue dramatic voice* Oh god we couldnt possibly be more then friends not with us haivng clear feelings for each other. OHNO how dare we actually have the courage to cross the boaundary and say what we--and every other living thing in Konoha-- know to be true.

And its not like we have feelings for each other after all its clear that medically we must be allergic to each other. how else to explain the butterflys in the stomahc weak knees, heart palpataions, and blushes along with the stabs of jealousy whenever someone even looks cross eyed at the other person.

So well have to convince each other and waste 10 FREAKING YEARS in the process that not only do we enjoy being single but that we have both lied and continue to lie to ourselves that we could never be more then just friends because we couldnt possibly have enough in common and enough history to forgive each other if it doesnt work out.

So well come up with a ridiculously lame scheme to pretend were married and keep up the laughabley absurd pretense that we have no feelings for each other. And continue to deny it until a past side character love interest comes out of nowhere to woo the female of the couple in such a fashion that forces the male to actualy crap a brick sideways and realize his true feelings or vice versa forcing the female to.

thus ripping both characters hearts out untill a final last minute confession of OMG twulub settles the whole issue.

*end dramatc voice*

yet another hollywood cliche

Actually it's very plausable that something like this could happen with these two, the've both been rejected by the other, We've already seen Naruto come to a piont where he no longer asks Sakura out on a date, and believes she doesn't love him the same way he loves her. They are best friends and have a relationship that is very important to them, With neither of them being in any serious relationships it's very probable that neither of them really felt the urge to do anything to rock the boat so to speak.

OK I agree the ten year thing is lame but I can defintely see the two ending up in a similar relationship, unless Sakura can convnice Naruto otherwise, are far as he is concerned she is still in love with Sasuke, and her confession made for the wrong reasons didn't help matters,

Sorry i really have to disagree with Catsi on Let's get Married. It's really good quality writing. Story ideas are never new, but the way someone writes is what brings it to life, and luvtoshi writes a far cry better than a lot of the authors on here who are raved about.

Just wanted to put it out there so people who are considering reading it aren't too discouraged.

[catsi563]

I should note that Im not dismissing the writing quality nor technically am I dismissing the actual plot.

What i dont like and and criticizing is the utterly cliched parts of the story.

the writier is clearly skilled writing wise and the idea has merit in that a Naruto and Sakura fresh from the war and feeling each other out could come up with the idea in order to get fangirls and counsel pressure off Narutos back and family pressure off Sakuras. from that point they explore each other in a different manner given the marriage and it slowly becomes the real thing.

But this story as Ciardha has pointed out really derails Sakuras character by reverting her to part 1 Sakura, and makes Naruto a complete mouce when it comes to her. the characterization of the two is unbelieveable and even worse cliched. Ive seen this exact plot style of characterization in uncounted tv sitcoms and soaps and movies. And as I stated above I can usualy recite the plot almost word for word.

Ill lay a reasonable bet that within a few chapters the aforemention love interest will make an appearance and woo sakura with the your clearly not happy with this guy leave him line, and Sakura who in this story has stubbornly and unrealisticlly convinced herself that she has none zero nein nix nada absolutely no feelings for Naruto what soever and the cannot will not will never ever ever into infinity be anything more then friends because it would just ruin everything.

Will convince herself that she must logically be in love with this new guy because of the aformeention inability to be in love with naruto and the insanity and hijinx will go from there with jealous Naruto pretending that he couldnt posisbly be affected by it. And Sakura pretending that she isnt feeling what shes feeling.

and itll go from there. Stories like that just drive me nuts. Sakura is not the type to just give up after one bad turn down ((ask Sasuke that one)) but shes also confident enough now to let Naruto know how she feels and be strong enough to acknowledge his feelings which the story admits have never changed.

naruto is also out of character as he himself would finally with Sasuke resolved be able to let her know how he feels and let things flow from there.

Delicious little NS one-shot, This Is, by the general girl.

Now that is more what im talking about. that is how a now adault Naruto and Sakura would and should act towards each other.

Edited by catsi563, 01 July 2011 - 07:25 AM.

[Codus N]

I should note that Im not dismissing the writing quality nor technically am I dismissing the actual plot.

What i dont like and and criticizing is the utterly cliched parts of the story.

the writier is clearly skilled writing wise and the idea has merit in that a Naruto and Sakura fresh from the war and feeling each other out could come up with the idea in order to get fangirls and counsel pressure off Narutos back and family pressure off Sakuras. from that point they explore each other in a different manner given the marriage and it slowly becomes the real thing.

But this story as Ciardha has pointed out really derails Sakuras character by reverting her to part 1 Sakura, and makes Naruto a complete mouce when it comes to her. the characterization of the two is unbelieveable and even worse cliched. Ive seen this exact plot style of characterization in uncounted tv sitcoms and soaps and movies. And as I stated above I can usualy recite the plot almost word for word.

Ill lay a reasonable bet that within a few chapters the aforemention love interest will make an appearance and woo sakura with the your clearly not happy with this guy leave him line, and Sakura who in this story has stubbornly and unrealisticlly convinced herself that she has none zero nein nix nada absolutely no feelings for Naruto what soever and the cannot will not will never ever ever into infinity be anything more then friends because it would just ruin everything.

Will convince herself that she must logically be in love with this new guy because of the aformeention inability to be in love with naruto and the insanity and hijinx will go from there with jealous Naruto pretending that he couldnt posisbly be affected by it. And Sakura pretending that she isnt feeling what shes feeling.

and itll go from there. Stories like that just drive me nuts. Sakura is not the type to just give up after one bad turn down ((ask Sasuke that one)) but shes also confident enough now to let Naruto know how she feels and be strong enough to acknowledge his feelings which the story admits have never changed.

naruto is also out of character as he himself would finally with Sasuke resolved be able to let her know how he feels and let things flow from there.

I strongly disagree. If you happen to read Bakuman, you should remember Hattori's words. "It doesn't matter if you use cliches, It's HOW you use it." And mark my words, this came from the author of Bakuman himself. In fact, I believe this is an important rule for authors. So luvtoshi going with this generic Hollywood trope is fine to me, as long as she knows HOW to execute it WELL.

Regarding the characterization, remember that we have BARELY any NS interaction these days, and the last one wasn't exactly nice. (No, I'm not counting the Ichiraku interaction) So, luvtoshi is basing that off the current condition. In which, that there is STILL that barrier between them. Personally, I think you girls are reading too much between them sometimes. Saying how the relationship's gotten better and such, REALLY, HOW??

Granted, that scene where Naruto falls asleep with the passed out guys after the Team 7 Reunion, seems like he finally got rid of that barrier for good. But really?? we still don't know what he thinks about their relationship. If Kishi would just plain out there and throw Naruto's thoughts about their relationship in, I wouldn't dispute them. And ciardha, your argument about Naruto's image of his peers after he talked to Kushina seems weak IMO. It's plausible but I'm not gonna rule it as canon evidence of Naruto's thoughts.

Manga spoilers --Click here to view--

Although that may change if the real Naruto is currently heading towards the medic camp.

Hopefully we'll have Bee there as well, because I'm betting Naruto will pass out from the overuse of RM. Which will lead to Bee explaining the risks to Sakura. And in turn, leaving an enraged Sakura breaking Naruto's bones for overdoing things again.

And this is a major stretch, but if Bee can get Sakura to fist bump with him, hopefully Bee throws it into their faces about their feelings for each other.

(I will die laughing if Bee decides to make a rap/love song for them and singing it out loud at the camp.)

Edited by Codus N, 02 July 2011 - 04:56 PM.

[harry4e]

I find it amusing the author of Beauty and the Beast NaruSaku style is talking about Hollywood Cliche's, that was a good story in it's own right but don't think the charactorisation was quite right, and the were hollywoodised to fit the disney classic.

I also dissagree about the fic showing more Sakura of pre timeskip than post timeskip, besides there were not that difference between the two charactors, main difference was confindence, she is more sure about her abilities, and knows she has earned the right to stand beside her teamates in battle, but we still see that insecure girl that see's her teamates going beyond her reach, she is still conflicted about her feelings, And anyone who argues otherwise should remember the scene where she went to kill Sasuke and failed, or when random Ninja confessed to her it was Sasuke's face that came to mind first, atleast in Luvtoshi's fic she is no longer conflicted about her feelings, she's still in denial about her feelings for Naruto, which is the similar as in the Manga where she has still to realise her feelings, (And I still don't think her confession was genuine, Yes she loves Naruto, but is she in Love with him? To the outsider yes, but she hasn't realised it herself.)

Like the idea for this fic because I can see it happening in Cannon, let's not forget Sakura herself didn't even realise Naruto still had feeling for her until Sai came out and outright told her, after the rejecion, who's to say she hasn't gone back to thinking the same as before and thought Sai was mistaken.

[ciardha]

Regarding the characterization, remember that we have BARELY any NS interaction these days, and the last one wasn't exactly nice. (No, I'm not counting the Ichiraku interaction)

Really? Naruto, rescuing Sakura from Sasuke, Sakura looking at Naruto thankful and with love in her eyes, Naruto's lingering contact after he sets her down, etc.... Then the openness in their interactions on the return to Konoha, Sakura's defense of Naruto to their friends, and then the Ichiraku scene with yet more openness between them, Naruto's new mental image of Sakura in chapter 505....

This is the problem in a part of narusaku fandom. Instead of looking at what's happening in the manga, you know story canon, they decide some fanfic that writes Sakura in a more negative aspect of her part 1 self is accurate. Uh no.

So, luvtoshi is basing that off the current condition. In which, that there is STILL that barrier between them. Personally, I think you girls are reading too much between them sometimes. Saying how the relationship's gotten better and such, REALLY, HOW??

What barrier? Look above at the summary of manga canon. I see no barrier. There never was the sort of barrier luvtoshi depicts in the first place. Sakura never went into denial about her feelings for Naruto, never rejected physical contact with Naruto- not even early on in part 1. In fact she's the one who makes the first non punching physical contact with Naruto when she throws herself on top Naruto when Zabuza first attacks (much to Naruto's fiercely blushing pleasure- and Sakura doesn't do the stereotypical tsundere reaction of getting mad and hitting him afterward either), Sakura is the one who is holding up Naruto as they walk home from a mission, while she gently chides him for "overdoing it". This all in the first part of part 1, before we even get to the Chunin exams.


As for feelings, Sakura is stunned she's feeling something she recognizes as a romantic love feeling for Naruto in chapter 13, but she doesn't deny it to herself, she just leaves it there as something kind of confusing. When Naruto makes the POAL Sakura's thoughts echo part of her words in her confession in 469- which is Kishimoto showing you she was already consciously starting to fall in love with Naruto right there. Sakura doesn't go into any denial of her feelings for Naruto, in fact it builds. Already by the time she goes to Tsunade at the end of part 1 there is hints she's decided to move on from Sasuke- trying to get Naruto to end the POAL, then when he doesn't the way she speaks to Naruto about them going after Sasuke the next time- note the lack of any romantic context about Sasuke in her words and already how she's shifting it completely over to being about the brother-like bond between Naruto and Sasuke. Not partly, like when she made the request that prompted Naruto's POAL. Then it's made clear that in her mind Sakura's feelings for Naruto is already equal to her feelings for Sasuke.

Then there is part 2. From the first moment Sakura sees Naruto she blushes and flirts with him- outright inviting him look at her body in a sexual way. She nearly has some sort of romantic love confession to Naruto during the rescue Gaara arc, she already knows she feels a heck of a lot more than "friendship" for Naruto and is expressing it in word and gesture. The flirting- sexual attraction, affection for, the intense empathy- so much that she openly cries over his pain and fear, fierce protectiveness, absolute trust and belief in him. The moment Yamato says to her "it's the depth of your feelings..." Sakura's eyes widen not in shock, but in enlightenment- there's certainly no denial there, and from then on Sakura becomes even more open in expressing her feelings for Naruto and initiating physical contact- the playful very typical Japanese girlfriend-like teasingly saying Naruto's nickname is "baka", the overt seductiveness in 343 when she attempts to feed Naruto, the romantic embrace of Naruto in front of the whole village, and finally her confession and fierce insistence of her feelings for Naruto in 470 (at which point Naruto doesn't deny he gets she does have feelings for him now- he appears to think she loves both Sasuke and himself- as seen in his initial reactions to Sai's words in 474. When his image of Sakura as the Sasuke fangirl shatters he finally gets what Sakura and Sai tell him. When we next see Naruto and Sakura interact it's with open tenderness, protectiveness, and romantic physical contact. Note as well Naruto's words to Sasuke about Sakura omit entirely anything about her romantic feelings for Sasuke, it's all on the team mate bond.

Also iluvtoshi has Sasuke not only with a woman but with kids? Uh no. That's certainly waaaayyy off character. Sasuke has made it absolutely clear his idea of restoring his clan has absolutely nothing to do with getting together with anyone. Sasuke as he is right now, as you claim iluvtoshi is basing things off of, wants to kill everyone....

In conclusion- Nope, not in the slightest related to current canon.

[Madz]

Please….could the argument stop, now?

First of all, Catsi – you lost your bet. The story is nothing like your forecast. The mere fact that it is a romance / humour genre should have been enough to hint at something definitely in the other direction than the drama / dark forecast you mentioned. And yes, I know the story is very cliché…what can I say? I just love any excuse to write about Narusaku.

Ciardha – the message intended was definitely NOT for a younger like Sakura. In this story, I wanted to show that she would follow Naruto blindly – which should say something in itself. The paragraph about her habit of nagging was an indication that action is louder than words. Her actions speak of her devotion to Naruto, where it has already, in reality, crossed the boundary of normal friendship… I have left many hints about a closer than normal bond…I have always value your opinion greatly, and I would have been very sad that I failed to put across this message. But I’ve had positive reviews and PM that it was understood, people get where I’m coming, so I’ll take hope in that. Maybe there would be odd ones who would not get this point, then that’ll be my failure. As the adage go, you cannot please everyone.
As for Sasuke…I won’t even go in that…that’s my own crazy fantasy.

The age is 25 years is because this is not an after-war romance. It Was Always You was about that, where when all issues have been solved, the war, rebuilding, Sasuke back – it was time for Naruto to take the step.
Whereas THIS story is about a missed time, a missed opportunity – where they are over that slot when they could have done something about it and had instead settled too deeply, too comfortably in a friendship (which even though is closer than usual friendship) to take any steps, where all the friends are settled and it was really a reason to have pressure on them - then bam, this situation crop up. So, for this to be feasible, it had to be at an advanced age.
And I know maybe I’m the odd one, but I LOVE the Narusaku bond even without romance in it, so for me, it has equal importance as a romance story between them.

I’m in no way angry about the honest opinion given – I truly respect any opinions given.

I really, really, from the bottom of my heart, thank those who had been so ardently defending this story. I cannot even express how …it made me feel. Thank you, thank you so much.
Though I must also admit that it has increased the pressure dramatically, lol, because now I’m sure that you would all be disappointed, seeing how the expectation is now high. I am NOT as good as you’ve been making sound.

But I’m also human, and I’m a very new, very un-confident writer, so the past days, seeing the argument going to and fro had got me eating my hands in distress, my motivation has plummeted and almost wanting to make me just dump the story in the bin.

For those who had been supporting the story…just don’t get your expectations too high. The disappointment I am expecting is even worse than the non positive comments I had.
The story is already completed though, so I will post it.

This is just a …fanfiction. Fan..fiction.

Maybe I should just be off H&E for the time that this story over.

Sorry for the long novel.

Edited by Madz, 03 July 2011 - 05:08 PM.

[tricksie]

madz,

I'm sure that I'll be one of the first of many to tell you don't give up your story. I've stayed out of this irritating back and forth, instead posting my review on your actual story. But I'm more than happy to let everyone know what I think:

I love it, I think the characterizations are delightful, I think the plot is adorable, and I can't wait to see where you go with it. Your talent for writing puts you head-and-shoulders above most other writers.

And let me make this clear: PEOPLE READ FANFIC BECAUSE THEY WANT A VARIATION ON CANON!

It is the world of what-ifs. To bash a story because it doesn't hold to your own opinion of their creation material is narrow-minded. Worse, it is done on a thread designed to give Naru/Saku fans guidance on reliable stories. I read this thread before I read stories on ff.net. I take these reviews pretty seriously. If someone on here says it's worth a look, then I will. If someone says to stay away (ack! harem!), then I do.

In rl you must be a very kind person because you have mentioned that you value everyone's opinion. It speaks volumes about who you are. But I don't think all opinions are equal. These posts never take into account your effort in writing it or your gifts as a writer. These opinions never once offer a thorough understanding of your story or a balanced criticism. Just what they don't like. In reading this nonsense, I just dismissed it. And I think you should too.

I tell myself all the time that the easiest job in the world of fanfic is to be a review writer, not a story writer. Then I go back to writing. And of all the creative things I've done, writing has been one of the hardest. I completely empathize with you. Negative reviews burn into your brain much deeper than the positive, and it takes a near Herculean effort to force them out. But that's what you must do. Just tune all this out. But keep writing, and do it for the ones who love what you do.

Get in touch with your inner-Sakura and stick it to all the bitter hearts by standing by your story, finishing it, and celebrating your amazing talents with the ones who truly appreciate it.

SHANNARO, my dear!

Oh yeah, and 32 reviews on the first chapter should tell you something!

Edited by tricksie, 03 July 2011 - 05:53 PM.

[Super Boom]

I really don't mind the characterization. It's amusing, which is what I generally prefer in these stories. I'm not gonna argue over whether they're already aware of each other's feelings, since, in all fairness, I'm really not that good at reading in between the lines like a lot of people here. I guess I assume, if the average shonen reader is the reading the manga the same way I am, Kishi will have to resolve a few more romantic issues before NS can become canon. And I'd say your story seems to fit that characterization better, and also has more of an appeal to the average fan like me.

But maybe my opinion is skewed, since I started with the anime, which I've heard characterizes Naruto and Sakura's relationship differently. But I'd still say your story is appealing to me. I'm a bit of a sucker for 'best friends become lovers" sort of romances, so if you get that relationship down I'm sold.

So please don't get discouraged! I'll keep reading it if you keep writing it!

Edited by Boom...Winning, 03 July 2011 - 09:17 PM.

[catsi563]

Madz I also say do not give up on your story as well. Please continue writing as you do have solid skills and a respect for the source material.

I tend to be very picky about my own criticism and who and what I give it to. And when i give it its always straightforward and honest--sometimes brutally so-- in its content.

My personal taste is just such that I have a hard time embracing something I see as --cliche might be the wrong way to put it--. its like I simply cant wrap my head around two people with such a clear and established attraction and feelings for each other getting into a state where they so fiercely deny said feelings to a point of near absurdity.

So do forgive the perceived harshness of the critique its a bit more sarcastic then i intended but it holds to what i see as a semi-fundamental flaw in some writing styles. Its a tendancy to make characters fall into patterns of behavior that shoudlnt realistically hold up under even basic scrutiny of friends and family.

I simply find it nuts to be expected to believe that NO ONE in Naruto and Sakuras family and friends has not only not called them on this but that has not actively taken action to pusht hem closer. I also find it equally nuts that no one has come in and taken advantage by inserting themselves. With such a fierce denial going on between the two of them the relation becomes strained.

Thats all. please dont lose faith and keep writing.

[ciardha]

And let me make this clear: PEOPLE READ FANFIC BECAUSE THEY WANT A VARIATION ON CANON!

Really? Then why do 90% of narusaku fanfic writers write Sakura in the same OOC for the manga characterization, the same few negative variants to the way she's been written since part 1? Doesn't sound like much variation to me. If you are writing a narusaku fanfic especially, you look like you haven't read the story if you write Sakura in the same narrow range of more negative than manga depiction.

If they want "variety" it sure is strange how so few narusaku fanfic writers actually do something "original" and write Sakura even the slightest bit more positive than Kishimoto does- instead they use the same old negative mischaracterizations everyone else does.

One only has to look at the disgust directed at the anime when they create a "variation on canon" to see that's way too broad a generalization you are making. Many narusaku fans do not read fanfic to see the same old negative mischaracterization you can find on fandom forums written out in a story.... A number of narusaku fans read fanfic to see the characters advanced from the canon story- a writer actually paying attention to what's happened in manga canon and taken it from there, or to read about a moment Kishimoto hints at but didn't write.

My long reply was directed at Codus not madz. Codus stated madz's story was in canon for the characterization. That really irritated me because I knew it definitely wasn't and pointed out how it was far off and that it was even off for part 1. It's one of the very common fandom mischaracterization types. I get annoyed seeing the same old mischaracterization in fanfic over and over because it leads to fans to misread the manga because they have these negative mischaracterizations set in their heads, just like anime only fans, but worse, because these fandom depictions go even more negative- even in 90% of narusaku fanfics than the anime does. I blame fanfic, even fanfic that claims to be narusaku even more than the anime for the grossly negative image Western online Naruto fandom has of Sakura.

This isn't personally directed at madz, it's a criticism of narusaku fanfic in general.

I could spend all day if I wanted to- and I don't, creating a list of "narusaku" fanfics that mischaracterize Sakura the same way- "only friends", strong denial of it being anything more, avoiding physical contact with Naruto, etc... Shockingly (or it should be), amongst narusaku fanfic this is the "better" of the most common negative mischaracterization of Sakura...

A professional writer, who often writes stories with other people's characters, told his writing credo years ago- "Write the characters a little better than what's in canon, even if you don't like a character. Build on what is canon characterization, don't rip it apart just because you want to do something 'different'- chances are quite high what you think is 'different' isn't that innovative and will just hack off the readers who like the character or characters."

Fanfic is the same. You are writing in another writer's universe, using their characters. It's not the same as writing an original story with your own characters. You've made a contract of sorts, whether you've realized it or not, that contract means in good faith you are writing those canon character as close to canon characterization as you can.

So many fanfic writers in many fandoms don't get that- that's why many professional writers absolutely loathe fanfic, and some outright ban fanfic. I remember when I was younger and didn't understand why some professional writers banned fanfic with their characters- Anne Rice, Anne McCaffrey (although she's since relented- if it's done following some guidelines, and created a fandom space for it), J.K. Rowling (again for a while, she's since relented), Laurell K. Hamilton, etc...

Then I made friends with some professional writers, who while they didn't ban fanfic they had definite negative feelings about it. That's when I found out why- they disliked the way out of character writing- especially the negative ones. To them it was like getting smacked in the face to see their characters mistreated. (And look how upset Kishimoto reacted to the Sakura bashing letters that characterized Sakura in ways I've seen even in plenty of so called narusaku fanfic.... the variants on "Sakura uses Naruto" type story...) I know other manga writers have expressed similar feelings about negative distortions of their characters in doujinshi, etc... (CLAMP have been vocal about that, and have an opinion that borders on preferring a ban on it. Yuu Watase doesn't care for it- she enjoys fanart and cosplayers, but dislikes doujinshi and fanfic)

Many writers say they don't mind the alternate history type stories (like yours Triskie) or even alternate worlds or settings (some even actually love those...), what they hate is distortion of character's personalities.

I had always unconsciously written my fanfic in much the way my professional writer friend does his writing with other people's chracters, but since I had conversations with professional writers online about fanfic I consciously write that way.

I enjoy the feeling that I'm spreading the knowledge of the canon story source in a constructive way. It's like the concept John and Yoko came up with on their early albums- they called them "unfinished music" meaning fans could build on the foundation, or like Yoko's earlier instruction poems (which was the inspiration for the "unfinished music") take her list of instructions for acting out a piece of conceptual art- using her instructions as a base and building onto that.

The negative distortion of characters in fanfic is like the people who wrote to John Lennon saying they wanted to cover "Imagine" but changing "Imagine no religion" to "Imagine one religion". Of course John said no to that. It would have been a mischaracterization of his words. In fact, writing fanfic where you negatively distort canon characterization is like singing the song "Imagine" in public and making that change and not warning people you were going to do so beforehand... Don't be surprised some people are going to object strongly because you completely mischaracterized the message. Far fewer people will object strongly if you sing the same words, but do it in say blues style...

[Greed-Sama]

@ciardha - Characters and characterization is not an absolute science. What you claim as "canon" and how you interpret the manga can be different from someone else. No one is right. You think directors who produce plays all interpret the character the same way? No. Your argument about how so called narusaku fics are completely off is your opinion, and unless Kishimoto decides to join this forum and declare that it is in fact wrong, and explain it in the exact same words that you used, then it will still be just your opinion.

[ciardha]

@ciardha - Characters and characterization is not an absolute science. What you claim as "canon" and how you interpret the manga can be different from someone else. No one is right. You think directors who produce plays all interpret the character the same way? No. Your argument about how so called narusaku fics are completely off is your opinion, and unless Kishimoto decides to join this forum and declare that it is in fact wrong, and explain it in the exact same words that you used, then it will still be just your opinion.

Uh, take a look at what I pointed out to Codus. That isn't "interpretation" that's overt actions and reactions in canon. That's what 90% of even narusaku fanfic writers are not just ignoring but overtly contradicting in negative ways. This negative take on Sakura isn't coming from manga canon, it's not even coming that much from the anime adaption, it's fandom copying the same negative mischaracterizations that have been around since part 1 of the manga. Negative mischaracterizations that have their origins amongst the portion of the fandom that have bashed Sakura since part 1- because they are extreme shippers of Naruto with someone else. These people were and are a very vocal minority, but as the saying goes: "repeat a lie enough times and (some) people will be convinced it's the truth."

[Grace]

Uh, take a look at what I pointed out to Codus. That isn't "interpretation" that's overt actions and reactions in canon. That's what 90% of even narusaku fanfic writers are not just ignoring but overtly contradicting in negative ways. This negative take on Sakura isn't coming from manga canon, it's not even coming that much from the anime adaption, it's fandom copying the same negative mischaracterizations that have been around since part 1 of the manga. Negative mischaracterizations that have their origins amongst the portion of the fandom that have bashed Sakura since part 1- because they are extreme shippers of Naruto with someone else. These people were and are a very vocal minority, but as the saying goes: "repeat a lie enough times and (some) people will be convinced it's the truth."

So you're upset that fans, writing fanfiction, decide to use a different view of the characters and pairing than you? A view which you yourself have stated as being started by fans. So what if it originally came from fans of other pairings, or people that don't like Sakura? And so what if it's being used by people that write NaruSaku now? It's fan fiction because it's from the view of fans that mean to write their own take/spinoff/continuation/whathaveyou of the series the fanfic is for. If a NaruSaku writer doesn't write the characters the way you like, stop reading it. If you don't like the storyline they use, stop reading it. Feel free to reply and tell them what you don't like about it, of course, but don't go saying they're wrong or are misinterpreting the original work just because you don't like what they've chosen to write in their own fan-created alternate universe.

Because that's what just about every single fanfic is by default: an alternate universe. Unless someone sat down to write the original story over, word for word, action by action, then anything created by the fans as far as fiction goes is going to naturally differ from the source. How it differs and why is not for you to judge as right or wrong, but rather to enjoy or not enjoy.

And about "90% of writers" using the same characterizations or plots--first off, I think your numbers are whack. Second, yes a good portion of NaruSaku writers use shallow characterizations and repetitive plots. This can be because a lot of them only follow the anime, or only the dub, or only really know the dynamics of the pairing based on other fanfic they've read or forum-talk. Or it could just be because there are some plot ideas that are generally well-liked and different people want to give their own spin on them. Whether or not they do that well is another story, but the fact still remains that just because they chose to do so doesn't mean they're in some way wrong.

[Chew]

So you're upset that fans, writing fanfiction, decide to use a different view of the characters and pairing than you? A view which you yourself have stated as being started by fans. So what if it originally came from fans of other pairings, or people that don't like Sakura? And so what if it's being used by people that write NaruSaku now? It's fan fiction because it's from the view of fans that mean to write their own take/spinoff/continuation/whathaveyou of the series the fanfic is for. If a NaruSaku writer doesn't write the characters the way you like, stop reading it. If you don't like the storyline they use, stop reading it. Feel free to reply and tell them what you don't like about it, of course, but don't go saying they're wrong or are misinterpreting the original work just because you don't like what they've chosen to write in their own fan-created alternate universe.

Because that's what just about every single fanfic is by default: an alternate universe. Unless someone sat down to write the original story over, word for word, action by action, then anything created by the fans as far as fiction goes is going to naturally differ from the source. How it differs and why is not for you to judge as right or wrong, but rather to enjoy or not enjoy.

And about "90% of writers" using the same characterizations or plots--first off, I think your numbers are whack. Second, yes a good portion of NaruSaku writers use shallow characterizations and repetitive plots. This can be because a lot of them only follow the anime, or only the dub, or only really know the dynamics of the pairing based on other fanfic they've read or forum-talk. Or it could just be because there are some plot ideas that are generally well-liked and different people want to give their own spin on them. Whether or not they do that well is another story, but the fact still remains that just because they chose to do so doesn't mean they're in some way wrong.

QFT. Very wise...just like Naruto's mother XD

Anyway, I would go ahead and write what I was going to say earlier (but couldn't due to me having work), but it seems Kushina said it perfectly: it's called fan fiction for a reason. There are different perspectives, and different ways in which people interpret characters. Some of them you may not all agree with, and that's completely understandable- but if I were an author having another fellow fan (who's obviously not Kishimoto) telling me "You're doing it wrong," then I'd be a bit offended, as both an author, and a fan.

Sorry Ciardha, I normally hold your opinions in the highest regard, and almost always agree with them, but this is the one time where I do not. Sorry if it seems we're attacking you! We're just sharing our opinions too, so let's not get all heated (if that's where it's going).

[Jenskott]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the Great NS Fic listing NOT the Great NS fic debate thread.

Actually discussion about fanfiction is allowed.

All what I am going to tell about the subject is I read fanfiction why I want reading more adventures about the characters I love. I am not interested in fanfiction changes the characters, their backgrounds and personalities in order to fit with whatever whims or prejudices the writer holds.

But it is fanfiction! someone may tell me. And I would respond: EXACTLY. It is FAN fiction. Not Original fiction. If you aren't going to write the characters respecting their base personalities, then you should create your own universe, where you can set the rules instead of altering someone else's, all the while while pretending you are showing respect.

Well, if you don't like, then don't read! another person can tell. And I could reply "How am I supposed to know I don't like if I don't read it?", but I won't do it. My retort is way simpler: I don't do it. I don't read that kind of stories. But if the subject is brought up, I don't see why I should not state I don't like and explain my reasons.

[Greed-Sama]

Actually discussion about fanfiction is allowed.

All what I am going to tell about the subject is I read fanfiction why I want reading more adventures about the characters I love. I am not interested in fanfiction changes the characters, their backgrounds and personalities in order to fit with whatever whims or prejudices the writer holds.

But it is fanfiction! someone may tell me. And I would respond: EXACTLY. It is FAN fiction. Not Original fiction. If you aren't going to write the characters respecting their base personalities, then you should create your own universe, where you can set the rules instead of altering someone else's, all the while while pretending you are showing respect.

Well, if you don't like, then don't read! another person can tell. And I could reply "How am I supposed to know I don't like if I don't read it?", but I won't do it. My retort is way simpler: I don't do it. I don't read that kind of stories. But if the subject is brought up, I don't see why I should not state I don't like and explain my reasons.

And that is absolutely fine. Saying why you don't like something is fine, but saying it is WRONG, that's an entirely different story.

[ciardha]

Actually discussion about fanfiction is allowed.

All what I am going to tell about the subject is I read fanfiction why I want reading more adventures about the characters I love. I am not interested in fanfiction changes the characters, their backgrounds and personalities in order to fit with whatever whims or prejudices the writer holds.

But it is fanfiction! someone may tell me. And I would respond: EXACTLY. It is FAN fiction. Not Original fiction. If you aren't going to write the characters respecting their base personalities, then you should create your own universe, where you can set the rules instead of altering someone else's, all the while while pretending you are showing respect.

Well, if you don't like, then don't read! another person can tell. And I could reply "How am I supposed to know I don't like if I don't read it?", but I won't do it. My retort is way simpler: I don't do it. I don't read that kind of stories. But if the subject is brought up, I don't see why I should not state I don't like and explain my reasons.

Thank you! I was thinking about making those points too, but wanted to talk about how the negative distortions of their characters in fanfic upsets the writers who create the charcaters and that's why so many dislike fanfic (including some manga writers)

As I said earlier, Kishimoto has already made the point that fans characterizing Sakura more negatively than in the manga really upsets him. That should be a message loud and clear to any fanfic writers- but especially narusaku fanfic writers, distorting Sakura's character in a negative way is something that absolutely should not be done. You are not respecting the work or the writer when you write characters more negatively than in canon. Respecting would involve following the credo of my professional writer friend- writing the characters personalities and choices a bit better than in canon even if you don't like the character.

Jenskott's points are exactly why I read fanfic and why I get disgusted when I start to read a so called narusaku fanfic someone recommends just to find yet another that distorts Sakura's character in a negative way. And if anything, 90% is a conservative percentage. It's a very tiny minority of narusaku fanfic that even comes close to canon characterization of Sakura, much less one truly respects the story and writes the character a bit better than canon. Sakura suffers from negative mischaracterization in narusaku fanfic more than any other character- even the shipper rival romantic characters of Hinata and Sasuke.

And Omegaman Jenskott was saying it is wrong to write that way too.

If you aren't going to write the characters respecting their base personalities, then you should create your own universe, where you can set the rules instead of altering someone else's, all the while while pretending you are showing respect.

I've heard a number of professional writers say almost exactly this as to why they hate fanfic. An example that I still remember 11 years later- "If they can't write my characters like they are, why are they stealing my story? Write your own stories!" Blunt quote from Warren Ellis (with the F word edited out for this forum...) on why he hates fanfic, promptly echoed by Lea Hernandez and other professional writers on the Warren Ellis Forum in 2000. Although Hernandez went even further and stated as far as she was concerned all fanfic with her characters were banned and she would consider legal action if she discovered any.

As I said, even some manga writers are edging toward this opinion of fanfic, all because of the negative mischaracterization of their characters. Kishimoto has made it clear he doesn't like any negative mischaracteriations of Sakura. He hasn't said that about any other character but he's made it clear that he doesn't want it about Sakura. So let's make it blunt- You are directly disrespecting Kishimoto's wishes for how he wants Sakura to be seen by fans when you write fanfic with her where you depict her more negatively than in canon.

Edited by ciardha, 04 July 2011 - 07:47 PM.