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Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 18 June 2014 - 07:26 AM
Some people can't take a joke...I liked it though
LOL Thanks well at lest someone get it that it was a joke , and here i thought that it was an obvious one 
Was that a joke? He made me lough but I though he was serious about it.
Yes Don that was a joke I wasn't serious , but hey at least i made someone laugh and that's bonus 
Edited by NarutoFireFoxUzumaki, 18 June 2014 - 07:27 AM.
絶対 負けない
Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:50 AM
Itachi was nothing like "insane" or "dumb".Even Itachi had to be a LITTLE crazy to do what he did. Its been said that the line between genius and insanity is a thin one, and maybe he had a toe over that line. As much as I like Itachi even I have to admit that for as smart as he was, he was also awfully dumb. He thought that people were like chess pieces that he could move around, that he could guess what they would do and be right.
He was sadly very wrong.
Just because a person is manipulated into doing something does not excuse them from their actions.
Who has really desire to kill ? Obito was blinded, he never really thought about it. He began to think when Naruto talked to him.They still had desire and intent to do it within the context of their knowledge. They knew what they were doing was wrong, knew it would hurt people and they did it anyways.
It's the same with Obito. Madara was his "voice in his head". He was weak, Madara took advantage of it. He manipulated him. He used his suffering to use him as a tool.Gaara on the other hand DIDN'T know. He was a kid with a voice inside his head telling him to do things. He didn't have anyone to tell him otherwise. He was convinced his only purpose was to kill.
Obito and Sasuke care about the life of the dear ones they lost. It's blinding them. Rin... it's not about "wanting" her. He just couldn't accept what happened, he wanted to create a world were she could be alive.Sasuke and Obito are just selfish individuals who only care about their own wants. Obito wanted Rin, he did whatever he had to to get her.
Just imagine yourself in Sasuke's feet. Just once. Could you take his past and do nothing about it ? They are ninjas. Of course Sasuke would want revenge. All of his family were killed by his brother. Then he learnt his brother forced himself to do so...Sasuke wanted revenge, he hurt whoever he had to to get it and he's not through yet.
No. I didn't. You interpreted it that way.There is you using Sakura's thanks as a justification for Obito's redemption just like I said you did.
Oh yes he wants to protect Konoha. It's clearly stated in the manga. He changed his mind after he talked with the Hokages.SASUKE DOES NOT WANT TO PROTECT KONOHA. ( This is so important its not even funny.)
Yes it's true. But this is not the only reason. Again, his way may don't please you, but he really want to protect Konoha because his brother Itachi cared for Konoha.That is not why he wants to be hokage. He wants to be hokage to keep another tragedy like the one that happened to his family from happening. It has nothing to do with Konoha. It has everything to do with Sasuke yet again.
Well, think as you want about me, I don't care.For someone who claims to not like Sasuke you do an awful lot of justifying his actions and looking at him with rose tinted glasses.
What do you mean by "some people" when you know you are talking about me ? Are you mocking me or something ? Do you think you are superior or something ?Some people can't take a joke...I liked it though
LOL Thanks well at lest someone get it that it was a joke , and here i thought that it was an obvious one
Yes Don that was a joke I wasn't serious , but hey at least i made someone laugh and that's bonus
Well that's how I interpreted it.Cookie monster;
Is a sure sign that someone is trying to be sarcastic or witty. ( while highlighting something of importance.)
I've rarely seen it used for anything else other then mocking.
No the theme of Shippuden is to get Sasuke back. To save him from whatever dark corner he is.
People judge authors it's true but the way they are judging him is wrong. You are applying real world perspective to a world which has a different perspective on life.
Those mass murderers that you keep talking about don't exist the way you understand them in the Narutoverse. Obito started hating everything because of Rin's death. From Rin's death all the way to Naruto's fight he was bad. After he was changed by Naruto Obito isn't acting like a mass murderer again. The difference is that in the real world even if Obito stopped killing he would still be labeled a mass murderer. But for him killing isn't some form of addiction. In Kishi's world there are very few who are like this. And the way they are portrayed is still associated with the idea of friendship. Jugo's mass murderer urges are kept in check first by Kimimaro and afterwards Sasuke. Ok you can argue that Sasuke and Jugo aren't friends but in Jugo's perceptive they are.
Thing is if one wants to judge an author he needs to take into account more elements of the story not judge everything based on one set of values. A high school colleague of mine used to do this judging literature characters based on psychology. Thing is characters don't act the way their psychology teaches them but based on what the author wants.
Edited by Otaru, 18 June 2014 - 09:44 AM.
The One True Demi-Goddess of Misfortune
Posted 18 June 2014 - 03:48 PM
Itachi was nothing like "insane" or "dumb".
It's not because he has made mistakes that he's "dumb".
He was really wise, and caring for his little brother. He sacrificed himself in order to save Sasuke.
He even sacrificed his own clan to stop the rebellion against Konoha.
IMO this is extremely courageous and it fits with the ninja theme of this manga.
I never said that. I said it's atoning things.
Who has really desire to kill ? Obito was blinded, he never really thought about it. He began to think when Naruto talked to him.
It's the same with Obito. Madara was his "voice in his head". He was weak, Madara took advantage of it. He manipulated him. He used his suffering to use him as a tool.
Obito and Sasuke care about the life of the dear ones they lost. It's blinding them. Rin... it's not about "wanting" her. He just couldn't accept what happened, he wanted to create a world were she could be alive.
Just imagine yourself in Sasuke's feet. Just once. Could you take his past and do nothing about it ? They are ninjas. Of course Sasuke would want revenge. All of his family were killed by his brother. Then he learnt his brother forced himself to do so...
No. I didn't. You interpreted it that way.
Oh yes he wants to protect Konoha. It's clearly stated in the manga. He changed his mind after he talked with the Hokages.
If you can't get that, then you might not get other important things...
His way of doing it may not please you, but it's the truth.
Kishimoto is making him another Danzo that will oppose Sarutobi/Naruto.
Yes it's true. But this is not the only reason. Again, his way may don't please you, but he really want to protect Konoha because his brother Itachi cared for Konoha.
Well, think as you want about me, I don't care.
At all.
Sasuke is a fictional character. I will not hate him, even if I don't like his character.
And I'm capable of understanding.
This is what Kishimoto is writing.
You should read again.
You are unable to explain why the hell Naruto teased Sasuke. Could I interpreted it right ? lol. There is no other reason that could explain Naruto's teasing. Naruto is teasing Sasuke because he knows that 'Sasuke' is still there.
What do you mean by "some people" when you know you are talking about me ? Are you mocking me or something ? Do you think you are superior or something ?
Uh if you cared to notice Don would be included in "Some people" as well, since he didn't get the joke. No what I think is that you're jumping to conclusions. And if you cared to notice it was confirmed by the writer to be a JOKE. Just like I said it was.
Cookie monster; Mocking, teasing, highlighting--its an "oh would you look at that." sort of thing.
If you can't admit that Itachi thinking he could manipulate everything and everyone on his own and come out on the right side of things was infact STUPID there isn't much hope for this conversation. People are not chess pieces, they are unpredictable. He thought otherwise and a lot of crap turned south because of that.
Also, yes he had to be crazy to kill that many people and continue living. He has to be somewhat crazy to do what he did. You've missed the entire point of what I said about Itachi, read it again.
YEa, because forcing people to do what you want and KILLING them when they don't is "protecting" thats SUCH a good thing Sasuke wants to do. You want to talk about me needing to read things again? i suggest you do the same because you're yet again trying to cast Sasuke in some soft white light and it doesn't mesh up with his BS.
Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 18 June 2014 - 04:23 PM.
Pls shame me for procrastinating. 
絶対 負けない
Posted 18 June 2014 - 04:41 PM
If you can't admit that Itachi thinking he could manipulate everything and everyone on his own and come out on the right side of things was infact STUPID there isn't much hope for this conversation. People are not chess pieces, they are unpredictable. He thought otherwise and a lot of crap turned south because of that.
He made a mistake, but it doesn't make him an idiot like you said. You're judging too fast.
Also, yes he had to be crazy to kill that many people and continue living. He has to be somewhat crazy to do what he did. You've missed the entire point of what I said about Itachi, read it again.
No it's a ninja world. Killing is a daily thing for them. Itachi has been courageous, yet he made a mistake, and he regretted what he has done.
YEa, because forcing people to do what you want and KILLING them when they don't is "protecting" thats SUCH a good thing Sasuke wants to do. You want to talk about me needing to read things again? i suggest you do the same because you're yet again trying to cast Sasuke in some soft white light and it doesn't mesh up with his BS.
Who did Sasuke kill in Konoha ? He just came back, and it's a full war. Up until now, he cooperated. With his own wrong way, it's true, but he is cooperating and protecting Konoha and the world by fighting alongside Naruto.
I am not casting Sasuke in a softer light as Kishimoto is casting him. LOL
You just don't understand Kishimoto's point.
Edited by Otaru, 18 June 2014 - 04:43 PM.
The One True Demi-Goddess of Misfortune
Posted 18 June 2014 - 05:05 PM
He made a mistake, but it doesn't make him an idiot like you said. You're judging too fast.
No it's a ninja world. Killing is a daily thing for them. Itachi has been courageous, yet he made a mistake, and he regretted what he has done.
Who did Sasuke kill in Konoha ? He just came back, and it's a full war. Up until now, he cooperated. With his own wrong way, it's true, but he is cooperating and protecting Konoha and the world by fighting alongside Naruto.
I am not casting Sasuke in a softer light as Kishimoto is casting him. LOL
You just don't understand Kishimoto's point.
Thinking that people will do what you expect them to do is stupid. Itachi was stupid for expecting people to react according to his designs. Ergo, he was being stupid. Him being stupid caused Sasuke to go crazy, to defect, to do a kitten ton of other things he wouldn't have done If Itachi hadn't been stupid. There is nothing "too fast" in my judging when ITACHI admits to screwing up, he knows it, we know it.
For a genius he was being an idiot. Thats all there is.
Where did I say he wasn't courageous? or that I condemned him for doing it? The answer is I didn't, because I don't so its completely unnecessary for you to act like I'm tearing down his character.
Again, you seem to think "Regretting" makes the boo-boo's go away; It doesn't.
I don't CARE about Kishimoto's point because ITS A BAD POINT. Its bad. Do I have to be any clearer about that? Its my opinion, its the opinion of tons of other people. You are free to like it, but don't get all bent out of shape because I don't.
Who he killed doesn't matter the fact that he VOWED to kill them does. The fact that he's VOWED to kill anyone who stands in his way matters, the fact that he's tried to kill what--the entire main cast matters.
He hasn't changed. That's what matters. Weren't you the one who said intent matters? Well his intent is to save the world, which requires him to work with Naruto ALL for the purpose of being able to fulfill his goal of taking the Shinobi system over.
Taking the system over requires that he get rid of everyone in his way; I.E NARUTO and everyone else because they sure as hell aren't going to let him be Hokage. Thats what matters at this point.
Pls shame me for procrastinating.
Elite Jounin
Posted 19 June 2014 - 08:26 PM
Even Itachi had to be a LITTLE crazy to do what he did. Its been said that the line between genius and insanity is a thin one, and maybe he had a toe over that line. As much as I like Itachi even I have to admit that for as smart as he was, he was also awfully dumb. He thought that people were like chess pieces that he could move around, that he could guess what they would do and be right.
He was sadly very wrong.
That question reminds me of my moral and ethics class back in college...Like "If a person can't remember commiting a crime are they still guilty for it?" The answer to that is intent. You have to have intent and desire.
If Sakura was forcefully taken over, Its obviously the thing that took over her body. Unless she WILLINGLY let it into her and allowed it to commit those acts its not her fault, she has no control.
The same could be said for Sasuke, what if Orochimaru got his body? what if he did horrible horrible things with it? Its only Sasuke's fault if he allowed it to happen and didn't fight it.
Oh true but I will give him points in stopping the rest of his clan from being all nuts he made a big mistake with Sasuke that is all I can say but then again he was human, but many can view him as how they like.
oh true like I said if I was dying from a painful illness once to my family I would want to die then suffer and its the same I hear in the news when a person wants to die rather than suffer, just does not happen that much.
well with that there could be so many like one she is forced and as you said it wouldn't be her fault, but willingly depends if her friends are held captive and they say she should let it in to save her friends lives, after all Sakura is not power hungry like Sasuke is, it just depends on the situation that is going on.
True but that is Sasuke all he wanted was power
絶対 負けない
Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:22 AM
Thinking that people will do what you expect them to do is stupid. Itachi was stupid for expecting people to react according to his designs. Ergo, he was being stupid. Him being stupid caused Sasuke to go crazy, to defect, to do a kitten ton of other things he wouldn't have done If Itachi hadn't been stupid. There is nothing "too fast" in my judging when ITACHI admits to screwing up, he knows it, we know it.
For a genius he was being an idiot. Thats all there is.
Where did I say he wasn't courageous? or that I condemned him for doing it? The answer is I didn't, because I don't so its completely unnecessary for you to act like I'm tearing down his character.
Again, you seem to think "Regretting" makes the boo-boo's go away; It doesn't.
I don't CARE about Kishimoto's point because ITS A BAD POINT. Its bad. Do I have to be any clearer about that? Its my opinion, its the opinion of tons of other people. You are free to like it, but don't get all bent out of shape because I don't.
Who he killed doesn't matter the fact that he VOWED to kill them does. The fact that he's VOWED to kill anyone who stands in his way matters, the fact that he's tried to kill what--the entire main cast matters.
He hasn't changed. That's what matters. Weren't you the one who said intent matters? Well his intent is to save the world, which requires him to work with Naruto ALL for the purpose of being able to fulfill his goal of taking the Shinobi system over.
Taking the system over requires that he get rid of everyone in his way; I.E NARUTO and everyone else because they sure as hell aren't going to let him be Hokage. Thats what matters at this point.
If Itachi didn't do it, the Uchiha clan would have make a putch in Konoha.
Well, again, we disagree because of our vision of the author's work.
You think it's bad because you only see it through your personal prism.
I think it's good because I see it through Kishimoto's prism.
I think it's better to see through the author's eyes to understand better a story.
Maybe it's because I'm writing too... IDK
We will never come to an understanding because of that. I quit. LOL
Edited by Otaru, 20 June 2014 - 01:23 AM.
Commander
Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:25 PM
If Itachi didn't do it, the Uchiha clan would have make a putch in Konoha.
Well, again, we disagree because of our vision of the author's work.
You think it's bad because you only see it through your personal prism.
I think it's good because I see it through Kishimoto's prism.
I think it's better to see through the author's eyes to understand better a story.
Maybe it's because I'm writing too... IDK
We will never come to an understanding because of that. I quit. LOL
Well, I'm also a writer and while I can understand Kishimoto's intentions, I think his method of showing it is terrible. I don't think it's a matter of Tsuki Hoshino not being able to see outside her personal ideals. Not saying you can't or shouldn't like it, but those don't aren't incapable of understanding the author's message and intent.
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