31569 replies to this topic

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Here is something I just find funny now.. I've been rewatching Gurren Lagann and remember that one scene that I'm not gonna spoil.. You know with Simon remember how long it took him to get over that moment? Almost a while  And in Naruto we have in almost similar situation with Neji's death only he got over it like that you know almost like it really didn't matter.   Not to mention that Naruto and Neji didn't really have any big interactions after Part 1 aside from 614. So the impact kinda fell flat.   With Simon you actually felt the moments, and what was it that finally snapped him out of it:

 

 

 

 

 

That's right Nia did, and it was done brilliantly because he was too busy trying to be somebody he wasn't, and  her speech to Simon about being himself was what made him realize that. Not to mention that in less than 2 episodes (when she first appears and the following episode she deals with one of the generals) has more of a character arc and development then Hinata ever did throughout the entire series of Naruto. Plus as far as I can remember that's only the beginning of the amount of stuff Nia goes through as a character and her relationship with Simon. There's a lot more stuff they go through as the series goes on in comparison to what the canon pairings in Naruto ever dream of.  

And that falls right in line with Kishimoto outright admitting that Neji's death was simply a "cupid" moment for NH and that the death itself was pretty much meaningless where it actually should have mattered.

 

Plus, we have Naruto and Sasuke mentoring each others' children instead of properly raising their own.  That does not send a good message.   Also, the "Scary Mom" Hinata is more SP lip service/filler only because she sure didn't go out of her way to reprimand her son after he tossed her cake on the floor and acted like a belligerent, unrepentant brat during that scene in the movie.  And telling your twelve year old son to protect his father/her husband when that is supposed to be your role?  What person does that? 

 

Sorry, but I have a hard time accepting that Hinata could be a more assertive disciplinarian behind closed doors given what we know about her personality and that she has shown nothing in her scant appearances in Boruto to bolster that claim.

 

As for Naruto's duties as Hokage vs his duty as a husband and father, he would never be an opportunistic lazy ass that would ditch his duties when he had the first chance, but he also wouldn't neglect his family to the point he has in Boruto had he married Sakura. In Boruto, he doesn't make actual efforts in balancing out work and domestic activites, and doesn't really have an interest in doing so. Whereas Sakura's influence would have her helping Naruto keep himself balanced in his responsibilities, especially since she would be more active as a wife and mother compared to Hinata.  

It feels more like SP is trying to swap Sakura and Hinata's actual character personalities and history bit by bit, hoping nobody will notice.

Saying Sakura is "prone to fainting" in Gaiden when everyone knows that's BS.

Giving Hinata the same type of past of being bullied for a body part in The Last when there is no logic to it.

Now making Hinata "scary"?

[Nate River]

 

In the case of Naruto, Bleach and One Piece, the injuries the Tsundere inflicts always vanish in the very next scene, so I see it as little more than gag humor IMHO. Granted, now that I think about it, there was that one time where Yamato said that Jiraiya nearly died as a result of trying to peak at Tsunade in the bathouse.

 

 

 

If the work-a-holic angle were presented from the standpoint of something that's actually believable, I'd probably have a different opinion on the issue. For example, why not have it to where Naruto has become like Batman in the sense that he is not overworked, but completely obsessed with his work? Make it to where he's actively using 100,000 shadowclones to do missions and protect Konoha. Make it to where he's actively trying to make shinobi obsolete by trying to do all of the work himself. That, I could see as being the ingredients for a legitimate conflict with his family. But mere paper work? Meager paper being the reason he doesn't have enough time to show up to his daughter's birthday party? Given all that we know about the character's abilities, that's goes well past my suspension of disbelief. This is a guy who, at the mere age of 15, processed and absorbed years of information in mere hours. And that was without the kyuubi's chakra. And so in that light, I could see Sakura walking up to his office, spelling out the obvious solution and asking him wtf he's doing.

 

 

 

This. This x 1000!  They didn't even teach me how to do an arraignment! I ended up hearing someone do it and jotting down the right words on a legal pad minutes before the judge reached my case on the docket before having to recite it myself. There is SO MUCH to learn beyond what you can find in statutes, cases (many of which you won't be able to read or know about without having an overly expensive subscription to westlaw or lexis nexis) or even handbooks that hanging up your own shingle immediately after law school is almost suicide. Even basic yet crucial skills like negotiating with the DA are nowhere to be found in law school (which they happily exploit each time they encounter the latest crop of newly admitted solo attorneys). And I wasn't able to make into the top tier upon graduation, but fortunately work alongside a family friend who has been practicing for 34 years. How it should work is that you do the standard Crim Law, Torts, Contracts, Real Property and Civil Procedure during your first semester, do Evidence Constitutional Law, Legal Research and Legal writing in the second semester and then spend the remaining two years doing nothing but internships/externships the school forcibly enrolls you in. And given how many court appointed cases get handed out in criminal court every day, I refuse to believe any school out there would have difficulty in insuring that their students had relevant and applicable hands on experience prior to graduating.

 

Ah westlaw/lexis. A near monopoly, but almost all methods of case research are inferior to them, There are free sites, but they suck in comparison. I've been the swiss-army knife for my office (traffic court, juvenile prosecution, adult misdemeanor, and now I am the post-conviction guy). Pretty much all the stuff nobody wants to do; especially appeals and juvenile. If I ever go into private practice I got a pretty good niche. Most defense attorney's won't touch those things. I don't know why. 

 

I was fortunate to be able to a summer clinical through the school. It was criminal defense, but its decided by chance and there are very few spots. I actually tried my first case as a third year student. That clinic and my legal writing class were most useful because it was practical work I still use. But my school doesn't not have enough of that. Not even close, Mock trial and Moot Court....yeah, not the same (especially mock trial, which is highly scripted where as real trial can turn into a huge mess depending on what witness say and what your judge lets in).

 

 

 

If the work-a-holic angle were presented from the standpoint of something that's actually believable, I'd probably have a different opinion on the issue. For example, why not have it to where Naruto has become like Batman in the sense that he is not overworked, but completely obsessed with his work? Make it to where he's actively using 100,000 shadowclones to do missions and protect Konoha. Make it to where he's actively trying to make shinobi obsolete by trying to do all of the work himself. That, I could see as being the ingredients for a legitimate conflict with his family. But mere paper work? Meager paper being the reason he doesn't have enough time to show up to his daughter's birthday party? Given all that we know about the character's abilities, that's goes well past my suspension of disbelief. This is a guy who, at the mere age of 15, processed and absorbed years of information in mere hours. And that was without the kyuubi's chakra. And so in that light, I could see Sakura walking up to his office, spelling out the obvious solution and asking him wtf he's doing.

 

I feel they either needed to give it there all in development (if they felt they really needed this subplot) or not do it at all. But, as I said, it takes certain stuff for granted without showing the "why." And as people have asked, why not send the shadow clone to do paperwork (as everyone would expect) and attend the party? That's a very Naruto thing to do. Was what he was doing that important that he couldn't? It could have been, but we don't know because the story doesn't say. The real reason was probably just to fuel the plot and meet Sasuke, but for me its the difference between a good believable scene and a bad one. Naruto ends up looking like an OOC ass because they don't bother to explain what he is working on.

[Bail o' Lies]

The POV shift is extremely difficult for the people that have been following the series for a long time. It had 15 years and now Naruto is nothing but a plot device.

I haven't seen a lot of people sympathizing with Burrito so I guess their plan didn't work. He comes of as spoiled and aggressive and from his own POV he's portrayed negatively as a character. There's no quality that makes him easy to root for.

The problem is that people have been following and sympathizing with Naruto for almost 18 years now (the anime only ended recently). But now Boruto wants us to think Naruto is now the worst father that has ever existed, and use that as a way for us to like Bolt. The problem is that put them in competition with each-other to see which one people agree with; "the Father that was well loved for almost 15 years or his whiny brat of a son that we have suffered through for almost three years at this point?" So most people are just going to see Naruto as caring father but is busy and overworked, while they see Bolt as a spoiled whiny brat. Not help by the anime staff making sure Naruto doesn't come off as apathetic/neglectful -since that means he apathetic/neglecting the pairing they worked so hard to make happen- so Bolt comes off as a even more spoiled brat. Also the fact that we have already seen the resolution to this story makes it even more of a chore to sit through.

 

But that is also countered by the fact that there is an even worst father then Naruto in this story; Sasuke. Who Bolt worships because he's so cool, despite the fact that he literally never visited his family for over ten years. That if Naruto even thought of doing it Bolt would never stop whining about it, but if it's Sasuke then its OK. The thing is that the gaiden was so incredibly good at making people like Salad, which included making her interact heavily with Naruto, us not seeing her whine about her daddy issue every time she onscreen, and the fact that it was resolved in one story and not drawn out or redone over and over again like it is with Bolt. So all this does is make people like Salad more then bolt and wish she was the main character, even people that hate Boruto.

 

It's also not help by the fact that Bolt doesn't have an interesting goal or story after the chunin exam. At the start of the movie he has his daddy issues, and he wants to become Sasuke's disciple, by the end he has made up with his father and is Sasuke's disciple. At the end of the movie he and Sasuke could have just gone off on a journey and they story could end right there. That's why they had to give him a his own "Sasuke" with Nail, cause they don't have a plot for Bolt otherwise.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 05 September 2017 - 11:04 AM.

[Riverkid]

And that falls right in line with Kishimoto outright admitting that Neji's death was simply a "cupid" moment for NH and that the death itself was pretty much meaningless where it actually should have mattered.

I already said multiple times that the death-scene of Neji was plain stupid from the beginning.

1. preparing/building-up the death-scene

after being useless most of the time, like 95% of all characters, dealing with some fodders (aka useless zetsus).. he suddenly gets his big entrance for the chapter, fighting alongside Naruto and showing off some of his skills. It was obvious thats something was going to happen with him. For what reason else would Kishimoto highlight a Character alongside Naruto who isn't a tier-1 Guy?

2. throwing the stone

exhaust Naruto after throwing what ? 2-3 Rasen-shurikens ? Why even wasting Chakra against an enemy-Jutsu which can be spammed all the time, instead of dodging them? In other situations Naruto could throw 100 of rasen-shurikens without being near of exhaustion, but it has to be different in THIS chapter

Also using an other hyuga (i think it was hinatas dad), pointing out that 'no' jutsu can save them now... wow... thanks for pointing out that there is only ONE WAY to protect Naruto. 

3. The death

Here we go, the death of Neji. All settled in just 1 chapter. Its like Kishimoto waking up in the morning with the decision: "hmm.. i think will let Neji be killed in this week-chapter".

some will say it was "needed" for the arc, for the act, for the scene. Its just so bad written that it doesn't even matters. 

Btw, its funny how Naruto goes full kyubi-mode after his death, like he just staged his exhaustion for Neji. 
 

[Riverkid]

 

1: Pretty much, that is build up.

 

2: This lines up with the Pain Stuff, he couldn't just throw hundreds, he has limits. Hiashi's line is more of a hammer that due to the point blank range, there was no way either of their techniques would be fast enough. You already see Hinata moving in place because she knows this, but Hiashi gives the tell to accompany the show.

 

3: First, the impact of the death moves into multiple chapters, and is just not "settled" in 614. Kyuubi-mode is fueled by Kurama, not Naruto, and Kurama has been preparing. How else is it badly written? Everything so far looks fine by writing standards. No continuity issues, feeding the need of narrative flow's demand for death, setting him up to nearly fall in despair and be snapped out of it, amp up the stakes and remove the expectation that all K11 people are invulnerable. Help better foreshadow 700. Demonstrate the utter deadliness of the Ten Tails. One chapter does a lot. I mean, you are fine to your opinion, but I'm having trouble understanding it. 

1. Pretty much, that is build up.   I criticize the predictability of that 'already said' build-up, and you have nothing else to say other than "that is build up" ? when does your casting start for the next sherlock movie ?

2. That doesn't line up with your "3.". If kurama was 'preparing' and Naruto has 'limits' i dont see a reason for him to burst his chakra out before Kurama finished preparing enough Chakra. Because of that he just put himself in a dangerous and reckless position. Just because he wasted his chakra against a spammable-jutsu (smart). Naruto should know when his chakra is on a dangerous-low level, so why risk it for someting unneccesary instead of dodging ? Hinata also had time to just shove naruto away (like kakashi did with sakura), and yes.. there was enough time to shove him out of the pin-pointed attack. Kishimoto forced the exhaustion, and hinata to just stand infront of him.. if both would have used some of their braincells.. well... sadly everything was written bei the smart man kishimoto himself.

3.  His death was settled in 1 Chapter. You don't have to count his last words in the next chapter, because those didn't settled his death.. but ye, i know how much you like throwing in some nonsense in the debate. "

"Kurama has been preparing" so can you show me the pagenumber where Kurama was preparing his chakra? Because something like that would be key to show during a battle. And if he really prepared his Chakra, then it doesn't line up with your "2.".

----------------------------

"Everything so far looks fine by writing standards" haha... i mean...with your tunnelvisioned analysis everything looks fine by your "called" writing-knowledge. 

you should ask for a changename to be honest "tunnelvisioned analyzer" oh no.. "hypocritical analyzer" fits way more.

[BlackShirtGuy]

Give it up, Neiji's death was obviously just there for NH, the entire scenario doesn't make an inch of sense otherwise...
Kishi himself said so, Neji died as cupid, and that is one statement I'm sure as hell he is not lyiing about, he is the kind of piece of kitten of author and person to do something like that just because people told them to and/or preffered money over his own work and integrity.
And no, I don't think I'm being disrespectful towards him at all, anyone who uses his own work to "send a message" to their children about how they have to suck it up that he doesn't have time for them, it is NOT a good person or author in my or pretty much anyone book.
Futhermore, Neji was in the background since the very first arc of shippuden, and now suddenly, he's brought into the spotlight at several parts of the war-arc just for him to die, come ooooon, he is not even a little bit sublte with this xD , not even mentioning he was the only "important" death from the whole arc, that just screams CONVINIENCE.

[Riverkid]

 

1: Well yes. You're mocking it, but that's what build up is. Kishimoto shifts attention to the Hyuuga's, they display their skill, Naruto is wowed, sets up a nice later compliment moment that gets reflected in the death scene itself. I.E., it's building towards the moment of sacrifice. Would you rather it come out of nowhere? I would argue that would have made it less effective. Further, that Hinata is also in the picture doesn't make it entirely predictable, we're even shown her body pin front first, making Neji's death a little more suprising. 

 

2: He is in a dangerous situation, people are getting hurt or killed. The Rashen Shurikens were needed. Saving Chakra would not be saving lives. Pushing out of the way is silly, because you are still sacrificing yourself, and you are not taking in account in the moment thinking. You don't have all day to make your chess move, but seconds. Even if she did push him, it would not have made shielding less effective, and she'd be sacrificing herself regardless. 

 

What are you suggesting writing wise here anyway, moving away from the details? Narrative Flow demands this happen. Your input is literally to take away a much needed death. 

 

3: If by settled, he died in one chapter, yes? Why would you sprawl him bleeding to death for multiple chapters? But if you are talking about impact, this is objectively false. 615 tackles much of the aftermath, 699 you see Neji's grave. Your argument doesn't make sense. Kurama was preparing his own chakra, which he -gives- to Naruto when he is ready at the conclusion of 615. He was not ready during 614. Naruto relied on his own Chakra, in a situation where people were dying, to save them. 

 

Context gives much light to a lot of your complaints, as you see.

 

You are getting a little mean with your last words, I've done my best to bite back my mockery lately in turn to your words, but whatever, I'm not going to sink to this and retort with the same behavior. 

1. "but that's what build up is"  how often do i have to repeat myself ?  we already know what a build-up is, and that his death was building up since the beginning of the chapter. Why do you keep repeating it like its a needed fact ? Im "mocking" it because it was bad written, and why? because one reason was the predictability, and the pity effort putting in that build-up. 

When i criticize the build up, and explain why the build up was kitten, you can't just come around the corner saying "well, but its a build-up". What are u trying to tell me with that? that because of "having" a build-up it looks automatically fine from a writing perspective? for you everything looks automatically fine just by excisting in the first place.. we should remove "critics" all over the world just for you perspective.

2. Narrative flow doesn't show Kurama preparing chakra for him, and yet you bring it up as an argumentation for you. "Your input is literally to take away a much needed death" take away a much needed death? how about good writing ? thats what i critize, not the death itself. But you aren't able to talk about "good" writing, so lets not put ourself further in that matter.

3. i clearly said "his death was settled in 1 chapter" and you still feel the need to write that the impact of his death was over multiple chapters-. like it acutally matters. I talked about the writing in that chapter where neji died, and not what the aftermath of the chapter is.
 

 

90% of your words are just repeating nonsense, or saying stuff that doesn't belong to the debate. The only thing which made sense was saying that Naruto used all his chakra to save as many lifes he can, and that hinata just couldn't decide for the right thing.. everything else shouldn't be written in the first place.

[Riverkid]

 

 

Kishimoto's Cupid comment is a sardonic joke. Even if we take it seriously it's not the sole impact of Neji's actions, and I've illustrated that already. And him preferring money is just conspiracy theory making, really. 

 

Further, at the time? I did not read anyone who predicted Neji's death in the fandom. I find the claim that this was predictable unfounded. We can go read the reactions in the 614 thread on this forum alone. Maybe you predicted it though, so I won't touch on that further, but I find it an odd argument at best.

 

1: I llustrated why it wasn't "Pity Effort", and touched predictablility in the above paragraphs, I.E., I find it unfounded, considering much of the fandom did not predict it, but you can -see- the build up, making it work. 

 

2: How would you rewrite this? I ask because I am interested in what you -see- as good writing. And you actually see Kurama focusing on building up Chakra in a panel in 615, and I'm pretty sure it's mentioned earlier as well by him. 

 

3: The impact does matter. You need to explain what you mean by "settled". The impact stretches past this, and you can't just ignore that. The impact is part of the quality, and why it is frankly, "great writing". 

1. "you can see the build up, making it work" a person is able to see bad build-ups, and good ones.. 

2. The situation around chapter 614 is just weird to begin with.

Naruto is not in his kyubi-form, which makes him "weak" compared to Madara and Obito. Thats why Madara and Obito are just sitting on the Jubi watching everyone die because there isn't a threat without Naruto being in his Kyubi-form. What Naruto should do is to "hide" or rest in the backline until his strength is gathered back. That was the plan of Neji in the first place "protect naruto until his strength comes back". Naruto is the main-focus of Madara and Obito, so the most dangerous position is always around Naruto since he is the main target. Why does Naruto stays at the front? making it super dangerous for everyone around him, because he is the main target.. so the enemies will use their jutsus to the position where Naruto is. And he can't do anything at the front anyways, because the kyubi-form isn't aviable.

So having Naruto at the front is just stupid, despite everyone tries to gather time until Naruto can use his kyubi-form. He just makes the strategy extremly difficult by staying at the front to put the ninjas who tries to gather time for him in a more dangerous position. Because of that, they are forced to stay around Naruto which leads up to the stupid death scene of Neji. 

Even this Stone-guy, gathering so much time to trap the jubi, instead of just building a stupid wall to block these spears.. protecting own ninjas.

But lets not talk more about the logical clusterf*ck in the war-arc.

If i would re-write the war-arc, then i would made the side-characters more usefull, with more important roles during that war. So when a death occurs, it acutally really feels like a loss in the battlefield, and not just a loss of a friend. Which means that Neji should not just show-off in 1 single chapter before he dies. If every sidecharacter were given equal important screentime, then it would make it less predictable, which just makes the death more shoking and dramatic at the end. 

3. ye, but not if you focus on this chapters-writing.







 

[Bail o' Lies]

Hey Analyzer answer this question; "Why are Shueisha officially saying that they want Black Clover to be the next Naruto? When they currently have an anime out right now about the son of Naruto?"

 

https://twitter.com/...134234209316864

[ree]

Can someone tell me what's black cover mean?

[Phantom_999]

Can someone tell me what's black cover mean?

 

"Black Clover" actually. And it is a manga that was published in Weekly shonen Jump since 2015.

[Moon_Girl]

When no one buys Kishi's comment about Sakura not being the heroine. 

 

[T XD]

She's officially the heroine of the series since the beginning no matter what one would argue against her. It would be like saying the manga's name isn't ' Naruto '.

[VanitasDS76491]

She's officially the heroine of the series since the beginning no matter what one would argue against her. It would be like saying the manga's name isn't ' Naruto '.

Actually it may have naruto's name on it but it's not his story but sasuke's and maybe hinata for an 1hr50 min.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

If the Disney Princesses met Hinata, what would they say to her?

[Kagomaru]

If the Disney Princesses met Hinata, what would they say to her?

Given that a decent majority of them are outspoken and independent women who want more out of life than just getting the guy?  Not much.

[Bail o' Lies]

If the Disney Princesses met Hinata, what would they say to her?

Well seeing that all of them have that true love boyfriend bit they would be sympathetic to her having feeling for a boy, then they would be bewildered by the fact that she barely interacted with him for over fifteen years, and then as the learn more and more about the situation (Naruto's childhood, Sakura, Sasuke, and so on) would leave them completely flummox.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 15 September 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[Dalton.T.R]

If the Disney Princesses met Hinata, what would they say to her?

I'm coming off as a major Sakura fanboy lately, but I doubt it'd be much. They'd probably rather spend their time with Sakura or Ino rather than anyone else.

[Catra]

speaking of disney i always liked comparing lion king to naruto back then when i was unhealthily obsessed with naruto.

 

naruto = simba

sakura= nala

minato/jiraiya = mufasa

kushina/tsunade = sarabi

ebisu = zazu

pein or orochimaru = scar

the sound genin or deidara, hidan and tobi = shenzi, banzi and ed

hiruzen/enma = rafiki

shikamaru = timon

choji = pumba

 

hell part of the pain arc is practically the third act of lion king almost. with the frog place being the jungle simba ran away to, he even ate grubs there XD

Edited by Catra, 15 September 2017 - 06:53 PM.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

I'm coming off as a major Sakura fanboy lately, but I doubt it'd be much. They'd probably rather spend their time with Sakura or Ino rather than anyone else.

I can see them inviting Sakura, but Hinata came in thinking she had an invitation. They notice her then Rapunzel slowly closes the door.