Genin
Posted 07 June 2015 - 05:16 PM
hmmm, it does seem weird for Kishi to invent Uchiha out of the blue when he could just use the leftover Uzumaki-
THAT would garner attention.
A lot of people like Naruto more than Sasuke.
Yeah, Kishi won't explore the Uzu, but it's useful for fanfiction
Edited by Toby, 07 June 2015 - 05:17 PM.
Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 07 June 2015 - 09:29 PM
Good author doesn't need to relied on that.
Well, not unless the Uzumaki clan tries to destroy the world.
And that just made me remember something else I was compiling...
Academy Student
Posted 08 June 2015 - 12:44 PM
1-Why would Kishimoto lie about something like that? That was the author's own interpretation of Sasuke's character someone who is "pure" not in the normal sense of the word but relating to how blunt and honest he is
In the story for example when he thought back in Konoha we've always seen Naruto at the forefront a lot of times Sasuke always said Naruto was the only thing holding him back, not Sakura, Kakashi, the rookie 9, only Naruto
Therefore it's easy to see that the only person from konoha he had an active bond (not a broken one) with, was Naruto
2-"Pure soul"...I guess you got the wrong meaning...Sasuke is only "pure" regarding to how honest and blunt he is. And once again in the manga there is no indication he liked Sakura as something above of a comrade, zero, indication, and I'm talking about part 1 because in part 2 it's obvious he doesn't even consider her a comrade or a friend anymore
Having empathy for a person doesn't necessarily means you like them in a romantic light
3-Sakura's love has no reason and sense even in the eastern mind, we had a friend here who was from japan and he hate everything SS standed for, it's a horrible and sick relationship no matter how you slice it.
Also Sasuke didn't like Sakura romantically, futhermore his bond with her in part 1 was that of comradeship// maybe even friendship if you want to force it, it's clear that he managed to cut it easily his appereances in part 2 are enough of a proof, he had no qualms on trying to kill her multiple times, Sasuke bond with Naruto however was deeper, so it was very hard to cut through, Sasuke thought he had cut htis bond off too after the fight at the valley of the end but Naruto showed him wrong during the Kage summit arc.
It's no use trying to compare Sasuke's bond with Naruto with his bond with Sakura, one is far more shallow, the other one is deeper and it's part of the main theme of the story. If there is something that they have in common though is that both bonds were butchered by the author in one form or another.,
4- I've seen many SS shippers using this wave scene to somehow try to show that Sasuke has some feelings for Sakura, which frankly makes no sense, people only see this if they observe the scene with pairing glasses, the thing that happened is that Sasuke is far too proud to ask for help but he saw that Naruto got better after Sakura's observations, so he asked for them, he was too simply embaressed to be asking it in first place
The scene in the Gaara aftermath too, I don't really think he is somehow envious of Sakura's new found admiration for Naruto, there is now way how, I mean Sakura at the time was still a devoted Sasuke fan girl who spent her free time not training but cutting apples and tomatoes for him (lol) , in that scene he is envious of Naruto's growth, as it was stated in the story by Kakashi...
5-Sorry, there is no " deeper meaning" ...thank you is just thank you...
Unless you are trying to imply that somehow Might Guy's father ia somehow in love with the people that made fun of him...antd of course all the other times that Naruto's characters have said thank you to some other charactetrs...
lolSasuke was simply thanking Sakura for caring for him all this time, that scene was mainly there to show him cutting off his bond with her IMO
6- And?
Naruto got famous world wide, and towards end it was heavily failing in japan...in fact there are a lot of htings that show that Kishi( and SP) tried to pander to western fanbase somehow with the last...
I guess you didn't know ( or forgot) that we actually had a japanese here with us for a time, he spends a lot less time here than what he used to but yeah most of us got an insight on how the japanese people to a degree ...and surprise they hated the ending ( and these last arcs- if the manga volumes number of sales is anything to go by ) too
Though I really didn't know what you tried to porve with this statement
As for grasping at straws, well it's not a matter of being unbiased or no, it's a matter of grasping at minor things and making it out as a big deal, it's somehting that NH and SS ( pairing fans in general though) fans do all the time
Some of your arguments look a little alike to some of these pairing fans who constantly grasp at such straws
Going by the story itself there is no indication that Sasuke liked/cared for Sakura romantically in part 1 and even that his bond with her remained the same as it was in part 1 during part 2
In fact we in part 2 Sasuke literally didn't thought of Sakura outside of some team 7 things, he only indiviually thought of Naruto
So yeah, concluding saying Sakura liked Sakura romantically is grasping at straws, since the story didn't showed this at all. If this was teh impression Kishimoto wanted to pass to us ( tahat SAsuke liked Sakura all along) he did one hell of a poor job
1- Why would you assume Masashi was lying? It could simply be a matter of interpretation. He had one version in mind while you have another.
2- Which, again, Sasuke being empathic for anyone involves a lot of highly charged emotions. It's pretty much his entire driving force for much of the series. However, for Sasuke to care about Sakura's feelings out of a sense of empathy for her pain goes counter to his "pure soul" thing without involving some brand of actual like, in his case. Naruto could empathize with people he doesn't like at the time, but Sasuke isn't that kind of person. If he likes you, he's not going to be all flowers and candy. In fact, in a sense, he's less likely to express it outside of little things, much like Squall from FFVIII, as much as I hate to bring that one up. So, yeah, him building Sakura up like that is a huge development, no matter how you ascribe it.
3- Your friend doesn't speak for the entirety of the Japanese community, though, only himself. And to further your point about trying to kill Sakura on multiple occasions, he did the same thing to Naruto, and that's supposed to be the guy he thinks of as a brother! Hell, the one moment he saw Naruto in the forest while looking for Itachi, he insta-shanked him on sight.
Sakura, though, the times he has tried to kill her, there has been some moment of pause when, rationally and reasonably, he shouldn't have, or he entertains her for a bit, like when she came to him after he shanked Karin saying that she wanted to join up with him. Seriously, if this guy had no feelings for Sakura, he would have wasted her just like he did Karin instead of asking her to do stuff and then try to stab her in the back in the most literal manner possible. Because you don't simply go, "Oh, hey, we don't have any kind of relationship now" and expect to feel that on the same emotional level; feelings don't work like that. You can tell yourself repeatedly that you don't have anything with anyone, and perhaps it might stick in time, but you can't turn feelings and emotions off like they're a light switch. If he could, Sasuke wouldn't have thought of Snake/Hawk as his old teammates and saved them during the fiasco that fighting Killer Bee turned into, nor would he have turned to trying to murderkill everyone attached to him.
4- LOL... shipping glasses. You funny. I was seeing that when I was rooting for NaruSaku, so I'm pretty certain it's not the glasses talking.
Going back to original intentions, Masashi developed Sasuke and Sakura at the editor's request for there to be a romantic triangle (I believe someone here pointed out how the plot was like Slam Dunk; gee, I wonder why...). With that in mind, yeah, there's going to be development on those ends. And repeating myself for a third time -- the flashback scene can be debatable. However, it doesn't have to be exclusively one or the other, either, especially in light of the romantic triangle.
5- Again, it's all about mood and location. Asking a guy at a barbecue to put a hot dog in your bun is going to be interpreted much differently if you were alone with that guy in your bedroom.
6- Again, your friend doesn't speak for the whole of the Japanese population; I've read other people's blogs who live in Japan, and quite frankly, they're sick of the US fanbase being so disrespectful over the ending as well as misinterpreting their reactions. I don't know what numbers your friend was showing you, but I do know that on the whole, the entire manga industry is suffering, as they're losing ground to new technology, lack of fresh ideas and cool (male) characters, and people being less inclined to buy books and rather read on their iPhones. And that's not even getting into Weekly Shonen Jump being in decline since 1996, or even the "cease and desist" orders from Viz and Wanicomi and the closing of scanlation sites in the last few years. In a nut, there are far too many variables in play to pull one set of numbers and go, "See?! PROOOOOF!!" about anything. I mean, taking a number out of context will help your argument, but that doesn't make it the whole truth.
Back to grasping at straws, you really should have said "pairing fans in general" because NS is sure as hell not exempt. If we were being totally honest, most all pairings have some basis of exaggeration, interpretation, and conjecture involved to make their case in this series and extremism has taken things way, way too far. Or was I hallucinating that this board went into total lockdown for a few months because of folks being unable to handle the ending to this series?
Oh, and just some food for thought -- all this romance drama we're talking about; the vast majority of it came under Kosuke Yahagi's watch, the guy everyone says is the only reason why Masashi got as far as he did. Which mean he not only thought it was good, he approved it if he didn't suggest it himself. Interesting, ne?
Heaven and Earth Deity
Posted 08 June 2015 - 02:53 PM
The Phantom
Posted 09 June 2015 - 01:47 AM
1- Why would you assume Masashi was lying? It could simply be a matter of interpretation. He had one version in mind while you have another.
2- Which, again, Sasuke being empathic for anyone involves a lot of highly charged emotions. It's pretty much his entire driving force for much of the series. However, for Sasuke to care about Sakura's feelings out of a sense of empathy for her pain goes counter to his "pure soul" thing without involving some brand of actual like, in his case. Naruto could empathize with people he doesn't like at the time, but Sasuke isn't that kind of person. If he likes you, he's not going to be all flowers and candy. In fact, in a sense, he's less likely to express it outside of little things, much like Squall from FFVIII, as much as I hate to bring that one up. So, yeah, him building Sakura up like that is a huge development, no matter how you ascribe it.
3- Your friend doesn't speak for the entirety of the Japanese community, though, only himself. And to further your point about trying to kill Sakura on multiple occasions, he did the same thing to Naruto, and that's supposed to be the guy he thinks of as a brother! Hell, the one moment he saw Naruto in the forest while looking for Itachi, he insta-shanked him on sight.
Sakura, though, the times he has tried to kill her, there has been some moment of pause when, rationally and reasonably, he shouldn't have, or he entertains her for a bit, like when she came to him after he shanked Karin saying that she wanted to join up with him. Seriously, if this guy had no feelings for Sakura, he would have wasted her just like he did Karin instead of asking her to do stuff and then try to stab her in the back in the most literal manner possible. Because you don't simply go, "Oh, hey, we don't have any kind of relationship now" and expect to feel that on the same emotional level; feelings don't work like that. You can tell yourself repeatedly that you don't have anything with anyone, and perhaps it might stick in time, but you can't turn feelings and emotions off like they're a light switch. If he could, Sasuke wouldn't have thought of Snake/Hawk as his old teammates and saved them during the fiasco that fighting Killer Bee turned into, nor would he have turned to trying to murderkill everyone attached to him.
4- LOL... shipping glasses. You funny. I was seeing that when I was rooting for NaruSaku, so I'm pretty certain it's not the glasses talking.
Going back to original intentions, Masashi developed Sasuke and Sakura at the editor's request for there to be a romantic triangle (I believe someone here pointed out how the plot was like Slam Dunk; gee, I wonder why...). With that in mind, yeah, there's going to be development on those ends. And repeating myself for a third time -- the flashback scene can be debatable. However, it doesn't have to be exclusively one or the other, either, especially in light of the romantic triangle.
5- Again, it's all about mood and location. Asking a guy at a barbecue to put a hot dog in your bun is going to be interpreted much differently if you were alone with that guy in your bedroom.
6- Again, your friend doesn't speak for the whole of the Japanese population; I've read other people's blogs who live in Japan, and quite frankly, they're sick of the US fanbase being so disrespectful over the ending as well as misinterpreting their reactions. I don't know what numbers your friend was showing you, but I do know that on the whole, the entire manga industry is suffering, as they're losing ground to new technology, lack of fresh ideas and cool (male) characters, and people being less inclined to buy books and rather read on their iPhones. And that's not even getting into Weekly Shonen Jump being in decline since 1996, or even the "cease and desist" orders from Viz and Wanicomi and the closing of scanlation sites in the last few years. In a nut, there are far too many variables in play to pull one set of numbers and go, "See?! PROOOOOF!!" about anything. I mean, taking a number out of context will help your argument, but that doesn't make it the whole truth.
Back to grasping at straws, you really should have said "pairing fans in general" because NS is sure as hell not exempt. If we were being totally honest, most all pairings have some basis of exaggeration, interpretation, and conjecture involved to make their case in this series and extremism has taken things way, way too far. Or was I hallucinating that this board went into total lockdown for a few months because of folks being unable to handle the ending to this series?
Oh, and just some food for thought -- all this romance drama we're talking about; the vast majority of it came under Kosuke Yahagi's watch, the guy everyone says is the only reason why Masashi got as far as he did. Which mean he not only thought it was good, he approved it if he didn't suggest it himself. Interesting, ne?
1- I never said Kishi was lying, in fact I said that Kishi would have no motive to liewhen he said sasuke was "pure", when he said pure, he didn't mean sasuke had a pure soul ( the story itself should be pretty clear on this regard), Kishi meant Sasuke was pure relating to how blunt and honest he is...
2- I will just copy Rocci's reponse here because I don't know very much about Squall
"Sorry but it is not a big deal, only ss will think like that.
And the only think that similar between sasuke and squall is their dark emo loner attitude, but not their romance because that position ironically fill by naruto. Rinoa doesn't initially love squall, she love seifer who is squall kitten rival, antagonist, and trouble maker like sasuke. Don't forget that squall already interest with rinks as soon as her introduction unlike sasuke who only show interest in chapter 699. "
It's pretty much clear that Sasuke cares for Sakura during part 2, as a friend, as a teammate as a comrade, kind of like the same with Kakashi. Yet Sasuke chose to discard those bonds at the end of part 1, the only bond he couldn't truly discard was Naruto's for whatever reason
3- Since he is from japan, he used give us a more detailed view on how the general japanese people behave and think. I don't think you've met him... even though he liked NS to a degree he was pretty much impartial on his views and translations
Sasuke couldn't kill Naruto back in part 1, then during part 2 everytime he dished something out against Naruto, Naruto dished something back to him, that's what makes their bond or relation even more healthy than the SS one, Sasuke outright tries to kill Sakura and she just takes it, then she insults her in the war arc and she just takes it...
As I said again trying to compare Sasuke bond with Naruto main theme of the series, though kind of bad developed, with a the SS bond ( horribly developed bond ) makes no sense
Smh, you're grasping at straws again, seriously. Sasuke's intention was to kill Sakura, she took out her kunai and went to kill Karin as he asked ( with hidden intentions of course but can Sasuke read minds ? ) , however this didn't matter for Sasuke, he would kill her either way, he just tricked her into turning her back on him that's it. And then afterwards he would slash her throat with her own kunai without a second glance
4- This is unusual then, a NS fan with SS pairing glasses the first time I see one... wow 
He made the romance triangle thing because his editor suggested to him and he did everything he editor used to say, the editor said it would make the writing of the characters easier and then Kishi said that it worked
Sasuke and Sakura being the editor ideas don't actually matter that much, Orochimaru was also the editor's idea, and the chuunin exam too
5- the thank you isn't romantic, period.
Sasuke didn't loved or liked Salkura above of friend level in part 1
He didn't show any indication of it in part 2 until maybe the ending
If you are trying to argue that Sasuke's thank you was romantic you'd have to argue that every other thank you in the series was romantic too.
What happened is simple, Sasuke thanked for being there for him as team 7, whcih actually felt like a new family to him
6- Wow, seriously?
Because most of the comments I saw are actually against the ending and the last, there is even a whole gallery from 2-chan with japanese comments around Tumblr
But as Rocci said, there will be those people that liked the ending (for example SS and NH japanese fans) so nothing is absolute eiher way, though I'd say the general fanbase didn't really liked the ending and the last very much
The last even brought the rage of Kakashi and Sasuke fans who are pretty big in japan itself
I didn't actually saw any of these so called "japanese fans" wishing that the US fanbase stopped disrespecting the ending( in fact I see more people from the US saying this) , I'd say the majority of the japanese fans took the lackluster ending and the last movie rather poorly for that matter
I'd like to take a time and look arounf tumblr to find the 2ch posts for you, but however I don't have time...
About grasping at straws - yes, I very much agree it's a common fact among all the pairing fans ( yet you're the first person I see who says that he rooted for NS and still grasp straws for SS ), this board was on lockdown not because we didn't "handle" the ending but because of troll activity, unfortunately if you didn't knew people on the internet can be pretty immature.
"Romance drama came under Kosuke Yahagi watch..."
Sorry sorry, I guess i read it wrong...
no wait you actually did say that...Jfc
Yahagi suggested to make a love triangle at the beginning so it could be easier to make character interactions between MC's, Kishi accepted and it worked. Part 1 never really focused in pairing drama, really, Kishi himself said he only focused on Naruto's partner after he began working in part 2 ( Naruto's teenage years)...and what happened at the beginning of part 2? A lot of NS moments, and this was still under Yahagi's direction, if things conitnued like this it was pretty easy to see where things would go, still the NS moments were still a minor thing in the whole scheme of things hell, even Sakura's character who was focused on romance, she somehow raised above this.
However everything went to crap after Pein arc (Yahagi left after Sasuke gained the MS), that's basically when the awful convoluted KS arc began, and then Sakura's character began to revert to her part 2 self
So no, don't try to blame Yahagi for Kishi's poor handling of his own characters
Persona 5 hype
Academy Student
Posted 10 June 2015 - 02:49 PM
Thing #1: Sasuke the pure soul.
Rocci says that Sasuke is a pure soul and comments how he easily changes his mind. Which is effectively saying Sasuke's a simpleminded fool. I don't really have an argument for this, since, yeah. Okay. I'm going to leave this part as is.
Thing #2: Sasuke on Sakura:
Okay, I admit using Squall was a bad analogy, largely because FFVIII was a great example of how horrible a romance angle can completely bork the entire story. I was largely thinking of his personality and how he's extremely hard to get to open up to others: the Sugar and Ice persona. In that regard is Sasuke like him (we could talk about the other aspects, too, but I just spent two hours writing and deleting comments about FFVIII which had nothingto do with Naruto, so let's not... XD; sufficient to say, I do have some... issues about that one).
But, for all the talk about Sasuke only seeing Sakura as a comrade at best, there's nothing suggesting he only sees her as an ally when he went berserk on the Sound folks in her defense and Sakura initiated a Cooldown hug on him. Yes, he had CS action going on in the first part, but that does nothing to explain why she could get him to calm the bleep down when logically, she shouldn't have without strong feelings involved on his part.
Thing #3: Sasuke, Sakura, and Feelings
@rocci: I have no clue what you're talking about. What point did I say anything about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke being admirable? Because I'm pretty certain never came up here. I think the closest I said anything about that was in another thread, and it wasn't so much admirable that she would remain devoted to Sasuke, but i was her choice, and if that's what she wants, okay, best of luck to you. Because, I don't know; she's not my problem or something. She's reasonably grown enough to make her own decisions about her life, and, if these threads have taught anyone anything, it should be "The more you argue with someone that they're wrong, the more likely they're going to dig in their heels and counterargue you, no matter how nonsensical it will sound to you."
And with that, I'm taking my own advice, and "If you feel that way, I can't really change your mind or something." So, yeah.
Thing #4: The Romantic Triangle Angle
4- This is unusual then, a NS fan with SS pairing glasses the first time I see one... wow
He made the romance triangle thing because his editor suggested to him and he did everything he editor used to say, the editor said it would make the writing of the characters easier and then Kishi said that it worked
Sasuke and Sakura being the editor ideas don't actually matter that much, Orochimaru was also the editor's idea, and the chuunin exam too
I'm full of surprises. :)
Though I really don't see anything in accordance to "Yahagi said writing a love triangle would make storywriting easier." Not from the posted interview, at the least. To quote:
Kishimoto: Yahagi-san told me to focus on the main character in the first two chapters. And then to use chapter 3 onward to establish the rival and the heroine and create a love-triangle relationship between the characters. I'm not good with female characters, so I wasn't planning on this initially. But once I established the triangle, it became a lot easier to create the chapters after that. I was surprised by how good the advice was. And that's why I tend to listen to what he tells me.
So, despite what you said earlier, there clearly was a romantic triangle happening, of which you need to develop things on all ends to make it work.
Thing #5: Thank You
Your counterargument is silly and means nothing in relation to my point, which relies on place and setting to mean something different from the normal connotation. Of course, it also invalidates someone's claim on here about Naruto's thank you = I love you NS moment to Sakura when she was healing his and Sasuke's arms, so it's kind of hard to decide how to move on this... ah, what the hell? Moving on...
Thing #6: Other Stuff
Yeah, there's a great wide world out there, you know. I'm not going to say NS doesn't have some love in Japan, but I would advise against presuming that just because one NS fan from Japan (no matter how impartial you paint him, dude is still an NS fan on this site) is telling you about the greatness of NS in Japan, it doesn't mean that it's really hitting like that. In fact, just from my own knowledge of Japanese culture from the times I was paying $18 per oversized Ranma and Tenchi manga books, that doesn't seem entirely right (then again "tsunderes").
But yeah, you have to look at a lot more than just comments from 2chan to try and get a bigger picture of what's going on when you yourself don't know the language and/or have lack of access to their material. Because rumors are nasty pieces of work when you can understand them; in foreign languages, you may as well think it's gospel truth because "X doesn't have reason to lie." And believe me, I've seen some rumors that sent me to the optometrist to get my eyes refitted, as hard as they rolled out of my head, because the so-called "rumor" just reeked of petty vindictiveness, not to mention it was next to impossible to provide any proof or substance. And yet, I'm pretty certain that certain people will buy into it because they want to believe it's all true or because it supports their stance, and who cares if it's true or not?
About grasping at straws - yes, I very much agree it's a common fact among all the pairing fans ( yet you're the first person I see who says that he rooted for NS and still grasp straws for SS )
Like I said, I try to treat all characters equally. What I didn't explain is that I read them without prejudice and whatever comes out to me, hey, I make a note of it. Originally, I did this because I wanted to tell Naruto fanfics, but I want things to be within context of canon, so it takes some studying as a writer to get a good grasp of characters and their situations. So, whatever I come across, it's something that I try to use to better detect patterns and locate story points where I can change something and develop a different situation to fit within the work's body. Because I'm not a fan of arbitrary change X stories, as most of them are plain ol' dumb (so, I'm supposed to believe that Naruto is supersmart and has crazy ninja skills, but "for reasons" he's still put on a team with Sakura and Sauske? FML).
"Romance drama came under Kosuke Yahagi watch..."
Sorry sorry, I guess i read it wrong...
no wait you actually did say that...Jfc
Yahagi suggested to make a love triangle at the beginning so it could be easier to make character interactions between MC's, Kishi accepted and it worked. Part 1 never really focused in pairing drama, really, Kishi himself said he only focused on Naruto's partner after he began working in part 2 ( Naruto's teenage years)...and what happened at the beginning of part 2? A lot of NS moments, and this was still under Yahagi's direction, if things conitnued like this it was pretty easy to see where things would go, still the NS moments were still a minor thing in the whole scheme of things hell, even Sakura's character who was focused on romance, she somehow raised above this.
However everything went to crap after Pein arc (Yahagi left after Sasuke gained the MS), that's basically when the awful convoluted KS arc began, and then Sakura's character began to revert to her part 2 self
So no, don't try to blame Yahagi for Kishi's poor handling of his own characters
You misunderstood; I was talking about the romance subplot's existence, which you were negative about. The things we were talking about in Part 1, that if that was meant to be as I said it should have been done better, that was all under Yahagi. And, again, I do not know where this idea that Yahagi suggested a love triangle to make storytelling easier came from, but it was not in the link I posted in my last comments, so until someone points out a source, I'm going with exaggeration/assumption.
And the idea that Sakura, whose focal was romance, but "somehow raised above this"... :smh:
Edited by goldenarms, 10 June 2015 - 02:52 PM.
The Phantom
Posted 11 June 2015 - 01:01 AM
Thing #1: Sasuke the pure soul.
Rocci says that Sasuke is a pure soul and comments how he easily changes his mind. Which is effectively saying Sasuke's a simpleminded fool. I don't really have an argument for this, since, yeah. Okay. I'm going to leave this part as is.
Thing #2: Sasuke on Sakura:
Okay, I admit using Squall was a bad analogy, largely because FFVIII was a great example of how horrible a romance angle can completely bork the entire story. I was largely thinking of his personality and how he's extremely hard to get to open up to others: the Sugar and Ice persona. In that regard is Sasuke like him (we could talk about the other aspects, too, but I just spent two hours writing and deleting comments about FFVIII which had nothingto do with Naruto, so let's not... XD; sufficient to say, I do have some... issues about that one).
But, for all the talk about Sasuke only seeing Sakura as a comrade at best, there's nothing suggesting he only sees her as an ally when he went berserk on the Sound folks in her defense and Sakura initiated a Cooldown hug on him. Yes, he had CS action going on in the first part, but that does nothing to explain why she could get him to calm the bleep down when logically, she shouldn't have without strong feelings involved on his part.
Thing #3: Sasuke, Sakura, and Feelings
@rocci: I have no clue what you're talking about. What point did I say anything about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke being admirable? Because I'm pretty certain never came up here. I think the closest I said anything about that was in another thread, and it wasn't so much admirable that she would remain devoted to Sasuke, but i was her choice, and if that's what she wants, okay, best of luck to you. Because, I don't know; she's not my problem or something. She's reasonably grown enough to make her own decisions about her life, and, if these threads have taught anyone anything, it should be "The more you argue with someone that they're wrong, the more likely they're going to dig in their heels and counterargue you, no matter how nonsensical it will sound to you."
And with that, I'm taking my own advice, and "If you feel that way, I can't really change your mind or something." So, yeah.
Thing #4: The Romantic Triangle Angle
I'm full of surprises. :)
Though I really don't see anything in accordance to "Yahagi said writing a love triangle would make storywriting easier." Not from the posted interview, at the least. To quote:
So, despite what you said earlier, there clearly was a romantic triangle happening, of which you need to develop things on all ends to make it work.
Thing #5: Thank You
Your counterargument is silly and means nothing in relation to my point, which relies on place and setting to mean something different from the normal connotation. Of course, it also invalidates someone's claim on here about Naruto's thank you = I love you NS moment to Sakura when she was healing his and Sasuke's arms, so it's kind of hard to decide how to move on this... ah, what the hell? Moving on...
1-Sasuke easily changed his mind (notably after Itachi's demise ) because Kishi had no grasp in his character. That's why he looks like a fickle person in the end of everything, his decisions changing too much and some of them being kind of forced, this happened because Kishi is not a good writer
The thing about Sasuke being a "pure soul", well that can only work if the meaning of "pure" is on the fact that SAsuke is always honest and blunt regarding what he wants and views
2- The cooldown hug is not a proof of Sasuke's feelings towards Sakura, or anything like that, she was his comrade and he cared for her to a degree also respected her at least during part 1 ( granted all the while being annoyed by her fan girl side).
He reacted to the cooldown hug because with the CS was controlling his mind, he was drunk with the power, Sakura's words made him come to his senses....but...does this means he liked her romantically? No...I mean both Naruto's and Sakura's words also made him come to his senses before his fight with Orochimaru in the forest, so words from his teammates reaching up part 1 Sasuke is nothing new
It's a SS moment that could've set up some kind of progression in their relationship for sure but Sasuke's attitude towards Sakura after this event never really changed other than him beginning to consider her family, together with the rest of team 7, which then ended up quite tragically because of Itachi's intervention
If you somehow still want to argue that Sasuke likes Sakura based on this isolated event then fine, but people from NS and even other pairings could say the same thing based on other isolated events in the story too. Ultimately, Kishi failed to properly develop SS as a whole, especially with the development on part 2 being almost whole on the negative side. It doesn't help that Sakura's crush was always seen as inconsequential and made little sense in regards to backstory.
3-I believe I already said my thoughts about this matter in a past thread, the SS relationship was not healthy in the manga, if you had a friend or a dear person (in RL) who was in a situation like that would you honestly just say "good luck to you" ? I find that hard to believe.
Many people who read the manga hated Sakura ( thanks to Kishi's sloppy writing mostly, some people liked her and genuinely wanted her to develop properly, and of course there are some that with some twisted logic think that her happiness was in a relationship that never felt right within the manga itself...
I think maybe you just fall into the kind of people that just didn't cared that much for Sakura in the first place... that would pretty much explain your response
4- I need to thank you for posting that quote up
But once I established the triangle, it became a lot easier to create the chapters after that. I was surprised by how good the advice was. And that's why I tend to listen to what he tells me.
Here it is, basicallly setting up the love triangle was a means to an end and that was to make it easier to set up chapters and character interaction.
The love triangle was never idealized to finish in a certain manner since the beginning, I think you can agree with me on that since it's quite clear... Kishi and his editors changed ideas multiple times since the beginning of part 2 ( where Kishi really began to think about Naruto's pair) ...so much that parts of the romantic subplot got messy and toxic even
5- I don't care if the point I estabilished invalidates some other person claim here. Naruto's thank you to Sakura in the last chapters was not romantic either
The thank you in japan ( Arigatou ) is just thank you my friend, that's it, it expresses gratitude.Futhermore "Thank you" unlike "I like you/ I love you " has only one meaning in japan and you're trying to argue that somehow Sasuke's thank you in Sakura's confession was romantic in some degree and yet the only argument you show is the invalid one relating to "the setting and the place"
Sasuke after getting away from konoha shows how he cut all of his bonds from konoha in his first appereance in part 2, he genuinely thought he had... until Naruto proved him wrong in the KS arc, but that's more because their bond was something else beyond even simple comrades and/or teammates. If Sakura was truly special to Sasuke in some degree I wonder why didn't he thought of her individually at least a little? The answer is either a) Kishi didn't care or b) it wasn't Kishi intention to show he really had feelings for her in first place.
Thing #6: Other Stuff
Yeah, there's a great wide world out there, you know. I'm not going to say NS doesn't have some love in Japan, but I would advise against presuming that just because one NS fan from Japan (no matter how impartial you paint him, dude is still an NS fan on this site) is telling you about the greatness of NS in Japan, it doesn't mean that it's really hitting like that. In fact, just from my own knowledge of Japanese culture from the times I was paying $18 per oversized Ranma and Tenchi manga books, that doesn't seem entirely right (then again "tsunderes").
Did you presume this? I never said our japanese friend here told us that NS was REALLY big in japan, it's pretty much known that the yaoi pairings were the major thing there, especially KakaIru
But yeah, you have to look at a lot more than just comments from 2chan to try and get a bigger picture of what's going on when you yourself don't know the language and/or have lack of access to their material. Because rumors are nasty pieces of work when you can understand them; in foreign languages, you may as well think it's gospel truth because "X doesn't have reason to lie." And believe me, I've seen some rumors that sent me to the optometrist to get my eyes refitted, as hard as they rolled out of my head, because the so-called "rumor" just reeked of petty vindictiveness, not to mention it was next to impossible to provide any proof or substance. And yet, I'm pretty certain that certain people will buy into it because they want to believe it's all true or because it supports their stance, and who cares if it's true or not?
2-chan is just the biggest foruim in japan though, especially regarding animes and such.
So I don't agree with you, I think we can get a general view from there, a bigger picture as you said so...
And not knowing the language didn't matter, we had two translators here, our friend from japan and another one, no less capable though
The comments weren't really rumors...they were the actual thing with source and everything, if you want I think a poster from here @NaruSaku4life3g was the one that began posting them on tumble, you can talk to him if you're curious...
Like I said, I try to treat all characters equally. What I didn't explain is that I read them without prejudice and whatever comes out to me, hey, I make a note of it. Originally, I did this because I wanted to tell Naruto fanfics, but I want things to be within context of canon, so it takes some studying as a writer to get a good grasp of characters and their situations. So, whatever I come across, it's something that I try to use to better detect patterns and locate story points where I can change something and develop a different situation to fit within the work's body. Because I'm not a fan of arbitrary change X stories, as most of them are plain ol' dumb
I don't know about this...I don't think you care about Sakura at all as I said before
And either way, this is irrelevant to Naruto, the author himself didn't care about all of his characters in a equal manner, hell, he didn't even care about his MC's in an equal manner
Anyway though, you have to be careful over these things you do regarding this story, over analysing or over thinking things somehow can end up leading some people into some views that don't make any sense.
This is fairly common among shippers because they tend to analyse everything about their pairing interactions and such, and that's why things like "Sasuke always liked Sakura since the wave arc", "Hinata is Haku parallel" and even NS ones like the " thank you" line from Naruto in the last chapters being "I love you"...
However this is surprises me...generally people who are writing fiction and aren't part of a pairing faction in specific don't usually fall for theses kind of traps that come with over-analysing...so it is strange to me, that you, a person, who says that it shipped NS, over analysing a scene to find SS hints on it...it's like you are trying to justify the ending and Kishi's decisions somehow
I'd say thought that it's useless, there is no justifying, Kishi screwed up his story even beyonfd pairing related matters...
(so, I'm supposed to believe that Naruto is supersmart and has crazy ninja skills, but "for reasons" he's still put on a team with Sakura and Sauske? FML).
Well, Sasuke was the designated rival and Sakura the designated heroine. Yahagi suggested to Kishi that creating a love triangle would make easier to develop new chapters and character interactions especially with the girl since Kishi had few knowledge of how to write females
Let's suppose though that Shikamaru was created as the rival and Ino as the heroine...there still was going to be a team with a "love triangle" going around them, not because they were setting up for a future pairing or anything but having a set of characteristics that you can fall too when you lack ideas on character interactions is useful to the writer
You misunderstood; I was talking about the romance subplot's existence, which you were negative about. The things we were talking about in Part 1, that if that was meant to be as I said it should have been done better, that was all under Yahagi. And, again, I do not know where this idea that Yahagi suggested a love triangle to make storytelling easier came from, but it was not in the link I posted in my last comments, so until someone points out a source, I'm going with exaggeration/assumption.
And the idea that Sakura, whose focal was romance, but "somehow raised above this"... :smh:
I'm not negative to the romantic subplot existence, I'm negative to it''s deturpation and the bad way it was handled especially regarding Sakura
Part 1 really wasn't that strong in the romantic subplot or even early part 2 for that matter, of course in part 1 Sakura was a mostly a fangirl but this was countered by the fact that it was obvious that she would develop somehow in the future and her crush being painfully one sided, as I said the problems came when this plot was brought onto surface once again and thanks to it,made Sakura character regress and hellped ruining the KS story arc with it's badly developed drama
Also the love triangle creation =/= romantic subplot
the romantic subplot regarding the MC was only thought by Kishi after the beginning of part 2, inpart 1 all we had where comedic moments and a bunch of one sided crushes, part 2 began changing this aspect till it ended up becoming a mess after Yahagi got out
Why the love triangle was created though?
Yahagi-san told me to focus on the main character in the first two chapters. And then to use chapter 3 onward to establish the rival and the heroine and create a love-triangle relationship between the characters. I'm not good with female characters, so I wasn't planning on this initially. But once I established the triangle, it became a lot easier to create the chapters after that. I was surprised by how good the advice was. And that's why I tend to listen to what he tells me
Thanks for the quote by the way, Kishi didn't really know how to write girls, so with the love traingle set up, making character interactions and new chapters was a lot easier because the characters had something to fall upon, something stable connecting them that Kishi could use in the future to generate comedic relief, tension, etc
IMO, I understand Yahagi's suggestion because for an amateur like Kishi, having a tool like this would be a really good crutch but I can't helkp to think that this love triangle thing in the long run ended up detracting a way from the whole team 7 bond thing that part 1 was supposed to make us buy
Persona 5 hype
Rookie
Posted 25 July 2015 - 05:57 AM
I only support him up to chapter 698. He should have adjusted his Revolution to include Naruto as a partner and never apologized for fighting evil.
Was once Sasuke's biggest fan.
And then chapter 699 happened.
He should have called Kakashi out on his hypocrisy,
instead he was left alone by Naruto...
Hidden Village of Konoha →
Naruto General →
About Sakura's love confession to NarutoStarted by OrenjiSakuranbo, 03 Jun 2018  Sakura, Naruto, Narusaku and 2 more...
|
|
|
||
Hidden Village of Konoha →
Naruto General →
To What Degree IS Kakashi Responsible for Team 7's Neuroticism?Started by Tsuki Hoshino, 20 Nov 2017 Kakashi, Team 7, Sakura, Naruto and 1 more...
|
|
|
||
Showcase Gallery →
Fiction Press →
Challenges →
Sasuke Never Left the Village ChallengeStarted by Wubbzy, 25 May 2017 Team Seven, Naruto, Sakura and 2 more...
|
|
|
||
Hidden Village of Konoha →
Naruto General →
Poll
Naruto Villains DiscusionStarted by BlueStarSaber, 10 Mar 2017 Naruto, Naruto Villains and 6 more...
|
|
|
||
Hidden Village of Konoha →
Icha Icha NaruSaku →
Sakura Theory (Long post - related to the ending)Started by asvpovo33, 01 Apr 2016 Sakura, Naruto, NaruSaku, Hinata and 5 more...
|
|
|
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
