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#3301 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 31 October 2021 - 05:10 AM

Yeah. Obvious wasn't it? Honestly, part of me regrets playing the GBA games recently to remind myself why I love the franchise because it pulled me back into this. But Sacred Stones was awesome and while Blazing Blade was unfair the story was great.

 

I mean, it's not a problem unique to Naruto or Fire Emblem. There were a bunch of old fanbases who had this same problem back when the internet wasn't a big. Sailor Moon fans who view Pluto as some sort of champion of what is essentially Moorcockian Law, or Ranma fans who thought his mother was obsessed with having grandbabies. Sesshomaru being some sort of demonic king in part of Japan. Stuff like that shaped a lot of fanfic circles just before Naruto came out. Even now, I've seen so many fics in the Hamefura fandom where the Fortune Lover version of Geordo is turned into a complete bastard while Katarina is treated as innocent (though, I think there's evidence in the spin-off to suggest the story was more complicated than the game presented).
 

Maybe it's just the self-indulgent nature of fanfic at work?

Well the only time you seem to come back here recently is to complain about her. I miss you complaining about things in general.

 

Wasn't Sesshomaru technically the strongest demon after his father died (until the sequel) there was a kind of sorta ruler of the demons (the sequel even says he rules half of Japan while Kirinmaru rules the other) it normally doesn't matter because the demons are so chaotic the barely recognize him as such. The rest I don't know about to comment.

 

People write a theory they have in their head and people that have similar thoughts go along with it. Even if it contradicts the story entirely. Though, it normally doesn't matter since they don't effect the story. Not the case for Naruto when you can tell SP staff have their own fanfic theories and desires that influence the audience and Kishimoto rarely put his foot down enough to stop it. His large indifference towards the anime is part of why he is in the situation he is in right now. Also, modern western cartoon but that's because their staff are filled with fanfic shippers writers that listen to fans too much.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 31 October 2021 - 05:11 AM.


#3302 VanitasDS76491

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Posted 31 October 2021 - 12:46 PM

You mean with twitter or the fandoms part?

Because the fandoms....they don't really show me anything or they gave me a vague scene from one of the movie, but when I show a manga page they call it "non-canon." I never make statements without a back-up source, but these people can't give me anything. They rather try and debunk my statements than provide anything to back up their own statement.

both even twitter is garbage.

i see the only canon what they say. 

how can the magna not be canon is the main source of the story



#3303 James S Cassidy

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Posted 31 October 2021 - 04:29 PM

And, they believe that is more canon then anything you can show them. So, eventually, why argue with them?

 

I don't. The moment they say something stupid like "I didn't watch Naruto the Last" I end the conversation right there. Forget interviews or anything like that...if they didn't even see the canon material, then everything else is off the table and the convoy ends because they are firing blanks. 

Anything past 700, most people I have talked to have not seen anything....and yet they bring up the light novels at me. So they read the light novels, but ignore Naruto Gaiden, Naruto the Last, and even Boruto movie? Seems now they are just repeating things from other sources. 

The newer argument I have seen lately is when you bring up the interviewers about how Sasuke and Sakura loves seem "contrived," they say "you see the part where he laughed? It was a joke. He didn't mean it literally."

SS is the worst because they INSERT facts that not only Kishimoto has never mentioned, but downright denied. He says he can't write romance, but these think he is a romance genius where a mere peasant like me will never understand.

 

 

both even twitter is garbage.

i see the only canon what they say. 

how can the magna not be canon is the main source of the story

 

Because people only see what they want to believe
 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 31 October 2021 - 04:31 PM.

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#3304 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 31 October 2021 - 09:36 PM

I don't. The moment they say something stupid like "I didn't watch Naruto the Last" I end the conversation right there. Forget interviews or anything like that...if they didn't even see the canon material, then everything else is off the table and the convoy ends because they are firing blanks. 

Anything past 700, most people I have talked to have not seen anything....and yet they bring up the light novels at me. So they read the light novels, but ignore Naruto Gaiden, Naruto the Last, and even Boruto movie? Seems now they are just repeating things from other sources. 

The newer argument I have seen lately is when you bring up the interviewers about how Sasuke and Sakura loves seem "contrived," they say "you see the part where he laughed? It was a joke. He didn't mean it literally."

SS is the worst because they INSERT facts that not only Kishimoto has never mentioned, but downright denied. He says he can't write romance, but these think he is a romance genius where a mere peasant like me will never understand.

 

 

Because people only see what they want to believe.

The last was canon up until people actually saw it. Then they realizes those idiots destroyed Naruto to justify getting together with Hinata. So, it has been moved to the 'general idea of the story' is canon but the movie itself isn't. I think even Kishimoto said something like that at one point.

 

The light novels are apparently vaguely canon as well though you have ones like the one of Sakura and Sasuke going on a mission to find a cure for Naruto being made non canon apparently. It depends on if they have been adapted into the anime or not since that became canon once they got control of the series.

 

Jokes are often used to cover up, vent, and play off true feelings. He can't outright say he hates the ending, but he can joke that he does.

 

Well, they have to live in a fantasy world because the manga and the anime don't support SS, they mock it more than anything. They want Sasuke to be the dream dangerous mysterious bad boy the secretly cares about them...I mean Sakura. The problem is the big moment of showing he secretly like her wasn't Sasuke it was Naruto in disguise. Sasuke as shown when leaving the village makes it clear that he always saw her as the annoying acquaintance he had to work with and compared to Naruto it was easy for him to sever his bonds with her. After leaving the village she became an annoyance that lives in a delusion that he would kill without hesitation if things didn't keep getting his way. He got with her out of guilt then spent more then a decade doing anything to not spend time with her until his daughter was brought on a mission. Then it just visit every once and a while and leave the next morning. Compared to Naruto who he does care about and Bolt who once he becomes his teacher he is there whenever Bolt needs him.


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 31 October 2021 - 09:41 PM.


#3305 RulesofNature

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Posted 02 November 2021 - 01:14 AM

Well the only time you seem to come back here recently is to complain about her. I miss you complaining about things in general.

 

...

 

People write a theory they have in their head and people that have similar thoughts go along with it. Even if it contradicts the story entirely. Though, it normally doesn't matter since they don't effect the story. Not the case for Naruto when you can tell SP staff have their own fanfic theories and desires that influence the audience and Kishimoto rarely put his foot down enough to stop it. His large indifference towards the anime is part of why he is in the situation he is in right now. Also, modern western cartoon but that's because their staff are filled with fanfic shippers writers that listen to fans too much.

I've been busy lately, and let's face it. I stopped reading Naruto after 700 dropped. Hell, at this point I've even given up reading Naruto fanfics. I'm just not really into this fandom anymore. It's not like the creators care about the story or characters, it's all money to them. I just can't be bothered to give a damn when Naruto is that obvious about it. I can't pretend the creator had some vision or something besides making bank. It's an awful feeling.

 

As kittened up as the Edelgard stuff is, because some of the things people say to defend her are pretty kittened up, I can at least see the creators cared and tried to do something. The Japanese version is a lot more consistent in identifying her as a villain protagonist through lines that were changed in the translation as well as symbolism that the West isn't as familiar with. Like, if I'm going to explain how the game got screwed over in translation and by the fandom, I'll need you to consent first before I go off. Just, fair warning.

 

Anyway, I think a big part of it is that people  go to fandoms in order to indulge themselves. They like the content, it appeals to them, and fanworks allow them to have even more of it. And when you write fanworks, you can indulge yourself. You can change canon events, allow people to live happily ever after or punish those you feel deserving of it. The more this happens, the more the perception within the fandom is colored. You stop looking at the work itself, and instead turn your attention to the fandom surrounding it, to the point where the line between canon and fanon is blurred within the fandom.

 

Not to mention, people really like to confuse "Death of the Author" with "The text says whatever I want it to say."


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#3306 James S Cassidy

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Posted 02 November 2021 - 02:28 AM

The light novels are apparently vaguely canon as well though you have ones like the one of Sakura and Sasuke going on a mission to find a cure for Naruto being made non canon apparently. It depends on if they have been adapted into the anime or not since that became canon once they got control of the series.

Canon....not canon....it is irrelevant....it is more like "what they want vs what they hate."

 

 

Not to mention, people really like to confuse "Death of the Author" with "The text says whatever I want it to say."

This is I think the WORST fate a story can ever have. Yeah your work is popular, but people aren't even acknowledging the canon anymore. I mean literally no one. If someone else picks up the reigns of the story, they will write what they want instead of what was intended. If a fan picks it up, they read what they want to read and not what the author intended. This all coming from the same people that tell people like me that I "need to accept the canon."

Like....are you hearing yourselves? You're telling me to accept the canon for what it is all the while you are making your own rules of the game, ignoring what the writer says, attempt to erase any and all events that are not within your idealistic view on how this story should go, and don't even both reading any canon material UNLESS it supports what you want it to support. 

The excuses....oh man, the excuses have gotten worse and just when I think the arguments can't get any worse they surpass all expectations. 
"Sasuke/Naruto loves their respectful wives the whole time...they just didn't know it yet." Not only does this sound creepy, but if this were true then NO person would ever be put into the friendzone and we would all end up with the person we originally wanted.

"All of Sasuke's attempted murders on Sakura were his way of saying I love you." How? Since when does domestic abuse and just down right psychotic behavior equate to loving someone?

"Girls know true love since they were a child." I think you are giving people way too much credit. No way girls are thinking about shagging a boy at 4-5 years old.

"A woman is terrible if they give up on their loves" yet you say moving on from your original crush is realistic? Which is it? And if men are never truly in love, then how do you know that the person they are with now was their true love? What a sexist way of belittling men and women all at the same time.

I am just ranting now, but jesus....and I am not even going to talk about twitter's ideas and theories on the pairings....my god....they will literally take a random panel of Sasuke looking sad and go "Look how much he is thinking about Sakura here." Where? Where in god's name is it implied? That's not just denial that is inserting ideas that are not even there. 

I got so fed up I am just done. Every now and then I will have some fun, but it ends up being a complete waste and the person ends up just crashing and burning tell me "show me evidence of this happen or Kishimoto saying this." I then show them and they hand wave it and then I ask them to provide them proof and they so happen to have "lost it." "What year and where was the interview taking place?" Can't tell me. So, it is just them making up facts 

"Did you know Kishimoto said that Sasuke always loved Sakura since he first saw her?"
Is that why he said all that stuff in Chapter 693?

Just....grrr....


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#3307 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 02 November 2021 - 09:52 AM

Canon....not canon....it is irrelevant....it is more like "what they want vs what they hate."
 
This is I think the WORST fate a story can ever have. Yeah your work is popular, but people aren't even acknowledging the canon anymore. I mean literally no one. If someone else picks up the reigns of the story, they will write what they want instead of what was intended. If a fan picks it up, they read what they want to read and not what the author intended. This all coming from the same people that tell people like me that I "need to accept the canon."

Like....are you hearing yourselves? You're telling me to accept the canon for what it is all the while you are making your own rules of the game, ignoring what the writer says, attempt to erase any and all events that are not within your idealistic view on how this story should go, and don't even both reading any canon material UNLESS it supports what you want it to support. 

The excuses....oh man, the excuses have gotten worse and just when I think the arguments can't get any worse they surpass all expectations. 
"Sasuke/Naruto loves their respectful wives the whole time...they just didn't know it yet." Not only does this sound creepy, but if this were true then NO person would ever be put into the friendzone and we would all end up with the person we originally wanted.

"All of Sasuke's attempted murders on Sakura were his way of saying I love you." How? Since when does domestic abuse and just down right psychotic behavior equate to loving someone?

"Girls know true love since they were a child." I think you are giving people way too much credit. No way girls are thinking about shagging a boy at 4-5 years old.

"A woman is terrible if they give up on their loves" yet you say moving on from your original crush is realistic? Which is it? And if men are never truly in love, then how do you know that the person they are with now was their true love? What a sexist way of belittling men and women all at the same time.

I am just ranting now, but jesus....and I am not even going to talk about twitter's ideas and theories on the pairings....my god....they will literally take a random panel of Sasuke looking sad and go "Look how much he is thinking about Sakura here." Where? Where in god's name is it implied? That's not just denial that is inserting ideas that are not even there. 

I got so fed up I am just done. Every now and then I will have some fun, but it ends up being a complete waste and the person ends up just crashing and burning tell me "show me evidence of this happen or Kishimoto saying this." I then show them and they hand wave it and then I ask them to provide them proof and they so happen to have "lost it." "What year and where was the interview taking place?" Can't tell me. So, it is just them making up facts 

"Did you know Kishimoto said that Sasuke always loved Sakura since he first saw her?"
Is that why he said all that stuff in Chapter 693?

Just....grrr....


I think this is why comic books changing writers can be a double edge sword when it comes to canon. On one hand you can get new writers who understand the characters and do really good stories, sometimes even better than the previous writer. One the other hand you can get a bad writer who doesn't understand the character and only writers to his/her personal tastes regardless if it makes sense for the characters they are writing.

Honesty it's a shame that kishimoto gave up on sakura moving on from sasuke, because it would of been a good message to young girls that moving on from your first crush is okay, especially if the crush in question doesn't care about you.

#3308 DattebayoXShannaro

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Posted 06 November 2021 - 01:42 AM

As kittened up as the Edelgard stuff is, because some of the things people say to defend her are pretty kittened up, I can at least see the creators cared and tried to do something. The Japanese version is a lot more consistent in identifying her as a villain protagonist through lines that were changed in the translation as well as symbolism that the West isn't as familiar with. Like, if I'm going to explain how the game got screwed over in translation and by the fandom, I'll need you to consent first before I go off. Just, fair warning.

 

I give consent.  I'm really interested in this as FE fan, and as one who's taking the time to learn Japanese after how badly some some localizations have been.



#3309 Phantom_999

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Posted 07 November 2021 - 09:20 AM

Yeah. Obvious wasn't it? Honestly, part of me regrets playing the GBA games recently to remind myself why I love the franchise because it pulled me back into this. But Sacred Stones was awesome and while Blazing Blade was unfair the story was great.

 

I mean, it's not a problem unique to Naruto or Fire Emblem. There were a bunch of old fanbases who had this same problem back when the internet wasn't a big. Sailor Moon fans who view Pluto as some sort of champion of what is essentially Moorcockian Law, or Ranma fans who thought his mother was obsessed with having grandbabies. Sesshomaru being some sort of demonic king in part of Japan. Stuff like that shaped a lot of fanfic circles just before Naruto came out. Even now, I've seen so many fics in the Hamefura fandom where the Fortune Lover version of Geordo is turned into a complete bastard while Katarina is treated as innocent (though, I think there's evidence in the spin-off to suggest the story was more complicated than the game presented).
 

Maybe it's just the self-indulgent nature of fanfic at work?

 

I'll be honest I' never gave any thought to the logic of Edelgard's fans. Everything they say and do to defend her is because She's my waifu, I'm sure.


Edited by Phantom_999, 07 November 2021 - 09:20 AM.

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#3310 RulesofNature

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Posted 10 November 2021 - 05:02 PM

I give consent.  I'm really interested in this as FE fan, and as one who's taking the time to learn Japanese after how badly some some localizations have been.

 

Okay, first off the game uses Buddhist symbolism. Your avatar's personal class of Enlightened One? That's called Nirvana in Japan, which is supposed to be a state where someone extinguishes the three flames/poisons of greed, hatred and ignorance that plague humanity. The empty throne we see on the title screen, that's a Buddhist symbol associated with lions and deer. The flag you get in SS and VW is based on the Banner of Victory, a flag used to symbolize Buddha not falling to the temptation Mara's daughters and obtaining Nirvana as a result. That flag is, according to the creators in the Nintendo Dream interview released just after the DLC came out, the game's Fire Emblem, not the Crest of Flames that is possessed by Byleth, Edelgard and Nemesis.

 

In Japan, Crimson Flower is called Safflower. It's a very specific flower. Unlike the red rose mentioned in Edge of Dawn, which simply means love, a safflower means attraction. You find something attractive, and when you use it in a bouquet you're saying "I'm trying to catch you/good luck (usually with regards to marriage)." There's a difference between love and attraction, especially when the game is using the aforementioned symbol of the Banner of Victory.

 

The devs admitted they expected players to pick the Black Eagles first (and they believed most players would only play one route), and they also wanted to play a trick on the player. When joining Edelgard was too hard and the test players couldn't do it, they made accessing Safflower easier. This is in spite of them saying they wanted players to immerse themselves in Fodlan, and that Fodlan was built to support Silver Snow's story. Take all this into account and it paints a picture of Safflower, the route which ends with Byleth losing their Enlightened One status, as the route of ignorance. If Byleth actually fights Dimitri in the penultimate stage, he will call them out on walking down the path of the savage beast or something. The path of the beast in Buddhism refers to acting in greed, hatred or ignorance, the antithesis of Nirvana.

 

Safflower is the game tricking the player into siding the villain.

 

The devs also said in that interview that Safflower supposed to lead to what is known as Hadou, in contrast to Azure Moon leading to Oudou. This is based on China's Mandate of Heaven. Under the Mandate, the ruler is believed to have been given the privilege to rule by the Heavens and must act accordingly. They must put the people first, not rule in their own self-interests and instead rule benevolently. If they do so, the land will prosper. This is Oudou, and part of Oudou is overthrowing rulers who have fallen into Hadou. Hadou is a state where the rulers don't act in the interests of the people, are willing to sacrifice the people in order to get what they want, and enforce their rule through either political or military strength. They're rulers who lead with absolute power. The people are supposed to rise up against Hadou, rebelling against those rulers and overthrowing them is considered an act of justice.

 

Hubert's endings point to hadou, even in the English version there's confirmation of rebellions he's putting down from the shadows. Edelgard's endings also show her banning a play she hasn't seen, and in the Japanese she doesn't create a "free and independent" society. She creates one where the people are pushed to be self-reliant in spite of her whole "when people support each other we don't need gods" line in CF's final cutscene. Her pose in the painting at the end of the route is a direct reference to Napoleon's coronation portrait. complete with inverted Hand of Justice as she stomps over the flags of those she's conquered. The idea she's trying to become Fodlan's supreme ruler is also highlighed in the last chapter of White Clouds before going to Safflower, "Onset of a Battle for Supremacy" rather than power struggle, as well as her personal battalion. Her being referred to a Hegemon in Byleth's CF title, her Hegemon Husk form and Claude's comments to Hubert in Japanese VW (It's not "Your military rule ends here" like in the English dub), all signify this. Likewise, exploration dialogue also pushes that the army in Safflower are really keen on Edelgard unifying the continent under her rule, that she's starving her people to support her army, using Crest Beasts and that the people were against this war. She even takes control of the Church as revealed by a couple of endings.

 

Tying to the fact Safflower is supposed to be the route of ignorance, Edelgard is depicted more as a manipulator. Not only does she lie about Arianrhod, her story is contradicted all over the place. It's not meant to hold water either, as Silver Snow was the route the worldbuilding was done to support. As the player invests in understanding Fodlan, this should become clear. Safflower shows that Edelgard is a liar, a genocidal one considering her saying "Rhea and the Children of the Goddess need to be obliterated" in private right before offering Rhea the chance to surrender. A line in the Japanese confirming that Edelgard is manipulating TWSITD in Safflower was changed to them manipulating her, while the NPC talking about unrest in the Empire has the line about how this is calming down due to Edelgard's "information campaign" was cut entirely. Just that one sentence, the rest of the line is still in the English dub.

 

Edelgard;s voice acting sounds more harsh and mature than her Japanese counterpart, which kinda ruins the effect. We're meant to be taken off guard by what she's doing and saying, not by her cutesy moments. Similarily, Rhea's VA was told to act unemotional with a burning rage under the surface, compared to how her Japanese counterpart sounds like she's breaking down as you progress through Safflower.

 

There's other changes to the script. Dorothea doesn't sound as desperate in the English version, and we had Bernie tied to a chair by her father before that was changed to something more accurate to the Japanese script (which caused people to cry censorship). During the Holy Tomb in Japanese Verdant Wind, Edelgard makes it clear she intends to use the Creststones not destroy them. Also, Claude admits he doesn't like her in Japanese. Ferdinand fighting Hubert outside of Safflower went from "I will remove her from power, even if I have to lay down my life to do so" to "It doesn't matter what I think, I have my orders." Hanneman's description to Dorothea about what the nobility was originally supposed to be went from "people with knowledge who seek more knowledge, while guiding and protecting their people" to "the nobility was supposed to be a meritocracy."

 

The English script downplays the subtext, and alters lines to make Edelgard seem softer than she was intended. The game wasn't meant to be some morally grey "everyone's a hero in their own story, it's all a matter of perspective" sort of deal. Edelgard is meant to be the villain even when you side with her. She's supposed to be so stubborn that she doesn't get character growth, if anything joining her is meant to make characters into worse people (comparing lines between routes), and is supposed to be the same in Safflower as she is in the other routes. When she tells you the story, it's not the truth. It's just what someone who is a demonstrable liar is saying is the truth. She's supposed to be immature and genocidal. She's not supposed to be the good guy.

 

Edelgard's most die hard fans hate this. It tells them that they were wrong, that they didn't understand the game, stories or characters. Dimitri, Claude and Rhea are all made out to be good guys, while Edelgard is singled out as the bad one contrary to what Crimson Flower said. Edelgard isn't the sad, innocent victim they wanted her to be, nor is the world she's fighting for one we should support. Siding with Edelgard isn't about free will, it's about Byleth being led astray. You get the idea. This is why they keep claiming "death of the author" to erase canon and instead replace it with their own fanfics, sorry, analysis. Stuff Edelgard does in canon, they argue she doesn't. Dimitri's mental illness is erased, instead his arc is about overcoming toxic masculinity...and he's still not a good guy because he's crazy and will pass on his craziness to his children. Claude's arc isn't about him learning to trust people, he's just using them and is the real Imperialist. Etc.


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#3311 DattebayoXShannaro

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Posted 11 November 2021 - 03:26 AM

 

Okay, first off the game uses Buddhist symbolism. Your avatar's personal class of Enlightened One? That's called Nirvana in Japan, which is supposed to be a state where someone extinguishes the three flames/poisons of greed, hatred and ignorance that plague humanity. The empty throne we see on the title screen, that's a Buddhist symbol associated with lions and deer. The flag you get in SS and VW is based on the Banner of Victory, a flag used to symbolize Buddha not falling to the temptation Mara's daughters and obtaining Nirvana as a result. That flag is, according to the creators in the Nintendo Dream interview released just after the DLC came out, the game's Fire Emblem, not the Crest of Flames that is possessed by Byleth, Edelgard and Nemesis.

 

In Japan, Crimson Flower is called Safflower. It's a very specific flower. Unlike the red rose mentioned in Edge of Dawn, which simply means love, a safflower means attraction. You find something attractive, and when you use it in a bouquet you're saying "I'm trying to catch you/good luck (usually with regards to marriage)." There's a difference between love and attraction, especially when the game is using the aforementioned symbol of the Banner of Victory.

 

The devs admitted they expected players to pick the Black Eagles first (and they believed most players would only play one route), and they also wanted to play a trick on the player. When joining Edelgard was too hard and the test players couldn't do it, they made accessing Safflower easier. This is in spite of them saying they wanted players to immerse themselves in Fodlan, and that Fodlan was built to support Silver Snow's story. Take all this into account and it paints a picture of Safflower, the route which ends with Byleth losing their Enlightened One status, as the route of ignorance. If Byleth actually fights Dimitri in the penultimate stage, he will call them out on walking down the path of the savage beast or something. The path of the beast in Buddhism refers to acting in greed, hatred or ignorance, the antithesis of Nirvana.

 

Safflower is the game tricking the player into siding the villain.

 

The devs also said in that interview that Safflower supposed to lead to what is known as Hadou, in contrast to Azure Moon leading to Oudou. This is based on China's Mandate of Heaven. Under the Mandate, the ruler is believed to have been given the privilege to rule by the Heavens and must act accordingly. They must put the people first, not rule in their own self-interests and instead rule benevolently. If they do so, the land will prosper. This is Oudou, and part of Oudou is overthrowing rulers who have fallen into Hadou. Hadou is a state where the rulers don't act in the interests of the people, are willing to sacrifice the people in order to get what they want, and enforce their rule through either political or military strength. They're rulers who lead with absolute power. The people are supposed to rise up against Hadou, rebelling against those rulers and overthrowing them is considered an act of justice.

 

Hubert's endings point to hadou, even in the English version there's confirmation of rebellions he's putting down from the shadows. Edelgard's endings also show her banning a play she hasn't seen, and in the Japanese she doesn't create a "free and independent" society. She creates one where the people are pushed to be self-reliant in spite of her whole "when people support each other we don't need gods" line in CF's final cutscene. Her pose in the painting at the end of the route is a direct reference to Napoleon's coronation portrait. complete with inverted Hand of Justice as she stomps over the flags of those she's conquered. The idea she's trying to become Fodlan's supreme ruler is also highlighed in the last chapter of White Clouds before going to Safflower, "Onset of a Battle for Supremacy" rather than power struggle, as well as her personal battalion. Her being referred to a Hegemon in Byleth's CF title, her Hegemon Husk form and Claude's comments to Hubert in Japanese VW (It's not "Your military rule ends here" like in the English dub), all signify this. Likewise, exploration dialogue also pushes that the army in Safflower are really keen on Edelgard unifying the continent under her rule, that she's starving her people to support her army, using Crest Beasts and that the people were against this war. She even takes control of the Church as revealed by a couple of endings.

 

Tying to the fact Safflower is supposed to be the route of ignorance, Edelgard is depicted more as a manipulator. Not only does she lie about Arianrhod, her story is contradicted all over the place. It's not meant to hold water either, as Silver Snow was the route the worldbuilding was done to support. As the player invests in understanding Fodlan, this should become clear. Safflower shows that Edelgard is a liar, a genocidal one considering her saying "Rhea and the Children of the Goddess need to be obliterated" in private right before offering Rhea the chance to surrender. A line in the Japanese confirming that Edelgard is manipulating TWSITD in Safflower was changed to them manipulating her, while the NPC talking about unrest in the Empire has the line about how this is calming down due to Edelgard's "information campaign" was cut entirely. Just that one sentence, the rest of the line is still in the English dub.

 

Edelgard;s voice acting sounds more harsh and mature than her Japanese counterpart, which kinda ruins the effect. We're meant to be taken off guard by what she's doing and saying, not by her cutesy moments. Similarily, Rhea's VA was told to act unemotional with a burning rage under the surface, compared to how her Japanese counterpart sounds like she's breaking down as you progress through Safflower.

 

There's other changes to the script. Dorothea doesn't sound as desperate in the English version, and we had Bernie tied to a chair by her father before that was changed to something more accurate to the Japanese script (which caused people to cry censorship). During the Holy Tomb in Japanese Verdant Wind, Edelgard makes it clear she intends to use the Creststones not destroy them. Also, Claude admits he doesn't like her in Japanese. Ferdinand fighting Hubert outside of Safflower went from "I will remove her from power, even if I have to lay down my life to do so" to "It doesn't matter what I think, I have my orders." Hanneman's description to Dorothea about what the nobility was originally supposed to be went from "people with knowledge who seek more knowledge, while guiding and protecting their people" to "the nobility was supposed to be a meritocracy."

 

The English script downplays the subtext, and alters lines to make Edelgard seem softer than she was intended. The game wasn't meant to be some morally grey "everyone's a hero in their own story, it's all a matter of perspective" sort of deal. Edelgard is meant to be the villain even when you side with her. She's supposed to be so stubborn that she doesn't get character growth, if anything joining her is meant to make characters into worse people (comparing lines between routes), and is supposed to be the same in Safflower as she is in the other routes. When she tells you the story, it's not the truth. It's just what someone who is a demonstrable liar is saying is the truth. She's supposed to be immature and genocidal. She's not supposed to be the good guy.

 

Edelgard's most die hard fans hate this. It tells them that they were wrong, that they didn't understand the game, stories or characters. Dimitri, Claude and Rhea are all made out to be good guys, while Edelgard is singled out as the bad one contrary to what Crimson Flower said. Edelgard isn't the sad, innocent victim they wanted her to be, nor is the world she's fighting for one we should support. Siding with Edelgard isn't about free will, it's about Byleth being led astray. You get the idea. This is why they keep claiming "death of the author" to erase canon and instead replace it with their own fanfics, sorry, analysis. Stuff Edelgard does in canon, they argue she doesn't. Dimitri's mental illness is erased, instead his arc is about overcoming toxic masculinity...and he's still not a good guy because he's crazy and will pass on his craziness to his children. Claude's arc isn't about him learning to trust people, he's just using them and is the real Imperialist. Etc.

Wow, thanks, I know that must have took a while to write.  This reminds me of what happened to the localization of Bravely Second, where news came out they were editing the bad endings in the game to make them not as dark.  It's a really interesting discussion of whether it's a localization's group job to do that.  While there are cultural differences to account for, is it justified when it means changing the original meaning of the work.  I can't get over Pokemon the movie 2000, where in the Japanese version the moral was that anyone can be a hero, while in the 4kids dub, it's the exact opposite.



#3312 RulesofNature

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Posted 12 November 2021 - 01:01 AM

Wow, thanks, I know that must have took a while to write.  This reminds me of what happened to the localization of Bravely Second, where news came out they were editing the bad endings in the game to make them not as dark.  It's a really interesting discussion of whether it's a localization's group job to do that.  While there are cultural differences to account for, is it justified when it means changing the original meaning of the work.  I can't get over Pokemon the movie 2000, where in the Japanese version the moral was that anyone can be a hero, while in the 4kids dub, it's the exact opposite.

 

That's only the stuff with the localization, mind you. The subtext and symbolism serves to identify Edelgard as a villain and her words to be false. If you don't get that, then we run into what has happened.

 

There's a lot the game never outright confirms, but it gives you information you're supposed to piece together. Like Edelgard's claims that her father was a student at the monastery where he met her mother. Seems like an innocent claim, until you remember that month a student during exploration (in the same room as Edelgard to boot) said it was a story that happened long ago. 20 years doesn't seem like long ago to me. What's more early game NPCs say that an Imperial heir hasn't attended in a long time, and late game a Crimson Flower NPC explains the Empire abolished it's sect of the Church over a century ago when the Southern Sect caused uprisings against the Emperor. So, the information makes it very unlikely that Edelgard's story is legitimate, but the game never outright confirms it.

 

There is a lot of stuff like this, but people take Edelgard at her word. Some claim that she's the one telling the truth while the rest of the game lies to the player (ignoring the worldbuilding was done for Silver Snow), others claim that the information learned in other routes isn't canon to Crimson Flower, or that it's up to the player to decide what the truth actually is and this game is all about perspectives. Or people try saying that Edelgard may have bad info, but that's not her fault and doesn't mean she's the villain when she's acting on it. Some guys even talk about how they hate hearing about stuff from other routes because...well, I've seen it man. People who played Crimson Flower first, thought Edelgard was right and then changed their minds as they learned more. I have a few friends who have experienced that, one is even still a big fan of Edelgard despite it because she likes the character. I'm in the same boat, as I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and while Crimson Flower made me despise her as a person I still like her as a character in the story,

 

We get called haters for this. And after the Nintendo Dream interview was translated, by someone who had an Edelgard bias and said the devs were careful to not make her appear as the bad guy, someone on the Edelgard subreddit admitted it was clear she's the villain. When asked why, another poster stepped up and claimed that they were brainwashed by the fandom.

 

(exhales) The game has a lot of text, as it's the main way for players to understand the world around them. You don't get to explore Fodlan, you get to hear about it at the monastery. What's more, the game expects the players to talk to NPCs, read the books, remember what they said and then use that to piece together the bigger picture. Just following the story cutscenes isn't going to do that. Likewise, some pieces of information are locked to certain routes, requiring certain characters being recruited or certain paired endings (that can change due to route). All the information to suggest Edelgard is a lying tyrant is still in the game, even some of the stuff changed can be attributed to the fact it's hinted at the Empire censors history following the war (Byleth's solo ending is important for this). If anything, saying she creates a "free and independent society" while at the same time having endings that show Edelgard's Fodlan requiring secret police to spy on the people and put down rebellions, in addition to needing magic pilfered from the evil TWSITD to maintain order, only serves to make her more of a liar and a hypocrite. So. why the issue?

 

People believe that the game is about trusting Edelgard. Again they believe she's the one telling the truth, even when her own retainer contradicts her. That she's only supposed to appear to be the villain, but by playing Crimson Flower the player will see her (along with Rhea, Claude and Dimitri) for who she really is. It is through this she is objectified, stripping away all her own agency and even character to instead present her as this sacred little girl who is being forced to do these horrible things she doesn't want to. There's actually a "theory" that states Edelgard wasn't trying to assassinate her classmates in the game's prologue but instead scare away the teacher so that Jeritza could be promoted for some reason. TV tropes rejected it on the game's Alternative Character Interpretation page because of how easily debunked it is (it's based on one line by Caspar), but a lot of people still take it as canon and act demeaning to people who, you know, say that Edelgard put a hit out on her classmates.

 

The guy who made that theory also created the "Edelgard has PSTD" interpretation, where he talked about her case is just like his own. There's parts of it where he overblows things, as he's made it very clear he projects onto her. Literally admitted it. He also is the one who created "Dimitri doesn't have mental illness in the Japanese, he's just throwing off his country's toxic culture" when he misunderstood how Japanese pronouns work and thought Dimitri was meant to be secretly rude instead of him accidentally being too casual with his new teacher. The guy has created many, many of these takes and they get passed around, people building upon them in their own takes. There is a legitimate list of these, along with the guys fanfic, which is presented as essential reading to understanding the game and the characters. That this guy knows Edelgard and the rest better...than the game's own writers. That the words of the creators can just be tossed aside, since they're just the "opinions" of the creators and they don't have political degrees or anything so their "opinions" are wrong. Or they try to claim "death of the author" mistakenly in the belief it means the game can say whatever they want it to say.

 

Fanon is being held in higher regard than canon. That fanfic is being presented as essential reading on the game, and I've seen people read it first, play Crimson Flower and go "WTF, Edelgard is nothing like she was in the fanfic." People play the game and are left thinking something is wrong with them because they don't see things the way this part of the fandom does. There was a big FE youtuber recently who did analysis of Edelgard, took it down after people complained, and then reuploaded it complete with false information from the Edelgard subreddit. Anyone who criticizes Edelgard is seen as either a Dimitri or Rhea stan, even when they're huge Claude fans. Artists have been bullied into taking down their Rhea fanart, people have been pushed out of fandom hubs because of how hostile they are, even guys who don't tag Three Houses in their tumblr posts get people flooding their inboxes or insulting them for speaking out against Edelgard. Edelgard's various wiki or TV tropes pages are monitored by these guys, including one mega toxic kitten banned from the main subreddit, and when they aren't doing stuff like trying to put the Teacher theory onto her character page try to put as much information supporting her as they can onto them. Like, Mega toxic kitten removed stuff about hadou even when it's source was properly cited while in an edit war when he was trying to defend a massive "personality" section that was in Edelgard's favor.

 

That is how toxic the Fire Emblem fandom is. There is a real desperation in some corners in order to defend Edelgard and Crimson Flower that leads to flat out denial. Then there's the people who are just kittening sick of it all. Part of the reason people are hoping for something new to be announced soon is because they want to move on from all this. I legitimately know people who miss the Fates discourse because it was nowhere near as bad as this. I had to remind myself why I like the series by playing the GBA games.

 

Honestly, it makes me glad I wasn't involved in the actual Naruto fandom back in it's heyday. I avoided all the shipping drama or the parts of the story being twisted by fanfics, I was able to see Naruto mostly for what it was. Both it's good moments, and it's massive decline later on. Being a casual fan has it's perks ladies and gentlemen.

 

Sacred Stones is the best Fire Emblem game. Fight me.


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#3313 RulesofNature

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Posted 12 November 2021 - 01:41 AM

Anyway, let's get things back on track.

 

I feel that with a lot of modern audiences, there's a big pushback against the idea of canon. I've seen it with Disney Star Wars and it's EU, where writers talked about how canon only holds them back from telling the stories they want to tell. Gundam Thunderbolt got Banrise's blessing to ignore canon and do it's own thing, but at the same time is also not considered part of the official Universal Century timeline going by a recent announcement that laid it out. Canon only serves a debilitating limit to some people.

 

I feel like having a limit though, that's not a problem. It's like the whole issue with magic or superpowers, if you can do anything with them then there's no tension. Like, one of my favorite manga Dungeon Meshi had limitations to it's magic early on which was reflected in how it's magic user reacted in situations. It helped sell the world, and the less limited magic that came in later is treated both as something to be coveted...and the cheese in the mouse trap as it were. Even Naruto got this right early on before it went full DBZ and Sasuke pulling snakes out of thin air.

 

Likewise, adhering to canon also makes things coherent within the setting.

 

The whole "canon bad" thing feels more like an excuse to be low effort to me. Low effort on behalf of the creators, and low effort on behalf of fans having to defend the story. Because retcons aren't simply adding new information and therefore aren't bad storytelling like someone on here once claimed, it's devaluing the story up until that point when the writer fails add that information properly.


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#3314 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 01:14 AM

Anyway, let's get things back on track.

 

I feel that with a lot of modern audiences, there's a big pushback against the idea of canon. I've seen it with Disney Star Wars and it's EU, where writers talked about how canon only holds them back from telling the stories they want to tell. Gundam Thunderbolt got Banrise's blessing to ignore canon and do it's own thing, but at the same time is also not considered part of the official Universal Century timeline going by a recent announcement that laid it out. Canon only serves a debilitating limit to some people.

Yet with Boruto and Naruto now, they want to rewrite the official canon and say that their canon is the true canon and not what the original writer intended which is a double standard coming from people who also say "you need to accept the canon for what it is."

I think this also has a negative effect on stories because by changing the canon to suit what you want and ignore what you hate, you are basically telling fans that nothing is concrete and anything and everything can and will be changed. If they want to play this loose, why should the fans hold anything credible then? I think this is why many call the new Star Wars "Disney Star Wars" because they rewrote the canon. 
 

I feel like having a limit though, that's not a problem. It's like the whole issue with magic or superpowers, if you can do anything with them then there's no tension. Like, one of my favorite manga Dungeon Meshi had limitations to it's magic early on which was reflected in how it's magic user reacted in situations. It helped sell the world, and the less limited magic that came in later is treated both as something to be coveted...and the cheese in the mouse trap as it were. Even Naruto got this right early on before it went full DBZ and Sasuke pulling snakes out of thin air.

 

It really depends on what we are talking about. Rewriting a singular driven story because you feel it is "too limiting" is trying to expand a story when it doesn't need it. Take a simple story like Romeo and Juliet. Should I call the story "too limiting" because I can't write a story about Mercutio? Sure he played an interesting part and a role, but there was not much for his story to be there. He played his role, it contributed, and now it ends. Why do I need to keep expanding upon it? What would it add? 

Star Wars, however, is a whole universe to explore. Side stories, past histories, ancient ways that could have shown how the whole Force came to be or whatever....and what do they do? "Let's just make a sequel of the original series and just rebrand everything because we want OUR fictional self-insert Mary Sue to be more powerful than the most powerful Jedi family in the galaxy." Like why? The Mandalorian was able to expand the history without stepping on the toes of the original....there was no limitation there. 

Why when given all the freedom to a franchise do the first thing they want to change is the core mechanics of a story? That is completely unnecessary. They don't even do it ina  clever way either...they used the most cliche tropes ever. Taking a good idea and making it worse. 

Dragonball Super pisses me off with this too. You have MULTIPLE universes to play with and you reduce it down narratively to a city block while constantly telling us "See this new bad guy X? He is the most powerful. No nevermind...bad guy Y is the most powerful. No wait...now bad guy Z is the most powerful." Like, when does it end? And worse the fans eat it up...before Goku even fought Jiren, fans were already wondering who the next bad guy was and how much stronger was Goku going to get. It is the most lowest common denominator story telling I have ever seen. 

It is not compelling...it is just the same kitten over and over...and if you like that that is fine, but holy hell is it not that deep thinking.

As for unlimited powers...well, there are always ways to create tension.
Do you remember this?


Imagine having unlimited strength and you have to understand that...one wrong step and you could shatter the earth. One breath could make a hurricane or even take out a solar system. You could exhibit so much force, that even mundane things that you take for granted are a complete caution of control.

People forget this about Superman.

One-Punch Man also has a conversation about this between King and Saitama.


What happens when you reach Max Level in a VG? You challenge yourself in otherways like maybe wearing only certain armors or using certain weapons. Maybe you can even try for 100% completion. Tension can still be made with characters with unlimited power...l

Likewise, a characters that loses all the time because they are never powerful enough is pretty boring and you have to wonder..."how do they keep surviving?" Batman has no powers and yet people believe he can fight off cosmic level entities. How?

There are rights ways and there are wrong way and I think writers have lost that creativity.


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#3315 RulesofNature

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 02:06 AM

I don't think it's a matter of them losing that creativity, I think it's just a matter of business. If it sells, there will be imitators. That has been true for a long time and will continue to be true until further notice. Like, look at My Next Life as a Villainess: All Routes Lead to Doom. It was a parody of a subgenre of Isekai, but it got an anime adaptation, has a movie coming out and even getting it's own otome game. Now when I type in Villainess into Amazon, I get a bunch of similar series popping up because Hamefura's success has publishers looking for their own version to sell.

 

But you sometimes get a Moorcock. Michael Moorcock is a very influencial fantasy writer, even if you have never heard of him. When he was told to make a Conan-clone, he instead created Elric of Melnibone as a subversion of that type of story and in the process created dark fantasy. You've probably never read anything by him, but you've no doubt read stuff inspired by him. Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman and GRRM are all confirmed fans of Moorcock though Moorcock's works don't have the same impact they used to due to how much has been borrowed from him.

 

There are always going to be Moorcock's out there. People who want to write the stories they want, and will put in the time and care to create something new. Or they'll put in the effort to at least create great stories (like All Star Superman) even if they aren't treading on new ground. Like anything, it's always a matter of finding those with actual stories to tell.

 

Naruto, since it's inception, has always been editorially mandated in order to make it as big as it could. Right from the beginning, it was never Kishi's story to tell, it was the story he was told to create. I mean, look at what Moorcock did when he was told to create something "like Conan." Kishi never would have done that, he just made something to peddle to the masses. And there's a lot of Kishi's out there. Some may think they're being smart, but they're just Kishi.

 

(for the record, this was the first Elric story Moorcock created, if you have an hour and want to see what I mean.)

https://www.youtube....h?v=s90TFH6JC9I


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#3316 James S Cassidy

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 02:46 AM

I don't think it's a matter of them losing that creativity, I think it's just a matter of business. 

No offense, but this argument loses all meaning when it doesn't even feel like it does and frankly I am sick of hearing it because if this were REALLY true...then half the stuff that has been going on would stop being produced.

Okay...say we make a product or a story like Item A. Now Item A is very popular and people love it so they create Item B. Item B is hated by most of the original fanbase and they leave. Not to say Item B doesn't make some kind of income, but it is nowhere near the money maker compared to Item A.

So if it is all about making money and making as money as possible...then WHY continue to make Item B instead of making Item A? That's like going to company and saying "Would you rather make $1,000,000, but put in effort or make $1,000 and put in minimum effort? They both can be repeated over and over to make the same amount.....and the company chooses the $1,000 options because....?

It makes no sense what so ever. Sure, I guess the production cost would go down, but any good business practice knows that to make money you have to put in effort. Worse still these companies will whine "why won't you buy item B?" If told why, they cry more and go "You're just a bigot." The logic is just so dumb and it gets even worse when Item A takes a slight dip in sales and they want to discontinue it, but Item B can lose 90% of its revenue and they believe they can still save it? What the hell? 

Now we can argue that Item B makes money, but I wonder is it only making money BECAUSE it is the only thing available? 

I think Nostalgia Critic said it best
"Dr. Seuss got popular because of what he wanted to see, not what focus groups wanted to see. Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe people don't know what is best for them and by continually giving them the same crap they'll never know what's different so they will keep asking for the same crap?"

Sometimes I feel like I am the only one who thinks outside this box. 

It is like I don't know...making a cool Batman comic and continuing that pattern and then making another superhero LIKE Batman....only they didn't stop making Batman because they felt Daredevil was better. 

And yes, I have heard of Michael Moorcock. Some may argue he is the father of the genre cyberpunk as well.


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#3317 BlueStarSaber

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Posted 21 November 2021 - 09:52 PM

So apprantly sadara is a chunin in the anime now

#3318 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 01:19 AM

So, apparently sadara is a chunin in the anime now

...Oh right, the second chunin exam filler arc, which I guess they did to show how much better theirs would be over kishi's. Surprise she wasn't one already, she did well in the last exam, and also not like it matters because she is completely irrelevant to the story. I don't think she has ever been that important to the story at any point, of course not counting her gaiden, and she has never been as relevant to the story of Boruto as Sakura was at any point in Naruto. Which is surprising since she wants to be the next Hokage, the one Bolt wants to support as the third Danzo, and she is the only child of Sasuke. Then again, she is Sakura's daughter.



#3319 Phantom_999

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Posted 22 November 2021 - 12:32 PM

Well Ikemoto personifying his fetishes on her character design aside, she has a good head on her shoulders so congrats on her being Chunin at least. still it doesn't do her enough justice that she is sidelined  other than this instance since she wants to be Hokage next


Edited by Phantom_999, 22 November 2021 - 12:33 PM.

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