86 replies to this topic

[surlymoogle]

Er, that was a typo. The vast majority DON'T feature at least one female.

Bear in mind your calculated vast majority doesn't include that beloved staple of Naruto fanfiction, either--the dreaded Main OC. Most of these are female, just like they are in HP fandom.

Anyway, it doesn't look like the girls are faring all that poorly, considering how vastly outnumbered they are by male characters. Sakura's got 209 pages of fic in which she's denoted as a major player, compared to Naruto's 268 and Everybody Loves Sasuke's 292. Jeez, even little Hanabi Hyuuga's got four pages.

But, hey, we're not actually determining what gender gets the most fic time here, anyway. Taking a glance at the first page of the section, the random stats appear to be:

9 - Fics starring one or more OC (2 of which feature GaaraxOC)
7 - Het fics (a variety of pairings)
4 - Genfics (no pairing)
4 - Yaoi/shounen-ai fics (all NaruSasu)
1 - "Naruto is raped by vicious older shinobi" fic

What's to be learned from this? OCs are all over the damn place. (And most people should be banned from writing rape fic, because they just can't pull it off.)

Certainly not every page follows this same template, but the fact is, you can't just assume that because 1043 pages of fic have no female character categorized as a lead, that they must ALL be yaoi. There are clearly more variables to be considered.

Yes, but we're talking about reputations, here -- perception, not reality. Which means you have to go through the biggest source of that perception -- ff.net.

FF.net is perceived as a complete joke everywhere I hang out online (except for NarutoFan, which I've been stringently avoiding for my sanity's sake.) I believe it was some subset of the Harry Potter fandom that took to calling it "the Pit of Voles" once they mass-exodused to FictionAlley.

Frankly, I don't care much about the opinion of those who cry "FF.NET IS DROWNING IN YAOI!" as most of those people were against yaoi in the first place. Of course it's out to get them, that's how they perceive things. Likewise, I perceive the Hinatards are out to get me because I can't stand them and yet constantly run into them, so I try my hardest to antagonize them. :devil: Errr...that is...

Meh, our experiences are different -- most of those fics I found off of LJ communities were horrendously bad, worse then even sorting out the good fics from the dross in ff.net. But I haven't followed LJ communities in a long time, so I admit that may have changed.

The high-volume comms are still pretty unreliable (say, ones like fma_het, that are kind of a dumping ground for every pairing out there.) Whereas if I visit a comm specifically devoted to a crackpairing I like, I'm bound to at least find one or two things on the front page that I end up liking, or that at least are worth passing the time with. Eh, it's a crapshoot as always, but it beats FF.net by a long shot.

I'll note I've found more good IN character het fics for Naruto then I have well written yaoi fics, regardless of how in character or out of character they are... but then, I'm probably looking in different areas then you are.

Yes, I imagine the difference would be that I specifically seek out yaoi fics and tend to stumble across most of the het ones. It sounds like you're the opposite?

Hm... except, to make the characters 'accept' the yaoi pairing, the writers tend to bend the character more then they do for het pairings. It's more a case of the typical yaoi author is more likely to try and put two characters together without caring about what those characters, themselves, would feel about it, rather then

Yeah, but who knows definitively how most of them would feel aside from Kishimoto and staff? We've never gotten particularly introspective looks at a lot of these characters. We don't even know for sure if Sakura still has a crush on Sasuke, or if Naruto's feelings toward Sakura have cooled. It's mostly guesswork as far as I'm concerned.

As for authors applying their own thought process to a character's personality to "bend" them...please, this is in no way exclusive to the domain of yaoi writers. A friend of mine is terrible at this, and she writes original fiction. Once upon a time, all her characters had pretty distinct personalities. Over time, they all began to resemble her more and more; they'd always react as she would to certain situations, say the same things, etc. It's bad writing, plain and simple.

It's far easier for me to swallow the concept of Sasuke/Naruto than, say, Naruto/Hinata. The latter requires an even more extreme bending of Naruto's character. Naruto barely notices Hinata's presence in the first place, so for him to plausibly fall in love with her takes a substantial effort on the writer's behalf; oh, yeah, and he still likes Sakura anyway, or we're pretty sure he does. At least Sasuke and Naruto have an established, fairly intense relationship, even if it is mostly antagonistic. (Classic fodder.)

And remember, we aren't talking the 'best' here, we're talking the 'average.' The sheer number of people who can PULL OFF good yaoi fanfics just aren't there. A good yaoi fanfic can be good -- that is not the question -- it's whether most of the writers are good at it.

I remember trying to write a yaoi fic sometime in high school (right after I got into it), and I had no idea where to begin, because of my severely limited concept of "how this boy/boy thing is supposed to work." I imagine a lot of the crappy yaoi authors have the same problem but go ahead and write it anyway, without bothering to, I don't know, research anything? Or they write it as they would a het fic, only with two males, so you tend to have a somewhat in-character seme and a totally emasculated and OOC uke. And then they employ the het-fic cliches, which are bad enough in actual het fics, but totally absurd in yaoi.

But again, a lot of people just can't pull off fanfic, period.

Plus, repetition of a theme tends to weaken the quality, and there are only so many ways to make two obviously het characters (like, say, Naruto and Jiraiya, who often are found in yaoi pairings) become yaoi before you start beating a dead horse in a theme... and the Naruto fandom beat that dead horse to dust years ago.

Kind of like how het fics beat certain plot devices to death (Canon Sues, "dear diary" fics, high school fics, rape-as-a-catalyst-for-romance, etc...my brain hurts just going there)? How about the Naruto-specific plot devices like "Sakura decides to fix up Naruto and Hinata because she honestly gives a kitten about Hinata--no, really?"

Fanfic writers beat everything to death. They've been doing it forever. The bloody Biblical Apocrypha are technically fanfic; it's not like we're new to this pastime. I don't see why the yaoi authors always have to be vilified as the Snidely Whiplashes of characterization when het and gen authors are equally guilty of their own rampant bastardization.

I'll agree with you on Jiraiya, though. Dammit, the man is straight. Nobody acts that horny just for the sake of appearing hetero.

Um, wrong. MOST fanfic writers are male (Unless you mean Naruto in particular, in which case you may be right). By far. Animerica did a study on it a while ago (I'll see if I can find the article, and if so I'll post the exact reference, and it is admittedly a couple years old... but, at the time, the proportion of yaoi to yuri was MUCH higher then it is even now) and found almost four out of ever five fanfic writers was male.

LOL. Yes, by all means, I'd love to see this no doubt scientifically accurate study sponsored by Animerica. I'm guessing they polled their readership and the majority of respondents were male. I'd be willing to wager the readership of the publication itself is probably mostly male (as is probably the case with ALL anime-related periodicals, except Shoujo Beat, of course).

I've read primarily romance fics since I first stumbled across the very concept of fanfic in 1997. I assure you, that particular genre not only gets more action than any other, but it's female-dominated. By far. Unless most of the authors I've read/reviewed/chatted with in all these fandoms over the years were actually guys going by feminine pen names and claiming to be girls. (You never know, these days. )

Yeah, but I've never seen yuri dominate a fandom the way yaoi does, save perhaps in the above example someone mentioned of Utena (where it is, indeed, canon), even in series where the writers are definitely more male then female (like, say, Slayers). I've been into the anime fandom and fanfiction in general for more then a decade, now, and I've NEVER seen such a dominating force as what yaoi presents, in terms of fanfiction, versus yuri.

So...since I'm totally off the mark, why then, in your opinion or best guess, is yaoi such an overpowering force whereas yuri's sort of a blip on the radar in most fandoms?

You claim to not care for yaoi in the first place, so I'm not sure you understand the perspective of the "typical yaoi fangirl." (Because most of them are fangirls, indeed.) You can appreciate a yaoi fic on its technical merits, but you're not "in it (i.e., the fandom) for the yaoi."

I got into two fandoms (Saiyuki and Weiss Kreuz) BECAUSE of the yaoi potential. (Both of these series feature a main cast of four guys who spend most of their time together, often fighting with each other, and very few females are involved in either story.) I kept watching GetBackers because I thought Ban and Ginji's relationship was damned cute. I keep reading Tsubasa, even though the story keeps losing me, because I love watching Fai tease the hell out of Kurogane. Where there is antagonism between male characters, there is yaoi fodder. (Hello, SasuNaru.) Similarly, where there is bantering and teasing between male characters (rarer), there is yaoi fodder. Yaoi fangirls will see subtext EVERYWHERE (and more often than not, proclaim it as supertext.)

And then I go to the LJ comms and fic sites for recs. Bear in mind here I'm generally not looking for high art. I'm looking for something with proper, non-distracting spelling and grammar, some kind of enjoyable repartee between the characters, and...well...yeah. In most instances, I'm looking for the pr0n. Plot? What plot?

I'm not saying "every yaoi fangirl is like me," because it's totally not true, but A LOT of them are. Again, I've deduced this from fellow posters in the comms where I lurk, or even on more general-interest forums that have little to do with anime at all (where it becomes slash--House MD and Pirates are currently really popular in that area). When they ask around for fanfic recs, they're looking for PR0N. A lot of the anime fans like Naruto in particular because it's "so gay"--yes, someone actually said that.

One of my (girl) best friends doesn't like yaoi at all--doesn't get the appeal, finds it kind of distasteful because of the relatively conservative way she was raised. One time I tried explaining to her (in the cafeteria at IKEA, no less ) why I liked it so much. "You know how most guys think two girls together is hot?" I asked over my meatballs. "Well, it's kind of like, why have one hot guy when you can have two?"

Her eyebrows raised. "Oh," she said, nodding. "Yeah, I guess that makes sense."

(I should add that I'm not in Naruto for the yaoi. Believe it or not, I'm in it for the characters, because they really are engrossing little buggers and I want to see what happens to them. Sure, I love KakaIru, but it isn't even my favorite pairing--TsuJira is--and obviously I like NaruSaku, or I wouldn't be here.)

Conversely, I don't see guys getting into shoujo series (or whatever has appropriate subtext) for the yuri factor. I imagine they find the subject matter pretty boring. A lot of them seem to get into series like Haruhi Suzumiya because of the MOE factor--they find the girls cute or appealing, but it seems like they tend to go straight for the hentai titles when they're a-questing for pr0n. Plenty of hardcore yuri in that arena.

I think I'll quit there, since I can only have a "serious" fandom debate for so long until I start just cracking up over the absurdity of it all. It's fanfiction, for god's sake.

Something I neglected to touch on earlier:

There is a REASON people who don't know about the series except through fanfiction assume the yaoi is canon, and can be violently defensive when this is proven wrong.

If people like this actually exist, they're idiots. And:

The significant majority of Naruto fanfiction is BAD fanfiction.

Fixed.

[desaix]

I certainly won't get into the merits of Animerica's study, save to say the majority of the fanfiction circles I travelled in when I first got into fanfiction (the first FFML and RAAC, primarily, up until the 'Rise of FF.Net,' which were producing roughly 95% of anime fanfiction prior to 2000) were almost three to one male. It was when Rurouni Kenshin became popular and the fandoms discovered ff.net that the first 'flood' of fangirl fanfic authors came to be, and even they weren't quite into the yaoi thing as much as the het fandom for 'Aoshi\Misao.' I think it's more of a case of by-series as to which has more males or females in fanfiction, and it doesn't seem to make sense sometimes -- Ranma, Slayers, Sailor Moon (I know, I'm confused too), and Evangelion were, and for the most part still are, dominated by male authors. Dragonball Z, Inu Yasha, and a couple others appear fairly balanced. Naruto, Gundam Wing (huh?), Weiss Krauz, and Kenshin appear female-dominated. Since Animerica would predominantly poll fans of Ranma, IY, DBZ, and so forth, yes, it probably would skew the results more male. However, I find the 'fanfiction is predominantly written by yaoi fangirls' crowd to primarily be those who hang out with yaoi fangirls.

I will say, as I've said before, that the balance in Naruto is getting SIGNIFICANTLY better. There are now 200 pages for Sakura, as you said (and, by the way, the highest for any girl but Sakura is 30. You have at least four male characters who each have three digits in the number of their pages). However, back when I got into the Naruto fandom two years ago, there were 30 pages of het fanfiction of any pairing, total, and just under six hundred pages of yaoi fanfiction in Naruto (fifty of which were devoted to SasuNaru alone, hence more SasuNaru fanfiction then all het fanfiction combined). First impressions, and all that, so all your 'random sampling' tells me is that the yaoi fangirls may have exhausted themselves and it's allowing the het writers to start catching up.

FF.net is a complete joke, yes, but the options are... limited. There are a few other places (certain livejournal communities, mediaminer, aff.net, TONFA, the fanfic archive here), but they either house a very minute number of fanfics that fail to fill the pallet (like here and many livejournal communities) or share the same problems as ff.net does, only with a smaller base of fics to draw from (TONFA, mediaminer, aff.net, and many other livejournal communities). There has been no mass migration out of ff.net, like there was with fictionalley, and I'll point out that fictionalley has many of the same problems as ff.net does.

And yes, people like that actually exist. I was relatively late (by my standards) entering the Naruto fandom because certain people of that ilk scared me off of the series very early on.

Also, it's not just 'Naruto' fanfiction that's bad fanfiction. It's the significant majority of ALL fandoms Fanfiction which is bad fanfiction. But that's only because of Sturgeon's Law... which people aren't quite sure how to apply, when considering places like fanfiction.net.

Sturgeon's Law (if you are unfamiliar with it) states that '90% of everything is crap.' Unfortunately, this is taken WELL out of context when applied to fanfiction.

See, Sturgeon was referring particularly to published fiction. However... there are layers upon layers BEFORE fiction becomes published which sort out the 'good' crap from the bad crap. (The numbers below come from Sam Blate, a professor of Creative Writing at the University of Maryland in Shady Grove\Montgomery County Community College and the former supervising editor of the Carolinian literary magazine)

First, there are the 90% of people who submit bad copy to the publisher. This is the stuff where it's handwritten in pencil, on paper that's unreadable, damaged in shipping, etc. Tossed out unread. Consider this the people who submit fanfiction that's improperly formatted, if you must have a direct comparison, but really it's the 90% of people who just are too stupid to figure out how to get a manuscript safely to the publisher, so you can just guess how much crap gets eliminated here.

Then there are the 90% of the remainder who are eliminated outright, because they are submitting the wrong type of material to be publisher -- people who submit hard science fiction to harlequin romance, for example, or who submit fanfiction to someone who doesn't have the rights to publish that series (Sometimes fanfiction IS requested and the publisher has the rights, so I have to make that distinction -- two recent examples I can think of involve Baen Books, a sci-fi publisher which publishes 'The Grantville Gazette,' an anthology of fanfiction in the 163x series by Eric Flint, and which published a small collection of Posleen Series fanfiction in the appendix of one of John Ringo's Posleen Series books). Consider this those people who don't seem to understand the series their writing the fanfiction in (which happens all too often).

Only after that are actual quality considerations made. First, grammar and spelling eliminates 90% of the remaining again. Consistant structure -- 90% again. Good, solid plot from beginning to end -- 90%once more. FINALLY, the publisher decides if he LIKES the manuscript -- which eliminates about 50% of the stories out there.

And only AFTER that filtration process should Sturgeon's Law be applied. So, that's all but 90% of 50% of 90% of 90% of 90% of 90% of 90% are crap, in terms of published fiction.

Fanfiction isn't published. Therefore, Sturgeon's Law saws that only 0.00005% of fanfiction should be anything but crap.

Which means that ff.net isn't doing too bad, at all, because I could swear it's only about 0.0005% of fanfiction off of ff.net that's crap....

[MonkeysTotallyRock]

dude, you've given us a lot of information and opinions on ff.net, but what's your opinion on yaoi?

[desaix]

I've already given you my opinion on yaoi -- it's overdone. I also think it's harder to do and keep most of the characters (some exceptions like Haku, Orochimaru, etc.) in character. Finally, I don't particularly like it, but that's an issue of taste, just as I don't like Sasusaku or NaruHina.

But we'd already covered that.

[Zylia]

My opinion on yaoi, excuse my wording but nothing good is coming to mind, is that much of it is a lot of down right hypocritical crap. If you want to write a story about band members falling in love with one another, or jocks getting it on that is fine but why put in characters that already have their own worlds? Its just better to go off and write your own story instead of using someone elses characters.

About the hypocrite thing a lot of fans of yaoi seem to claim that their art or stories are artistic while in reality its porn in a frilly disguise. I mean most of the male characters turn out to be very feminine looking in fan pictures. Naruto is very much both the traditional yet untraditional manga super boy. He's got large expressive eyes, spiky hair and is short. At the same time he is also very much the boy by being a peeping tom but then being very embarrassed when someone brings his perversion up. Yet there is also a good fraction of the fan art out there which makes him look like a girl. I know he has the sexy no jutsu, but that is used for dirty fighting and I'm talking about the very male Naruto version looking feminine.

What I am trying to say is that all the tangents you get in Japanese comic books about male friendships are just that. They are men who form bonds with one another. Just because they are friends doesn't mean they are inclined to homosexuality, but then you get these fans screaming at the top of their lungs that characters are really gay. It kind of reminds me about that comment that Opera Winfry made about her and a friend she is supposed to be a lesbian with or some crap. They share a very deep bond, but they aren't into each other sexually and there just doesn't seem to be a name for same sex relationships any more (that aren't sexual), and they are automatically dubbed as homosexuality.

[MonkeysTotallyRock]

oh. sorry desaix. i missed that. ''^^ super long posts... well, that's a rather strong opinion zylia. one quick question.

Just because they are friends doesn't mean they are inclined to homosexuality

isn't that the point of all fanfiction? it's to write a fiction based on a show, etc. but somethind different happening? i understand your other points, but this invalid. if that was the case, we shouldn't have FC's (fan clubs.) like H&E. just cuz naruto had a crush on sakura, it doesn't mean they would get married. so should that stop people from making narusaku FC and fanfics? come on, it's not people raid streets and have protests saying naruto is indeed gay or something. it's a possibility that could happen -- if the fic has a plausible plot and good IC characters, etc. so i understand your other points, but this one makes no sense.

[Zylia]

Good point, I guess I should have reworded it better. The problem that I see with most yaoi fanfiction is that most of it isn't believable. They don't give a plausable excuse for a character being gay in world or out of world. Not that you have to go through the process of a back story, but I would like seeing the character have the same personality and not be tottaly turned around this way and that. I go for the same in het of fanfiction, and I only really like an out of character story when it is humor.

[MonkeysTotallyRock]

i agree. it is hard to make a good yaoi plot for most people, mostly cuz i just don't see naruto OR sasuke being submissive. their agression is what got them to be rivals/friends in the first place, so why would they stop? it's impossible. other pairings may work if the author is good -- kakashiiruka could imagine happening, partly cuz they're kind of opposite, but even still, iruka hates kakashi for putting naruto through the chuunin exam. so yeah...

[Vespar]

Let's just agree that everyone has their own preferences and we should all just band together to leave illiterate fanfiction behind and also strive for a more original horizon!

I mean, character x inanimate objects looks more or less untouched!

[desaix]

I mean, character x inanimate objects looks more or less untouched!

Well, in Naruto, at least... *mutters something about Kaoru from Kenshin and a Sakaba sword in a lemon....*

[gamerman_007]

1 - "Naruto is raped by vicious older shinobi" fic

.........

....There are bad people on FF.net




Yuri = Need more of
Yaoi = Need less of

[MonkeysTotallyRock]

haha. is it bad that i'm a fan of both?
*cowers in fear*

[Nate River]

I mean, character x inanimate objects looks more or less untouched!

Well, in Naruto, at least... *mutters something about Kaoru from Kenshin and a Sakaba sword in a lemon....*

Don't forget Inuyasha....there's a fic pairing Ah-Un and Kagome's bike....and while not a lemon its pretty clear what happen. There is also one about Jakotsu and his hairpin.

[Vespar]

I mean, character x inanimate objects looks more or less untouched!

Well, in Naruto, at least... *mutters something about Kaoru from Kenshin and a Sakaba sword in a lemon....*

Don't forget Inuyasha....there's a fic pairing Ah-Un and Kagmoe's bike....and while not a lemon its pretty clear what happen. There is also one about Jakotsu and his hairpin.

Though I've never actually seen Kisama x Samehada, I have read Hinata x Mirror.
If you look beneath the beneath, you'll get why it's weirder than it is at first glance.

[Kenhime]

I've seen a Sasuke X Naruto-tranformed Fuuma Shuriken fanfic somewhere. Now isn't that interesting?

That...was an excellent debate, I have to say. It gave me more insight into the workings of fanfiction, so thank you, everyone, for your contributions to this thread.

As for my take on yaoi, I like yaoi not for the Uke-Seme factor...that's the one thing that gets me twitchy. It's the aggression factor that's appealing.

As for my take on yuri, I really liked the anime music video that was done on Utena the Movie that had implications of yuri in it. ...Like that's anything I could base an argument or viewpoint on.

Hm, that's all I have to say. Surprising that I'm not saying much in such an interesting debate as this, but seeing that everything I wanted addressed has been laid out and beaten to death.

[Zylia]

The only thing that bothers me about yaoi is that some fans are very insistent about it. This is to the point where it reaches beyond the point of fanfiction. I find the yaoi fandom frightening myself because when it comes to seme/uke, you have some fans screaming this is what homosexuality is.

[MonkeysTotallyRock]

True, but that's just the people fault, not the yaoi concept itself.
still, don't you need a softened version of uke-seme system in yuuri as well? in every relationship i think people sometimes becoem dominant or not or trade places. so the difference with yoai is that both dominant and passive are same gender, and that people take it to an extereme -- for instance sasuke being a slave driver dominant. that's the main problem i see with yaoi.

[Sono]

I find Yaoi and Yurri a disrespect to some characters. As I said, fiction is nice to an extent. I also don't think Kishimoto would like to come on FF.net to find out that more then half of his creation has been turned to yaoi. Also, because Naruto finds Sasuke as a brother figure does not mean that he's gay. Sigh.

[Lackey_h]

fact: Uke and Seme are bullsh**, nothing more.

It is rare, RARE, to find a person who is totally submissive like Uke are usually portrayed - and by totally i mean 'all the goddamn time'.

What's much more likely is for the balance of dominance and submission to shift dependin on situations - the most common being outer and inner dominance. Outer being that which is shown in public - In a HET pairing this is usually the man - while Inner is that in private or in the householed - in a HET pairing usually the woman.

Also, Uke ... good god people... just because someone is the 'submissive' of a duo, it doesn't mean they suddenly turn into simpering wusses who need hugs and attention every five goddam seconds lest they collapse under the weight of the world.

Likewise, not all Seme have to be arrogant bastards and/or total playboys who like to screw everything in sight everywhere, anywhere, however and anytime the want.

Geez... Most Yaoi - and all that uses the Uke/Seme theory - is homosexuality written by people who have likely never met, spoken to or in some cases probably never actually seen a real homosexual couple.

Come to that, most Yaoi is written by such people period.

Besides, gay ninja don't make bebbies. No bebbies = no new ninja. I'm pretty sure Konoha would have something to say about that.

[smilebomb]

Personally, I am a fan of yaoi. However, in a fanfic it really depends on the writer if it is good or not. I know some people who have been turned away from it because of bad writing.